Author Topic: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World  (Read 2933 times)

Seadog

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Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« on: May 10, 2018, 07:26:57 AM »
I'm about 2/3rds through this audio book and had to make a thread about it since it applies so succinctly to the MMM crowd.

At the very start it talks about some guy investigating call-centre turn over rates in his employees, and he discovers that people who found the job ad through firefox vs IE/safari, had lower turnover, better caller satisfaction, and just excelled in almost any metric.

His reasoning for this was the to get firefox, you had to challenge the default browser assumption pushed on you by Microsoft/Apple. This speaks to the sort of attitude that doesn't just accept things at face value and broadcast to the much broader sense, are far more free-thinking , creative, and independent.

In order to pursue the FIRE game I think you need to fall into this category. Another forum I frequent redflagdeals which seems to have a deal getting slant, but is a much more 'middle of the pack' demographic I think. Lots of threads about breaking the 50k salary barrier, week long getaways to all inclusives in Cuba, gov't jobs, chasing higher pay regardless of other factors, and how to get the best rate when changing over $40 worth of USD. One thread about a guy considering quitting for long term travel (ie a mini-retirement frequently bandied about here) and some people replying about how reckless that would be and how no employer would look at them after such irresponsibility.

Something struck me as a common theme. Acting out the societal default and referring back to it when challenged. Buying a house instead renting because "that's what responsible people do, renting is throwing away money", and never even questioned if there was a better way, or if it was a good deal. For instance here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/house-investment-wealth-1.3716641

When this couple challenged that, it became one of the most commented on stories ever on CBC, and most comments were filled with vitriol about how they were wrong and irresponsible.

Trying to find good exchange rates but ignoring that on such a trivial sum the difference wont matter. The one that pushed me for making a thread was a guy saying how responsible he is since he's almost fully funded his RRSP/TFSA, but has no idea how much is there, where it is, or whats going on with it. Work just takes it off and he bumped it up. He's doing better than average, and therefore doesn't question the details, but with just a few more steps he could even be on his way to FIRE.

It also touches on the fact that you need to be willing to challenge social norms, not fear embarrassing yourself, and I think a good number of folks here fall into that category. I always knew I was a bit different and marched to a different beat(along with many others here I think), and this book really brings it home that it's a good thing.

Gondolin

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 07:42:53 AM »
Well, it's always nice to read material that congratulates you on your pre-existing self-perception.


dcheesi

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 08:35:57 AM »
Interesting. So to excel in what by all accounts is one of the most regimented, repetitive, and mind-numbingly boring jobs out there, you need to be a creative non-conformist?

Bucksandreds

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 08:49:27 AM »
I agree with OP that it behooves the thinker to not conform to "norms" unless they make sense. Not sure why the first 2 posts are insults

Eric

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 11:32:57 AM »
I'm surprised to learn that *not* using IE makes me a non-conformist. 

But what's not surprising is that most people don't ever take a critical look at anything in their lives.  They just go with the flow and are afraid to rock the boat.

dcheesi

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 11:38:42 AM »
I agree with OP that it behooves the thinker to not conform to "norms" unless they make sense. Not sure why the first 2 posts are insults
Not intended as an insult; it's just genuinely interesting to see such a counter-intuitive observation/hypothesis.

While some forms of technical support might offer ways to leverage creativity, call centers in general have a reputation for being all about conversation scripts and strict quantitative metrics, not creativity or independent thought. I think the conventional wisdom would predict that non-conformists would be the first to leave such a situation, not the last.

Seadog

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2018, 12:26:07 PM »
I'm surprised to learn that *not* using IE makes me a non-conformist. 

But what's not surprising is that most people don't ever take a critical look at anything in their lives.  They just go with the flow and are afraid to rock the boat.

It's not so much the conformity as it is the fact you needed to take an active role to change it. It's a minor thing, but scales up to the same mentality applied to other areas. In order to get Firefox, you had to challenge a given setup even though there may have been nothing glaringly wrong. Is good enough, good enough for you? Or do you want to invest a bit of effort to get the best browser for your needs. Do you take the same attitude to your clients?

The specific thing he was initially looking at was employee retention, and like every job there is a gray area where you've met the minimum threshold that no one can say "you aren't doing your job", but not at the limit of what you potentially could have done.

Well, it's always nice to read material that congratulates you on your pre-existing self-perception.


Not sure where the saltiness is coming from, just figured it was a book applicable and useful for the FIRE crowds. But to each their own and hope the smugness works out for you!

undercover

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2018, 01:44:25 PM »
Interesting. So to excel in what by all accounts is one of the most regimented, repetitive, and mind-numbingly boring jobs out there, you need to be a creative non-conformist?

Yeah that didn't make sense to me either...doing well at a call center job is the definition of conforming.

Well, it's always nice to read material that congratulates you on your pre-existing self-perception.

Not sure where the saltiness is coming from, just figured it was a book applicable and useful for the FIRE crowds. But to each their own and hope the smugness works out for you!

He's half-joking. It's like taking a personality test and patting yourself on the back because that's just who you are and you're proud. It's like...you already know who you are, how does someone telling you that you are that thing help? I think he's also hinting at the fact that this is a very self-selecting group of people made mostly of engineer-types and general thinkers. I also like to think he's suggesting he is more humble than to actually think someone who changes the world is somehow better than someone who doesn't.

It's in everyone's nature to be rebellious and crave change. Some people are just smarter and more resourceful than others. Some of it's learned...some of it's innate.

That said, it's great to encourage critical thinking and challenge people to question reality and it's something that isn't done enough. Again, I think many people naturally do this and some need told to do it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 01:53:42 PM by undercover »

Gondolin

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2018, 07:22:43 AM »
Quote
He's half-joking

You're (mostly) right! The larger point is that Adam Grant knows he can sell a lot of books by being Malcolm Gladwell 2.0 and making grandiose claims about having discovered a secret to human behavior. Never mind that he doesn't share the data and that the data that does exist came from non-replicatible, small N studies - what matters is making a big claim and then couching it in enough speculation to fill a book.

Frankly, this idea that what browser you use is representative of your general behavior and determinative of job performance sounds like exactly the sort of "grab a correlation and call it a causation so I can get published" thinking that got the whole psych field into its current replication crisis.

Secondly, Adam Grant knows he can sell even more books if he makes sure that his thesis implies that there are a set of heretofore unknown traits that makes someone special or "better" than the "average" person. If he makes the ancedotes bland enough and the criteria vague enough, he can guarantee that 90% of his readers will walk away identifying as "non-conformists" and congratulating themselves for secretly being part of the master race.

No salt was intended at the OP. I just roll my eyes reflexively when another of these pop psych "how to succed at being more X, according to a slew of curated anecdotes and cherry picked research studies" books comes out - especially when they undermine the public perception of actual psychology research.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 11:44:07 AM by Gondolin »

Seadog

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2018, 09:17:16 AM »
Quote
He's half-joking

You're (mostly) right! The larger point is that Adam Grant knows he can sell a lot of books by being Malcolm Gladwell 2.0 and making grandiose claims about having discovered a secret to human behavior. Never mind that he doesn't share the data and that the data that does exist came from non-replicatible, small N studies - what matters is making a big claim and then couching it in enough speculation to fill a book.

Frankly, this idea that what browser you use is representative of your general behavior and determinative of job performance sounds like exactly the sort of "grab a correlation and call it a causation so I can get published" thinking that got the whole psych field into its current replication crisis.

Secondly, Adam Grant knows he can sell even more books if he makes sure that his thesis implies that there are a set of heretofore unknown traits that makes someone special or "better" than the "average" person. If he makes the ancedotes bland enough and the criteria vague enough, he can guarantee that 90% of his readers will walk away identifying as "non-conformists" and congratulating themselves for secretly being part of the master race.

No salt was intended at the OP. I just roll my eyes reflexively when another of these pop psych "how to succed at being more
  • , according to a slew of curated anecdotes and cherry picked research studies" books comes out - especially when they undermine the public perception of actual psychology research.
What?! You don't like Malcolm Gladwell either?!

I find these sorts of books which point out these kinds of corollaries fascinating. I don't think it implies causation, in that if you start using X browser you'll be more successful, Just in that people who fall on this end of what ever spectrum tend to have certain associated tendencies.

Similarly since we're on a finance forum, I bet if you sorted people by how much credit card interest they pay, how many fancy lattes they've bought in the last year, or a ratio of living space to people owned/rented, you could also get some very interesting corollaries between net worth or a host of other factors such as likeliness to be on the MMM forum. Conversely, it doesn't mean if you start visiting the forum absence all else, your net worth will increase.  Kind of like the old ice cream sales cause drownings fallacy. 

I also put it out there since I think it applies to the larger group here. To *not* go into debt, buy as much house as the bank throws at you, and save beyond the 10% salary which society tells us is already the paragon of responsibility, that requires challenging what a lot of seemingly smart people tell you.

DS

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2018, 09:34:07 AM »
No salt was intended at the OP. I just roll my eyes reflexively when another of these pop psych "how to succed at being more x, according to a slew of curated anecdotes and cherry picked research studies" books comes out - especially when they undermine the public perception of actual psychology research.

Funnily enough I just assumed this book was written by Gladwell before looking into it. Just some adorable stories.

mathlete

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 09:50:54 AM »
Something struck me as a common theme. Acting out the societal default and referring back to it when challenged. Buying a house instead renting because "that's what responsible people do, renting is throwing away money", and never even questioned if there was a better way, or if it was a good deal. For instance here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/house-investment-wealth-1.3716641

When this couple challenged that, it became one of the most commented on stories ever on CBC, and most comments were filled with vitriol about how they were wrong and irresponsible.

Not to fight the battle of Frugalwoods again, but I've read these people's story. The article, in the main, is lazy and untruthful. They didn't get rich by eschewing the standard of buying a home to build wealth. They got rich through mega high incomes. But every blogger needs a "thing" to make their story seem relatable. Everyone can "not buy a house", so that became their "thing". It's achievable. It's relatable. Mathematically inclined people see though, that the "thing" is seldom as important as the blogger makes it seem. It's just a new way to dress up decades old advice of making a lot of money and spending on what is truly important to you. Which is fine.

I point this out because I think that non-conformity is a similar dressing up. Non-conformity sounds nicer because the truth (go to school and get a job making lots of money) is boring.

mathlete

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2018, 10:10:23 AM »
Quote
He's half-joking

You're (mostly) right! The larger point is that Adam Grant knows he can sell a lot of books by being Malcolm Gladwell 2.0 and making grandiose claims about having discovered a secret to human behavior. Never mind that he doesn't share the data and that the data that does exist came from non-replicatible, small N studies - what matters is making a big claim and then couching it in enough speculation to fill a book.

Frankly, this idea that what browser you use is representative of your general behavior and determinative of job performance sounds like exactly the sort of "grab a correlation and call it a causation so I can get published" thinking that got the whole psych field into its current replication crisis.

Secondly, Adam Grant knows he can sell even more books if he makes sure that his thesis implies that there are a set of heretofore unknown traits that makes someone special or "better" than the "average" person. If he makes the ancedotes bland enough and the criteria vague enough, he can guarantee that 90% of his readers will walk away identifying as "non-conformists" and congratulating themselves for secretly being part of the master race.

No salt was intended at the OP. I just roll my eyes reflexively when another of these pop psych "how to succed at being more
  • , according to a slew of curated anecdotes and cherry picked research studies" books comes out - especially when they undermine the public perception of actual psychology research.
Gondolin sounds like a really smart dude.

Adam Grant should profile him for his non-conformity to the cult of pop-science reading.

MrMoogle

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2018, 11:06:08 AM »
I wasn't thinking of myself when I read the title.  I conform in most ways.  In fact frugality is conforming, just to a previous generation or two.  I mostly consider myself old fashioned.

I was thinking it was going to talk about the Elon Musks of the world.  The problem with that is only 0.001% become Elon Musk, the rest eventually conform or become destitute. 

Most mustachians probably conform publicly, but less so privately. 

Maybe I'm not understand the definition of non-conformist. 

Gondolin

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Re: Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2018, 11:55:26 AM »
Quote
Adam Grant should profile him for his non-conformity to the cult of pop-science reading.

Wooooah.....so meta. Mind blown.