Author Topic: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish  (Read 7241 times)

Gerard

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Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« on: February 25, 2016, 04:22:44 PM »
Various announcements this week: free university if your family earns under $50K/yr, expanded transit, beer/wine in more regular stores,  faster routes to citizenship, Prime Minister to walk in Toronto Pride parade, more free vaccination, cheaper hospital parking (hello MMM).

Come on up! Don't wait for the Trump coronation!

FIRE47

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2016, 04:33:06 PM »
Yep and European level debts along with it and more taxes to boot, care to pay a carbon tax on top of our already overpriced gas and on top of your heating bill? The Wynne liberals are out of control

Koogie

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2016, 04:41:11 PM »
Yep and European level debts along with it and more taxes to boot, care to pay a carbon tax on top of our already overpriced gas and on top of your heating bill? The Wynne liberals are out of control

+1000          amazing how many people in this country think things are "free" because "the government" pays for them..

Gerard

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2016, 04:44:17 PM »
Yep and European level debts along with it and more taxes to boot, care to pay a carbon tax on top of our already overpriced gas and on top of your heating bill? The Wynne liberals are out of control

Yeah, I'm happy about that carbon tax! Wish we'd done it sooner. Now I want Toronto to increase my property tax and use the money to fund the TTC.

And we already had those debt levels...

bobechs

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2016, 04:53:45 PM »
Yep and European level debts along with it and more taxes to boot, care to pay a carbon tax on top of our already overpriced gas and on top of your heating bill? The Wynne liberals are out of control

+1000          amazing how many people in this country think things are "free" because "the government" pays for them..

Maybe Muleshoe Texas will run a promo to lure disaffected Canadians to relocate, once the Trumpian millennium becomes manifest.

FIRE47

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 04:55:18 PM »
Yep and European level debts along with it and more taxes to boot, care to pay a carbon tax on top of our already overpriced gas and on top of your heating bill? The Wynne liberals are out of control

Yeah, I'm happy about that carbon tax! Wish we'd done it sooner. Now I want Toronto to increase my property tax and use the money to fund the TTC.

And we already had those debt levels...

You're free to donate if serious (not sure if you're being sarcastic). Not going to launch into a tirade in case you're kidding

Gerard

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2016, 05:09:12 PM »
Yeah, I'm happy about that carbon tax! Wish we'd done it sooner. Now I want Toronto to increase my property tax and use the money to fund the TTC.
You're free to donate if serious (not sure if you're being sarcastic). Not going to launch into a tirade in case you're kidding

Mostly serious, I think. I think I see the carbon tax as just one more "sin tax", one that most of us can reduce through optimization. And I'm not fallin' for that "donate" idea any more than Warren Buffett did! The TTC fares are only going down if everybody pays higher property taxes. I'm just letting folks know that if that does happen, I'm onside and happy to pay my share.

A tirade's not gonna help either of us much... I'll stipulate that I understand that some smart good people think my viewpoint is rubbish, and if you're up for stipulating the same in reverse, I'm good!

<edit: fixed quotations>
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 06:36:26 PM by Gerard »

FIRE47

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2016, 05:15:56 PM »
Yeah, I'm happy about that carbon tax! Wish we'd done it sooner. Now I want Toronto to increase my property tax and use the money to fund the TTC.
You're free to donate if serious (not sure if you're being sarcastic). Not going to launch into a tirade in case you're kidding

Mostly serious, I think. I think I see the carbon tax as just one more "sin tax", one that most of us can reduce through optimization. And I'm not fallin' for that "donate" idea any more than Warren Buffett did! The TTC fares are only going down if everybody pays higher property taxes. I'm just letting folks know that if that does happen, I'm onside and happy to pay my share.

A tirade's not gonna help either of us much... I'll stipulate that I understand that some smart good people think my viewpoint is rubbish, and if you're up for stipulating the same in reverse, I'm good!
[/quote]

Yea I'll spare you the arguments since I'm sure you've heard them all before. With respect to the carbon tax in particular though I really have a problem with it applying to home heating. What's the alternative? Natural gas is already basically the most efficient form of heating and people can't really change their behaviour much with regards to this- it's just another "Revenue tool" as they have been called as far as I'm concerned.

Gerard

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 05:21:23 PM »
With respect to the carbon tax in particular though I really have a problem with it applying to home heating. What's the alternative? Natural gas is already basically the most efficient form of heating and people can't really change their behaviour much with regards to this- it's just another "Revenue tool" as they have been called as far as I'm concerned.

I see your point. I mean, there are substantial reductions possible there, too, in terms of insulation, sweaters, tiny homes, bla bla. But nothing as all-in as going from a car to a bike, say. Unless you're Bakari and don't heat your home at all!

Sarnia Saver

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 05:47:40 PM »
I don't like when they arbitrarily make a line in the sand for income in regards to government assistance.  It penalizes people who hover over the threshold.  If one year you are making 49k salary and the government pays for your kids 8k/year tuition, then next year you get a 2.5% raise and are now making 50,225, but no longer get government assistance on the 8k.

Personally, I don't mind any taxes that tax consumption, carbon tax included.  I also think it was silly of them to ever drop the GST by 2%, but now whichever government raises that back to the 15% we paid for years will be commiting political suicide.

Free vaccinations for children to prevent diseases which kill kids is a no brainer, and a PM walking in a Pride parade shouldn't warrant a discussion.

Gerard

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2016, 06:04:40 PM »
I don't like when they arbitrarily make a line in the sand for income in regards to government assistance.  It penalizes people who hover over the threshold.  If one year you are making 49k salary and the government pays for your kids 8k/year tuition, then next year you get a 2.5% raise and are now making 50,225, but no longer get government assistance on the 8k.

I think they heard you this time; I believe they plan stepped clawbacks above $50K, kind of like the OAS.

With you on all the other stuff I didn't quote.

sleepyguy

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2016, 12:03:00 AM »
Interesting... by the time both my kids are ready to go to University we probably will be on a VERY low income (but living well :))

I guess we can take back our RESP, lol.  Here is the summary below...

Here’s what the changes will mean for some of those who qualify:

University student living at home, tuition $6,160, family income of $45,000

Total expenses: $12,608
Total assistance: $9,607 (down $1)
Grant: $6,860 (up $3,109)
Loan: $2,747 (down $3,110)

University student living at home, tuition $6,160, family income of $40,000, scholarship worth $5,000

Total expenses: $12,600
Total assistance: $7,837
Grant: $6,050 (up $2,299)
Loan: $1,787 (down $1,079)

University student living in residence, tuition $6,160, family income of $80,000

Total expenses: $18,000
Total assistance: $15,000 (up $2,257)
Grant: $6,042 (up $699)
Loan: $8,958 (up $1,558)
Parents no longer expected to contribute

College student living at home, tuition $2,768, family income of $40,000

Total expenses: $8,900
Total assistance: $5,914 (same)
Grant: $5,383 (up $2,612)
Loan: $531 (down $2,612)

College student living at home, tuition $2,768, family income of $80,000

Total expenses: $8,900
Total assistance: $5,914 (up $1,533)
Grant: $3,468 (up $1,827)
Loan: $2,446 (up $294)
Parents no longer expected to contribute

2Cent

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2016, 01:21:38 AM »
Yea I'll spare you the arguments since I'm sure you've heard them all before. With respect to the carbon tax in particular though I really have a problem with it applying to home heating. What's the alternative? Natural gas is already basically the most efficient form of heating and people can't really change their behavior much with regards to this- it's just another "Revenue tool" as they have been called as far as I'm concerned.
Taxes need to come from somewhere. Putting taxes on wasteful behavior instead of say property stimulates people to live more efficiently, which in turn helps keep the price of gas down. Of course there are alternatives to gas heating. Wood fire in a fire place. Solar boilers. Heat pumps. Even just insulating your house better or living smaller will reduce your gas need. Wearing a sweater instead of putting the temperature high. And there are many more creative ways to reduce your gas usage.
 
Gas heating is only there since the 1950s.
But if gas is dead cheap, no one will care to save it.

FIRE47

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2016, 04:37:06 AM »
Yea I'll spare you the arguments since I'm sure you've heard them all before. With respect to the carbon tax in particular though I really have a problem with it applying to home heating. What's the alternative? Natural gas is already basically the most efficient form of heating and people can't really change their behavior much with regards to this- it's just another "Revenue tool" as they have been called as far as I'm concerned.
Taxes need to come from somewhere. Putting taxes on wasteful behavior instead of say property stimulates people to live more efficiently, which in turn helps keep the price of gas down. Of course there are alternatives to gas heating. Wood fire in a fire place. Solar boilers. Heat pumps. Even just insulating your house better or living smaller will reduce your gas need. Wearing a sweater instead of putting the temperature high. And there are many more creative ways to reduce your gas usage.
 
Gas heating is only there since the 1950s.
But if gas is dead cheap, no one will care to save it.

Sure... There aren't more wasteful and polluting behaviours to tax than the heating of a personal residence in the north of the planet? Ontario is but a fart in the wind compared to global pollution and even our major polluters are all getting a free pass for the most part.  Not sure where you're from but in Ontario people already have the highest electricity rates in Northa America due to a mismanaged public system and pay into the 50% range by the time you include sales tax and property tax etc. When does it reach a tipping point when enough is enough? There are already 15 cents of gas tax per litre now they are adding another 5 cents or so. These are extremely regressive taxes, do you thing anyone but those on the fringe will be affected? Do you think theyre thinking "I can barely afford to eat this month lets reinsulte the attic? It will pay for itself in 10 years and negate this new charge"



I have a feeling I may be a minority here on this site as it would be a world utopia wouldn't it if the government just taxed us to the point  no one could consume anything at all?




Gerard

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2016, 05:33:52 AM »
Okay, some of this is tirade, which I promised not to get into, but let me at least have a go at some of your statements of fact.

There aren't more wasteful and polluting behaviours to tax than the heating of a personal residence in the north of the planet?

Well, they can only tax (and try to influence) things that go on in their own province. And fuel burnt is fuel burnt, wherever on the planet it happens.

in Ontario people already have the highest electricity rates in North America due to a mismanaged public system

I'm not sure this is true. A quick online search finds a Hydro-Quebec report that puts Toronto about in the middle of North American cities, much cheaper than Boston or NYC but more expensive than the mismanaged public system in Quebec.
https://issuu.com/hydroquebec/docs/comp_2015_en?e=1151578/31242512

and pay into the 50% range by the time you include sales tax and property tax etc.
If you earn $150,000 a year in Ontario, your total tax rate is 31%:
http://www.ey.com/CA/en/Services/Tax/Tax-Calculators-2016-Personal-Tax
With that kind of income, presumably people can afford the property taxes and other consumption taxes that would bring them up to 50%.

Do you think theyre thinking "I can barely afford to eat this month lets reinsulate the attic? It will pay for itself in 10 years and negate this new charge"

Point taken. Consumption taxes can be regressive. A lot of jurisdictions get around that with rebates for low income earners:
http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB/Consumers/Consumer+Protection/Help+for+Low-Income+Energy+Consumers

And even low income earners have some control over their heating costs, by moving into multiple-unit housing or hitting up the Salvation Army for a $5 sweater. I've dropped my heating costs a lot since finding this site. About half my savings did require an investment (a $60 programmable thermostat), but the other half involved sweaters, blocking drafts, and spending more time in bed.

2Cent

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2016, 05:48:27 AM »
I have a feeling I may be a minority here on this site as it would be a world utopia wouldn't it if the government just taxed us to the point  no one could consume anything at all?
Obviously the government needs some taxes. Why not use the tax collection to stimulate good behavior? Would you prefer a flat tax of the same amount you pay now regardless of your situation. At least now you have some influence.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2016, 07:17:35 AM »
A lot of the discussion so far has assumed urban living.  Just a couple of comments.  I am sure many who have posted on the rural living thread would echo these.
 
Electricity - prices vary over the province.  I am not in a city, I am billed rural low density, and I pay a lot for hydro.  See parts of my bill below.  I'm retired, home all day most days, so my peak and shoulder use are higher than if I were still working.  I feel for a rural SAHM with pre-schoolers or school-age kids, she is home, they are home, there are meals to cook and baths to give and all the things that use electricity.
Plus re heating, this has been an easy winter overall, not like last year.  I heat with oil - the alternative is propane (not gas, no gas available here, that takes pipes) and propane is not as high-energy as gas.  Wood?  Wood is polluting too, just not a fossil fuel.  There are houses and farm houses around here with wood hot water heating, the boiler is in a separate building. That means going outside when it is super cold or really icy (like yesterday) to stoke the fire.  Around here there are lots of old homes, so there are limits to how efficient they can be made without spending huge amounts on insulation and windows and so on.  There were some government grants, not right now.

Carbon tax - depends on who is talking.  I read the Green Party platform (federal) a few years ago and they wanted it to be revenue neutral, lower taxes in other areas.  Let's face it, most consumption taxes are partly policy, look at the sin tax on alcohol and cigarettes.  Of course people take their sins seriously, we saw prohibition in the US and we have seen cigarette smuggling much more recently in Canada, so it is a balancing act - tax enough that people cut down consumption of things that TPTB think are bad for them but are legal, and not so high that smuggling becomes really rewarding.

Anyway, just my musings.
in Ontario people already have the highest electricity rates in North America due to a mismanaged public system
Point of Delivery: 10043160
Compare the electricity Number Average Daily Electricity Use (kWh) Average electricity you
you are using                       # of days     on-Peak   Mid-Peak   Off-Peak   used per day (kWh)
Jan 13, 2016 - Feb 11, 2016     29              3            2                8                   13
Dec 11, 2015 - Jan 13, 2016     33              3            3              11                   18
Nov 13, 2015 - Dec 11, 2015    28              3            2                8                   14
Oct 15, 2015 - Nov 13, 2015     29              3           3                 9                   15
Sep 15, 2015 - Oct 15, 2015     30              3            3              10                   16
Aug 14, 2015 - Sep 15, 2015    32              2            3              32                   38
Jan 14, 2015 - Feb 12, 2015     29              3            2               9                    14

Electricity: On-Peak: 94.3650 kWh @ 17.5000¢            $16.51
Electricity: Mid-Peak: 67.7688 kWh @ 12.8000¢             $8.67
Electricity: Off-Peak: 225.3654 kWh @ 8.3000¢            $18.71
Delivery                                                                  $65.02
Regulatory Charges                                                    $2.82
Debt Retirement Charge++                                         $0.00
HST (87086-5821-RT0001)                                       $14.52
Total of your electricity charges                               $126.25

So actual electricity = $43.89, or about 35% of my total bill.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 07:47:59 AM by RetiredAt63 »

FIRE47

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2016, 03:49:07 PM »
I have a feeling I may be a minority here on this site as it would be a world utopia wouldn't it if the government just taxed us to the point  no one could consume anything at all?
Obviously the government needs some taxes. Why not use the tax collection to stimulate good behavior? Would you prefer a flat tax of the same amount you pay now regardless of your situation. At least now you have some influence.

Right - I agree, but where is the limit? A limit has to exist at some point - obviously at 100% there is no economy left according to Econ 101 but at 0% there is no way to pay for public goods - at some point along the continuum it has to be enough - I would argue in Ontario it has to be getting close.



 You can be sure they will not be reducing taxes elsewhere now that they have found a new place to tax - otherwise I would agree with you  on the point on deciding where to tax- I barely drive compared to most and thus would then getting rewarded for my environmentally friendly behavior, as it is now I am just being less punished than the guy down the road.

This is of course ignoring the fact that food, goods and public transport will also be affected by fuel prices tax increases and thus it may be mostly unavoidable.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 03:50:47 PM by FIRE47 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Ontario/Canada gets more "European"-ish
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2016, 05:17:15 PM »
I don't feel overtaxed at all, and like Gerard would prefer higher propert taxes in Toronto if it meant better TTC service and infrastructure.