Is using Ridesharing (Uber/Lyft/etc.) Ethical?

[TreesBikesLove]

As more and more information comes out about the poor working conditions, instability, and below minimum wage earnings of ridesharing drivers has been released I want to ask all of you: Is using ridesharing services ethical?

Beyond ethical concerns, I have boycotted Uber for libertarian/free-market reasons. Uber rides are subsidized by their billions of dollars in VC funding; the true cost of each ride is not borne by the rider and free-market companies are forced to compete on uneven grounds. This argument seems to gain traction with my more conservative coworkers where the "unethical worker conditions" argument fails.

Subsidies by billionaires really undermines the typical "free-market, superior product at lower cost" rebuttal. Unethical working conditions carries weight with my more liberal coworkers.

Articles for reference:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/01/uber-lyft-driver-wages-median-report
http://horanaviation.com/uploads/Can_Uber_Ever_Deliver__1-5_.pdf

Rebuttals:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uber-wage-study/mit-study-that-found-low-pay-for-uber-drivers-to-be-revisited-idUSKCN1GF0RL
https://medium.com/uber-under-the-hood/an-analysis-of-ceeprs-paper-on-the-economics-of-ride-hailing-1c8bfbf1081d

[nick663]

No one is forcing the drivers to do it and I think the majority of your complaints could be applied to taxis as well.  I generally prefer public transit or rental bikes when I travel but sometimes that isn't realistic.

What is your alternative that is free of "ethical" concerns?

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

It's a strange choice of words to say Uber rides are "subsidized" by billionaires. Should I stop reading the LA Times because it is unprofitable to its shareholders and subscriptions are similarly "subsidized"? In the long run, the VC investments may or may not pay off but that is the private business of the VC backers to worry about.

[jlcnuke]

If every company with investors is "subsidized" then there aren't a lot of large companies that aren't subsidized... So I'll go with "I don't care" on that front. As for the "unethical" employment, the drivers do it voluntarily, so they're willing to do the job for the pay and the conditions. I'm not one to tell people that they shouldn't do what they want if it doesn't harm others. It doesn't harm me for them to work that job, so I'll keep using them and helping to put a few bucks in their pockets when I need a ride.

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[marty998]

If every company with investors is "subsidized" then there aren't a lot of large companies that aren't subsidized... So I'll go with "I don't care" on that front. As for the "unethical" employment, the drivers do it voluntarily, so they're willing to do the job for the pay and the conditions. I'm not one to tell people that they shouldn't do what they want if it doesn't harm others. It doesn't harm me for them to work that job, so I'll keep using them and helping to put a few bucks in their pockets when I need a ride.

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The drivers and passengers may do it willingly, but the real value of the service lies in the data collection. You can bet there is a script running in the background of your Uber app collecting all sorts of tidbits about you.

The actual driving and getting passengers around is a long way down the business priorities of these companies. That is what I find unethical.

[jlcnuke]

If every company with investors is "subsidized" then there aren't a lot of large companies that aren't subsidized... So I'll go with "I don't care" on that front. As for the "unethical" employment, the drivers do it voluntarily, so they're willing to do the job for the pay and the conditions. I'm not one to tell people that they shouldn't do what they want if it doesn't harm others. It doesn't harm me for them to work that job, so I'll keep using them and helping to put a few bucks in their pockets when I need a ride.

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The drivers and passengers may do it willingly, but the real value of the service lies in the data collection. You can bet there is a script running in the background of your Uber app collecting all sorts of tidbits about you.

The actual driving and getting passengers around is a long way down the business priorities of these companies. That is what I find unethical.

And I don't care about some company finding out that I get a ride home from a pool hall once a month or so... Lots of companies get a lot more in depth data collection about me that I similarly don't care about..

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[maizefolk]

Well the most recent data I could find was from 2016, where it sounds like Uber has ~2 billion unique rides and lost $2.6B. So call it a subsidy of ~$1.30 a ride. If you're worried about unfair competition, just impose a mental $2 tax each time you take an uber ride. When uber still seems like the best option knowing you're going to have to give away $2 to a random stranger (or light them on fire, or something), you're not letting your decisions be altered by the way Uber's pricing is subsidized by VCs.

As for the second issue, I tend to think that it's hard to have an ethical problem with voluntarily and informed transactions between  consenting adults. Otherwise we'd end up in the position of having to quiz the owner of the local bar before buying a beer about whether whatever profit he's turning actually works out to even minimum wage for all the unpaired hours he puts in every week.

[kaizen soze]

Uber and Lyft are solving a market failure problem: how to pair idle cars and drivers with passengers who have somewhere to be. All of these idle cars are a huge untapped resource. It's possible that there are market-distorting effects from the loss making nature of these businesses, but normally we wouldn't worry about that unless we thought someone was attempting to gain an unfair monopoly, and we have antitrust to deal with that. Otherwise it seems no different than any other internet business model which tend to operate in the red for a while.  And in any event, the problems that these companies solve seem to outweigh whatever problems are caused by market distorting effects.

Re the driver's well being, Uber may not be as good of a deal for drivers as it first appears superficially. And by all means spread the word on the true costs of driving so Uber and Lyft drivers can make better informed choices. But let's not take their choices away. For someone looking to make some short term cash, driving Uber may be better than a payday loan or bouncing a check. I don't see how refusing to use a service that someone else is willingly offering could possibly help them. It's weird to worry about the free market when discussing market distorting effects, but then fret that a driver can't freely take their own risks and make their own choices.

[HipGnosis]

As for the second issue, I tend to think that it's hard to have an ethical problem with voluntarily and informed transactions between  consenting adults. Otherwise we'd end up in the position of having to quiz the owner of the local bar before buying a beer about whether whatever profit he's turning actually works out to even minimum wage for all the unpaired hours he puts in every week.

Ya know, I would have to ponder a bit to find anything I'd worry about less than a bar owner clearing minimum wage.

[calimom]

As the widow of someone killed by a drunk driver, I personally love the fact that intoxicated people have other options than climbing behind the wheel. The data is inconsistent, but it does look as though DUI related car accidents have dropped in areas that have a large presence of ride sharing services. While the culture of Uber can give pause, drivers do willingly enter into the agreement to be a contractor. And it is possible to tip them in the app. Hopefully those funds do go directly to those doing the actual driving, not the firms.

[SharkStomper]

I have a price I'm willing to pay for a service and someone else is willing to provide the service for that price.  I don't get where the ethics problem comes into play in that transaction.

[GuitarStv]

As more and more information comes out about the poor working conditions, instability, and below minimum wage earnings of ridesharing drivers has been released I want to ask all of you: Is using ridesharing services ethical?

Literally every complaint listed in this post has also been made against the taxi industry around here.  :P

[Gondolin]

to pair idle cars and drivers with passengers who have somewhere to be.

This is only true if you assume that every Uber driver would be out on the road anyway which is a huge leap. Beyond taxis there's really no such thing as an "idle car".

Anyway, yeah it's ethical for all the reasons posted previously. At any rate, it's more ethical than what I'm doing now - using an  iPhone produced by Chinese quasi-slave labor to post on this forum.

[mathlete]

I think the bad of Uber and Lyft is probably outweighed by the convenience of it. I would not be surprised if quite often, that convenience is the thing standing between drunk drivers and their cars.

If you feel that drivers aren't making enough money, I encourage you to tip them more. As you hinted at, the current business model is unprofitable for very specific and directed reasons, so unlike in the tipping thread, where I gripe about how tips subsidize the capitalist ownership, I have no such gripes here. The capitalists are losing money right now because they're betting on self-driving tech in the long run.

[Paul der Krake]

There are a few shitty things that we could do without, but overall I find these companies to be a net positive.

Can't wait to see self-driving cars make human driving antiquated.

[Jrr85]

to pair idle cars and drivers with passengers who have somewhere to be.

This is only true if you assume that every Uber driver would be out on the road anyway which is a huge leap. Beyond taxis there's really no such thing as an "idle car".

Anyway, yeah it's ethical for all the reasons posted previously. At any rate, it's more ethical than what I'm doing now - using an  iPhone produced by Chinese quasi-slave labor to post on this forum.

i think you are confusing the mechanical term "idle" as in "idling your car" with the more usual or maybe economic term of "idle" as in "unused" or "not utilized".  The idle cars are the ones sitting in people's driveway or wherever and not on the road being used to transport any person or good.   

[Xlar]

I agree that Uber drivers do not get paid enough. Mostly because they don't understand the cost involved. For most of them they are depreciating their car in exchange for $$ now. This doesn't show up until they go to sell the car! So they don't realize what is happening.

I have tried to take taxis when I travel for work but I find it difficult to get them scheduled. Uber is much easier. So I generally use Uber and tip generously to compensate since Uber is generally 75% of the cost of a taxi!

[Scortius]

The endgame for Uber isn't to eventually hit profitability as is, nor is it to use your data to enhance profits. Their current mission is to claim a monopoly on the ride-share business by taking heavy losses at the moment (while running Lyft out of business), and then transform as soon as possible to an autonomous driving company where 1) they will develop a fleet of their own self driving cars, taking the need to pay drivers out of the equation, and then eventually 2) allowing you to 'rent' your vehicle to Uber to use as a ride sharing car while you're sitting at home or at work, taking the need for them to buy their own cars out of the equation.  At that point they'll be insanely profitable, but they'll also have created a system that greatly reduces the requirement for car ownership, which could actually be considered very mustachian.

The ethics here aren't really about exploiting drivers, They're about the age-old tactic of cornering a market by undercutting prices. If you don't like what Uber's doing, you should definitely be boycotting Amazon, Walmart, and probably every other mega-corp out there.

[afox]

I agree that Uber drivers do not get paid enough. Mostly because they don't understand the cost involved. For most of them they are depreciating their car in exchange for $$ now. This doesn't show up until they go to sell the car! So they don't realize what is happening.

Want to know something interesting.  Where I live there are a lot of unprofessional casual landlords and they are doing the same thing.  Many of the landlords do not understand or do not account for their costs.  The way I see it the landlords are providing a community service by offering housing to people with some of the costs subsidized by their savings, income, or hard work.  I guess you could say the same thing about uber, the drivers are providing a community service (low cost transportation).

[Just Joe]

Tip the driver $5 if you think they aren't getting paid enough. I've never used any of the ride services personally.

I wonder if people will ever decide that they don't like their personal info leaking out of their smart phone/social media into the hands of the corporations?

I am hopeful that the Linux phones (not Android) will fulfill this purpose eventually. prob just means the networks will then leak my info rather than my phone...

[kaizen soze]

I agree that Uber drivers do not get paid enough. Mostly because they don't understand the cost involved. For most of them they are depreciating their car in exchange for $$ now. This doesn't show up until they go to sell the car! So they don't realize what is happening.

I agree with this. But I think it can still be rational to do this for short term cash. Kind of like taking a small car equity loan. But as a profit making employment opportunity? I agree it may be a bad deal. The revised study figures from the MIT study apparently indicate that the average driver makes between $8.50 and $10 an hour. That's not amazing, but not bad for a job you do as much or as little as you want or need.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

We take probably 10-12 Uber rides a year, and if they do a decent job, we tip them $5.  I suggest doing the same if you think they are being underpaid.

[mathlete]

Related: A self-driving Uber was involved in a fatal accident.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-suspends-driverless-car-program-after-pedestrian-is-struck-and-killed-1521480386

[Gondolin]

self-driving Uber was involved in a fatal acciden

Finally! I've been waiting for this for years! Autonomous driving may be the future but I've been telling everyone that I'm not getting excited until the courts determine liability and damages for self-driven fatalities. Now the process can finally get underway.


Also, re: the definition of "idle" cars. The definition of a car as "idle" or "underutilized " if it's sitting in a driveway did occur to me after posting. My rebuttal would be that sitting in a driveway is the optimal use case for a car. Underutilization of cars was not a problem this country had and car operation has a myriad of negative outcomes - cost, health, traffic, wear on infrastructure.

Fortunately, I don't think uber has substantially increased the number of cars on the road. The difference is that now 1 Uber serves 5 people in series rather than those people driving themselves but, it's still the same amount of time spent with wheels on the road.

[kaizen soze]

Also, re: the definition of "idle" cars. The definition of a car as "idle" or "underutilized " if it's sitting in a driveway did occur to me after posting. My rebuttal would be that sitting in a driveway is the optimal use case for a car. Underutilization of cars was not a problem this country had and car operation has a myriad of negative outcomes - cost, health, traffic, wear on infrastructure.

Fortunately, I don't think uber has substantially increased the number of cars on the road. The difference is that now 1 Uber serves 5 people in series rather than those people driving themselves but, it's still the same amount of time spent with wheels on the road.

I'm no economist, but surely manufacturing one car for those five trips is a better use of resources than five separate cars for those five trips. This would result if over time ride sharing results in reduced demand for newly manufactured cars, even if there are not necessarily fewer cars on the road at any one time. A car sitting in a driveway is not an optimal use of the car. A car sitting idle 95% of the time (which is average if I recall correctly) represents a waste of resources.  Cars deteriorate with age as well as use. In other words, ride sharing can be a better use of resources even if it doesn't reduce the number of car trips overall.

And let's not forget the drivers. A driver with a car and a drivers license sitting at home wishing they could make more money is also a waste of resources (as opposed to a person sitting at home content to be relaxing). 

[Judicator]

I would say yes it is ethical. I find your concerns somewhat puzzling so maybe you can elaborate?

• Poor working conditions: this claim strikes me as a bit strange since the worker completely controls his/her working environment (the car). I don't know how bad harassment from passengers is but I suspect it would be better than taxi drivers because drivers can rate passengers. I have seen Uber get some flak for trying to induce drivers to work long hours, but I have not read of someone getting fired from Uber for working 20 hours rather than 30.
• Subsidies from billionaires: this also strikes me as strange. Typical subsidies accrue to both producers and consumers, so in this case the billionaires are paying both passengers and drivers to use the service. This makes sense since ridesharing requires network effects and you have to spend a lot upfront to grow the network.
• Low wages: this indicates to me that ridesharing drivers can't / don't want minimum wage jobs that are available. Maybe they would rather earn $7/hour with unlimited breaks, music and conversation than $10/hour where your employer controls everything.
• Misleading workers: this is sort of a corollary to the one above but in my view is the most unethical think Uber or Lyft are doing. They aggressively subsidize new markets and over-promise driver pay and then cut back leaving drivers with potentially expensive capital assets (the cars) and lower earnings. However I don't think this is enough to offset the benefits...

Reasons why I think ride sharing is great for workers:

• Provides opportunity to those who might otherwise have none - traditional work schedules don't work for everyone, employers won't always give extra hours, and sometimes employers just don't want to hire you. For some people a $15 minimum wage is too high since they can never compete with college graduates offering to work for $15/hour. Uber is the way out.
• Creates a way for low income couples to monetize an asset - Uber allows you to get something extra out of a car which would otherwise just depreciate at its normal rate

[Cassie]

I know people who have driven for Uber and it depends on where you live how much $ you make.  For instance if you live in town A and drive people to town B you may get half the $ that you would get if you did it the other way around. It turns out that town B doesn't have many drivers and is much smaller then Town A and people want to go to Town A from B.  I know someone that doubled his pay by moving an hour away.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I tell you what I like about the sharing economy of Uber and AirBnB, maximizing the benefit of owned assets. So conceptually the idea is great, the business practices have definitely been unethical to some degree. Those companies have generally got their start my breaking existing laws, building momentum and forcing laws to accommodate them, that’s unethical. I’m not sure if how they treat their workers is unethical or just plain shitty though. I take a lot of Uber’s and always ask them if they are happy and get enough work, so far, most are happy. Or maybe they just don’t want to bad mouth.

[jim555]

The drivers have agreed to the terms offered so I don't see how this can be unethical.

[Gondolin]

Those companies have generally got their start my breaking existing laws, building momentum and forcing laws to accommodate them, that’s unethical

You're describing every disruptive corporation since Vanderbilt.