Author Topic: Oh, Canada?  (Read 20862 times)

mustacheyouaquestion

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Oh, Canada?
« on: March 13, 2015, 07:45:33 AM »
Hello Folks - Longtime lurker, first time poster.  I'm hoping there are some Canadian mustachians here who'll be willing to weigh in on my wife's and my impending relocation to the frozen north.

We're both in our late 20's, I'm American, she's Canadian, and we're currently living in Cologne, Germany.  After several years in Europe, we've decided to relocate to my wife's ancestral homeland of maple trees, beavers, and poutine (at least that's what they tell me).  While we feel sure about our choice of Canada, we're less sure about exactly where in Canada we want to end up.

The mustachian lifestyle is very important to us, so we'd like to live somewhere reflective of that (i.e. not overly expensive) - although our rental history is in New York City and Cologne, Germany, so basically anything in Canada will be a step down for us on that front.  :)  I work from my home office, so work isn't a problem for me, however my wife will need to be in a place with a reasonable job market, or at least within easy commuting distance of one.  The things that we value most are:

- Excellent access to outdoor activities.  We're avid hikers, runners, swimmers, bike riders, etc, so this is an absolute MUST.
- Farmers markets, cafe culture.
- Good public infrastructure (libraries, public transportation, etc).
- Quality grocery stores.
- Community culture (things like pottery classes, knitting meetups, running groups, etc).
- Quiet.  Maybe even "sleepy".
- Excellent scenery.
- Not too big.
- Not too small.

We're sort of fed-up with big city living, both for the headaches and the price tag - although I don't think we're ready to go green acres either.  I guess if I were going to narrow it down, I'd say the optimal combination would be a small-to-medium sized town within reasonable striking distance of a large-ish city - but we're flexible here, the main issues for us are cost vs. amenities + job market.
Right now, we have three places in mind:
British Columbia
For our outdoor lifestyle, I'm not sure it would get much better than B.C:  From what I've seen, confirmed by my better half, it's just about as good as it gets as far as hiking, skiing, etc.  Everything about B.C. is perfect for us except the price tag.  It seems like everything affordable has been snapped up by oil money from Alberta, and we'd be stuck living in a basement apartment for the rest of eternity.  I would imagine that getting out of Vancouver would help, but I worry about being stuck in a retirement community, and that the job prospects outside of Vancouver/Victoria would be poor.  However, price tag aside, BC would be a no-brainer.

The Maritimes/Fredericton
My wife grew up in Fredericton, and has many fond memories of living in that area.  Pros would be cheap living, beautiful surroundings (if perhaps not as striking as BC), and quiet living.  I'm particularly attracted by the very low cost of housing, which is a big selling point for me.  My worries are the high taxes, crappy job market, poor return on real estate if we ever decided to sell, and that it may be a little bit too "provincial."

Ottawa/Ontario
As a city, I think Ottawa or a smaller satellite town nearby might be my favorite possibility so far.  It's not to big, not too small, cost of living doesn't seem to be through the roof, great community, farmers markets, etc, and at least *some* public transportation.  I love that there's stuff going on, but it's not too self-aware - we've already lived in New York, no desire to do that again.  Where Ontario really falls flat for us is our love of beautiful scenery and outdoor activity.  It just doesn't seem like there's much there in terms of hiking/outdoorsy stuff, which is VERY important to us.  I'm also concerned by the weather, which seems to alternate between irrationally long winters and humid, bug-filled summers.

The only place in Canada where we absolutely CANNOT live is Calgary, as that's where my mother-in-law lives.
As you can see, we're fairly confused.  So, Canadians (or friends thereof) - where would you go?

sky_northern

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 08:08:27 AM »
What field is your wife in? It might make a difference to job prospects, as some are regional.

Money isn't flowing in Alberta like it use to. Keep your eyes open, there might be a few laid off oil workers trying to dump the vacation home soon.

Being a Western Canadian, I'm bias against Ontario. BC and The Maritimes are beautiful. (But defiantly get out of Vancouver, the whole rest of the province is not a retirement community, and you said you were looking towards 'sleepy' which Vancouver is everything but.

I want to throw out another option for you, just to add to the confusion. Depending on what your wife does, maybe Whitehorse would be appealing. It has a nice culture and big city type amenities (since it services the whole territory) but it a small city. Beautiful place. Housing would be the only issue, it is a bit pricey.

Quote
long winters and humid, bug-filled summers
This sums up weather almost all across Canada except the coasts maybe. West coast defiantly an exception, I don't know about the east coast's bug situation.

jodelino

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 08:29:33 AM »
Have you considered Halifax, Nova Scotia? I don't know about housing costs or the job market there, but the city has the cultural life you crave, plus easy access to the beautiful parks and coasts of both mainland Nova Scotia and Cape Breton.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 08:44:04 AM »
I live on Vancouver Island in Victoria, BC.

- Reasonable job market = 350K people in metro Victoria + Vancouver very close for remote working opportunities
- very easy to live outside the city and bicycle in
- great weather
- great outdoors recreation options
- around 700K people live on the island which is 25% the size of Great Britain
- if you can live outside the core of Victroia housing prices are average and rental costs seem quite reasonable

I started in Montreal and moved my way west across Canada. Not only can't I go any further west, but there is no place else I would rather live.

-- Vik

« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 10:21:57 AM by Vikb »

Fodder

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2015, 09:10:15 AM »
As soon as I started reading, I thought that you needed to move to Ottawa.

:)

Not that I'm biased.  I've lived in Ottawa for most of my life.

- Excellent access to outdoor activities.  We're avid hikers, runners, swimmers, bike riders, etc, so this is an absolute MUST.
Ottawa has Gatineau Park, which is a stone's throw from downtown - lots of hiking and skiing to be had.  We also have the South March Highlands, which is a bit of a haven for mountain bikers.  There is a pretty strong network of paths in the city, so bike-commuting (and run/rollerblade commuting) are common.  It is not unheard of for some people to skate to work in the winter (if they live/work along the Rideau Canal).  There are lots of runners too.  The other thing with Ottawa is that you're not too far from a lot of other outdoor havens - Mont Tremblant (2.5 hours), Algonquin Park (2.5 hours), etc.  There is no shortage of outdoor stuff near and far.

- Farmers markets, cafe culture.
There are great farmers markets in Ottawa.  I personally like the Carp Farmers Market, but there are markets downtown, and there are a ton of farms around the city that offer CSA-type services too.

- Good public infrastructure (libraries, public transportation, etc).
Libraries are decent, and if you plan/choose correctly, public transportation is okay.  The Ottawa bus service is really good at getting people too and from work, along a trunk called the Transitway. It is less good at getting people to and from points OFF the transitway and at off-peak hours.  I am a regular bus rider and I find the service decent, but not amazing.  We are getting light rail, but it's going to be a long time before it compares to any sort of good system out there.  But as long as you live close to the Transitway,you'll find public transit is very convenient, though a bit expensive.

- Quality grocery stores.
Again, this will depent on where you live.  We have some small local chains (Farm Boy, Produce Depot) that are great, and the cheap grocery stores (like Food Basics) offer good value and pretty high quality food.  Choose your neighbourhood carefully and you'll have access to great food at a reasonable price.

- Community culture (things like pottery classes, knitting meetups, running groups, etc).
There are tons of classes available either through the city, through the school boards/Algonquin College and through businesses.  Lots of running groups too.

- Quiet.  Maybe even "sleepy".
This is a common criticism of Ottawa - it is not the city to go if you want a crazy nightlife where you are hopping from club to club every weekend.  I like it.  There are interesting festivals should you choose to partake, but it's not a crazy place to live.  I feel very safe here.

- Excellent scenery.
We don't have mountains.  But there are nice hills, river, some pretty buildings and monuments.  I think Ottawa is a pretty city, though it can't compare in terms of geography to a place like Canmore or other mountain-surrounded place.

- Not too big.
- Not too small.
At 1 million, Ottawa is big enough to be interesting, but small enough that I live in a rural area just outside the city, but can commute to my job near downtown in less than half an hour.

In terms of weather, embrace winter by learning to ski/skate/snowshoes (with proper clothing, these are all fun things), and get good bug repellent for summer.

I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.  :)


Fodder

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 09:13:54 AM »
One more thing regarding the job market....

It will depend on your wife's field.  There is a booming-ish tech industry here in Ottawa - so if she is a software engineer/computer scientist, she will find something relatively easily.  It's not all sunshine and rainbows, but my husband is a software engineer and has never had difficulty finding interesting, well-paid work.

The other consideration is whether your wife speaks French.  It's not required for many technical positions, but for more service-oriented positions, and anything involving the government, it's a very significant asset.

Fodder

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2015, 09:19:58 AM »
And one more thing....housing prices.

If you are looking to buy, you're looking at about $300k as a starting point.  There are a few pockets of the city that might be lower, but generally, houses in Ottawa start close to $300k for an older small home (likely needing some renovation) within the greenbelt, or for a newer townhome in the suburbs.  Rent is about $1200 for a 2-bedroom apartment, though as with other places, you'll find lower and higher amounts out there.

But I will again emphasize neighbourhood - to love Ottawa, you would want to pick a neighbourhood well-served by good grocery stores and transit. 

cjottawa

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2015, 09:21:11 AM »
http://www.moneysense.ca/canadas-best-places-to-live-2014-full-ranking

I'm putting in a vote for Ottawa. It's got a small city feel but has a population of about a million.

Household incomes are higher than the national average, driven up by a high concentration public service and we don't have heavy industry here so it's a much more white-collar city than many.

While housing prices across Canada are elevated, Ottawa isn't stratospheric like Vancouver or Toronto and you won't have an hour-long commute if you pick the right neighbourhood to live in. Guidance on that: http://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/2tbttn/best_neighbourhood_to_buy_a_detached_single_under/cnxrpnr
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 09:23:06 AM by cjottawa »

nereo

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2015, 09:22:09 AM »
I'm a US citizen who moved to Canada for work.  Currently I live in Quebec, although I've worked in Newfoundland/Labrador and traveled the Maritimes.

If you can speak some french (or are willing to learn) and like to ski/snowshoe then Quebec city is pretty awesome.  Housing is *much* cheaper than other large Canadian cities like Toronto & Vancouver, or even Ottawa.  There are mountains nearby, public transit is good, outdoor activities are amazing (everything from fly-fishing to rock climbing to downhill skiing).  Definitely lots of cafes and farmers markets in the summer without feeling too 'big'.  I've lived in several northern cities (Boston, Portland ME) but none that seem to celebrate outdoor activities, even in the dead of winter.

It can be harder for non-residents to get jobs here, but since you say you can work at home and your wife is Canadian that should help immensely.  Quebec has its own unique culture which can be both a blessing and a curse for an immigrant. 


YK-Phil

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2015, 09:34:32 AM »
Vancouver Island, for many reasons, especially if you can work from home: incredible scenery, the ocean, a luxuriant nature, a multitude of outdoor activities from hiking to surfing, sailing and kayaking (year-round!), excellent weather (classified as Cool-Mediterranean with mild, rainy winters and cool, dry summers), relaxed lifestyle and friendly folks (especially in the Gulf Islands). Outside of Victoria, housing can be relatively affordable. Work-wise for your wife, the job market is not bad in larger cities like Victoria and Nanaimo, but it depends on what field she is in.

Kashmani

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2015, 10:36:53 AM »
Immigrant from the Ruhrpott here. I live in Manitoba, which is extremely cold, extremely flat, and probably not your best choice. But I have family here and make a lot more money than I could in Germany or likely other parts of Canada.

Here are some suggestions in decreasing order or attractiveness:

1) Ottawa/Gatineau - The National Capital Region is beautifully kept (lots of federal funds), has plenty of bike paths, and within less than an hour you are in gorgeous countryside (Meech Lake, etc.). One hour east and you are in Wakefield, the most beautiful community I have ever seen.

2) Victoria, British Columbia - Mild weather, tall trees, and the ocean. Forget the Bayerischer Wald - the Pacific rainforest will blow you away.

3) Hamilton, Ontario (or anywhere in Southwestern Ontario): The scenery is beautiful, the housing is cheap, and Toronto is only a three-hour drive away.

4) Halifax, Nova Scotia: University town with ocean - great liveability.

Just keep in mind that getting a job in Canada as a foreigner is not that easy. I know a lot of people that are really making no more money here than they did in Germany, and frequently less. To me, Germany is still the second most attractive country in the world (after France), so in my view, there has to be an income premium for living here, unless you are in a truly beautiful portion of the country.

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2015, 05:28:02 PM »
To give a different perspective, I lived in Ottawa for 7 years and I couldn't have been happier to move away.  I wouldn't describe it as "sleepy" the way you would describe a charming country town.  Rather I would describe it as "boring", "unremarkable" and "plain".

Sure, when I first moved to Ottawa, I bragged to everyone about how clean the city is.  It really is very clean, and has some nice greenery in some areas (but is concrete jungle in other areas, especially downtown).  The charm wore off over a few years, and I realized that not only is there very little to do in Ottawa, but there is absolutely nothing interesting nearby Ottawa, apart from Gatineau Park across the river and some ski hills.  The city has little history or culture, unless you consider shwarma shops to be culture.  The population is seemingly 50% government employees, politicians and ambassadors, which probably has a lot to do with why the town is so very boring.  Also the public transit system consists of 100% buses (well except the single, short train line), is slow, unreliable and generally miserable to use, IMO.

On the positive side, I will say that Gatineau Park is absolutely fantastic, and if you do move to the area you should visit it often!  The Ottawa greenbelt is pretty unique too, it is a circle of protected forest and greenland that circles the inner city and separates the surrounding suburbs.  It contains a large variety of hiking trails if you know where to look, and there is even a campground inside the greenbelt (within city limits), which is neat.

But yeah, I would never move back to Ottawa again, there is simply nothing remarkable about it whatsoever.

kathrynd

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2015, 05:42:13 PM »
I've lived in Nova Scotia for 54 years, so i'm a bit biased too. (we retired 4 years ago, so are now snowbirds in Australia 7 months a year)

If you are willing to buy a fixer-upper, there are lots of house available for $30k +. Of course they are in the country.
Maybe before you buy, rent to see if you like an area first.

Heather in Ottawa

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2015, 06:30:37 PM »
Of course, I thought of Ottawa, too... glad it's on your list. The Québec side has cheaper housing and childcare, though that can be offset by higher income taxes... you'd have to see what works with your situation. I don't find it at all boring here, though you have be prepared for a long winter. Liking snowsports helps. I've also lived in Hamilton, Kingston, Toronto area, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, small-town NB, Halifax, and have spent some time in Montréal. Ottawa has them all beat, in my opinion, in terms of there being things to do, outdoor activities, being close to other places (weekend trip to Boston? Ski in Vermont? Or go wilderness camping in Algonquin Park?), and being not too big, not too small.

daverobev

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2015, 06:41:51 PM »
To give a different perspective, I lived in Ottawa for 7 years and I couldn't have been happier to move away.  I wouldn't describe it as "sleepy" the way you would describe a charming country town.  Rather I would describe it as "boring", "unremarkable" and "plain".

Sure, when I first moved to Ottawa, I bragged to everyone about how clean the city is.  It really is very clean, and has some nice greenery in some areas (but is concrete jungle in other areas, especially downtown).  The charm wore off over a few years, and I realized that not only is there very little to do in Ottawa, but there is absolutely nothing interesting nearby Ottawa, apart from Gatineau Park across the river and some ski hills.  The city has little history or culture, unless you consider shwarma shops to be culture.  The population is seemingly 50% government employees, politicians and ambassadors, which probably has a lot to do with why the town is so very boring.  Also the public transit system consists of 100% buses (well except the single, short train line), is slow, unreliable and generally miserable to use, IMO.

On the positive side, I will say that Gatineau Park is absolutely fantastic, and if you do move to the area you should visit it often!  The Ottawa greenbelt is pretty unique too, it is a circle of protected forest and greenland that circles the inner city and separates the surrounding suburbs.  It contains a large variety of hiking trails if you know where to look, and there is even a campground inside the greenbelt (within city limits), which is neat.

But yeah, I would never move back to Ottawa again, there is simply nothing remarkable about it whatsoever.

I mostly agree. I'd suggest the OP rents for a while, wherever they go, and see how they like it.

OP, remember anywhere but Pacific BC gets cold in the winter, to varying degrees and intensities.

Ottawa is humid in the summer. I find that energy sapping. I mean, you go from frozen solid (we had lows of close to -30 degrees C this winter) to mosquito damp humid soggy. Or at least I do. I guess if you've done NY it won't be much different? Not sure, never been to NY (city).

I'm hoping I can eventually convince my wife to move to southernmost Ontario - near the great lakes. Growing season is short here (last frost is late May, first can be in September), while down south is a good few weeks more.

If you like the cold then work away, and yes Gatineau Park is great (we don't get out there often enough, but we live ~ an hour west of Ottawa now).

A comment from my wife's uncle who lives an hour from Halifax was that they couldn't find a 6 week period of snow cover there in the weather records. In Ottawa, well, it varies, but this winter it started in December and is melting now.

Of course, it's possible to walk to the supermarket in -20. I do it. But no way in hell would I choose it.

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2015, 06:49:40 PM »
Ottawa is humid in the summer. I find that energy sapping. I mean, you go from frozen solid (we had lows of close to -30 degrees C this winter) to mosquito damp humid soggy.

Ah how could I forget to mention that part.  Ottawa is incredibly cold and very windy in the winter (I've heard something to do with Ottawa sitting in a huge valley), but its also uncomfortably humid in the summer.  But I would say the entire Ontario/Quebec area has this humidity characteristic.  Where as if you go out to BC, its still hot but there is no humidity so it's quite pleasant.

Heather in Ottawa

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2015, 07:07:05 PM »
WeatherSpark is a great resource for figuring out what you're getting into, climate-wise:

https://weatherspark.com/averages/28316/Ottawa-Ontario-Canada

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2015, 07:34:04 PM »
WeatherSpark is a great resource for figuring out what you're getting into, climate-wise:

https://weatherspark.com/averages/28316/Ottawa-Ontario-Canada

"The relative humidity typically ranges from 40% (comfortable) to 94% (very humid) over the course of the year, rarely dropping below 22% (dry) and reaching as high as 100% (very humid)."

Yup, sounds about right!

daverobev

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2015, 07:37:42 PM »
WeatherSpark is a great resource for figuring out what you're getting into, climate-wise:

https://weatherspark.com/averages/28316/Ottawa-Ontario-Canada

"Over the course of a year, the temperature typically varies from -15°C to 26°C and is rarely below -24°C or above 31°C. "

LOL. Only a few days of -30 or + 35, that's a relief!

modernaimend

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2015, 08:59:40 PM »
I think the Kootenays (SE BC) might be a good fit for you, if you're interested in a smaller community.  Outdoor opportunities are amazing and the various communities have pretty different cultures, so you can pick what suits you. Have a look at Nelson, Kimberley and Cranbrook.  PM me if you like :)

Canadian Expat

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2015, 06:54:33 AM »
Hello! I'm also a Canadian living in NRW, but my husband and I have chosen to stay here until we FIRE.

I do however, OFTEN think about moving back to Canada. My criteria list is very similar to yours, except I lean more towards being in a big or medium sized city pre-FIRE.

While I won't give you advice on where I think you should move, I will share with you where I have considered repatriating to:

Regina, SK
Winnipeg, MN
Calgary, AB (I know that's off the list for you)
Ottawa, ON
Halifax, NS
Montreal, QC

Note, I don't have any first hand experience living in any of these cities, but based on how I live here in Germany (very mustachian), these Canadian cities seem to me to offer a similar balance to what I have here. At least based on job prospects, low cost of living, and outdoor activities.

nereo

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2015, 08:06:03 AM »
WeatherSpark is a great resource for figuring out what you're getting into, climate-wise:

https://weatherspark.com/averages/28316/Ottawa-Ontario-Canada

"Over the course of a year, the temperature typically varies from -15°C to 26°C and is rarely below -24°C or above 31°C. "

LOL. Only a few days of -30 or + 35, that's a relief!
Having grown up in the US South and moved to Quebec, i find it funny as hell when people start talking about how "hot" it is when the temperatures hit 30ºF (86ºF).  We'd routinely go 3 months without it ever going below that.  At the same time my family back home can't fathom temperatures below -15ºC (+5ºF).  Now -20ºC it is no big deal to us.
My point (i guess) is that you adapt and adjust to your local environment. 

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2015, 08:09:39 AM »
Having grown up in the US South and moved to Quebec, i find it funny as hell when people start talking about how "hot" it is when the temperatures hit 30ºF (86ºF).

There is a massive difference between 30ºC at 0% humidity and 30ºC at 100% humidity.  The latter feels like you are being suffocated under a hot, wet, heavy towel, and you sweat like a wild boar.

scottish

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2015, 08:52:55 AM »
Or you could live on the west coast where the sun only shines on the 3rd Tuesday of every month...      just sayin

Retire-Canada

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2015, 10:09:01 AM »
Or you could live on the west coast where the sun only shines on the 3rd Tuesday of every month...      just sayin

I moved to Victoria, BC. I hate being wet and yet I still ride my motorcycle and my bicycles a ton year round.

It rains far less here than people think.

There are specific spots on the west coast that really get wet due to geography, but there are also some super nice spots that are quite dry.

http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Canada/Cities/precipitation-annual-average.php

Ottawa & Victoria have the same annual precipitation stats.
-- Vik

« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 10:54:20 AM by Vikb »

Cpa Cat

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2015, 10:12:55 AM »
I grew up in Ottawa, Ontario. I really liked it there. It always got concerts and events. Had plenty of festivals.

When I arrived in Kansas, I did not understand the meaning of bugs and humid Summers. I wanted desperately to return to Ontario as I sweltered in daily 40C heat/100% humidity while tiny creatures ate me alive. Oh yes, and died from allergies (who knew there were so many types of grass and that I was allergic to them all).

I've grown used to mild Winters now, so if I ever went back to Canada, I would likely choose BC.  My husband doesn't actually know what "wind chill factor" means.

Hummer

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2015, 10:55:46 AM »
You said sleepy. There are many small communities scattered throughout BC that may be a half hour from or an hour from larger city's like Kamloops, or Kelowna. Or you could try Kamloops(~80,000 people). The Okanagan has by far the best weather in Canada. Penticton(~30,000 people) is beautiful. The Okanagon has mild winters, hot summers, many many lakes nearby, mountains and a vibrant outdoor lifestyle. I lived in Kamloops for 2 years. I loved Kamloops. I left for work and currently live in Prince George (hometown). I would highly encourage you to look at the Okanagon. Maybe Vernon, Salmon Arm, Armstrong, Enderby, Westbank, Oliver, or Merrit. There is also Vancouver Island, or the sunshine coast. Lots of people like Victoria and Nanimo or Parksville. However, I'm not fond of being tied to ferry schedules and fares. The sunshine coast is similar but has smaller communities (Gibsons or Sechelt) but also a ferry to get to it even though it's on the mainland. Pemberton is much cheaper than nearby Whistler if you want to try that area of BC. If you try the sunshine coast or Vancouver Island, you will be near the ocean.

Do a Wikipedia search on every community I've mentioned here... :)

From what I've seen you mention, you want to be in a small outdoor community in BC...
Stay out of the Vancouver/Burnaby/Richmond/Surrey/Langley metropolis. Chilliwak and Abbotsford I would also not recommend. The lower Fraser Valley becomes dull, grey, and wet over winter and the smog sticks in the valley all winter. It won't lift out over the mountains. I believe that area doesn't fit your lifestyle.

Cheers

nereo

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2015, 11:13:50 AM »
Having grown up in the US South and moved to Quebec, i find it funny as hell when people start talking about how "hot" it is when the temperatures hit 30ºF (86ºF).

There is a massive difference between 30ºC at 0% humidity and 30ºC at 100% humidity.  The latter feels like you are being suffocated under a hot, wet, heavy towel, and you sweat like a wild boar.
Did you miss the part where I said it was the "US South"??  Try 40ºC at 80%+ humidity. 30% at 100% humidity would be the 'cool period' after a large thunderstorm.   I agree humidity makes a big difference - when living in the US Southwest we'd occasionally hit 50ºC, but it was dry. 
Regardless, my original point is that we acclimate, and the 'comfortableness' of a given temperature is subjective and based largely on recent exposure.  Even now -5ºC in Quebec seems wonderfully mild because it's the warmest it's been months, whereas it felt miserably cold back in late October.

trishume

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2015, 12:49:10 PM »
Another vote for Ottawa/Gatineau here. If you don't like the size of Ottawa Gatineau is close enough to bike to Ottawa easily but has cheaper housing and is closer to Gatineau park which is an amazing place to bike/ski/camp/hike. The bike paths, trails, parks, forests and assorted nature are great and very close by. The libraries are also pretty awesome, mine even has a 3D printer and laser cutter! Definitely has great farmers markets and community, lots of meetups for all sorts of interests, including MMM meetups occasionally.

If I was to pick an alternative to Ottawa, I'd tend to agree with those people who have said Halifax.

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2015, 01:35:19 PM »
Did you miss the part where I said it was the "US South"??  Try 40ºC at 80%+ humidity.

Fair enough.  As a lifelong Canadian, my ignorance of the US South is showing, I assumed it was mostly very dry, but that must not be the case.  I apologize for the misunderstanding.

daverobev

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2015, 04:32:56 PM »
Well.. I've been here 5 years now, and I'm certainly not acclimatised. Compared to the south of the UK, where it snows once every three years, and high twenties is high!

Bugs - you don't have to go far from Ottawa to get mosquitoes. But down town there aren't many. I spent a few months on an organic farm less than an hour north into Quebec... In the forest. I got eaten alive. However, it seemed like it was worse for me (fresh meat!) than for the natives.

40 degrees, 50 degrees I think that's *with* the humidity, right? That's like saying it was -40 here - it wasn't, it was -30 or so, but -37 with windchill.

As they say (up here), no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing. I guess in the Deep South, appropriate clothing is a vehicle or house with a/c :)

But it's about comfort. I want to walk to the supermarket, twice a week say, and not feel like my fingers are going to fall off. That would be my preference. Don't get me wrong, -20 is exhilarating - for a while - but for 2-3 months? Ugh. Ditto anything above, hmm, 26-27.

But hey. I'm a whiny Brit. I like my beer at room temperature (not "warm" as people describe it); you do all realise cold beer masks the disgusting lack of flavour the people trying to get you to drink the cold beer has, right??

Mmm. Nice Greene King IPA. In a pint glass.

Bytowner

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2015, 05:13:32 PM »
Line of work is, as others have mentioned, important. Squamish is popular right now with 20-somethings in the Vancouver area. Commute's a giant pain if you can't get work in town, but it simply can't be beat for outdoors stuff and scenery.

I've lived in Ottawa on and off for 30 years. I think any city is what you make of it, and I find plenty of things to do here. Look at Westboro or Hintonburg/Mechanicsville to get the best out of the city. Don't forget that Ottawa's only a couple hours from Montreal if the culture just isn't quite what you want in Bytown.

The Fake Cheap

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2015, 05:39:37 PM »
I'm a Maritimer, so I think the choice of Fredericton seems wise, I've spent a few years there myself, nice trail system for biking, but this small city has big city traffic problems (I'm exaggerating a bit).  I'm talking 45 mins some days to go about 8 KM.  The down fall with Freddy is that no big city is close by as you require...Halifax is a good 4 1/2 hour drive from there, and Montreal is about 9 hours or so. 

As for Halifax itself, personally I would never move there, and avoid even going there as much as possible.  Housing is way to expensive, commutes are bad, and it is also a crime ridden city, in my opinion.  However, rural NS might not be a bad option.  Lots of great outdoor activities in both NS and NB. 

The other place that would appeal to me  would be Vancouver Island, and maybe interior BC.  I've traveled there, great scenery, but I don't have much info on living there. 

If you want any other advice on The Maritimes, let me know. 

csr

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2015, 06:00:19 PM »
Welcome (home) to Canada. My advice is to go as far west as you can.

Your careers and lifestyle will determine the best city to settle. Having lived in Toronto, Victoria and Vancouver, I would say: Toronto for career opportunities, Vancouver and Calgary to an extent for outdoor lifestyle, and Victoria for raising a family. There will be farmer's markets in every city you go to. Toronto will be the most multiculture, and other Canadian cities will be diverse as well, but  to a much lesser degree.

Seeing that you're avid hikers, runners, swimmers, bike riders, British Columbia-Vancouver and Victoria would be the ideal location for year round athletics. In terms of big cities, Toronto and Vancouver both have excellent public library systems and public transportation networks. If you want a bit of sleepy town feel, Victoria is the ideal smallish medium sized city with all the big city amenities (libraries, big box stores, bus and ferry access), is close to many parks and outdoor spots, and you can get to Vancouver by public transit (around 3 hours downtown to downtown via bus-ferry-bus). The ferry ride is 1hr 35mins only and runs every other hour off season, and as frequently as every hour in the summer.  http://www.bcferries.com/schedules/mainland/tssw-current.php

If you can work from home, go with Vancouver or Victoria, but don't overpay for real estate. Renting may make more sense financially. The mild weather year round is probably worth the higher real estate cost. In terms of COL, Toronto and Vancouver are fairly similar, as is Victoria. Some things are higher in one city, other things lower, it balances out. If you plan to own a car, insurance is much cheaper in BC, but it has higher cost of fuel; but you'll drive less in Vancouver/Victoria as things are not as sprawled out compared to the GTA. Groceries are about the same in both cities, as are taxes. In BC, you only pay GST (5%) on prepared (restaurant) meals vs. 13% HST in Ontario. However, there's a bit more competition in the GTA so you'll tend to have lower prices and more variety. In the end, it's probably a wash. Cycling is much more friendly in BC (more bikelanes and infrastructure, better weather year round) compared to the east.

What you say about the Maritimes is true (from what I've heard, read, and researched): cheap, beautiful, but with high taxes, crappy job market, poor return on real estate.

Ottawa is a nice medium sized city, excellent for outdoor activities, but you may get bored. It is a government city (public servants) so it's kind of tame. Winter can be rough.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 06:15:30 PM by csr »

mustacheyouaquestion

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2015, 08:08:51 AM »
Wow, thank you all so much for your insights and thoughtful comments so far - it really is so incredibly helpful, I can't tell you.  Climate-wise, I grew up in the US Southeast (Birmingham, AL), so I'm well acquainted with unbearable heat, humidity, and mosquitoes.  While you do learn to live with it, I can't say it's a lifestyle I'd necessarily select if I had a choice.

Based on our own hunch as well as all the feedback we've gotten so far, it really seems like Victoria is going to be our best bet.  While Ottawa sounds like an awesome city, and I'd transplant the whole place to BC if I could, the climate is a major drawback, as well as the access to outdoor activities of the kind we're looking for - more along the lines of serious hiking/kayaking as opposed to leisurely stroll through the park, bike ride along the canal etc.  The climate and the lifestyle on the island sounds much more in line with what we're looking for.  We like that it seems to have a slower pace and a small-town vibe, but still has all the amenities we enjoy from a large city - and Vancouver is close enough for the occasional trip if needed.  I confess I'd miss having SOME snow in the winter, but I think from the Victoria area we'd be in easy driving range of some great places for a snowy ski weekend in the wintertime.  My wife has also discovered the "Victoria Knitter's Guild" which has become a strong selling point.  :)

The cost of living in BC does still scare me, but a little bit of superficial research seems to indicate that prices on the island (even directly in Victoria) are much more reasonable and relatively affordable as opposed to somewhere in or around Vancouver.

Fortunately we still have some time to make a final decision (looking to make the move in the next 8-10 months or so), so things still have some time to percolate.

Any chance of a future meetup of the Pacific Northwest Mustachian's Guild?  :)

nereo

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2015, 10:40:40 AM »

Fair enough.  As a lifelong Canadian, my ignorance of the US South is showing, I assumed it was mostly very dry, but that must not be the case.  I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Happily forgiven :-)  My knowledge of Canadian geography was very poor until I moved here, so no worries.  Yes, the US South (which is the south-eastern portion of the US) is characterized by three words during the summer: Hazy, Hot and Humid.

Quote
40 degrees, 50 degrees I think that's *with* the humidity, right? That's like saying it was -40 here - it wasn't, it was -30 or so, but -37 with windchill.
Actually, temperatures in Arizona, New Mexico, and around Death Valley, California can approach 50ºC during the hottest days of the year.  This is before humidity. Thankfully there, humidity is typically 10-15% (dry).  I've lived through both and I can honestly say ~50ºC outside Phoenix (dry heat) is easier than the humid 40ºC in the South.
But getting back to my point, I honestly think it has a lot to do with what you've experienced in your lifetime, both the recent past and in your childhood.  I chuckle everytime I hear a Quebecer talk about how it's "hot" when it gets above 25ºC, but I do a double-take whenever I see predicted lows below -25ºC.
Clothing matters a lot.  Experience matters a lot.  Mindset matters a lot.  You can be happy and out-doorsy regardless of the temperature, IMO.

csr

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2015, 01:07:46 PM »
Wow, thank you all so much for your insights and thoughtful comments so far - it really is so incredibly helpful, I can't tell you.  Climate-wise, I grew up in the US Southeast (Birmingham, AL), so I'm well acquainted with unbearable heat, humidity, and mosquitoes.  While you do learn to live with it, I can't say it's a lifestyle I'd necessarily select if I had a choice.

Based on our own hunch as well as all the feedback we've gotten so far, it really seems like Victoria is going to be our best bet.  While Ottawa sounds like an awesome city, and I'd transplant the whole place to BC if I could, the climate is a major drawback, as well as the access to outdoor activities of the kind we're looking for - more along the lines of serious hiking/kayaking as opposed to leisurely stroll through the park, bike ride along the canal etc.  The climate and the lifestyle on the island sounds much more in line with what we're looking for.  We like that it seems to have a slower pace and a small-town vibe, but still has all the amenities we enjoy from a large city - and Vancouver is close enough for the occasional trip if needed.  I confess I'd miss having SOME snow in the winter, but I think from the Victoria area we'd be in easy driving range of some great places for a snowy ski weekend in the wintertime.  My wife has also discovered the "Victoria Knitter's Guild" which has become a strong selling point.  :)

The cost of living in BC does still scare me, but a little bit of superficial research seems to indicate that prices on the island (even directly in Victoria) are much more reasonable and relatively affordable as opposed to somewhere in or around Vancouver.

Fortunately we still have some time to make a final decision (looking to make the move in the next 8-10 months or so), so things still have some time to percolate.

Any chance of a future meetup of the Pacific Northwest Mustachian's Guild?  :)

You've pretty much nailed the description of Victoria. If you're looking for snow, there's Mount Washington a couple hours north island, or you can just head over to Vancouver for some serious skiing/boarding. There's lot of serious hiking around with the island made of lots of rock formations. See Mount Douglas, Mount Finlayson, Goldstream Provincial Park, Juan De Fuca Trail, West Coast Trail; and for cycling - Galloping Goose and Lochside Regional Trails.

Don't worry about the cost of living, it will be the same as any other Canadian city. Having big box stores (Walmart, Home Depot, Staples, Costco) in the city keeps prices reasonable and in line with national averages. In terms of real estate, you're looking at $300-400k for an average detached home, which is pretty average relative to bigger cities like Toronto or Vancouver.

I forgot to mention,  the community centres are excellent as well if you're into swimming and skating, gym, instructional class type activities.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 01:12:15 PM by csr »

Joan-eh?

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2015, 02:02:57 PM »
Average detached home in toronto is over 1million now, so Victoria is a "steal" in comparison to 300-400k!

FIRE Artist

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2015, 02:20:29 PM »
I have been thinking that Victoria or on one of the small islands will likely be where I FIRE to, but I also really like the idea of Quebec city.  No matter what, Canada is a great country to grow old in due to social services available, so you can't go wrong moving to Canada.

lifejoy

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2015, 07:49:47 PM »
1. Victoria for beauty and best (most temperate) weather in all of Canada

I am very excited for you!

Jon_Snow

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2015, 08:05:18 PM »
Yes, come to the verdant, life-teeming shores of the west coast! Been to virtually all parts of Canada (except the far North) and really, if the splendour of Nature is of importance to you, nothing compares to it. I feel blessed to call it home.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 08:10:16 PM by Jon_Snow »

Aloysius_Poutine

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2015, 08:06:40 PM »
My suggestions would be:
1. Victoria.
2. Kelowna
3. Edmonton.

Fodder

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2015, 08:25:44 AM »

Based on our own hunch as well as all the feedback we've gotten so far, it really seems like Victoria is going to be our best bet.  While Ottawa sounds like an awesome city, and I'd transplant the whole place to BC if I could, the climate is a major drawback, as well as the access to outdoor activities of the kind we're looking for - more along the lines of serious hiking/kayaking as opposed to leisurely stroll through the park, bike ride along the canal etc. 

Can't resist one last plug for Ottawa - there is fantastic whitewater about an hour from the city.  I can't argue too too much about serious hiking, but it's not all calm and serene in this sleepy government town.  ;)

http://www.whitewaterregion.ca/index2.php

:D

Retire-Canada

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2015, 09:11:07 AM »
Wow, thank you all so much for your insights and thoughtful comments so far - it really is so incredibly helpful, I can't tell you.  Climate-wise, I grew up in the US Southeast (Birmingham, AL), so I'm well acquainted with unbearable heat, humidity, and mosquitoes.  While you do learn to live with it, I can't say it's a lifestyle I'd necessarily select if I had a choice.

Based on our own hunch as well as all the feedback we've gotten so far, it really seems like Victoria is going to be our best bet.  While Ottawa sounds like an awesome city, and I'd transplant the whole place to BC if I could, the climate is a major drawback, as well as the access to outdoor activities of the kind we're looking for - more along the lines of serious hiking/kayaking as opposed to leisurely stroll through the park, bike ride along the canal etc.  The climate and the lifestyle on the island sounds much more in line with what we're looking for.  We like that it seems to have a slower pace and a small-town vibe, but still has all the amenities we enjoy from a large city - and Vancouver is close enough for the occasional trip if needed.  I confess I'd miss having SOME snow in the winter, but I think from the Victoria area we'd be in easy driving range of some great places for a snowy ski weekend in the wintertime.  My wife has also discovered the "Victoria Knitter's Guild" which has become a strong selling point.  :)

The cost of living in BC does still scare me, but a little bit of superficial research seems to indicate that prices on the island (even directly in Victoria) are much more reasonable and relatively affordable as opposed to somewhere in or around Vancouver.

Fortunately we still have some time to make a final decision (looking to make the move in the next 8-10 months or so), so things still have some time to percolate.

Any chance of a future meetup of the Pacific Northwest Mustachian's Guild?  :)

If you make it to Victoria drop me a line and I'll show you around.

BTW - check out the tax situation in BC.....much lower comparatively than I had expected. In my income range we are the second lowest.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxes/tax-season-2015-where-in-canada-do-you-pay-the-most-tax-1.2507059

dycker1978

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2015, 09:39:54 AM »
I have to chime in here, and may be somewhat biased, but have you thought of Saskatchewan?  We have the most sunny days of anywhere in Canada.  We have great wide open spaces.

We also have the best job market in the country right now.  There are availabilities in every type of field.  We have beautiful outdoors.

The draw back is it can get wickedly cold in winter here... 

YK-Phil

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2015, 09:58:49 AM »
Wow, thank you all so much for your insights and thoughtful comments so far - it really is so incredibly helpful, I can't tell you.  Climate-wise, I grew up in the US Southeast (Birmingham, AL), so I'm well acquainted with unbearable heat, humidity, and mosquitoes.  While you do learn to live with it, I can't say it's a lifestyle I'd necessarily select if I had a choice.

Based on our own hunch as well as all the feedback we've gotten so far, it really seems like Victoria is going to be our best bet.  While Ottawa sounds like an awesome city, and I'd transplant the whole place to BC if I could, the climate is a major drawback, as well as the access to outdoor activities of the kind we're looking for - more along the lines of serious hiking/kayaking as opposed to leisurely stroll through the park, bike ride along the canal etc.  The climate and the lifestyle on the island sounds much more in line with what we're looking for.  We like that it seems to have a slower pace and a small-town vibe, but still has all the amenities we enjoy from a large city - and Vancouver is close enough for the occasional trip if needed.  I confess I'd miss having SOME snow in the winter, but I think from the Victoria area we'd be in easy driving range of some great places for a snowy ski weekend in the wintertime.  My wife has also discovered the "Victoria Knitter's Guild" which has become a strong selling point.  :)

The cost of living in BC does still scare me, but a little bit of superficial research seems to indicate that prices on the island (even directly in Victoria) are much more reasonable and relatively affordable as opposed to somewhere in or around Vancouver.

Fortunately we still have some time to make a final decision (looking to make the move in the next 8-10 months or so), so things still have some time to percolate.

Any chance of a future meetup of the Pacific Northwest Mustachian's Guild?  :)

If you make it to Victoria drop me a line and I'll show you around.

BTW - check out the tax situation in BC.....much lower comparatively than I had expected. In my income range we are the second lowest.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxes/tax-season-2015-where-in-canada-do-you-pay-the-most-tax-1.2507059

I was pleasantly surprised about that. I currently have NWT residency status and I was wondering how to keep this status for tax purposes after I leave the workforce in a year or so and move to what I thought was over-taxed BC. I guess there is no need to worry!

Retire-Canada

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2015, 10:02:37 AM »
I was pleasantly surprised about that. I currently have NWT residency status and I was wondering how to keep this status for tax purposes after I leave the workforce in a year or so and move to what I thought was over-taxed BC. I guess there is no need to worry!

I moved from AB and I thought I was being taxed higher, but in reality I'm saving $1200 in my tax bracket/yr which equates to buying $17K of stuff and paying 7% sales tax in BC vs. no sales tax in AB. So my tax burden is pretty much the same living in either place - except I like coastal living a whole lot more.

-- Vik

backyardfeast

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2015, 04:56:33 PM »
Hi to all fellow Canucks!  I love these discussions. ;)  I grew up in Vancouver and the Okanagan, and have lived on Vancouver Island for almost 20 years.  DH too, but he's from NS, and all of his family are still there, so we know both coasts well.

If weather, lefty-granola culture, and outdoor activities are your priorities, then BC for the win every time.  As others have said, our income taxes and sales taxes are quite low, as are our utility costs, but we do get fewer included services because of that (ie: we pay out of pocket healthcare premiums--although many employers will pay those too--and schools and healthcare don't always get the funding they need). 

I second the notes that you should keep a few areas of the province in mind, and that job fields will likely make a difference.  The Okanagan (Penticton/Kelowna/Kamloops) and the Kootenays are definitely worth keeping in mind.  Courtenay/Comox on northern Vancouver Island is really nice too, and a young, fun place.  The COL will be cheaper, and there's just as much to do as on the South Island.  The weather's really almost as good too; they are all real 4-season areas, with fun but not too long winters.

A few notes about the Island.  There is NO WAY you are going to find a detached home in the Victoria area for $300-400K.  You could certainly find a nice 2 bd condo in a decent area for that range, but then you're looking at strata fees.  For example, 5 years ago, when we left Victoria, we sold a newish 1 br, 660 sq ft condo in VicWest (great location) for $320k.  If buying a home is important to you, I would think twice about Victoria.  Single family detached, you're looking at $600K +, and some fairly high (and likely going up) property taxes.  And possibly a commute.  Seriously, Victoria is rated only second to Vancouver for being one of the most expensive housing cities in North America.  But as someone else mentioned, rentals aren't bad.  You can do reasonably well for $1000/month, depending on what you're looking for.  For a long time, Victoria had a vacancy rate of less than 1% and it was tough to find something decent.  But I think the condo boom pre-2008 helped ease things a little.

We're in the Cowichan Valley, which is about 45 mins north of Victoria, and 45 mins south of Nanaimo.  I work north, DH works south.  The commute sucks for FIRE plans.  But housing is way more affordable, and the community is AWESOME!!!  SO much fantastic outdoor stuff to do, one of the biggest farmer's markets in the country, great foodie and environmental culture without Victoria's lean toward pretentiousness.  Better weather than either Victoria or Vancouver.  All the city access without the city headaches; the sleepy quietness of country life without the remoteness.  And job-wise it's kind of nice to have access to work in a wider variety of places, if you're willing to drive a little.

For housing comparisons, there's lots between $300-$400K here, and in Duncan or without property, there are still nice houses in the $250-300 range (which is dirt cheap for the Island, you won't get cheaper than that anywhere unless you go to more remote or smaller communities).

 Good luck with your search!  And if you have other questions about the island, I'm happy to help.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2015, 06:58:52 PM »

A few notes about the Island.  There is NO WAY you are going to find a detached home in the Victoria area for $300-400K. 

I paid $420K in 2010 for a 2 bedroom detached house [1000 sq ft] + garage + detached studio office [300 sq ft] and large private yard.

$300K would be tough. $400K you have some options. $500K you have a lot more options

Real estate in Victoria has felt pretty flat since I bought. MLS shows 12 houses between $300K and $400K right now.

If you are interested in buying in the lower end of cost I would come out and rent an apartment then hunt for the right home.

-- Vik

th0rbahn

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Re: Oh, Canada?
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2015, 08:35:16 AM »
I live in Ottawa and it is definitely nice in a lot of the ways you are looking for, but I would probably sooner recommend my old neighbourhood in Halifax.

Take a streetview cruise around and see what you think!

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.653163,-63.608093,3a,75y,105.47h,76.71t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWHWsUJfMT7sXOx6L4yugMQ!2e0

Quiet, close to everything, lots of nice homes under 400k, etc