NYT: They Rushed to Buy in the Pandemic

[FINate]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/04/realestate/home-buying-regret.html

My sympathy is in short supply, mostly here to rant. No one forced people to make crazy house buying decisions. And the mania of HCOL folks paying almost anything in lower cost of areas made life super difficult for locals. I'll be completely transparent that we moved from a HCOL to a MCOL area just before the pandemic hit, and we aren't exactly trend setters, so this has been going on for a long time. I guess I'm mostly bristling at some of the quotes and attitudes in the article.

The couple with no farm experience whatsoever, buys a farm with two cows:

Almost immediately, the couple regretted their decision. The property felt eerily quiet and isolated, and maintaining five acres and two cows was more work than they anticipated. “You see these people on Instagram with their farm life,” Ms. Mohan said. “Nobody tells you what actual hard work that is and how time consuming it is.”

No shit! Farming and working the land is super hard work. Does anyone really think it's easy?

The lady that overpaid for a too-big house in Seattle regrets her decisions because...

“I could have taken a big break or been that person who’s like, ‘OK, I’ll move to Montana and get a house that is everything I want for half the price.’”

Maybe? Though I doubt she has Eastern Montana in mind. Western Montana is very beautiful and it has quaint historic towns, hence it's gotten very expensive.

The guy who moved to Lexington KY:

With a budget of $1 million, Mr. Parman imagined that he could find a picturesque historic property to be his forever home. Instead, he found extremely limited options. And the properties that were available were a far cry from the stately homes he envisioned.

This one seems a little more reasonable, but still, I find the attitude somewhat bothersome.

These stories all have a hint of entitlement, and expectation that $700k or $1M or whatever is going to buy an incredible property somewhere else. I find it somewhat snobbish, like playing the high roller and looking down one's nose while slumming it. I've seen it happen here in Boise, where people move here and then are upset that they can't get a huge historic mansion or lakefront for what they sold their house for in CA. It's so unrealistic that it comes across as arrogant.

/rant I suppose every generation needs to experience the pain of making poor decisions, be it real estate or the stock market or whatever.

[mm1970]

Some of the comments are gold!!

Beau
New Canaan
4h ago
During the early days of the pandemic, I had to give up flying to Brazil for Samba lessons every other month and decided to buy a house in New Canaan CT.  As a long time fundraiser for a small non profit that helps fight for gay farmers rights in Bolivia, I had saved up a considerable amount.  2 million was about my budget but then I saw a house that cost 2.7 million that I really liked but unfortunately it needed a new water heater and the lawn cut. Being bold, I decided to buy the house that needed work and hoped for the best.  Boy, was I in for a shock when I got my first mortgage payment.  I never even bothered to model out what my annual budget would look like.  Now I can't fly to Brazil for my Samba lessons.  Pick me for the next article - NYTimes - pick me!

[cool7hand]

Some of the comments are gold!!

Beau
New Canaan
4h ago
During the early days of the pandemic, I had to give up flying to Brazil for Samba lessons every other month and decided to buy a house in New Canaan CT.  As a long time fundraiser for a small non profit that helps fight for gay farmers rights in Bolivia, I had saved up a considerable amount.  2 million was about my budget but then I saw a house that cost 2.7 million that I really liked but unfortunately it needed a new water heater and the lawn cut. Being bold, I decided to buy the house that needed work and hoped for the best.  Boy, was I in for a shock when I got my first mortgage payment.  I never even bothered to model out what my annual budget would look like.  Now I can't fly to Brazil for my Samba lessons.  Pick me for the next article - NYTimes - pick me!

Thanks for the laugh!

[OtherJen]

Please tell me that some of this is for comedy:

Three months into the pandemic, Stephanie DiSantis felt claustrophobic working from home in her 800-square-foot townhouse in the Queen Anne neighborhood of Seattle.

So, like millions of other Americans, she started looking for a bigger space. She set her maximum budget at $900,000, but soon realized that if she wanted to stay in the central neighborhood, she would have to pay more. She pushed her budget up to $1.3 million, reassessing her priorities.

“I decided, I’ve done a lot of traveling, I’ve had a lot of fun. I’ve done the thing where I’m like, ‘I’m hungry for pasta, I’m going to go to Rome for three days,’” said Ms. DiSantis, 47, who works for Amazon. “I can stop doing that. I can afford to be a little house poor.”

[windytrail]

People who flocked to the suburbs eventually realized that they had to live....in the suburbs.

No sympathy here.

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

[YttriumNitrate]

Seems like this writer started out with an idea: "Pandemic buyers are having a lot of regrets" and then cherry picked data to support their conclusions. The NYT writer cites a February 2022 zillow survey for all sorts of statistics, but apparently didn't bother to do two-minute Google search to see a similar survey was done in March of 2019.

Comparing the two surveys, it looks like the level of buying regret has stayed fairly constant.

[Sibley]

People who flocked to the suburbs eventually realized that they had to live....in the suburbs.

No sympathy here.

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

Well, I bought my home in my 30s and I do intend that it be a long term home. Maybe not until I die, but who knows? I don't have a crystal ball.

But yes, people went a little crazy and did crazy things. Later, reality hits and they have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[yachi]

“You see these people on Instagram with their farm life... Nobody tells you what actual hard work that is and how time consuming it is.”

Everybody tells you it's hard work.  Everybody. 

If you want cool pictures to post on instagram, offer to work a few days for a farmer.  Cows need milked at least twice a day, so make sure you do both milkings and try to live the rest of your life too.    It's fine to think instagram pictures look enticing, but if you're going to buy a farm based on some pictures of a stranger, you've earned what's coming to you.

[mm1970]

People who flocked to the suburbs eventually realized that they had to live....in the suburbs.

No sympathy here.

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

I'm not sure how far ahead I thought when I bought my house in my 30s.  I'm still in it, in my 50s, and we very well might die here.  It's a really good starter home and retirement home.

[FINate]

Some of the comments are gold!!

Beau
New Canaan
4h ago
During the early days of the pandemic, I had to give up flying to Brazil for Samba lessons every other month and decided to buy a house in New Canaan CT.  As a long time fundraiser for a small non profit that helps fight for gay farmers rights in Bolivia, I had saved up a considerable amount.  2 million was about my budget but then I saw a house that cost 2.7 million that I really liked but unfortunately it needed a new water heater and the lawn cut. Being bold, I decided to buy the house that needed work and hoped for the best.  Boy, was I in for a shock when I got my first mortgage payment.  I never even bothered to model out what my annual budget would look like.  Now I can't fly to Brazil for my Samba lessons.  Pick me for the next article - NYTimes - pick me!

Thanks for the laugh!

Haha, love it. Poking fun at the lady bragging about going to Rome for three days because she's hungry for pasta. Puke.

[FINate]

Seems like this writer started out with an idea: "Pandemic buyers are having a lot of regrets" and then cherry picked data to support their conclusions. The NYT writer cites a February 2022 zillow survey for all sorts of statistics, but apparently didn't bother to do two-minute Google search to see a similar survey was done in March of 2019.

Comparing the two surveys, it looks like the level of buying regret has stayed fairly constant.

Yep, I think there's an element of truth to this. It's interesting that the only reasonable person with no real regrets is the last story of the woman that purchased an apartment in... NYC. Cherry pick a few nut cases that moved elsewhere (who I still think are being arrogant asses), then end with a positive story of the one that stayed in the city. I do think she has the most sense of all of them, but I find the editorial process interesting.

[roomtempmayo]

I find the editorial process interesting.

There's always been a heavy dose of a preconceived narrative driving the reporting, but journalism via email and telephone instead of looking and seeing and telling about it during the pandemic sure hasn't undercut the confirmation bias.

Here's another example. Yesterday the NYT ran an article that was a freeform association of crowding at downhill ski resorts (well reported and not a hot take; #vailfail) and racism: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/05/style/vail-ski-resorts-crowds.html 

Anyone who's actually stood in a lift line of people with nearly zero skin showing might find that relationship a bit tenuous, and reasonably expect some evidence that there are racist forces at work.  Here's what you'd get:

Skiing has not historically been accessible to Black or brown people, or those who are economically disadvantaged.

“There are so many areas of our recreational life that have been segregated, and downhill skiing is one of them,” said Daniel Krymkowski, a sociology professor at the University of Vermont who published a book last year about African American underrepresentation in fine arts and outdoor recreation. “This sport took off in our country after World War II. It was created for affluent white soldiers who experienced it in France and Europe.”

“What is interesting about ski culture is that in many ways it builds community by exclusion rather than inclusion,” Ms. Isaac said. According to data from the National Ski Areas Association, 87.5 percent of skiers over the 2020-2021 season were white. Black skiers made up 1.5 percent of the group, and Native Americans, 0.7 percent.

Crowded resorts only exacerbate these tensions, said Anthony Kwame Harrison, a professor of sociology and Africana studies at Virginia Tech. “I don’t think a majority of skiers are racist,” he said. “But if longtime skiers become frustrated because they are seeing ski areas being crowded, when you look at that crowd, who do you immediately identify as being most out of place?”

So the recipe for journalistic success isn't to go to the resorts and see what's going on. 

Instead, just combine two issues the NYT readership cares about (lift lines at Vail resorts + racism), make some calls, plug in the quotations, and old news is magically newsworthy again.

[Travis]

“You see these people on Instagram with their farm life... Nobody tells you what actual hard work that is and how time consuming it is.”

Everybody tells you it's hard work.  Everybody. 

If you want cool pictures to post on instagram, offer to work a few days for a farmer.  Cows need milked at least twice a day, so make sure you do both milkings and try to live the rest of your life too.    It's fine to think instagram pictures look enticing, but if you're going to buy a farm based on some pictures of a stranger, you've earned what's coming to you.

Somebody needs to go back and watch Green Acres.

[RetiredAt63]

“You see these people on Instagram with their farm life... Nobody tells you what actual hard work that is and how time consuming it is.”

Everybody tells you it's hard work.  Everybody. 

If you want cool pictures to post on instagram, offer to work a few days for a farmer.  Cows need milked at least twice a day, so make sure you do both milkings and try to live the rest of your life too.    It's fine to think instagram pictures look enticing, but if you're going to buy a farm based on some pictures of a stranger, you've earned what's coming to you.

Somebody needs to go back and watch Green Acres.

Giggle.

And even if you figure out the milking, how are you at trimming hooves?

[moof]

“You see these people on Instagram with their farm life... Nobody tells you what actual hard work that is and how time consuming it is.”

Everybody tells you it's hard work.  Everybody. 

If you want cool pictures to post on instagram, offer to work a few days for a farmer.  Cows need milked at least twice a day, so make sure you do both milkings and try to live the rest of your life too.    It's fine to think instagram pictures look enticing, but if you're going to buy a farm based on some pictures of a stranger, you've earned what's coming to you.

Somebody needs to go back and watch Green Acres.

Giggle.

And even if you figure out the milking, how are you at trimming hooves?

My hot water soup is second to none, thank you very much!

[Fomerly known as something]

People who flocked to the suburbs eventually realized that they had to live....in the suburbs.

No sympathy here.

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

I did.  But then I decided to move across the country.  I’m currently renting but could see myself living here in the Bay Area, so I’m beginning to look, but I’m picky with a “modest” budget who knows if I’ll find something.

[Just Joe]

And even if you figure out the milking, how are you at trimming hooves?

I recently went down that YouTube rabbit hole. That was interesting! And then there are the unhealthy hooves. Yuck!

[Adventine]

And even if you figure out the milking, how are you at trimming hooves?

I recently went down that YouTube rabbit hole. That was interesting! And then there are the unhealthy hooves. Yuck!

I went down that same rabbit hole a few months ago. Almost as addicting as pimple popping videos. Oy.


On topic: I think everyone has made big decisions under pandemic-related stress (me being one of them) but geez, that NYT article just pissed me off.

[havregryn]

People having completely naive ideas about rural living is definitely a thing and definitely a trend that is growing. I also think there is definitely a lot of Instagram out there deliberately misleading them.
I've met a disturbing number of people who find themselves frustrated by things that are very easy to foresee to anyone with half a brain before committing to buying a house in a middle of nowhere. Many of these stories are from before the pandemic but I can imagine that the pandemic made it worse.

My husband is also falling for this a bit. A guy who spent his entire life in a Scandinavian megacity and doesn't even have a driver's license is now slowly beginning to think that it is a thinkable option to move to a rural area with three kids. Thank God that I grew up in one so I can nip this madness in the bud. But had I not experienced the relative misery of it first hand, I can see how one could become convinced that living in a middle of nowhere is the solution to HCOL woes, especially for those who can work from home.
This article might be cherry picking but so is the dominant social media representation of rural life.

[honeybbq]

Please tell me that some of this is for comedy:

Three months into the pandemic, Stephanie DiSantis felt claustrophobic working from home in her 800-square-foot townhouse in the Queen Anne neighborhood of Seattle.

So, like millions of other Americans, she started looking for a bigger space. She set her maximum budget at $900,000, but soon realized that if she wanted to stay in the central neighborhood, she would have to pay more. She pushed her budget up to $1.3 million, reassessing her priorities.

“I decided, I’ve done a lot of traveling, I’ve had a lot of fun. I’ve done the thing where I’m like, ‘I’m hungry for pasta, I’m going to go to Rome for three days,’” said Ms. DiSantis, 47, who works for Amazon. “I can stop doing that. I can afford to be a little house poor.”

No, Seattle really is that insufferable.

[OtherJen]

People having completely naive ideas about rural living is definitely a thing and definitely a trend that is growing. I also think there is definitely a lot of Instagram out there deliberately misleading them.
I've met a disturbing number of people who find themselves frustrated by things that are very easy to foresee to anyone with half a brain before committing to buying a house in a middle of nowhere. Many of these stories are from before the pandemic but I can imagine that the pandemic made it worse.

My husband is also falling for this a bit. A guy who spent his entire life in a Scandinavian megacity and doesn't even have a driver's license is now slowly beginning to think that it is a thinkable option to move to a rural area with three kids. Thank God that I grew up in one so I can nip this madness in the bud. But had I not experienced the relative misery of it first hand, I can see how one could become convinced that living in a middle of nowhere is the solution to HCOL woes, especially for those who can work from home.
This article might be cherry picking but so is the dominant social media representation of rural life.

I blame cottagecore

[Dicey]

People having completely naive ideas about rural living is definitely a thing and definitely a trend that is growing. I also think there is definitely a lot of Instagram out there deliberately misleading them.
I've met a disturbing number of people who find themselves frustrated by things that are very easy to foresee to anyone with half a brain before committing to buying a house in a middle of nowhere. Many of these stories are from before the pandemic but I can imagine that the pandemic made it worse.

My husband is also falling for this a bit. A guy who spent his entire life in a Scandinavian megacity and doesn't even have a driver's license is now slowly beginning to think that it is a thinkable option to move to a rural area with three kids. Thank God that I grew up in one so I can nip this madness in the bud. But had I not experienced the relative misery of it first hand, I can see how one could become convinced that living in a middle of nowhere is the solution to HCOL woes, especially for those who can work from home.
This article might be cherry picking but so is the dominant social media representation of rural life.

I blame cottagecore

Barf.

[obstinate]

For every sad buyer there's probably an equally thrilled seller. But a story about that won't feed the clicky monster.

[roomtempmayo]

For every sad buyer there's probably an equally thrilled seller. But a story about that won't feed the clicky monster.

Certainly there are some thrilled sellers who are managing to cash in by moving to cheaper markets.

But most folks who sell aren't really cashing in, they're moving within a market that's similarly inflated.  Yeah, they made a profit selling, but they're just plowing it into another property.

It seems like there's a decent chance that the inflation of housing prices is a net negative for society.  Lots of people end up shut out, lots of people end up house poor, lots of people end up with greater leverage, and most of the "cashing out" occurs when someone dies and the house gets sold by the estate.  It's a bundle of increasing risk and/or death.

[kanga1622]

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

DH and I bought our home when we were 29 & 27. No reason to ever sell our home unless we a) get too old/frail to handle the work (or want to pay others) that comes with snow/yard care or b) going up/down stairs is no longer functional for us to care for the basement and do laundry or c) we need to move out of the town in which we live.

My parents bought their home for cash when they got married and lived there until they died.

[geekette]

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

We bought in early 30's, still here in early 60's.  Same with older sister (different state).  My parents bought in their early 40's after a corporate move.  Dad died in his late 70's, but Mom's still there in her late 80's. DH's parents built their home in the 50's and lived there until they died in the 2000 and 2014. 

Then there's my sister who's on her 5th (?) house, and wants to move again, so it varies!

[seattlecyclone]

It seems like there's a decent chance that the inflation of housing prices is a net negative for society.

Economists have studied this. By one study's estimates, the US economy would be 9.5% bigger if only New York and the SF Bay Area had permitted abundant housing construction over the past several decades.

[Chris Pascale]

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

We bought in early 30's, still here in early 60's.  Same with older sister (different state).  My parents bought in their early 40's after a corporate move.  Dad died in his late 70's, but Mom's still there in her late 80's. DH's parents built their home in the 50's and lived there until they died in the 2000 and 2014. 

Then there's my sister who's on her 5th (?) house, and wants to move again, so it varies!

No. I'm 39 and in the home that is right to live with my 4 kids in.

Including the basement (walks out to ground-level) it's 4,000 ft'.

When we were renting a 2 BR apartment for 6 months last year, my wife and I really enjoyed it. Having less was so much better in many ways.

[Abe]

How do they find these people? Seriously, I am interested.

Also I think this article highlights the lack of imagination and empathy that runs through our psyche (especially those who have experience only specific types of deprivation). Not saying everyone should be deprived in multiple ways, but just opening a freaking National Geographic would open their eyes. Or are they willfully ignorant because reality is too much for them to bear?

[Chraurelius]

The yearning for a simpler life in nature goes way back.  A Jane Austen character talks about wanting a cottage in the country, and is similarly deluded.  Marie Antoinette had Le Petit Trianon, a mansion, but a fraction of the size of Versailles.  The Romans had country places.  Generally, these places had gardens, whether the charming cottage style, or elaborate formal ones.
All in all, the desire to get back to nature and have a simpler life is pretty common for city dwellers.

[Chraurelius]

The yearning for a simpler life in nature goes way back.  A Jane Austen character talks about wanting a cottage in the country, and is similarly deluded.  Marie Antoinette had Le Petit Trianon, a mansion, but a fraction of the size of Versailles.  The Romans had country places.  Generally, these places had gardens, whether the charming cottage style, or elaborate formal ones.
All in all, the desire to get back to nature and have a simpler life is pretty common for city dwellers.

[zolotiyeruki]

The yearning for a simpler life in nature goes way back.  A Jane Austen character talks about wanting a cottage in the country, and is similarly deluded.  Marie Antoinette had Le Petit Trianon, a mansion, but a fraction of the size of Versailles.  The Romans had country places.  Generally, these places had gardens, whether the charming cottage style, or elaborate formal ones.
All in all, the desire to get back to nature and have a simpler life is pretty common for city dwellers.

I wonder if a lot of this is driven by a false equivalence between country living and simple living.  The reality is that the hustle and bustle is all a result of our lifestyle choices, and has little to do with the location of our home.  My family's life is crazy right now, but it's because of our choices to have lots of kids, homeschool, be involved in church, DIY as much as possible, etc.  It would be just as crazy if we lived in a dense city, and just as crazy if we lived in the country.

[PDXTabs]

The yearning for a simpler life in nature goes way back.  A Jane Austen character talks about wanting a cottage in the country, and is similarly deluded.  Marie Antoinette had Le Petit Trianon, a mansion, but a fraction of the size of Versailles.  The Romans had country places.  Generally, these places had gardens, whether the charming cottage style, or elaborate formal ones.
All in all, the desire to get back to nature and have a simpler life is pretty common for city dwellers.

Indeed, Walden by Henry David Thoreau reads a lot like Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker. Russians and Ukrainians to this day have dachas but my understanding is that they were/are usually productive assets that produce food.

[CNM]

I live in one of those beautiful and historic MCOL towns and this has been playing out here for decades.  People from Texas or California or NYC move here, thinking they'll get a giant house and live an idyllic life.  But after a few years, many of them are fed up with how "slow and inefficient" everything is, how "provincial" the locals are, and how there isn't world-class live entertainment everywhere all the time.  Many of them move away.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Adios.

[MgoSam]

Related: does anyone in their 30s actually believe they will live in their "forever" home until they die?

The delusions of people in this country...

Ha, I'm 34, the house I live in I bought 8 years ago. I toy with the idea of upgrading to a nicer house as there are things that are lacking in my house but it has 90% of what I want. I have a spare bedroom for some activities, a lake view, a big grocery store and an Aldi within 5 minutes drive, and the two gyms I belong to at both 10 minutes away. Also it's value has appreciated like 25% since I bought it.

[havregryn]

Indeed, Walden by Henry David Thoreau reads a lot like Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker. Russians and Ukrainians to this day have dachas but my understanding is that they were/are usually productive assets that produce food.

The dachas are because in most of these ex-socialist countries, people vastly prefer to live in apartments in cities over living full time in any kind of a rural setting. I often think and talk about this because for me this was a major culture shock when coming to Western Europe (and Americans seem a lot "worse" even). I am also from a former Eastern block country and grew up about 50km from the capital city in a big house on a huge plot but the whole experience was both personally and socially taxing and I am genuinely completely confused when dealing with people from cultures that OBVIOUSLY take it for granted that this is the dream while it would be urban, condensed living that signals poverty/deprivation.

I am actually surprised that there isn't more scholarly work on this because I find it very fascinating.

I've lived in the West for more than a decade now so I can't really say if this is also shifting there, maybe, but when I was a kid, the ideal life was living in the city and going out to your dacha to relax on the weekends. Permanent living without city amenities was poverty and nothing but poverty.
 

[Hula Hoop]

Yeah the 'yearning for a simpler life in the country' seems to go across many cultures.  I know some big city people here in Italy who moved to a small and very beautiful hill town about 2 hours away by train.  They put their kids in the local school and bought a gorgeous house.  They were back in the city within a year.  It turns out that the locals in this town were very unfriendly as neither they nor their children speak the local dialect (they only speak Italian) so they were seen as outsiders and big city folk.  And the people in this town had very conservative views in general (re regarding things like gay rights, women's roles, education) which did not gel with their more progressive views. 

Actually come to think of it my husband comes from a small provincial town like this and now very happily lives in the big city.  Although houses are cheap and the area is beautiful, he said that growing up there as a working class but nerdy kid who liked to read and got good grades at school was horrible.  His family didn't know what to make of him as he was 'different' ie. he didn't leave school at 15 --and he got beaten up a lot for not conforming to toxic masculinity.  His first language was the local dialect of this area and he still speaks it fluently but when we go there he says that a lot of the conversations he hears in the dialect in the local coffee place etc are just horrible - people feel that they can say things in the dialect only spoken in a few villages-- that are really racist, sexist etc.  He was glad to escape to a big city where he isn't seen as weird for liking to read.

[havregryn]

Yeah the 'yearning for a simpler life in the country' seems to go across many cultures.  I know some big city people here in Italy who moved to a small and very beautiful hill town about 2 hours away by train.  They put their kids in the local school and bought a gorgeous house.  They were back in the city within a year.  It turns out that the locals in this town were very unfriendly as neither they nor their children speak the local dialect (they only speak Italian) so they were seen as outsiders and big city folk.  And the people in this town had very conservative views in general (re regarding things like gay rights, women's roles, education) which did not gel with their more progressive views. 

Actually come to think of it my husband comes from a small provincial town like this and now very happily lives in the big city.  Although houses are cheap and the area is beautiful, he said that growing up there as a working class but nerdy kid who liked to read and got good grades at school was horrible.  His family didn't know what to make of him as he was 'different' ie. he didn't leave school at 15 --and he got beaten up a lot for not conforming to toxic masculinity.  His first language was the local dialect of this area and he still speaks it fluently but when we go there he says that a lot of the conversations he hears in the dialect in the local coffee place etc are just horrible - people feel that they can say things in the dialect only spoken in a few villages-- that are really racist, sexist etc.  He was glad to escape to a big city where he isn't seen as weird for liking to read.

This is exactly what I find so surprising when I listen to some people - I always perceived, growing up, that back home this was some kind of cultural common knowledge, this wasn't something rare and individual, the entire bulk of our literature and other cultural production, everything was built around the premise that rural tends to be poor, conservative, difficult for anyone to navigate except those who can specifically thrive off of conservative populations (priests, toxic masculine bullies et co), while it's the urban settings that have been offering opportunity since pretty much the middle ages, and that remain pretty much the only path to a good life for someone who doesn't fit into the first category.

Imagine my surprise growing up, moving and discovering that a lot of people live in a completely different set of premises.

I'm not saying that there is right and wrong here but I am continually surprised by just how different these cultural mindsets are and I can't help but wonder how much they color certain experiences to begin with.
Maybe someone who grows up with the expectation that living in a small town in a nice house is the highpoint of human experience can make it work for them. They're definitely lucky as it is probably a lot easier to FIRE.
I think if you grow up in a situation where either first hand experience or cultural input (or God forbid both like in my case) tell you this will suck you will NEVER be able to not hate every second of it.

I am honestly finding this constant pressure to take the kids and move to some kind of a wasteland with some houses and a church because it's the done thing around here to be one of the most excruciating aspects of living in Luxembourg. I am dying to be back in a proper city.

[Hula Hoop]

@havregryn I think it depends on the person.  My husband's siblings, for example, are perfectly happy in the small town and couldn't imagine leaving to go live in a city.  They all left school at 15 and have normal working class jobs. They don't travel apart from beach holidays. They're perfectly intelligent people but content with their lot.  My husband was the 'weird one' who wanted to travel and see the world and experience different things and meet different kinds of people.  He just had more curiousity about the wider world and loves to read.  But obviously, everyone is different.  I suspect that my husband's siblings are probably happier than him as they expect less from life.  Life in their village is very quiet (I'd say boring) but they like it that way.  They go home in the evenings and watch TV and have no aspiration to do anything different.  When they come to our big city for a visit (an internationally famous art capital in Italy) they just want to go shopping for new clothes.  They have zero interest in visiting any monuments, seeing art or going to a cultural event.

[sonofsven]

I live in one of those beautiful and historic MCOL towns and this has been playing out here for decades.  People from Texas or California or NYC move here, thinking they'll get a giant house and live an idyllic life.  But after a few years, many of them are fed up with how "slow and inefficient" everything is, how "provincial" the locals are, and how there isn't world-class live entertainment everywhere all the time.  Many of them move away.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Adios.

Where I live it's the weather that drives them out. The rain is incessant and many folks can't handle it and move after 2-5 years.
I love the rain.

[eyesonthehorizon]

I suspect part of the American idealization of country living is that American cities are still comparatively young & most of them aren't very optimized for human living since they were built after cars were popular. So most of them can't compare with old world cities for standards of living like walkability, convenience, fresh food quality & ubiquity, etc. which means the tangible downsides of country living - far apart, not as much fresh food you have to travel to get, poor or no public services - are much less conspicuous by comparison, since you already have to get in a car to buy any fresh food, gather or see people, or do much of anything recreational.

[Hula Hoop]

I suspect part of the American idealization of country living is that American cities are still comparatively young & most of them aren't very optimized for human living since they were built after cars were popular. So most of them can't compare with old world cities for standards of living like walkability, convenience, fresh food quality & ubiquity, etc. which means the tangible downsides of country living - far apart, not as much fresh food you have to travel to get, poor or no public services - are much less conspicuous by comparison, since you already have to get in a car to buy any fresh food, gather or see people, or do much of anything recreational.

I'm from NYC so this doesn't apply to my hometown but I understand that many other US cities are car centric. Actually Italians love driving too but parking in our city is nearly impossible so everyone ends up walking, biking or taking public transport a lot more than most Italians would prefer.

[PDXTabs]

The dachas are because in most of these ex-socialist countries, people vastly prefer to live in apartments in cities over living full time in any kind of a rural setting. I often think and talk about this because for me this was a major culture shock when coming to Western Europe (and Americans seem a lot "worse" even). I am also from a former Eastern block country and grew up about 50km from the capital city in a big house on a huge plot but the whole experience was both personally and socially taxing and I am genuinely completely confused when dealing with people from cultures that OBVIOUSLY take it for granted that this is the dream while it would be urban, condensed living that signals poverty/deprivation.

You don't have to convince me, I think that people in the USA and Canada are totally bonkers with their choice in housing, and I mostly grew up here. If I, as an example, watch a YouTube video of Lviv, Ukraine I think that it looks like an amazing walkable community to live in.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I suspect part of the American idealization of country living is that American cities are still comparatively young & most of them aren't very optimized for human living since they were built after cars were popular. So most of them can't compare with old world cities for standards of living like walkability, convenience, fresh food quality & ubiquity, etc. which means the tangible downsides of country living - far apart, not as much fresh food you have to travel to get, poor or no public services - are much less conspicuous by comparison, since you already have to get in a car to buy any fresh food, gather or see people, or do much of anything recreational.

I enjoy a fairly rural living situation.  It's nice having woods and a creek and a short hiking trail all right there. It is also challenging. I can also see the appeal of a truly walkable city area.  What has no appeal is a place where you don't get the benefits of space and woods and all of that and also don't get the benefits of a walkable area to groceries, the library,  events,  etc. That would apply to many of the in between town/cities near me. There's no appeal. We will likely move from the rural area when we get older,  but we'll work to zero in on something that's really walkable with a community. I don't understand people living where there's neither...

[BussoV6]

Some of the comments are gold!!

Beau
New Canaan
4h ago
During the early days of the pandemic, I had to give up flying to Brazil for Samba lessons every other month and decided to buy a house in New Canaan CT.  As a long time fundraiser for a small non profit that helps fight for gay farmers rights in Bolivia, I had saved up a considerable amount.  2 million was about my budget but then I saw a house that cost 2.7 million that I really liked but unfortunately it needed a new water heater and the lawn cut. Being bold, I decided to buy the house that needed work and hoped for the best.  Boy, was I in for a shock when I got my first mortgage payment.  I never even bothered to model out what my annual budget would look like.  Now I can't fly to Brazil for my Samba lessons.  Pick me for the next article - NYTimes - pick me!

Comedy Gold...

[Just Joe]

I enjoy a fairly rural living situation.  It's nice having woods and a creek and a short hiking trail all right there. It is also challenging. I can also see the appeal of a truly walkable city area.  What has no appeal is a place where you don't get the benefits of space and woods and all of that and also don't get the benefits of a walkable area to groceries, the library,  events,  etc. That would apply to many of the in between town/cities near me. There's no appeal. We will likely move from the rural area when we get older,  but we'll work to zero in on something that's really walkable with a community. I don't understand people living where there's neither...

I agree. Similar feelings. What we definitely don't want is what we are seeing alot of in our town - the 2022 version of row housing that still requires a car because things are still too spread out to walk to the grocery. Who wants to try to walk home 2+ miles with cold groceries in seasonal extremes? I could make that a bicycle trip now, but maybe not as a 85 years old someday.

We have friends who live in these row houses in a different city. Nice homes but they have to drive everywhere b/c it is a 5-10 minute drive to the grocery. 3-5 miles to the grocery. They are starting to reach that age where driving is a challenge. Not sure what their next chapter will look like.

[CodingHare]

I think some of it is secondhand nostalgia.  My folks both came from poor, rural backgrounds and despite getting wealthy in the city (medium sized port town), they raised me with this idea that real life was about working a garden, being outside, and owning lots of land.  My mom really romanticized the Little House series (conveniently forgetting all the times they nearly died of exposure or disease.)  And it seemed to me that the conservative media they listened to really latched onto rural America as "real" America, in contrast to the cities which were somehow not "real" America.  In turn my parents continue to identify as small town folk and warned me off of the bigger city.

All while providing better for their family than their peers because they left their small towns.  Mind boggling.

It took me years to realize that living a quasi prepper/homesteader lifestyle was not actually what I wanted for myself, but a meme my parents had planted in my head as the ideal way to live.  Don't get me wrong, I like canning for fun, I like my small herb garden and our acre of property.  But I also like that I am 10 minutes away from a busting town and 30 minutes away from Seattle.  I like my tech job and not tending to livestock.  I like traveling around the state with the dog and not being tied down at home.

On Topic: we bought our house March 2020.  It was an insanely good move for us financially.  Our house is worth 50% more than when we bought it.  The market in our area had a brief window where people were scared to sell and the prices were good, and then BAM housing skyrocketed.

[Arbitrage]

My father's rural dreams came from summers spent on a relative's farm in Iowa.  As soon as we had all graduated from high school in the suburbs, my parents moved out to 'the country.'  However, it wasn't really small-town rural, as it was more of a far-outlying satellite of a mid-sized city.  15 minutes (of high-speed country road) to get to the nearest commercial activity, and 25 minutes to get to the nearer part of the city.  It's ok, but definitely wouldn't fit my desired lifestyle, since absolutely everything requires long, high-speed drives.  Zero bikeability or walkability.

[AMandM]

The dachas are because in most of these ex-socialist countries, people vastly prefer to live in apartments in cities over living full time in any kind of a rural setting. I often think and talk about this because for me this was a major culture shock when coming to Western Europe (and Americans seem a lot "worse" even). I am also from a former Eastern block country and grew up about 50km from the capital city in a big house on a huge plot but the whole experience was both personally and socially taxing and I am genuinely completely confused when dealing with people from cultures that OBVIOUSLY take it for granted that this is the dream while it would be urban, condensed living that signals poverty/deprivation.

In a different twist, I grew up in a large Canadian city with the idea that the suburbs were where rich snobs lived, but the city was where normal people like us lived. I was totally taken aback when I met DH, who grew up in a bedroom suburb of Washington DC; he thought of the city as the place rich people lived, while the suburbs were where housing was affordable. I still haven't figured out whether this is a difference between his city and mine, or a more general Canadian-US difference, or if I just had a totally wrong impression.

[YttriumNitrate]

In a different twist, I grew up in a large Canadian city with the idea that the suburbs were where rich snobs lived, but the city was where normal people like us lived. I was totally taken aback when I met DH, who grew up in a bedroom suburb of Washington DC; he thought of the city as the place rich people lived, while the suburbs were where housing was affordable. I still haven't figured out whether this is a difference between his city and mine, or a more general Canadian-US difference, or if I just had a totally wrong impression.

I also grew up in the suburbs of Washington DC and mainly remember it from the late 80s to the late 90s. While there were areas of extreme wealth (e.g., Foxhall Road, Georgetown) I remember thinking of most of DC as a slum with a crazy high murder rate.