Author Topic: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic  (Read 6955 times)

deborah

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MayDay

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2021, 09:01:43 PM »
Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

Let's face it -- most of us aren't doing rocket surgery. Even if there were a slight cognitive decline, it wouldn't be noticeable in the average workplace.

Quote
My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.


Is it hard to let someone go (in the US)?

With a few exceptions, the USA has "at will" employment. The company can just decide to let you go (or you can just decide to leave). If you aren't fired for cause you can collect unemployment.
Edit for clarification: Certain public sector jobs (think government) and union jobs are exempt. The statistics I see are 74% of jobs are "at will".

Working for large companies, my experience has been that it is pretty dang difficult to fire someone who is below average or even fairly bad, but not egregiously bad. This seems to be the norm at large companies because they don't want to deal with lawsuits (which even if they win, will be very expensive to deal with).

MayDay

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2021, 09:07:58 PM »
The reasons I see for preferring younger workers (which have already been mentioned), are learning new things easier, being more adaptable, etc.

Are t these true things? (They are true about me and I am in my late 30's!).

Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and but also curious- I'm just interested in conversation on this topic beyond labor laws).
LMAO at this post.  As they sing in Hamilton, "Just you wait". Reason #92,567 it's great to be FIRE and not have to deal with people who think like this.
Well, she did note that she's playing devil's advocate.

Anyway, my husband and I talk about this stuff a lot and we read about it and such.  Different kinds of energy, and different types of knowledge.  Fluid vs crystallized intelligence.

I can already tell you that my abilities are declining.  My memory for sure, and my energy level.  I'm 51, and there are many reasons for this.  I have two kids.  I am training for a half marathon.  I am tired.  I need more sleep.  I need more "down time".  I really can't, and don't want to work 50-60 hours a week at this age.  So, there's that.  I was thinking this morning that I have a friend that I worked with about 7-8 years ago, who was probably my age now when she started at the company.  She worked longer hours because her kids were grown.

So, my thoughts:
- senior people (like me, and like the 12+ people I work with over 60) for sure lose their abilities to learn new things and be flexible. But it's at different rates. And, as some of them tell me, everything takes longer to do.  HOWEVER, they (we) have a TON of work experience.  This really does save us a LOT of time and effort because in general, we don't do stupid things.  We can leverage our experience in designing new things.
- They (we) are less open to new time saving procedures.  There are *things* that I need to make my job easier and more efficient (programming), and I cannot program my way out of a paper bag.  And I'm just not going to learn to do that right now.  Each time I've learned a bit, I've forgotten it before I next needed it because it's just not part of my every day job.
- senior people make a lot of money.  Or at least, they can. So, at what point do you look at the 65 year old making 30% more than the 38 year old and wonder if he's worth 30% more?  Because a 38 year old probably still has a lot of experience.  I think of this a lot, because honestly, I can see myself taking a paycut eventually to just continue working but do LESS STUFF.  One of my coworkers does this.
- I keep getting work thrown at me, more and more.  But see what I said above.  I've hit the limit of what I can do.
- My husband is probably almost the highest paid person in his group. His boss says he's worth it, but DH thinks he's definitely slowing down.  However, he is also really really great at training and mentoring.  That's HUGE.  I used to do a lot of that too...never underestimate the importance of having a senior engineer show newer ones how to run an experiment, analyze data, organize their thoughts, and write a coherent report.

Anyway, @Malcat did point out that older people tend to be less willing to take abuse, and that's true.  My friend above?  She quit when we got a new asshole manager.

Anyway, the answer isn't "fire all old people", because as a society, these people need to, you know, live and eat and stuff.  But we also should stop thinking about how every year you will get promoted and make more money.  Companies (like the military) are kind of a pyramid.  Not everyone who gets commissioned is going to make Captain or Admiral, and not every person working is going to make manager/ CEO.

Your point about thinking you will keep making more and more is spot on. I assume I will make less because I might be better at being efficient with certain things, but I will be way less efficient at others. Overall I can already tell I'll be less efficient. My brain just can't. Luckily for me it's a non issue because I'll be retied but it's terrifying to think of all the people who assume they'll make more and more, and take out the loans to go along with it.

Meanwhile we have amazing retired folks who are still highly sought after technical experts.

FIRE Artist

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2021, 05:31:21 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment. 

mm1970

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2021, 12:43:27 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment.
I have to say, this worries me. I do have many friends in their 50s and 60s who worked through menopause, so I hope I can manage it.

My mom hit menopause, got depressed, became an alcoholic, and it killed her.  I don't want that.  I like working.  But if I end up with major issues in memory and such, I will need to make adjustments.

GuitarStv

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2021, 12:45:13 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment.
I have to say, this worries me. I do have many friends in their 50s and 60s who worked through menopause, so I hope I can manage it.

My mom hit menopause, got depressed, became an alcoholic, and it killed her.  I don't want that.  I like working.  But if I end up with major issues in memory and such, I will need to make adjustments.

Woah.  How have I gone through life this long not knowing that this was a thing?  Like I had heard of menopause, but never that it renders people incapable of working and thinking. . .

Metalcat

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2021, 01:16:15 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment.
I have to say, this worries me. I do have many friends in their 50s and 60s who worked through menopause, so I hope I can manage it.

My mom hit menopause, got depressed, became an alcoholic, and it killed her.  I don't want that.  I like working.  But if I end up with major issues in memory and such, I will need to make adjustments.

Woah.  How have I gone through life this long not knowing that this was a thing?  Like I had heard of menopause, but never that it renders people incapable of working and thinking. . .

It can. For some it's very manageable and for others it isn't, a lot like periods. The thing is that for horrifically unmanageable periods, we still have hormonal and surgical interventions to manage them, but for menopause, the hormonal interventions were proven to significantly raise cancer risk, but for the women who are profoundly affected, many still choose to take the treatments and accept the risk, because otherwise they can't function.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 03:27:41 PM by Malcat »

MrMoneySaver

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2021, 01:43:40 PM »
Businesses care about $$.  They don't care about age unless it directly or indirectly affects $$.

When we're young, we'd like to stay young forever. Youth has a lot of positive associations in our culture.

When you hire older folks, you see them every day and you're reminded that as they are, so you will be. Kind of a downer.

I think "fear of aging" is the basis of age discrimination. Your best bet for overcoming it is to have in-demand skills or certifications. Be a nurse, for example.

FIRE Artist

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2021, 03:00:34 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment.
I have to say, this worries me. I do have many friends in their 50s and 60s who worked through menopause, so I hope I can manage it.

My mom hit menopause, got depressed, became an alcoholic, and it killed her.  I don't want that.  I like working.  But if I end up with major issues in memory and such, I will need to make adjustments.

Woah.  How have I gone through life this long not knowing that this was a thing?  Like I had heard of menopause, but never that it renders people incapable of working and thinking. . .

Male privilege.  We would rather understand and correct erectile disfunction than understand and correct the negative effects of menopause. 

PDXTabs

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2021, 03:28:19 PM »
It can. For some it's very manageable and for others it isn't, a lot like periods. The thing is that for horrifically unmanageable periods, we still have hormonal interventions to manage them, but for menopause, the hormonal interventions were proven to significantly raise cancer risk, but for the women who are profoundly affected, many still choose to take the treatments and accept the risk, because otherwise they can't function.

Having never lived in a female body that sounds like a good analogy. I think that for boys/men, or at least for myself in particular, a lot depends on the women you grew up around. My mom never complained about her periods or menopause, so I just figured it wasn't a big deal. She taught me about the potential for bone loss, but nothing else of note. I think that's because it actually wasn't a big deal for her. It wasn't until years later that I had a close female friend with debilitating periods and later a live in girlfriend with PMDD that I understood there was a wide range of experiences.

Metalcat

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2021, 03:53:08 PM »
It can. For some it's very manageable and for others it isn't, a lot like periods. The thing is that for horrifically unmanageable periods, we still have hormonal interventions to manage them, but for menopause, the hormonal interventions were proven to significantly raise cancer risk, but for the women who are profoundly affected, many still choose to take the treatments and accept the risk, because otherwise they can't function.

Having never lived in a female body that sounds like a good analogy. I think that for boys/men, or at least for myself in particular, a lot depends on the women you grew up around. My mom never complained about her periods or menopause, so I just figured it wasn't a big deal. She taught me about the potential for bone loss, but nothing else of note. I think that's because it actually wasn't a big deal for her. It wasn't until years later that I had a close female friend with debilitating periods and later a live in girlfriend with PMDD that I understood there was a wide range of experiences.

It's not so much an analogy as part of the full spectrum of dysfunction that can occur in response to hormonal fluctuations. Pregnancy is also similar, for some women it's no big deal, for other women it results in months of being bed ridden or even death. Hormones can do insane things to the human body.

Also, it's not just a matter of the experience of the women in your life, but also what those women choose to reveal to you, or if they've had medical interventions to manage their particular symptoms.

PDXTabs

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2021, 04:20:56 PM »
Also, it's not just a matter of the experience of the women in your life, but also what those women choose to reveal to you, or if they've had medical interventions to manage their particular symptoms.

I fully admit that, but I thought that it was implied.

PDXTabs

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2021, 04:39:36 PM »
Male privilege.  We would rather understand and correct erectile disfunction than understand and correct the negative effects of menopause.

My mom taught me about menopause and my step-mom taught me about hormone replacement therapy. But TV ads taught me about boner pills. So you might have a point there.

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2021, 04:46:54 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment.
I have to say, this worries me. I do have many friends in their 50s and 60s who worked through menopause, so I hope I can manage it.

My mom hit menopause, got depressed, became an alcoholic, and it killed her.  I don't want that.  I like working.  But if I end up with major issues in memory and such, I will need to make adjustments.

This worries me as well, but ironically, I'm desperate for menopause so I can stop dealing with reproductive hormone issues that have had such debilitating effects on me since puberty.  I don't get the terrible PMS that some women do, but I seem to be almost allergic to my own hormones even when they are at completely normal levels (which they often have not been).  In particular, any notable fluctuation up or down in estrogen (which occurs minimum 3x per month and sometimes more) gives me 24-48 hours of flu-like body pain, stiff grinding joints, digestive disruption, puking-bad migraines, etc.  The Pill has been helpful at times, but I can't always be on it b/c of other health issues and different side effects of the Pill. So I've lived with a lot of chronic pain for decades and had to manage and plan my life under the assumption of regular bouts of debilitating symptoms at least 3 times per month (sometimes more).

I'm so so SO looking forward to menopause, but the transition phase is likely to be pretty brutal, given my history.  Last year, I stopped menstruating completely, and had 2 months of severe hot-flashes 24-7 (every half hour, running with sweats alternating with chills...barely slept all that time). Then the hot flashes stopped, and for 9 months I felt great and was ecstatic.  Yay menopause! Then some other symptoms happened and in the process of getting those checked I realized that an old chronic health issue had revived, and that IT had stopped my periods. Not menopause.  Two weeks after I started on meds for THAT health issue, my periods returned like nothing had happened.  Just fucking great.

So now I'm back to waiting and hoping and dreading the transition part.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 04:49:54 PM by wenchsenior »

Rusted Rose

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2021, 06:36:47 AM »
hormonal and surgical interventions to manage them, but for menopause, the hormonal interventions were proven to significantly raise cancer risk, but for the women who are profoundly affected, many still choose to take the treatments and accept the risk, because otherwise they can't function.

Apparently, HRT is now safer? At least that's what I've heard. It's either that it's been "updated" or that it turns out there was lower risk than they thought? Or there are different forms of it now, or ... something. Generally I'm not a big fan of interventions (never even dyed my hair and probably never will, for example) but after hearing about the horrors that others have dealt with, I dunno.

GuitarStv

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2021, 07:44:10 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment.
I have to say, this worries me. I do have many friends in their 50s and 60s who worked through menopause, so I hope I can manage it.

My mom hit menopause, got depressed, became an alcoholic, and it killed her.  I don't want that.  I like working.  But if I end up with major issues in memory and such, I will need to make adjustments.

Woah.  How have I gone through life this long not knowing that this was a thing?  Like I had heard of menopause, but never that it renders people incapable of working and thinking. . .

Male privilege.  We would rather understand and correct erectile disfunction than understand and correct the negative effects of menopause.

Who is 'we'?  I'd rather understand and correct the effects of menopause . . . not being able to maintain an erection seems like a much less important societal issue than not being able to think clearly enough to perform work.

GodlessCommie

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2021, 07:52:35 AM »
I think it's "we" as in "the male-dominated society". And it is, unfortunately, true.

Metalcat

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2021, 08:05:43 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/17/my-bosses-were-happy-to-destroy-me-the-women-forced-out-of-work-by-menopause

Thank you for this. As a woman, I will admit that not wanting to work through menopause has been as much a driver for wanting FIRE as anything else. Leaving the oil patch for a female driven branch of the public sector (healthcare) has helped me reconsider the urgency of my timelines because although not eliminated, I am less stressed about the thought of going through menopause in this work environment.
I have to say, this worries me. I do have many friends in their 50s and 60s who worked through menopause, so I hope I can manage it.

My mom hit menopause, got depressed, became an alcoholic, and it killed her.  I don't want that.  I like working.  But if I end up with major issues in memory and such, I will need to make adjustments.

Woah.  How have I gone through life this long not knowing that this was a thing?  Like I had heard of menopause, but never that it renders people incapable of working and thinking. . .

Male privilege.  We would rather understand and correct erectile disfunction than understand and correct the negative effects of menopause.

Who is 'we'?  I'd rather understand and correct the effects of menopause . . . not being able to maintain an erection seems like a much less important societal issue than not being able to think clearly enough to perform work.

"We" are the large scale market forces that prioritize erections.

If you want to lose a little faith in humanity, spend some time reading about the history of hormonal medicine for women. My DH did his dissertation on this in the early 2000s and it's how he ended up a staunch feminist despite coming from a staunchly misogynistic Irish Catholic family.

Rusted Rose

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2021, 08:35:47 AM »
If you want to lose a little faith in humanity, spend some time reading about the history of hormonal medicine for women.

Or, frankly, the history of *anything* when it comes to being tainted by misogyny.

I recently read The Hidden Habits of Genius (Craig Wright), and instead of ignoring the history of this hate like most authors do, this guy devotes an entire chapter to some of the utter shit aimed at tearing down women's intelligence and capability, including a number of stunningly hateful statements and bad treatment by "great" men of science and art and so on.

What's more, he doesn't bury this. It's chapter 2.

Maybe it's just the reading I look for, but I am seeing more honest talk about this BS these days. Triggering maybe, but completely necessary.

FIRE Artist

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2021, 10:19:48 AM »
I think it's "we" as in "the male-dominated society". And it is, unfortunately, true.

yep, this is what I meant.  Not sure how else this could have been taken to be honest.  I don't exclude women from the "we" that is our collective patriarchy that women continue to exist under.  As a previous poster mentioned, even I, as a women who had dealt with "difficult" periods since puberty, even I knew about erectile dysfunction through TV before I really knew what I might be in for come menopause because women don't talk openly about it.   

This thread took an interesting turn.

mm1970

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2021, 10:57:42 AM »
Why don't we know about this stuff?  A few reasons, really.

For a long time, women didn't live that long.  Or many of them didn't.
My mom went through menopause in her late 50s.  Yay.  I was 30+ years old and living on my own by then, across the country.
My mom just didn't talk about that kind of stuff.  You know, didn't want to be weak.  This is pretty common.
Women just didn't work, or didn't work in high powered jobs in their 50s so much before.

My MIL went through it at the same time, and I mentioned my mom's depression.  SHE said that for her, it was anxiety.  Like, she would suddenly become really really anxious, and intellectually, she knew it was for NO GOOD REASON.  So she went on some medication.

I've been going to peri symptoms for years.  Doc has often recommended running marathons...body can't take that.  I went on an SNRI for mood swings, and it's helped a lot.  No hot flashes yet, but I'm still 5 years away or so from when my mom hit menopause.  51 is the average, but my mom was 56-57.

roomtempmayo

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2021, 11:27:02 AM »

This is the reason I'm trying to be financially independent. It's not realistic to think you can just work forever.

Same here.  More broadly, it's part of the reason I'm always trying to think of Plan B alternatives (and Plans C, D, and E).

I know quite a few folks who are now mid-career in Fortune 500 companies, and they're always thinking of what they could do next because they're in danger of pricing themselves out of a job.  When the cuts come, they don't come primarily for the VPs.  They come for all of the directors and group heads who aren't going to make VP and can easily be replaced with someone younger and hungrier.  Maybe that's age discrimination, or maybe it's just trying to run a lean organization.  Regardless, it happens to lots of folks, and the best they/we can do is have a fallback plan.

PDXTabs

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2021, 12:06:03 PM »
This is the reason I'm trying to be financially independent. It's not realistic to think you can just work forever.

Same here.

Me too, especially in tech I think that you are actually on borrowed time the day that you turn 40. I might be lucky to get to work to my hopeful FIRE date.

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2021, 12:53:24 PM »
This is the reason I'm trying to be financially independent. It's not realistic to think you can just work forever.

Same here.

Me too, especially in tech I think that you are actually on borrowed time the day that you turn 40. I might be lucky to get to work to my hopeful FIRE date.

I think some of that depends on the company. My company actually has a lot of older employees. I'm not too concerned about ageism at the moment, but I know that could change if management changes their mind.

The goal is to have a giant pile of cash by the time my numbers up so I don't have to worry about finding another job. This blog and forum have been super helpful with getting my shit together. I just wish I hadn't been so complacent about retiring when I was in my 20's. I could have been done by now if I had gotten started a few years sooner.

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2021, 01:21:23 PM »
I think it's "we" as in "the male-dominated society". And it is, unfortunately, true.

yep, this is what I meant.  Not sure how else this could have been taken to be honest.  I don't exclude women from the "we" that is our collective patriarchy that women continue to exist under.  As a previous poster mentioned, even I, as a women who had dealt with "difficult" periods since puberty, even I knew about erectile dysfunction through TV before I really knew what I might be in for come menopause because women don't talk openly about it.   

This thread took an interesting turn.

I'm not intending to make light of the suffering that many women experience during menopause ... but I will mention a frugal silver lining that I've experienced. I used to be cold ALL the time. Now, as I head for my late 50s with continued daily hot flashes and just a general feeling that I'm running warmer than usual, I find that I don't need (can't even imagine wanting to wear) cardigans, flannel pajamas, sweaters, etc. Not to mention the fact that there's no need for a warm winter duvet. So my spring-summer indoor wardrobe is essentially a 4-season wardrobe (even in Toronto) for most purposes. (I do need a moderately warm winter coat but no longer need to have a second "polar strength" winter coat to get me through January and February.)

Plina

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2021, 11:56:09 PM »
The reasons I see for preferring younger workers (which have already been mentioned), are learning new things easier, being more adaptable, etc.

Are t these true things? (They are true about me and I am in my late 30's!).

Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and but also curious- I'm just interested in conversation on this topic beyond labor laws).

Obviously you haven’t worked in an organisation with parents with small kids. They are generally 30-40 years old and during the first years more home with sick kids then at work. During summer they take 8 weeks of vacation because they are legally pretty much allowed to take their parental leave when they want. Who do you think needs to cover up for their absence; people without kids or those so called slower older workers.


MayDay

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2021, 08:03:56 AM »
The reasons I see for preferring younger workers (which have already been mentioned), are learning new things easier, being more adaptable, etc.

Are t these true things? (They are true about me and I am in my late 30's!).

Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and but also curious- I'm just interested in conversation on this topic beyond labor laws).

Obviously you haven’t worked in an organisation with parents with small kids. They are generally 30-40 years old and during the first years more home with sick kids then at work. During summer they take 8 weeks of vacation because they are legally pretty much allowed to take their parental leave when they want. Who do you think needs to cover up for their absence; people without kids or those so called slower older workers.

Nope, I have kids myself and so do many coworkers!

PTO is PTO so it doesn't really matter why people are out.

bacchi

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2021, 09:53:31 AM »
The reasons I see for preferring younger workers (which have already been mentioned), are learning new things easier, being more adaptable, etc.

Are t these true things? (They are true about me and I am in my late 30's!).

Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and but also curious- I'm just interested in conversation on this topic beyond labor laws).

Obviously you haven’t worked in an organisation with parents with small kids. They are generally 30-40 years old and during the first years more home with sick kids then at work. During summer they take 8 weeks of vacation because they are legally pretty much allowed to take their parental leave when they want. Who do you think needs to cover up for their absence; people without kids or those so called slower older workers.

Nope, I have kids myself and so do many coworkers!

PTO is PTO so it doesn't really matter why people are out.

Not when it's maternity or paternity leave.

Enough people realize that a completely free market sucks ass and it makes for an inefficient economy when over half the workplace doesn't have a job. This isn't conjecture. It's what legally happened with minorities and women not too long ago. It would still happen today if Larry Elder, a Republican running for California Governor, had his way.

Quote from: larryelder
Are there legitimate business reasons for a venture capitalist to ask a female entrepreneur whether & when she intends to have children? Hell, yes. I’m not quite sure why it’s the govt’s business to intrude on it.”

SwordGuy

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2021, 11:04:45 AM »
Businesses care about $$.  They don't care about age unless it directly or indirectly affects $$.

Businesses consist of people, people have biases.

https://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

I dont know, seems like it would be pretty hard to isolate one variable (skin color) with all the other variables in how an applicant presents oneself.

You mean, like as in when it's illegal to discriminate, so the business puts a useless staple into the black applicant's resume and then removes it, leaving just the two small holes.  That way, the person picking employees will know which candidates are black and avoid them?   (And yes, it's been done.)

Or when identical resumes are submitted (NOT in person) but one resume has a "black sounding name" and the other has a "white sounding name"?   The percentage of callbacks for the presumed white resume is hugely higher than the presumed black resume.

Seriously, just stop. 

You clearly have not done the research to pontificate on this topic, because if you had, you would not have made the comments you did.

maizefolk

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2021, 11:41:05 AM »
Or when identical resumes are submitted (NOT in person) but one resume has a "black sounding name" and the other has a "white sounding name"?   The percentage of callbacks for the presumed white resume is hugely higher than the presumed black resume.

To be clear, these studies have been done. And the effect is real. And it's pretty much the gold standard in proving differences that are really caused by direct racial bias at the place where you are measuring it, rather than indirect structural issues*, since the names are the only thing which is different between the two groups.

The other nice thing about these studies though is we can actually quantify the size of the effect of racial discrimination in that particular activity (selecting which job applicants to interview).

In a study conducted two decades ago in Boston and Chicago, the same resumes with "black sounding" names generated about 67% as many callbacks a "white names" with the same set of resumes: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

A more recent nation-wide study found that resumes with black sounding names get about 90% as many offers of interviews as resumes with white sounding names. https://www.nber.org/papers/w29053

Now any gap is obviously a bad thing and a problem we need to solve as a society. The data are consistent with us actually having made a lot of progress over the last 20 years. This particular type of discrimination may not be a problem we will pass on to our children and grandchildren.

*For example, part of the actual gap in employment rates between black men and men of other racial groups results from employer's disinclination to hire felons and more black men end up in prison and ... yeah.

wageslave23

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2021, 11:49:24 AM »
Businesses care about $$.  They don't care about age unless it directly or indirectly affects $$.

Businesses consist of people, people have biases.

https://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

I dont know, seems like it would be pretty hard to isolate one variable (skin color) with all the other variables in how an applicant presents oneself.

You mean, like as in when it's illegal to discriminate, so the business puts a useless staple into the black applicant's resume and then removes it, leaving just the two small holes.  That way, the person picking employees will know which candidates are black and avoid them?   (And yes, it's been done.)

Or when identical resumes are submitted (NOT in person) but one resume has a "black sounding name" and the other has a "white sounding name"?   The percentage of callbacks for the presumed white resume is hugely higher than the presumed black resume.

Seriously, just stop. 

You clearly have not done the research to pontificate on this topic, because if you had, you would not have made the comments you did.

I was referring to the linked study.  My comment was specific to that study.  I read the study, so yes I have done the "research" to comment on that study.  Did you?

Nor am I claiming that racism doesn't exist in the corporate world.  You shouldn't need a study to tell you this.  I am pushing back against faulty experiments.   I would propose submitting applications with identical names and a computer generated picture of the applicant with both dark and light skin.  That way you control for the variable that uncommon names get less call backs whether white or black sounding.  And that's just off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 12:00:48 PM by wageslave23 »

Plina

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2021, 12:20:19 PM »
The reasons I see for preferring younger workers (which have already been mentioned), are learning new things easier, being more adaptable, etc.

Are t these true things? (They are true about me and I am in my late 30's!).

Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and but also curious- I'm just interested in conversation on this topic beyond labor laws).

Obviously you haven’t worked in an organisation with parents with small kids. They are generally 30-40 years old and during the first years more home with sick kids then at work. During summer they take 8 weeks of vacation because they are legally pretty much allowed to take their parental leave when they want. Who do you think needs to cover up for their absence; people without kids or those so called slower older workers.

Nope, I have kids myself and so do many coworkers!

PTO is PTO so it doesn't really matter why people are out.

Maybe in US but in Sweden you get 120 days/kid per year to stay home when your kids are sick so you don’t need to use your vacation days. You also get 480 days of paid parental leave. The minimum amount of vacation days are 25 days. I think you have a pretty big incentive to employ people with older kids at least.

MayDay

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2021, 02:11:50 PM »
The reasons I see for preferring younger workers (which have already been mentioned), are learning new things easier, being more adaptable, etc.

Are t these true things? (They are true about me and I am in my late 30's!).

Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and but also curious- I'm just interested in conversation on this topic beyond labor laws).

Obviously you haven’t worked in an organisation with parents with small kids. They are generally 30-40 years old and during the first years more home with sick kids then at work. During summer they take 8 weeks of vacation because they are legally pretty much allowed to take their parental leave when they want. Who do you think needs to cover up for their absence; people without kids or those so called slower older workers.

Nope, I have kids myself and so do many coworkers!

PTO is PTO so it doesn't really matter why people are out.

Maybe in US but in Sweden you get 120 days/kid per year to stay home when your kids are sick so you don’t need to use your vacation days. You also get 480 days of paid parental leave. The minimum amount of vacation days are 25 days. I think you have a pretty big incentive to employ people with older kids at least.

If you are talking about a specific country it helps to specify that. Your Nordic country's parental leave policy is not applicable to anywhere else in the world.

Plina

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2021, 02:25:28 PM »
The reasons I see for preferring younger workers (which have already been mentioned), are learning new things easier, being more adaptable, etc.

Are t these true things? (They are true about me and I am in my late 30's!).

Isn't it also true that folks experience a cognitive decline starting in their 30-40's? I'm pretty sure I read a study that the optimization of work experience and cognitive decline is in your 50's.

My point is, age discrimination seems pretty reasonable all things considered.  Once you get someone in it's very hard to let them go in many big companies.

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and but also curious- I'm just interested in conversation on this topic beyond labor laws).

Obviously you haven’t worked in an organisation with parents with small kids. They are generally 30-40 years old and during the first years more home with sick kids then at work. During summer they take 8 weeks of vacation because they are legally pretty much allowed to take their parental leave when they want. Who do you think needs to cover up for their absence; people without kids or those so called slower older workers.

Nope, I have kids myself and so do many coworkers!

PTO is PTO so it doesn't really matter why people are out.

Maybe in US but in Sweden you get 120 days/kid per year to stay home when your kids are sick so you don’t need to use your vacation days. You also get 480 days of paid parental leave. The minimum amount of vacation days are 25 days. I think you have a pretty big incentive to employ people with older kids at least.

If you are talking about a specific country it helps to specify that. Your Nordic country's parental leave policy is not applicable to anywhere else in the world.

Most of the european countries have some version of parental leave but my point was that people in their 30-40 also could be undesirable as employees because they have to juggle kids and their stuff. Some countries make it harder then others.

maizefolk

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2021, 02:50:21 PM »
Most of the european countries have some version of parental leave but my point was that people in their 30-40 also could be undesirable as employees because they have to juggle kids and their stuff. Some countries make it harder then others.

So you're arguing that childless people in their 30s and 40s are the most desirable employees? ... I guess I should ask my boss for a raise.

Plina

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2021, 03:30:03 PM »
Most of the european countries have some version of parental leave but my point was that people in their 30-40 also could be undesirable as employees because they have to juggle kids and their stuff. Some countries make it harder then others.

So you're arguing that childless people in their 30s and 40s are the most desirable employees? ... I guess I should ask my boss for a raise.

Of course, as I fit the profile. ;-) No, what I am saying is that younger people are not necessary the most desirable employees. I don’t think you can put one group before the other. I know people in their fifties and sixties that have used their expertise to be really productive employees. I have also encountered totally hopeless cases in all age groups. I think it is more personally related. I work with a lot of different consultants and as we concluded with a former colleague yesterday the company name doesn’t matter a crap, what matters is the person. I have worked with people that don’t know a shit and I felt sorry for their customers and I have worked with brilliant people that it is a truly joy to work with. It is not about age, it is about attitude.

keyvaluepair

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Re: NYT on forced "early" retirement due to the pandemic
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2021, 05:25:06 PM »
Think about it, why would an employer fire an employee just because they are old?  It's either a money thing (they can hire someone for cheaper) or it's a skills decline.  Nobody walks around saying "argh, I hate older people!  Fire them all".  People expect and gets raises every year even if they don't increase their skills and production.  They eventually price themselves out of a job.  My uncle use to regularly refuse raises because he didn't want his salary to be too high when the company would eventually get bought out and the new company would trim the budget.

You're overlooking that older people tend to tolerate much less bullshit and abuse. Weren't you in another thread saying "fuck bad employers"? Well, there are a lot of bad employers who depend on employee intimidation as a management strategy, and this simply doesn't work as well with an older, more experienced crowd in general.

Also, having been involved in a lot staff management, I can 100% tell you that I have seen flagrant, baseless ageism.

It seems on one hand, you are willing to heavily criticize employers, but then on another hand, you are willing to give them huge credit that they don't engage in discrimination. Am I missing something?

And yes, I agree that older workers tend to put up with much less bs.  I find myself refusing to accept employer bs, whereas my younger coworkers eagerly accept it.  I constantly push back and/or smile and nod and keep doing things the way I want to do them.  I'm sure there will come a point where I ask for a raise and don't get it because my boss will be thinking that he could hirer someone who is cheaper and more flexible and teachable than me.  That person will probably be younger but it won't be because he/she is younger, it will be because of the qualities mentioned.

That's the thing, you seem to think ageism is this very isolated specific thing where a person holds an entirely irrational belief that people suck as employees just because they are older.

That's now how ageism works. Businesses who structure their management to be abusive in a way that only generally works with younger staff is an AGEIST organization.

I've been part of these organizations. I've done staffing for people whose business only works if young, passive staff are hired. The business structure was fundamentally ageist.

If a perfectly qualified, high performing staff member like yourself, who objectively completes their tasks more efficiently than everyone else, like you described of yourself in another thread, then gets downsized because the company refuses to implement decent management structures that can accomodate talented staff who push back against bullshit, then that company has a problem and that problem is a form of ageism.

I think that I mostly agree with malcat: I've worked at 3 of the FAANGs alluded to above, as well as msft and the F was very definitely ageist by malcats definition. This was because it was much much easier to get youngins to work insane hours. 2 startups later (and now happily retired), the startup structures were ageist for the same reason - get young guys but surround them with pretty experienced technical management - who were older (in their 40s) and then drive them crazy hard.

I still do a lot of coding and studying (doing pro-bono coding for medical research), but the push to work crazy hours just isn't there any more. I'd find it easy to imagine that I'd not make a great FB employee any more though.