Author Topic: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"  (Read 47565 times)

mm1970

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #200 on: November 18, 2019, 11:05:39 AM »
I really do not spend my time trying to guess how much other people make and how they fund their lifestyle. However, I have definitely received comments from other people directed at me.

Most of the comments are negative implying that I'm cheap. "Why don't you buy a new car? It's time."

Then I buy a rental house and it's negative again. "Must be nice."

I bought a house in 2012 and a co-worker questioned my ability to purchase a home because I had a lower ranking title than him. "How can you buy a house? You are only a ...."

It turns out that banks only care about income and debt. They do not give loans based on the social status of a position.

This makes me smile.

dandarc

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #201 on: November 18, 2019, 11:56:03 AM »
Life's too short to drink cheap-ass beer ;)

Lol, the secret is to drink "acceptable" beer at home beforehand. Once you are a little buzzed, your taste buds care a lot less what you are drinking.

So the doctor tells me "you've gotta stop drinking" back in early May. I'm thinking "I might have 3-5 drinks in a week, so I doubt that's it, but whatever, we'll give it a try - too young to have a fatty liver". So I more or less stopped drinking - had 4 drinks total on a 2 week vacation, a couple of beers after we got home from that and one or two glasses of wine when my mom visited. Sitting on < 10 drinks overall in 4+ months when September rolls around. My friend asks "want to go to the Raiders game this weekend?" Never been to an NFL game, so sure. Big time splurge, but whatever. I needed something to eat at the stadium and the beverage options at the only stand without an absurd line were lemonade for $7, and beers were only $9.50 (very good price at a major sporting event - horrifically expensive in almost any other scenario) - I bought a beer. I just asked for "the red one" as I could read the labels on all the other ones and knew I didn't want them. Turns out "the red one" is Budweiser - just regular Bud. Dammit if that was not the tastiest beer I've ever had. Switching from the double IPAs and imperial stouts to "water" seems to have reset my taste buds.
Alcoholic or non alcoholic fatty liver?
Because you can get one from sugar too. Even if you never drink any alcohol. So stay away from all those oversugared soft drinks too ;)
Pretty sure non-alcoholic. I gotta get back on the diet train. Lost ~30 lbs, because in addition to the "stop drinking" I finally made some better diet choices and stuck with them. Cross-country move and I've given probably 10 - 15 lbs back already in a month. Gotta get back on the salad train.

EscapedApe

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #202 on: December 09, 2019, 12:00:08 PM »
If I were content for my savings rate to be 0% rather than 70% I could live like a frickin' king. Hookers and cocaine and first class flights and hatted restaurants. I can't imagine ever doing so, but it's clear that many people are content to have such a savings rate, so of course it's possible for them to live a really nice lifestyle.

The funny thing is, we 70-percenters live better than kings did.

Not even the wealthiest monarchs of the middle ages had closed climate control, refrigerators, automobiles, radio communication, television, DVD players, digital streaming, or the internet. Hell, even some of the wealthiest people in the 1960s didn't have a few of the things on that list, and the 60s aren't exactly ancient history.

The modern middle class standard of living is much higher than that of the wealthiest people of times past, yet we imagine ourselves to be impoverished or just scraping by. What we consider to be the "standard" is very arbitrary, as expectations advance along with technology.

If you can be pragmatic and look at the bottom line, then you can live quite comfortably and buy your freedom early in life, and all on a middle class income.

markbike528CBX

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #203 on: December 11, 2019, 01:56:20 PM »
It depends on whether you view the utility of a watch as only its timekeeping function or whether you see it as a piece of jewellery or even an heirloom, like a nice rug or sofa. If the latter, then the "real value" is far greater than a dollar store watch.

  If your buying an expensive watch, it's to put your wealth/status on display.
However, it could be fake news. No way to know without knowing what their debt is.

You might just like certain nice things. Unless everything in your life comes from Goodwill, there is a degree of 'niceness' to most people's spending. True, you'd have to look at surrounding circumstances to see if the spending is proportionate to the earning.

Someone who spends $10k on a watch might be said to have made a bad financial decision...but what if she really loves watches? Or what if she is good enough at being a surgeon or investment banker that she earned $400k that year? I'd say she overall would have made a good financial decision - if the watch brings her a lot of joy - as long as her overall finances meet whatever savings/retirement goals she has.

Yeah, no.  We make a lot of money.  We are already FI.  I used some of that extra money to buy a StupidCar.  It's the best decision I've ever made in terms of fun.  But it is in no way justifiable as a good financial decision, in any universe.  It was a giant, dumb-ass financial decision.  I took a big fat chunk of cash and put it in an asset that not only depreciates, but that costs me multiple times what my old car did in terms of insurance, maintenance, and repairs.  I can practically hear the giant sucking sound coming from my garage.

And that's ok.  IMO, part of the fun of being FI and saving my money for 25 years is being able to do whatever stupid-ass thing I want to with my extra money without having to justify a damn thing to anyone.  But that doesn't make it a good financial decision.  And telling yourself otherwise is just part of the self-delusion mindset that enables people to rationalize making stupid decisions to buy the ShinyPretty that they can't afford.  Sure, maybe I'll have lucked into something that's "collectible" 20 years down the road, and someone who's even more stupid than I am will pay me even stupider money to have it.  But that's not why I bought it -- and if it were, that would have been even stupider of me, because that's speculation, not investment.

Tl;dr:  An "investment" is something that puts money in your pocket on a regular basis by throwing off cash, such as corporate profits or rent.  Buying other things hoping they'll go up in value is at best speculation, and at worst self-delusion.  As Michelle Singletary says, if it's on your ass, it's not an asset.  So buy whatever the hell you want -- just don't bullshit yourself about how it's an "investment" instead of flat-out, unadulterated consumption.

Is a StupidCar (no trademark) a different brand than the HyperCar(TM) found at alt.pave.the.earth or https://www.reddit.com/r/pavetheearth/ or https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.pave.the.earth/u2j8FQZbyBA ?
            Yes, it's satire people!


Johnez

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #204 on: December 14, 2019, 07:23:36 AM »

There are still decent rates for community colleges in MI though. GRCC charges $115/hour. WCC charges $108/hour and $95 for online. With financial aid the $48-75k income range pays ~$6800 a year. 50% of incoming freshmen to UofM get scholarships (70% of in state) averaging $17000k per student (tuition + housing appears to be around $25000)

There has been an interesting shift in many colleges and universities around tuition. Tuition keeps going up but the amount of scholarships and aid is increasing faster. Beyond covering classes and books there are now programs to supply students in need with laptops and software, covering or greatly supplementing a study abroad. To be honest I'm not sure the logistics of it all in terms of where the money comes from (international + wealthy students + tax deductions for scholarships?) but the list price for a degree is becoming more like the list price for a car: almost no one pays that

Crazy. In California, community college is $46 a unit. 15 years ago it was $20. Pretty eye opening seeing some LCOL states having such high costs in education.

Cyanne

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #205 on: December 14, 2019, 08:49:50 AM »
I just checked the local community college cost per credit. It is $185 per credit when you include mandatory fees. This is in Minnesota.

SwordGuy

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #206 on: December 14, 2019, 03:24:04 PM »
I just checked the local community college cost per credit. It is $185 per credit when you include mandatory fees. This is in Minnesota.

120 hours * $185 per hour = $22,200.   Add in books and a local student can get a 4 year degree (if offered) for less than the cost of an average new car purchase.   Or a 2 year degree for less than the cost of an inexpensive new car. 

That's affordable.

habanero

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #207 on: December 14, 2019, 03:33:16 PM »
My university degree (MSc in computer science) was about 100 bucks per year + living costs and books. So all 5 years combined of tuition, visiting the professors etcetc about the cost of a high-end gore-tex jacket. That's affordable.

SwordGuy

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #208 on: December 14, 2019, 06:49:16 PM »
My university degree (MSc in computer science) was about 100 bucks per year + living costs and books. So all 5 years combined of tuition, visiting the professors etcetc about the cost of a high-end gore-tex jacket. That's affordable.

That's more than affordable, that's dirt cheap! 

Cyanne

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #209 on: December 14, 2019, 09:27:45 PM »
I just checked the local community college cost per credit. It is $185 per credit when you include mandatory fees. This is in Minnesota.

120 hours * $185 per hour = $22,200.   Add in books and a local student can get a 4 year degree (if offered) for less than the cost of an average new car purchase.   Or a 2 year degree for less than the cost of an inexpensive new car. 

That's affordable.

Those tuition rates are for the first two years. If one wants a four year degree they will have to transfer. Instate tuition only at the U of MN is over $14,000 per year. It would be 11,200 for the first two years and 28,000 for the next two for a total of almost $40,000 for tuition. This doesn’t include books or living costs for four years.

SwordGuy

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #210 on: December 14, 2019, 09:54:41 PM »
I just checked the local community college cost per credit. It is $185 per credit when you include mandatory fees. This is in Minnesota.

120 hours * $185 per hour = $22,200.   Add in books and a local student can get a 4 year degree (if offered) for less than the cost of an average new car purchase.   Or a 2 year degree for less than the cost of an inexpensive new car. 

That's affordable.

Those tuition rates are for the first two years. If one wants a four year degree they will have to transfer. Instate tuition only at the U of MN is over $14,000 per year. It would be 11,200 for the first two years and 28,000 for the next two for a total of almost $40,000 for tuition. This doesn’t include books or living costs for four years.

NC has much more affordable 4 year state colleges.   5 of them cost less (for all 4 years total) than an inexpensive new car if you're a  local.   In-state costs + room and board are still lower than the average new car price.

Other NC state universities have higher tuition but are still much cheaper in case folks want to remain local.


StarBright

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #211 on: December 15, 2019, 07:03:58 AM »
I just checked the local community college cost per credit. It is $185 per credit when you include mandatory fees. This is in Minnesota.

120 hours * $185 per hour = $22,200.   Add in books and a local student can get a 4 year degree (if offered) for less than the cost of an average new car purchase.   Or a 2 year degree for less than the cost of an inexpensive new car. 

That's affordable.

But that is also only if you can get through the required coursework in 4 years. My husband spent a couple of years teaching in a community college system in NC and they were notorious for not offering the coursework in a way structured for a 4 year plan. They were also really bad about offering classes that transferred to 4 year schools. 

They were working on the transfer issue when we moved because students would do 2-3 years of the community school and then end up having to do 4 years when they would transfer to State or the UNC system. In many fields it was neither more efficient or cheaper to start in the CC system.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 05:00:38 PM by StarBright »

BTDretire

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #212 on: December 15, 2019, 07:21:44 AM »

There are still decent rates for community colleges in MI though. GRCC charges $115/hour. WCC charges $108/hour and $95 for online. With financial aid the $48-75k income range pays ~$6800 a year. 50% of incoming freshmen to UofM get scholarships (70% of in state) averaging $17000k per student (tuition + housing appears to be around $25000)

There has been an interesting shift in many colleges and universities around tuition. Tuition keeps going up but the amount of scholarships and aid is increasing faster. Beyond covering classes and books there are now programs to supply students in need with laptops and software, covering or greatly supplementing a study abroad. To be honest I'm not sure the logistics of it all in terms of where the money comes from (international + wealthy students + tax deductions for scholarships?) but the list price for a degree is becoming more like the list price for a car: almost no one pays that

Crazy. In California, community college is $46 a unit. 15 years ago it was $20. Pretty eye opening seeing some LCOL states having such high costs in education.

  Are those low rates the true cost or do the taxpayers subsidize the cost?
My suspicion is that the true cost is at least three times higher.

habanero

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #213 on: December 15, 2019, 08:58:55 AM »
Are those low rates the true cost or do the taxpayers subsidize the cost?
My suspicion is that the true cost is at least three times higher.

The true cost of providing education varies wildly from subject to subject. It probably varies a fair bit from system to system, but in general medical school tends to be among the most expensive per credit (or per student or whatever) and some engineering degrees are also quite pricey for the university to provide. On the other side of the spectrum you find a lot in the humanities and social sciences where you can lecture a large amount of students at the same time and they don't require labs with fancy equipment and such.

Some numbers I saw from Norway was that the most expensive medical school costs about 85000 dollars / student / year while on the cheapest end of the spectrum the annual cost per student was about 8000 dollars / student / year. On average the cost is 2.5 times as high in a university for the same course as in a sort-of-community-college over here due to lots more support functions and research going on at universities.

The students never see these costs as higher education is funded over the public budget by taxpayers, hence my direct cost for a 5-year MSc was about 500 bucks or so + living costs and books.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 09:01:14 AM by habaneroNorway »

TomTX

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #214 on: December 15, 2019, 09:17:33 AM »
That's a very unfair Ikea comment!  We bought Ikea in volume when we were poor heading to middle class.  With 8 figures now we can have whatever we want - but some of that Ikea stuff has been with us for more than 25 years and is going strong.  Like new, looks great.  I'll probably pass a couple of them to the kids.  I think the frugal millionaire type give Ikea a big thumbs up!

Agreed - there are some quite durable items at IKEA. Tunhem bookcase, Poang chairs and footrests, whatever our kitchen table is. Decades at this point.

OTOH, I'm not thrilled with the durability of the "25 year" mattress.

TomTX

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #215 on: December 15, 2019, 09:22:28 AM »
I think I am too "low class" to understand the furniture statement. When someone else here mentioned that a MP referenced a colleague who "bought his own furniture," I thought the person who said it meant that the truly rich would hire other people to buy furniture *for them*. But did he mean that you would **already** have inherited furniture so you would not need to buy any unless of a lower class?

This is a rather fascinating little detail.
Yep. It's a way for "old money" to distinguish their status. New money goes and buys suites of furniture. Old money has all sorts of high quality family furniture to pass down when youngsters establish their households.

An older British friend of mine was once wistfully talking about the original Hepplewhite furniture the family had broken up and burned for heat during WWII (when he was a kid).

Hula Hoop

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #216 on: December 15, 2019, 10:29:44 AM »
We must be "old money" then!  When my inlaws died, none of my husband's three siblings or their young adult children wanted their furniture, which was high quality solid wood stuff.  Our place at that time was sparcely furnished so, being the frugal people that we are, we hired a van and brought the lot to the city where we live.  Husband's siblings and their adult children all said "we don't want that icky old stuff.  We'd rather go to IKEA."

TomTX

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #217 on: December 15, 2019, 02:44:13 PM »
Old money had heirloom furniture for you when you first set up your household - not waiting for someone else to kick off.

HBFIRE

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #218 on: December 16, 2019, 01:52:25 AM »
It depends on whether you view the utility of a watch as only its timekeeping function or whether you see it as a piece of jewellery or even an heirloom, like a nice rug or sofa. If the latter, then the "real value" is far greater than a dollar store watch.

  If your buying an expensive watch, it's to put your wealth/status on display.
However, it could be fake news. No way to know without knowing what their debt is.

That's not true at all.  There are a lot of watch enthusiasts that simply love high end mechanical watches and can easily afford them, has nothing to do with displaying their wealth.

BTDretire

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #219 on: December 16, 2019, 06:25:07 AM »
Are those low rates the true cost or do the taxpayers subsidize the cost?
My suspicion is that the true cost is at least three times higher.

The true cost of providing education varies wildly from subject to subject. It probably varies a fair bit from system to system,
My question was aimed at Johnez, he's in California, a state with very high taxes and I suspect some of that money subsidize his low figure for an hour of college. California is not a cheap state to live in and I don't believe they can make a college run at 1/3 the price in other states.

use2betrix

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #220 on: December 16, 2019, 10:14:49 AM »
It depends on whether you view the utility of a watch as only its timekeeping function or whether you see it as a piece of jewellery or even an heirloom, like a nice rug or sofa. If the latter, then the "real value" is far greater than a dollar store watch.

  If your buying an expensive watch, it's to put your wealth/status on display.
However, it could be fake news. No way to know without knowing what their debt is.

That's not true at all.  There are a lot of watch enthusiasts that simply love high end mechanical watches and can easily afford them, has nothing to do with displaying their wealth.

Agreed completely.

This does vary wildly from person to person. Some will flaunt their brand name watches - post pics of it on social media, point it out to people in casual conversation, etc.

Others will truly value the quality of the watch and never do any of these things. If I didn’t use my Apple Watch so much, I’d certainly have a very nice watch as I can appreciate things of good quality.

Along the same lines - I have a LOT of very very expensive clothes that probably 99.9% of people have never heard of the name brands. Jeans, boots, flannel shirts.. I really aim for things made in U.S.A, Canada, and Japan. The materials are leaps and bounds ahead of much of the crap from SE Asia.. Again - these aren’t a status symbol because no one has ever heard of them, just good quality products that I find value in..

mm1970

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #221 on: December 17, 2019, 10:47:33 AM »

There are still decent rates for community colleges in MI though. GRCC charges $115/hour. WCC charges $108/hour and $95 for online. With financial aid the $48-75k income range pays ~$6800 a year. 50% of incoming freshmen to UofM get scholarships (70% of in state) averaging $17000k per student (tuition + housing appears to be around $25000)

There has been an interesting shift in many colleges and universities around tuition. Tuition keeps going up but the amount of scholarships and aid is increasing faster. Beyond covering classes and books there are now programs to supply students in need with laptops and software, covering or greatly supplementing a study abroad. To be honest I'm not sure the logistics of it all in terms of where the money comes from (international + wealthy students + tax deductions for scholarships?) but the list price for a degree is becoming more like the list price for a car: almost no one pays that

Crazy. In California, community college is $46 a unit. 15 years ago it was $20. Pretty eye opening seeing some LCOL states having such high costs in education.

  Are those low rates the true cost or do the taxpayers subsidize the cost?
My suspicion is that the true cost is at least three times higher.
In California, about 60% of community college funds come from Prop 98, which is the same source of funding for public K-12 schools.  It's part of public education system, and about 10-11% of the total Prop 98 funds go to community colleges.

Remember that the students who attend CC are often taxpayers, and their families are taxpayers.

EscapedApe

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #222 on: December 17, 2019, 01:52:33 PM »

There are still decent rates for community colleges in MI though. GRCC charges $115/hour. WCC charges $108/hour and $95 for online. With financial aid the $48-75k income range pays ~$6800 a year. 50% of incoming freshmen to UofM get scholarships (70% of in state) averaging $17000k per student (tuition + housing appears to be around $25000)

There has been an interesting shift in many colleges and universities around tuition. Tuition keeps going up but the amount of scholarships and aid is increasing faster. Beyond covering classes and books there are now programs to supply students in need with laptops and software, covering or greatly supplementing a study abroad. To be honest I'm not sure the logistics of it all in terms of where the money comes from (international + wealthy students + tax deductions for scholarships?) but the list price for a degree is becoming more like the list price for a car: almost no one pays that

Crazy. In California, community college is $46 a unit. 15 years ago it was $20. Pretty eye opening seeing some LCOL states having such high costs in education.

In California, community colleges are heavily subsidized (such as through the BOG waiver) so tuition can be quite cheap. However, the waiver doesn't look closely at what kind of education is being pursued. Tax payers could just as easily be paying for nonsense as they could for someone's undergraduate credits in engineering.

Dragonswan

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #223 on: December 18, 2019, 11:26:21 AM »
The problem is in defining "nonsense".  Different people and segments of society value different things.  While the value of an engineering degree is apparent to all, there are not so clear uses for other degrees.  But all degrees have some value; if only in preserving that knowledge and passing it on to the next generation via teaching or writing a book.  It's more about the motivation and ambition of the student than the actual degree that determine success and usefulness.

So things like theater arts may seem like nonsense to some, but the jobs are plentiful in the right locations.  You don't have to be in front of the camera to make money or have this degree be useful.  The world loves to be entertained and has demonstrated it will pay for the privilege.  Even if you don't go into the entertainment industry the skills translate as soft skills in many industries.  High level sales anyone?  Everybody knows about the butt kisser who "manages up" and never seems to have a down day.  There is some serious acting skill involved in that. It also helps with public speaking - giving presentations and being able to train others effectively.  I took both theater and creative writing classes in college, and they have served me well in my STEM career.  I cannot tell you how useful it is to be able to write well about technical things and explain them to non technical folks.

Even a course in underwater basket weaving could be useful for developing dexterity under difficult situations, so maybe helpful for emergency responders or Coast Guard.  I could on, but you get the idea.

Car Jack

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #224 on: December 18, 2019, 01:24:48 PM »

There has been an interesting shift in many colleges and universities around tuition. Tuition keeps going up but the amount of scholarships and aid is increasing faster. Beyond covering classes and books there are now programs to supply students in need with laptops and software, covering or greatly supplementing a study abroad. To be honest I'm not sure the logistics of it all in terms of where the money comes from (international + wealthy students + tax deductions for scholarships?) but the list price for a degree is becoming more like the list price for a car: almost no one pays that

You can go ahead and believe that.  My older son is going into his last semester at his private college.  He's taken stafford loans.  No aid otherwise.  Next year on campus full boat is about $75k.  It was $60k when he started.  We've paid full price and received zero aid.  I'm no 1%er.  Just an engineer with a wife doing 4 nursing shifts a month.

Imma

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #225 on: December 18, 2019, 02:13:42 PM »
I did both law and cultural history. While I've got a career in law now, I know I use the skills I gained from my cultural history classes every single day. Subjects like historiography may sound a lot like underwater basket weaving, but the skills in source criticism I gained from it are very useful in my job. And more importantly, while my law degree taught me practical skills, cultural history shaped my thinking and my analytic skills.

Some people on this forum heavily promote STEM subjects as the only way to get ahead in life. It's true that those subjects often lead to jobs, which is important, but the #1 skill you are supposed to gain at university has nothing to do with math but is gaining an academic mindset. In some fields, like engineering/ or law, a specific degree is important, but for most professional jobs, the academic mindset, the analytical and critical thinking skills are way more important than very specific factual knowledge.

scottish

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #226 on: December 18, 2019, 08:14:49 PM »
What do you mean by academic mindset?

In STEM an overly academic approach can be a disadvantage...

HBFIRE

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #227 on: December 18, 2019, 08:39:33 PM »
✄----------

for most professional jobs, the academic mindset, the analytical and critical thinking skills are way more important than very specific factual knowledge.

Completely agree, and I think so would Elon Musk and Mark Cuban.  https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/26/the-skill-mark-cuban-and-elon-musk-say-is-critical-to-success.html

The thing is, professional skills are trainable.  The raw abilities of critical thinking and analysis are tougher to become proficient at.  I will hire someone with raw horse power (IQ) combined with analytical and critical thinking ability that I can train over someone that merely has learned skills every time.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 08:49:57 PM by HBFIRE »

roomtempmayo

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #228 on: December 18, 2019, 09:04:06 PM »
I just checked the local community college cost per credit. It is $185 per credit when you include mandatory fees. This is in Minnesota.

120 hours * $185 per hour = $22,200.   Add in books and a local student can get a 4 year degree (if offered) for less than the cost of an average new car purchase.   Or a 2 year degree for less than the cost of an inexpensive new car. 

That's affordable.

But that is also only if you can get through the required coursework in 4 years. My husband spent a couple of years teaching in a community college system in NC and they were notorious for not offering the coursework in a way structured for a 4 year plan. They were also really bad about offering classes that transferred to 4 year schools. 

They were working on the transfer issue when we moved because students would do 2-3 years of the community school and then end up having to do 4 years when they would transfer to State or the UNC system. In many fields it was neither more efficient or cheaper to start in the CC system.

This is also true at the University of Minnesota.  It would be incredibly rare for a student to do two years at a CC and finish at the U in an additional two.  That's partly because the average time to degree at the U is 6-7 years, partly because the student will come from CC underprepared, and partly because for a variety of reasons both academic and personal they have a low likelihood of consistently completing 16-20 credits each semester.

The possibility of spending two years at a CC and completing a bachelors degree in an additional two from an even mildly selective university in a moderately demanding field is mostly a myth.  Not that there aren't a handful of people who have done it, but they're unicorns.  I would never advise a person I cared about and thought had real potential to try to save money by going to a CC and then transferring to a good university.

merula

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #229 on: December 19, 2019, 06:48:57 AM »
This is also true at the University of Minnesota.  It would be incredibly rare for a student to do two years at a CC and finish at the U in an additional two.  That's partly because the average time to degree at the U is 6-7 years, partly because the student will come from CC underprepared, and partly because for a variety of reasons both academic and personal they have a low likelihood of consistently completing 16-20 credits each semester.

The possibility of spending two years at a CC and completing a bachelors degree in an additional two from an even mildly selective university in a moderately demanding field is mostly a myth.  Not that there aren't a handful of people who have done it, but they're unicorns.  I would never advise a person I cared about and thought had real potential to try to save money by going to a CC and then transferring to a good university.

Exactly! Even schools that deliberately try to funnel students to the U do a terrible job of it these days. I'll be honest, my FIL did this (Century to U, biology and chemistry) in the 1970s, but it's not possible anymore. The rigor isn't there at the CCs. Century, Inver Hills, HCTC all have 3 credit-hour intro physics/bio courses. The U requires 4 credit hour. There's probably an argument to be made about who caused the disconnect (lack of rigor vs deliberately changing requirements), but it's there.

KCM5

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #230 on: December 19, 2019, 08:44:39 AM »

The possibility of spending two years at a CC and completing a bachelors degree in an additional two from an even mildly selective university in a moderately demanding field is mostly a myth.  Not that there aren't a handful of people who have done it, but they're unicorns.  I would never advise a person I cared about and thought had real potential to try to save money by going to a CC and then transferring to a good university.

This isn’t universally true. My spouse just did two years at a CC and two yours at a land grant university and ended with a degree just four years ago. He also didn’t need to take more than 16 credit hours/semester. Caveats: he completed a degree in that wasn’t a hard science, so not a lot of lab courses. And his minor was a social science. And the Cc/University have an agreement worked out that guarantees four year graduation if you meet certain criteria. He fully met all of the criteria for graduation without any modifications to the requirements, though. This is in Iowa - the system appears to work if your situation is right (majors in business, social science, English, communications, etc. probably not for hard sciences or engineering, but I have no data on that part as I never tried it myself)

So basically, what I’m saying is don’t let your knee-jerk reaction against it bias you without looking into the details for every program (or send your kid south to Iowa ;)

jeroly

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2019, 09:29:32 AM »
This is also true at the University of Minnesota.  It would be incredibly rare for a student to do two years at a CC and finish at the U in an additional two.  That's partly because the average time to degree at the U is 6-7 years, partly because the student will come from CC underprepared, and partly because for a variety of reasons both academic and personal they have a low likelihood of consistently completing 16-20 credits each semester.

The possibility of spending two years at a CC and completing a bachelors degree in an additional two from an even mildly selective university in a moderately demanding field is mostly a myth.  Not that there aren't a handful of people who have done it, but they're unicorns.  I would never advise a person I cared about and thought had real potential to try to save money by going to a CC and then transferring to a good university.

Exactly! Even schools that deliberately try to funnel students to the U do a terrible job of it these days. I'll be honest, my FIL did this (Century to U, biology and chemistry) in the 1970s, but it's not possible anymore. The rigor isn't there at the CCs. Century, Inver Hills, HCTC all have 3 credit-hour intro physics/bio courses. The U requires 4 credit hour. There's probably an argument to be made about who caused the disconnect (lack of rigor vs deliberately changing requirements), but it's there.
The bigger issue is that most students entering community colleges come in woefully unprepared. They then are funneled into what are essentially college prep classes in order to get them to be able to perform at the undergraduate level.

For a student that is choosing community college solely on the basis of cost rather than because they can’t get in to the college of their choice, there are in my understanding usually courses that are the equivalent of four year college courses so that you can transition easily after you get your associates degree.  Community colleges develop what are called articulation agreements with four year colleges that make this explicit so students know what courses will transfer over and which won’t.

LennStar

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #232 on: December 19, 2019, 10:42:30 AM »
But joking aside, I do think some majors need to be disqualified from public funding unless it can be shown to be a useful and marketable skill.

You are aware that "useful" and "marketable" are not the same? In fact, according to the woefully scarce research into that (I wonder why...) it is generally the proportional opposite.

The more valuable your job is for society the worse it gets paid (think of nurses and hospital cleaning staff), while those who actually destroy worth for the society (investment bankers) often get paid a lot.

Do mind that "worth for society" and "makes money" are not the same. Steal a tank, roll through some houses, and you have greatly increased the GDP with the repair effort, but that hardly qualifies as useful or of worth to society, right?

Cranky

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #233 on: December 19, 2019, 10:51:30 AM »
I did both law and cultural history. While I've got a career in law now, I know I use the skills I gained from my cultural history classes every single day. Subjects like historiography may sound a lot like underwater basket weaving, but the skills in source criticism I gained from it are very useful in my job. And more importantly, while my law degree taught me practical skills, cultural history shaped my thinking and my analytic skills.

Some people on this forum heavily promote STEM subjects as the only way to get ahead in life. It's true that those subjects often lead to jobs, which is important, but the #1 skill you are supposed to gain at university has nothing to do with math but is gaining an academic mindset. In some fields, like engineering/ or law, a specific degree is important, but for most professional jobs, the academic mindset, the analytical and critical thinking skills are way more important than very specific factual knowledge.

Historiography was possibly the most interesting and useful class I took in grad school - thinking about thinking is a valuable long term skill.

And I’ll say it again - my dd has an undergraduate degree in English and a graduate degree in theology. She’s a technical writer for a medical software company, and they recruited her. There aren’t nearly as many English majors as people imagine there to be, either.

BigIslandGuy

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #234 on: December 19, 2019, 11:02:09 AM »
I work for a subprime auto lender and as an email administrator, I see lots of email traffic both from employees and customers. I can share that ALOT of people are living far beyond their means and are living paycheck to paycheck yet on the surface have outrageously nice lifestyles. They are on borrowed time, for sure.

mm1970

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #235 on: December 19, 2019, 11:46:21 AM »
This is also true at the University of Minnesota.  It would be incredibly rare for a student to do two years at a CC and finish at the U in an additional two.  That's partly because the average time to degree at the U is 6-7 years, partly because the student will come from CC underprepared, and partly because for a variety of reasons both academic and personal they have a low likelihood of consistently completing 16-20 credits each semester.

The possibility of spending two years at a CC and completing a bachelors degree in an additional two from an even mildly selective university in a moderately demanding field is mostly a myth.  Not that there aren't a handful of people who have done it, but they're unicorns.  I would never advise a person I cared about and thought had real potential to try to save money by going to a CC and then transferring to a good university.

Exactly! Even schools that deliberately try to funnel students to the U do a terrible job of it these days. I'll be honest, my FIL did this (Century to U, biology and chemistry) in the 1970s, but it's not possible anymore. The rigor isn't there at the CCs. Century, Inver Hills, HCTC all have 3 credit-hour intro physics/bio courses. The U requires 4 credit hour. There's probably an argument to be made about who caused the disconnect (lack of rigor vs deliberately changing requirements), but it's there.
This is not the case where I am in California.  It's quite common to transfer from CC to UC or CSU, and there are specific pathways (and guarantees of the transfer, depending on the grades) for this.

Of course, our local CC is one of the top ones in the nation.

sabanist

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #236 on: December 24, 2019, 06:44:48 PM »
This is also true at the University of Minnesota.  It would be incredibly rare for a student to do two years at a CC and finish at the U in an additional two.  That's partly because the average time to degree at the U is 6-7 years, partly because the student will come from CC underprepared, and partly because for a variety of reasons both academic and personal they have a low likelihood of consistently completing 16-20 credits each semester.

The possibility of spending two years at a CC and completing a bachelors degree in an additional two from an even mildly selective university in a moderately demanding field is mostly a myth.  Not that there aren't a handful of people who have done it, but they're unicorns.  I would never advise a person I cared about and thought had real potential to try to save money by going to a CC and then transferring to a good university.

Exactly! Even schools that deliberately try to funnel students to the U do a terrible job of it these days. I'll be honest, my FIL did this (Century to U, biology and chemistry) in the 1970s, but it's not possible anymore. The rigor isn't there at the CCs. Century, Inver Hills, HCTC all have 3 credit-hour intro physics/bio courses. The U requires 4 credit hour. There's probably an argument to be made about who caused the disconnect (lack of rigor vs deliberately changing requirements), but it's there.
This is not the case where I am in California.  It's quite common to transfer from CC to UC or CSU, and there are specific pathways (and guarantees of the transfer, depending on the grades) for this.

Of course, our local CC is one of the top ones in the nation.

In florida, a person can get a bachelors at all community colleges.  And if they want to tranfer to the university, all credits transfer if they were on the AS or AA path.  AAS credits do not all transfer and are meant for students entering the work force after their 2 years. 

I don't think there is a reason to pay premium prices for college, at least none to complain about because they are a choice.  If its too expensive in your own state, numerous states offer an out of state exemption.  Take Mississippi.  Most of their universities will waive out of state tuition for students with a 3.0 gpa and a certain test score. 

Then there is living at home and going to cc.  My son started at cc here in florida and I had 24K saved for his college.  3 years later now he has finished 2 years (currently doing his reserve military training).  His college fund is right at 20k due to market changes while he was in college.  He will finish at FSU when he returns and get the GI bill, a monthly drill check, and still have over 20k in his 529.  He should graduate debt free. 

Miss Prim

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #237 on: December 26, 2019, 05:43:59 AM »
Interesting articles.  I think a lot of this conspicuous consumption is also related to self-esteem issues.  I have seen it over the years in my family.  My two brothers were always spenders and I was always a saver.  My one sister-in-law had a rough childhood and is the one I think has low self-esteem.  She had to be driving Lincolns and wearing designer clothing though out her working years.  Her husband, my brother, always liked to call us cheap!  We didn't care, 'cause my husband and I both have good self esteem and had set goals of saving in order to have a good retirement.  So, we would just basically "laugh all the way to the bank" when he would make fun of us for buying old cars and shopping at thrift stores. 

Now we retired a little bit earlier than normal and my brothers are still working and wondering when they can retire.  We are travelling to places like Europe and renting a place down in Florida for the winter months.  We are doing whatever we want to.  And yes, we still like to go to thrift stores, but we did buy a vehicle that wasn't used, but plan to keep for many years. 

Whenever I see someone with fancy cars and huge houses, I just see a lot of debt and heartache down the road.

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Dicey

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #238 on: December 26, 2019, 01:56:20 PM »
I'm not a fan of IKEA stores. They skeeve me out. What I do like is their crazy product names.  Makes it easy to search CL for deals on second-hand stuff. There's only one IKEA thing in my house that was purchased new, and that was for my MIL's room and needed to be a specific size. Well, I don't have much else from there, but what there is was acquired via CL.

When I worked at Nordstrom, I got a screaming deal on a gold Raymond Weil watch. I loved it and wore it every day. Since I retired, it's been sitting in the box in the back of a drawer. I dont even break it out for special occasions. Makes me glad I never succumbed to the siren call of a Cartier Tank Watch. I did buy a Burberry trench coat from an actual Burberry store, because they carried tall sizes. A few years later, I took up yoga, my shoulders expanded and it never fit again. Somehow i managed to scratch a few itches and still make it to FIRE.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 10:03:51 PM by Dicey »

habanero

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #239 on: January 03, 2020, 05:15:22 AM »
I'm not a fan of IKEA stores. They skeeve me out. What I do like is their crazy product names. 

The names of IKEA products are generally swedish/scandinavian names of persons (not famous, just random names),places in Scandinavia or various stuff. Apparantly there is actually some logic to it:

https://qz.com/896146/how-ikea-names-its-products-the-curious-taxonomy-behind-billy-poang-malm-kallax-and-rens/

Reading strange-sounding Swedish words is part of the joy of shopping at IKEA. Within the labyrinth of stylish flat pack furniture is a pänoply of ödd, åccented pröduct nämes, printed on hang tags, walls and banners. What most shoppers don’t know is that the names of those 12,000 products conform to a strict internal logic that offers a peek into Scandinavian culture.
...
The rules for naming were devised by IKEA’s founder Ingvar Kamprad, who struggled with dyslexia and had trouble remembering the order of numbers in item codes. The name IKEA itself is acronym for Ingvar, Kamprad, Elmtaryd (his family’s farm) and Agunnaryd (the village in Småland where he grew up in).

...

Bathroom articles = Names of Swedish lakes and bodies of water
Bed textiles = Flowers and plants
Beds, wardrobes, hall furniture = Norwegian place names
Bookcases = Professions, Scandinavian boy’s names
Bowls, vases, candle and candle holders = Swedish place names, adjectives, spices, herbs, fruits and berries
Boxes, wall decoration, pictures and frames, clocks = Swedish slang expressions, Swedish place names
Children’s products = Mammals, birds, adjectives
Desks, chairs and swivel chairs = Scandinavian boy’s names
Fabrics, curtains = Scandinavian girl’s names
Garden furniture = Scandinavian islands
Kitchen accessories = Fish, mushrooms and adjectives
Lighting = Units of measurement, seasons, months, days, shipping and nautical terms, Swedish place names
Rugs = Danish place names
Sofas, armchairs, chairs and dining tables = Swedish place names

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #240 on: January 03, 2020, 12:01:32 PM »
I do believe that we’re going to be a lot like the people we hang out with. Amongst most of my social circle, scoring a deal and living frugally are very desirable.

I think we just assume that someone who is living a flashy lifestyle is doing it through debt. To the extent that my kids refer to newish cars as “debt-mobiles.”  My friends tend to fix their own stuff, grow gardens, brew their own, and know where the thrift shop deals are to be found.

rothwem

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Re: NYT: &quot;Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?&quot;
« Reply #241 on: January 03, 2020, 01:15:51 PM »
I do find some amusement listening to some of their friends complain about the $700 it costs to service their new BMW..:)

I love BMWs, but the owner “community” leaves a bit to be desired. Most of the time, I’ve found that people complaining about their expensive car bills are just humble bragging.

“Gah! I bought this expensive car because I make so much money, and now my expensive car is causing me to use the large piles of money I make! Good thing I have a big income! Admire me!”

OtherJen

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Re: NYT: &quot;Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?&quot;
« Reply #242 on: January 03, 2020, 02:31:27 PM »
I do find some amusement listening to some of their friends complain about the $700 it costs to service their new BMW..:)

I love BMWs, but the owner “community” leaves a bit to be desired. Most of the time, I’ve found that people complaining about their expensive car bills are just humble bragging.

“Gah! I bought this expensive car because I make so much money, and now my expensive car is causing me to use the large piles of money I make! Good thing I have a big income! Admire me!”

Haha, yes! We have friends who complain similarly about their clown houses.

dragoncar

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #243 on: January 03, 2020, 02:44:46 PM »
I shake my head at attorneys who study for seven years, rack up the debt but then take a public job making less than a trades person with a few years of experience, no debt and better hours.

A public job is a public service.  Do you also shake your head at teachers who could have been plumbers instead?

Laura33

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #244 on: January 03, 2020, 02:51:49 PM »
My DD is home from college for break, and she is telling me that all the girls there are wearing these golden goose shoes -- I, of course, had never heard of them, but it's apparently this:  https://shop.nordstrom.com/brands/golden-goose--8437.  I thought she was asking for a pair -- but no, turns out she was horrified by the very idea of shoes that cost that much.  I feel good that I have done at least one thing right as a parent.  ;-)

Meanwhile, I can't help but think how these parents afford shoes like that while they're paying college tuitions -- because I know what that school costs (and they don't give a lot of merit aid), I know what I make, and I sure as hell would never outfit my kid in $500 tennis shoes (and, presumably, all the other high-end clothes that go with it).  Wonder how many of those parents/kids took out loans to pay for school or are complaining about how crappy their financial aid package was. . . . 

Just Joe

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #245 on: January 03, 2020, 02:59:00 PM »
Then there is living at home and going to cc.  My son started at cc here in florida and I had 24K saved for his college.  3 years later now he has finished 2 years (currently doing his reserve military training).  His college fund is right at 20k due to market changes while he was in college.  He will finish at FSU when he returns and get the GI bill, a monthly drill check, and still have over 20k in his 529.  He should graduate debt free.

That's doing it right.

TomTX

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #246 on: January 03, 2020, 03:42:45 PM »
My DD is home from college for break, and she is telling me that all the girls there are wearing these golden goose shoes -- I, of course, had never heard of them, but it's apparently this:  https://shop.nordstrom.com/brands/golden-goose--8437.  I thought she was asking for a pair -- but no, turns out she was horrified by the very idea of shoes that cost that much.  I feel good that I have done at least one thing right as a parent.  ;-)

Good for you!

I followed the link and it looks like the $500 tennis shoes are also pre-scuffed. Heck, I've got some scuffed tennis shoes I'll let go for a mere $200!

DadJokes

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #247 on: January 03, 2020, 06:46:13 PM »
I shake my head at attorneys who study for seven years, rack up the debt but then take a public job making less than a trades person with a few years of experience, no debt and better hours.

A public job is a public service.  Do you also shake your head at teachers who could have been plumbers instead?

Yes. Maybe not plumbers, but that's probably sexist of me.

My wife is a teacher, and she definitely wishes that she had gotten a degree that would have led to a higher income.

LearnTo

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #248 on: January 03, 2020, 07:09:18 PM »
My DD is home from college for break, and she is telling me that all the girls there are wearing these golden goose shoes -- I, of course, had never heard of them, but it's apparently this:  https://shop.nordstrom.com/brands/golden-goose--8437.  I thought she was asking for a pair -- but no, turns out she was horrified by the very idea of shoes that cost that much.  I feel good that I have done at least one thing right as a parent.  ;-)

Good for you!

I followed the link and it looks like the $500 tennis shoes are also pre-scuffed. Heck, I've got some scuffed tennis shoes I'll let go for a mere $200!

I'd never heard of them either.  Ugly!!  But of course that's not the point.

dragoncar

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Re: NYT: "Wait a Minute. How Can They Afford That When I Can’t?"
« Reply #249 on: January 03, 2020, 08:36:51 PM »
I shake my head at attorneys who study for seven years, rack up the debt but then take a public job making less than a trades person with a few years of experience, no debt and better hours.

A public job is a public service.  Do you also shake your head at teachers who could have been plumbers instead?

Yes. Maybe not plumbers, but that's probably sexist of me.

My wife is a teacher, and she definitely wishes that she had gotten a degree that would have led to a higher income.

Why can’t a man be a plumber?