Author Topic: Now THIS scares the crap out of me  (Read 7256 times)

OzzieandHarriet

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Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« on: June 07, 2018, 12:03:13 PM »
I had heard of this years ago, well before I read this article, but it IS scary. Does anyone know what one can do to protect oneself?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights

phred

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2018, 12:19:40 PM »
Not only scary, but an age-old problem.  Aside from having assets in a foreign trust, I have no idea

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2018, 12:28:32 PM »
Maybe I should move this to the general discussion board ... yes?

phred

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2018, 12:32:21 PM »
sounds like a good idea

terran

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2018, 12:52:39 PM »
Wow, that's messed up!

Seems like practicing stealth wealth would be one aspect of it as it sounds like they target people they believe to be wealthy.

Quote
Belshe guesses that Parks—or whichever doctor or social worker referred her to the Norths—had assumed that her parents were wealthier than they actually were. Rudy often talked vaguely about deals he had once made in China. “He exaggerates, so he won’t feel emasculated,” Belshe said. “He wasn’t such a big businessman, but he was a great dad.”

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2018, 01:00:39 PM »
I did find this article, which offers some practical suggestions (pasted below):

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/court-appointed-guardian-system-failing-elderly_us_59d3f70be4b06226e3f44d4e

How to protect yourself and your loved ones.
Teaster says the system needs greater oversight. While you are waiting for that to happen, here are a few things that Eric Goldberg, a certified elder law attorney and co-founder of Goldberg Law Group, suggests: 

Execute a comprehensive power of attorney that includes the ability of the person you choose to both manage your money if you become incapacitated and assume the role of your guardian if necessary. If a family member isn’t suitable or available, this can be a lawyer.

Execute a comprehensive health care power of attorney that allows your chosen representative to make all health care decisions if you are incapacitated.

 Review these documents often in regard to the age of your representative and any changes that may have occurred in that person’s life, such as a bankruptcy, illegal activity, divorce, lawsuits, fiscal irresponsibility or changes in your relationship.

Submit these documents to the appropriate parties before it becomes necessary. Ask banks and other financial institutions to examine the power of attorney and authorize it while you are still healthy. Ask if your bank has its own proprietary power of attorney. Ask doctors and local hospitals if the medical directives and health care power of attorney are acceptable. 

And then do it all over again. Goldberg says it’s important to re-execute powers of attorney every few years. Despite federal and state law, many financial institutions claim that a power of attorney becomes stale after some arbitrary period of time. Having newer documents that reflect the same wishes as those contained in older documents is wise.

Keep originals in fireproof cabinets and PDF copies electronically. An attorney can also keep copies.

hadabeardonce

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2018, 01:06:30 PM »
John Oliver recently did a segment on Last Week Tonight about guardianship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG2pEffLEJo


fuzzy math

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2018, 01:28:36 PM »
There was a prior thread about this that I believe contained the article title in the thread title if you want to search for it. Definitely an eye opening read. I am currently reading Being Mortal by Atul gawande and it's about how to handle healthcare and living arrangements for the elderly

TheWifeHalf

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2018, 01:33:36 PM »
Until my aunt died, she and her husband ran a coffee shop, owned by the city I think. They did it because there is some rule that has to do with the blind working there, but I do not know the specifics.
Then, my aunt died and I guess the owner?manager? decided it was finally time to make her move.

After awhile she, I'll call her Bev but I know that is not her name, thought it was time for her to be my uncle's guardian.  He worked in the shop and all I ever heard was that he was acting a bit obsessive about my aunts things. He kept her closet the way it was , it had been over 10 years since  her death. and just had trouble letting her, or her things, go. He was not poor, but not rich, just kind of average I suppose.

So, there was a court hearing to give her guardianship, and I don't know how my cousins found out, (maybe they have to be notified?) but all 3 of his kids were there.
The judge told Bev that he had 3 competent, loving kids, who took an active part in their Dad's life, he does NOT need a guardian!

tralfamadorian

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2018, 02:02:52 PM »
There was a really good discussion about this article/topic a few months back. I can't find it right now (damn you search!) but maybe someone else can.

FiveSigmas

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2018, 04:51:10 PM »
There was a really good discussion about this article/topic a few months back. I can't find it right now (damn you search!) but maybe someone else can.

Is this the thread?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/scary-article-about-'how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights'/

BTW: ARS has some tips for searching in the forums:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/the-forum-'search'-feature/

The built-in forum search function is terrible. Unless you're searching for a particular user or in a particular sub-forum, you're much better off using Google with "site:forum.mrmmoneymustache" tag.

FiveSigmas

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2018, 04:59:18 PM »
So, there was a court hearing to give her guardianship, and I don't know how my cousins found out, (maybe they have to be notified?) but all 3 of his kids were there.
The judge told Bev that he had 3 competent, loving kids, who took an active part in their Dad's life, he does NOT need a guardian!

Very glad to hear the crisis was averted TWH! This seems like another compelling illustration of the importance of strong ties to friends and family.

BFGirl

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2018, 07:07:21 AM »
Executing powers of attorney and other planning documents are the best way to keep from having a guardianship.  Also, there may be a document that you can designate in advance who you would like your guradian (and who you don't) to be if you become incapacitated in the future.  Make sure you have frank discussions with your loved ones and that you give them and financial institutions copies of powers of attorney.

If there is a lot of family discord, you might contemplate designating someone trustworthy outside of the family as your POA.

A lot of guardians are trying to help people, but the bad ones are really bad.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2018, 08:06:26 AM »
Fittingly, April Parks, the villain in the Times article, is now also a ward of the state as she sits in jail with over 200 felony charges against her.
https://www.ktnv.com/news/las-vegas-police-officer-april-parks-others-indicted-in-guardianship-case

dude

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2018, 08:06:42 AM »
That is the most disturbing thing I've read in a very long time. It made my blood boil. I want to execute fuckers like that judge Norheim, that predacious bitch Parks, and that sociopath Shafer. I seriously want people like that dead. I would love to see some vigilante justice for these cocksuckers.

katsiki

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2018, 04:40:34 PM »
Executing powers of attorney and other planning documents are the best way to keep from having a guardianship.  Also, there may be a document that you can designate in advance who you would like your guradian (and who you don't) to be if you become incapacitated in the future.  Make sure you have frank discussions with your loved ones and that you give them and financial institutions copies of powers of attorney.

Can someone familiar advise what legal measures can be taken to prevent this?

cosine88

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2018, 10:11:32 AM »
This is why my uncle, upon retirement at 50, put himself through law school and now works as a strictly pro-bono attorney helping senior citizens.

Us millenials have it rough in terms of housing costs and asset inflation relative to wages; but sadly so many of them also cope with it by taking advantage of their relatives.

BFGirl

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 07:00:38 AM »
Executing powers of attorney and other planning documents are the best way to keep from having a guardianship.  Also, there may be a document that you can designate in advance who you would like your guradian (and who you don't) to be if you become incapacitated in the future.  Make sure you have frank discussions with your loved ones and that you give them and financial institutions copies of powers of attorney.

Can someone familiar advise what legal measures can be taken to prevent this?

Edited to add:  I've been dealing with guardianship since 1994 and exclusively since 2003.

Go talk to any attorney about powers of attorney, advanced directives and possibly trusts.  Those are the best way to keep from having a guardian appointed.  However, a guardian could still be appointed if in the future you develop a mental incapacity (due to dementia, stroke, accident, etc.) and your planning documents are not sufficient to keep others from exploiting you (e.g., you are impaired and an unscrupulous family member or caregiver takes you to an attorney and gets you to sign new documents).

A lot of states are looking at guardianship more closely due to some of these egregious abuses and are requiring more oversight and stricter requirements to get a guardianship in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 07:07:51 AM by BFGirl »

katsiki

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2018, 09:07:14 AM »
Executing powers of attorney and other planning documents are the best way to keep from having a guardianship.  Also, there may be a document that you can designate in advance who you would like your guradian (and who you don't) to be if you become incapacitated in the future.  Make sure you have frank discussions with your loved ones and that you give them and financial institutions copies of powers of attorney.

Can someone familiar advise what legal measures can be taken to prevent this?

Edited to add:  I've been dealing with guardianship since 1994 and exclusively since 2003.

Go talk to any attorney about powers of attorney, advanced directives and possibly trusts.  Those are the best way to keep from having a guardian appointed.  However, a guardian could still be appointed if in the future you develop a mental incapacity (due to dementia, stroke, accident, etc.) and your planning documents are not sufficient to keep others from exploiting you (e.g., you are impaired and an unscrupulous family member or caregiver takes you to an attorney and gets you to sign new documents).

A lot of states are looking at guardianship more closely due to some of these egregious abuses and are requiring more oversight and stricter requirements to get a guardianship in the first place.

Thank you, @BFGirl !!

Exflyboy

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 12:44:17 AM »
My God you have to be fucking kidding me!

Dicey

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Re: Now THIS scares the crap out of me
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 07:24:49 AM »
This is why my uncle, upon retirement at 50, put himself through law school and now works as a strictly pro-bono attorney helping senior citizens.
What a mensch! Go, cosine88's uncle!