Non Recurring Expenses----uuuggghhh!

[tooqk4u22]

They are driving me nuts....it seems like (because it actually is) these non-recurring expenses are very much recurring every f'in month with multiple ones in months. Things like

- HVAC repair (I am sure I will need a new system within a 1 to 3 years)
- car maintenance (brakes, tires, sensors, etc)
- dental bills (root canal, cavities, other)
- braces with much more expected
- medical (infection, prescription, blood work)
- washer crapped out

In aggregate these things are awfully recurring with big costs.  I budget for these non-recurring expenses and shift a certain amount into a separate account to smooth out the expenses but they don't seem to stop - I guess this is the peril of a family of five and having stuff (cars/house). 

I am still working so no big deal, but it adds to the stress/uncertainty about being ready to FIRE. 

Hopefully this will subside and get back to a more normal average (ie not much comes up in following year(s). 

Anybody else struggle or go through these cycles?

[Miss Piggy]

Look at the bright side: they're not recurring.

[AlwaysBeenASaver]

Use the opportunity to carefully track these expenses so you can average them out over say 5 years, then you know how much to budget for them when you FIRE.

[wenchsenior]

Oh yeah. This year, it's been mostly a cash flow problem, rather than the bills actually being overwhelming in and of themselves.

Not including our 500k/month premium, we have spent about 3K on mostly very basic health care this year already, and I expect to spend 5K-10K more over the rest of the year.

Our 'beta' house required about 4K of necessary repairs/upgrades this year. I had the cash ready, but now it's gone and I don't have that pool to facilitate cash-flow bumps for other stuff.

This is occurring at the same time as several family related, unexpected trips (plane tickets, rental cars, hotels) are either planned or looking likely.

My husband had an unexpectedly field work heavy schedule starting in March that is regularly taking him all over our region. We pay out of pocket for travel. Though he is then reimbursed for many expenses, the reimbursements lag about 2 months behind. So between renting vehicles (sometimes multiple large vans/suv types) for travel almost weekly, massive gasoline bills, hotels, eating out on the road, etc., we've been running about about 1.5x our standard monthly budgets for the past 4 months.

Finally, this happened to occur only 6 months after I committed to investing an additional $1,000 biweekly...I have refused to stop, even as our cash flow got tighter. However, I think we might have reached the end of the line with that, and I will have to reduce or skip payments for a few months to see if we can build up cash again.

It sucks. I know it's not permanent, but still....

[thd7t]

There are a lot of people who view tracking expenses as a waste of time, but this is where you can get a great benefit from it. It takes a lot of data to smooth out random/nonrecurring expenses, but you can greatly reduce the uncertainty.

[wenchsenior]

There are a lot of people who view tracking expenses as a waste of time, but this is where you can get a great benefit from it. It takes a lot of data to smooth out random/nonrecurring expenses, but you can greatly reduce the uncertainty.

I totally agree. We don't 'budget', but tracking every penny of spending by category helped us get on top of our finances like nothing else.

[Frankies Girl]

Yup. I tracked them for several years and knew we'd be lucky to get away with any year that didn't have thousands spent on random occurrences.

This year it was the roof so that blew our average expected expenditure for non-reoccurring items up over the original number. But I also know I'll not have to worry about the stupid roof for decades (other than when a hurricane comes through or other acts of god stuff). So there's that anyway. But we also had a random "hey you have termites too" when we were redoing the roof so tack on an extra $500 (fine, whatever) but it was the surprise aspect that really upset me. Sigh.

Last year, had plumbing issues, flat tire twice in a 24 hour period, medical stuff, veterinarian stuff, and other random crap all pile on within a 2 month period.

Life is random. And stuff breaks or needs attention in clusters in my experience, so I do tend to stress out more when it is all happening, but it's not because of the money thank goodness. I just don't worry about that aspect since I already knew we've got that stuff built into the budget.

[big_slacker]

I think this is called 'life', are these really stressing you? That's what savings (non investment savings) are for. So you can write a check and move on. :D

[redcedar]

You could budget for Misc or Stuff or even Non Recurring Frustrating Crap. If something becomes recurring, move it out to its own category.

I did this about five years ago and after a few fortunate years of lower than expected Misc items, I now have a "fully funded" Misc bucket of money. Well, fully funded until I hit a streak of a few bad years in a row.

[tonysemail]

yup, i've had a year of face punch worthy "one time" expenses.

The home repairs and dental bills really irk me :(

[2Birds1Stone]

Sounds like poor planning, these certainly are recurring expenses. I would recommend a sinking fund for these larger, less frequent recurring expenses.

[thd7t]

yup, i've had a year of face punch worthy "one time" expenses.

The home repairs and dental bills really irk me :(

I don't think that expensive and face punch worthy are always the same thing. Were they unnecessary?

[Guses]

If you learn to DIY most of these, you can avoid the cost crunch. Instead it becomes a question of time management.

Obviously, dentistry may not be the place to start, but I digress.

[nottoolatetostart]

As others said, it is called life. It feels like it happens to one degree or another every single month over at my house. Sorry you are getting a bad load this month already!

We use YNAB and set aside money for these various things every single month. All that sh## is expensive, but it makes me feel good that if we keep chugging along, the money will be there (yes, even a new roof despite the fact that we just put a new one on), without having to touch our long term savings. It's an annoyance instead of cash flow situation.

[tooqk4u22]

I think this is called 'life', are these really stressing you? That's what savings (non investment savings) are for. So you can write a check and move on. :D

I know its life and its not stressing me per se....have the money, wrote the checks, no big deal.....but there have been so many and just makes me rethink what is needed in FIRE or maybe more about my emotional tolerance for this stuff.

Sounds like poor planning, these certainly are recurring expenses. I would recommend a sinking fund for these larger, less frequent recurring expenses.

I don't think so, as I said I budget for it and put it in a sinking fund (at least for home and car repairs) but when it all comes over a shorter period and you drain your sinking fund and amounts well beyond that then it makes you think.   Now on the other hand, it should subside for a while so it averages out (except for the HVAC going and braces which are pretty quantifiable but just not sure when it will happen).....medical on the other hand who the F knows....guess you have to assume you will use your full deductible every year and then some. 

If you learn to DIY most of these, you can avoid the cost crunch. Instead it becomes a question of time management.

Obviously, dentistry may not be the place to start, but I digress.

I do a lot of DIY....except medical, tires* (not hard to do but don't have a machine for it ), dental, braces.   HVAC may be DIY but might be beyond me and the recent service required recharging the Freon so can't do that DIY. The washer was not repairable....actually it was but the parts (primarily due drums which got shredded when the bearings went) were about 70% of a new one.

Yeah so pretty much everything wasn't DIY other than the brakes, which I have done in the past but not this time given ridiculous schedules making the extra $100 worth it to me......two months earlier I would have done it myself.

* I did buy used but almost new tires though so that saved some coin.

[tooqk4u22]

Oh yeah. This year, it's been mostly a cash flow problem, rather than the bills actually being overwhelming in and of themselves.

Not including our 500k/month premium, we have spent about 3K on mostly very basic health care this year already, and I expect to spend 5K-10K more over the rest of the year.

Our 'beta' house required about 4K of necessary repairs/upgrades this year. I had the cash ready, but now it's gone and I don't have that pool to facilitate cash-flow bumps for other stuff.

This is occurring at the same time as several family related, unexpected trips (plane tickets, rental cars, hotels) are either planned or looking likely.


It sucks. I know it's not permanent, but still....

I think this is also part of the angst....it is all coming at the time of year when a number of other larger expenses come due....home & auto insurance, taxes, dues for kids activities, etc.....all of which are known and planned for but lumped all together....as I said ugghhh.  Whatever, 1st world problems.

[big_owl]

Welcome to the world!  This is exactly why I like a large emergency fund and generally disagree with most mustacheans on the recommended fund size.

[tipster350]

"I know its life and its not stressing me per se....have the money, wrote the checks, no big deal.....but there have been so many and just makes me rethink what is needed in FIRE or maybe more about my emotional tolerance for this stuff.

That is a very good idea. In my opinion, many on here underestimate their FIRE needs. Without experiencing some phases of life, it is easy to underestimate how much it will cost for "life". Better to be awakened by the information and plan accordingly rather than finding out after pulling the plug that costs are more than anticipated.

[elaine amj]

I know its life and its not stressing me per se....have the money, wrote the checks, no big deal.....but there have been so many and just makes me rethink what is needed in FIRE or maybe more about my emotional tolerance for this stuff.

Good point. I was actually hopeful of FIRE around now but DH asked for another 2-3 years so still working. In hopes of this, I started tracking expenses for the first time last October. Oh boy has this year been a doozie!! Several (predictable) car repairs, new tires will be needed soon, had some water damage in the basement and ended up redoing an entire room, completely unexpected medical expenses, tax reassessments (had to pay back $7k!). This added up to about $17k or so. That would be a giant chunk of my original FIRE budget of about $46k/year.

We never worried in the slightest about these types of expenses in the past - until now that I'm looking at it from a FIRE point of view.

[Genevieve]

Ugh that sucks!

Most of the cost and annoyance of these things comes from having unreliable cars, washers, etc. Yeah life happens, but Hondas need a lot less maintenance than German sports cars. So if it makes you feel better, just think to yourself: by doing the right thing now and ponying up the money/time, I'm saving future maintenance costs and repair time.

[tooqk4u22]

Ugh that sucks!

Most of the cost and annoyance of these things comes from having unreliable cars, washers, etc. Yeah life happens, but Hondas need a lot less maintenance than German sports cars. So if it makes you feel better, just think to yourself: by doing the right thing now and ponying up the money/time, I'm saving future maintenance costs and repair time.

You do realize that new cars/washers become old (maybe unreliable) over time - right?  At some point things need repairing or replacing.  It just sucks when a lot of it breaks down in a single year. Also, my Honda is what needed the repair ;) 

[WildJager]

Start using your time now while still working to start developing skills that will save money down the line.  For example, my wife and I (after a long enough trial period were we knew we'd be comfortable with it) reduced ourselves down to a single car.  I elected to keep our Ford Ranger instead of our Nissan sedan because I've found that the Ford is frankly easier to work on (plus we can haul shit, which is the main reason we use the truck instead of our bikes).  I'm no car expert, but I'm slowly learning more and more by just tackling the maintenance projects myself that I would have in the past taken the vehicle into a shop for.  When I get to a point where I don't have the skills yet to do it, I bring it in, but that's the value of learning now.  I have a job that can buffer my lack of knowledge.

Once I retire, my intent is to (to the extent that is practically possible) do-it-yourself for any problems that arise.  The saving grace being that I'll have much more time (and energy!) when I don't have a work obligation to attend.  A lot of "emergency expenses" that we see in the first world are actually just a lack of skill and time to tackle life problems.  I have ingrained myself so far into the mindset that I almost enjoy when things break, so I have the opportunity to learn something new.

Obviously this doesn't apply to medical, so that still has to be budgeted, but plumbing/electrical work/car maintenance... those aren't impossible skills to learn.  The accepted anecdote around here is cooking.  Cooking does not have to be outsourced... that is an easily learnable skill.  It only takes time and motivation.

[Cassie]

When you have 3 kids you have expenses.  I know from personal experiences but it sucks when it happens all at once. Make sure your FIRE budget is big enough to handle all of this.

[Altons Bobs]

I expect them, so no struggle.

[ender]

All of your "unexpected" expenses look fairly expected to me.

I expect houses/cars/bodies to require maintenance.

[Rosy]

Stuff like that always seems to happen in waves - great, you got the mullah to handle it, so roll with it. You do have a point about re-visiting the amounts needed for life's little emergencies, whether expected or unexpected.
I always thought 5K was fine and recently found that we needed at least 10K plus, so yeah, I'm re-adjusting my earlier numbers. No harm - no foul and a lot to be grateful for - we can all handle the expenses.
It's a good thing and in some ways a practice run - maybe you need to bolster to feel better about the future, so that next time around it is no more than a blip on your financial radar.

[Bajadoc]

Learn to do your own root canals, you will save a fortune. Just kidding. An emergency fund is really a "life fund." It needs to be bigger and more disposable than you think. Just make sure you don't have to borrow at high interested rates (credit cards) for this normal stuff.

[Genevieve]

Ugh that sucks!

Most of the cost and annoyance of these things comes from having unreliable cars, washers, etc. Yeah life happens, but Hondas need a lot less maintenance than German sports cars. So if it makes you feel better, just think to yourself: by doing the right thing now and ponying up the money/time, I'm saving future maintenance costs and repair time.

You do realize that new cars/washers become old (maybe unreliable) over time - right?  At some point things need repairing or replacing.  It just sucks when a lot of it breaks down in a single year. Also, my Honda is what needed the repair ;)

Yah, life happens.

But you could have chosen something new and unreliable, too, and I assume you didn't.

So my point was: Pat yourself on the back for good choices that either 1) minimize repair/replacement expense or 2) minimize repair time or 3) both.

[mpg350]

Those are just bills the are part of life... maintenance for your body (teeth) and car and home.
Sorry you can't get around those things in general.

As long as you didn't get into debt for any of those things consider yourself blessed.

I mean I understand it can be stressing when your trying to save especially when like it all seems to fall within a month or two...but I usually figure a few of these things are going to happen every year.

[Miss Prim]

This is why I didn't want to FIRE on a bare-bones budget.  I saved enough to comfortably withdraw 3% or less, because life happens and if large expenses happen, I can always to go 4% for a year and then back down the next.  Actually, before retiring, our rental property was my emergency fund.  We always put the rent into our savings account and didn't use it for day-to-day expenses, only emergency and of course for maintenance on the property itself.  There was always enough money in there to fund any kind of major expense that our budget couldn't handle. 

My husband's business account for his small office cleaning business also had to have a lot of money in it because he was paid 60 days out for his major contract and had to pay his workers every week.  So, I guess we have always been used to having a larger than normal checking and savings accounts.  That's why Mint doesn't really work very well for me because a lot of time, I have more money going out than coming in!  I don't use it as a budget tool, I just use it so I have a quick way to check my investments, credit card bills and bank statements.  It works great as a consolidation tool so I don't have to go to all the individual sites.  Budgets never worked for me,  I just tried to live as frugally as possible and socked away as much as I could!

I guess the only advice I can give you is not to retire on a bare-bones budget.  Wait until you have some wiggle room to go between 2 and 4% to pay for those unexpected expenses.

                                                                             Miss Prim

[Scandium]

I also find these types of expenses manageable, but annoying. And I wonder how to factor them into a FIRE budget to find our spending requirement, and thus SWR. Some large ones I've taken out of the end-of-year Mint analysis, but I wonder if I should.

Is $14k on a car a one-time expense, or do I average it out over 10 years or so for budgeting purposes? But hopefully we'll get a cheaper one next time. Just in the last 3-4 years we've spent ~$20k on house maintenance and upgrades (inc. HVAC, hardwood floors). Will we be free of this for a long time now, or do we need to budget some amount per year? But I'm unsure how much. We're not replacing the floors again for decades, if ever. But there's the roof.. If I'm very conservative it's very easy to end  up with a FIRE "budget" of $100,000/year, just to cover every eventuality.

I general, and also because of these kinds of expense, my wife is very risk-averse so I don't actually think she'd be comfortable retiring early even with 2-3% WR, no matter what I show her. She will always say "what if X happens and we need $35,000?!" or something. So I definitely need to get solid numbers on this and be able to (try to..) make the case we'll be ok.

[golden1]

I hear you, I feel like I am in a recurring cycle where I build an emergency fund, and then it will just get decimated down to nothing with, well....emergencies.  It's frustrating, but I realized a little while ago that the frustration was wasted energy because these bills were going to happen anyway, so I just take a deep breath, pay the bills, and make adjustments.  I think that most people on this forum keep their lifestyle affordable to the point that they will just have a lower savings rate for a few months instead of it being a dire emergency.   What I had to break myself of doing is setting up my budget only for the best case scenario because every time I failed to meet the target, I just felt like a failure and then I get demotivated. 

[HipGnosis]

In my opinion, many on here underestimate their FIRE needs. Without experiencing some phases of life, it is easy to underestimate how much it will cost for "life". Better to be awakened by the information and plan accordingly rather than finding out after pulling the plug that costs are more than anticipated.

This.
This is why I;
Don't budget.  The cost of Life is always changing.  So many variables. 
Track my expenses (aka spending) to know how much it costs and have a rough plan.  I use 4 credit cards for specific things to maximize my rewards and track expenses.
Have an operating (aka life) fund instead of an emergency fund.  These facets of life are not emergencies.  They would be if I didn't have the funds.

[Duchess of Stratosphear]

I had this happen this year too. My little emergency fund is pretty much wiped out after a car repair and a big vet bill, etc. In a way, I guess it's good that it happened now so I can re-evaluate how I save for this kind of thing. I'm still 10-11 years out from when I'd like to stop working. Good luck!

[geekinprogress]

Yeah, in the past year I've had to replace the AC and furnace at my place....and yesterday the water heater died.  I'm stressing a little about it.  I've got the cash so it'll be ok but it has been weighing on my mind.

One thing I've started doing in my expenses tracking is that I have a column that calculates average monthly expenses over the last 6mos, one that calculates average monthly expenses over the last 12 months....and now I'm thinking that maybe I'll add one for average monthly expenses over 24 or 36 months. 

[tooqk4u22]

The comments seem to be either its life/you don't what you are doing or its life/I can relate but things happen more randomly so have an emergency fund.  I wonder if there is a correlation between the similar comments on each side and stage of life, family or not, home or not, etc. 

All of your "unexpected" expenses look fairly expected to me.

I expect houses/cars/bodies to require maintenance.

I agree that they are all expected, but I said they were non-recurring not unexpected.  It is the timing that is difficult to nail down. If I expect these things to happen but its not for three or four years from now and you are budgeting saving for these but they happen now it kind of throws things off. I like to budget and be relatively prepared, just my way I guess, and I am conservative in general so reasonably figuring these out and factoring for them will help me not be stressed during a market swoon.  A swoon will be enough for me so I really don't want to see a $20k hit at the same time unless have factored it in.

Those are just bills the are part of life... maintenance for your body (teeth) and car and home.
Sorry you can't get around those things in general.

As long as you didn't get into debt for any of those things consider yourself blessed.

I mean I understand it can be stressing when your trying to save especially when like it all seems to fall within a month or two...but I usually figure a few of these things are going to happen every year.

No debt, so no worries there.  But would debt be all that bad if you are FIRE - I mean if a big item goes earlier than expected why not take on some short term debt to spread out the cash flow hit.  I have a HELOC for this purpose, never used it though because I hate debt. 

I also find these types of expenses manageable, but annoying. And I wonder how to factor them into a FIRE budget to find our spending requirement, and thus SWR. Some large ones I've taken out of the end-of-year Mint analysis, but I wonder if I should.

Is $14k on a car a one-time expense, or do I average it out over 10 years or so for budgeting purposes? But hopefully we'll get a cheaper one next time. Just in the last 3-4 years we've spent ~$20k on house maintenance and upgrades (inc. HVAC, hardwood floors). Will we be free of this for a long time now, or do we need to budget some amount per year? But I'm unsure how much. We're not replacing the floors again for decades, if ever. But there's the roof.. If I'm very conservative it's very easy to end  up with a FIRE "budget" of $100,000/year, just to cover every eventuality.

This - in my view the $14k car is a cash purchase but non-recurring (and sometimes flexible as to when but not always).

I hear you, I feel like I am in a recurring cycle where I build an emergency fund, and then it will just get decimated down to nothing with, well....emergencies.  It's frustrating, but I realized a little while ago that the frustration was wasted energy because these bills were going to happen anyway, so I just take a deep breath, pay the bills, and make adjustments.  I think that most people on this forum keep their lifestyle affordable to the point that they will just have a lower savings rate for a few months instead of it being a dire emergency.   What I had to break myself of doing is setting up my budget only for the best case scenario because every time I failed to meet the target, I just felt like a failure and then I get demotivated. 

Kind of what I do to.....it is what it is.

In my opinion, many on here underestimate their FIRE needs. Without experiencing some phases of life, it is easy to underestimate how much it will cost for "life". Better to be awakened by the information and plan accordingly rather than finding out after pulling the plug that costs are more than anticipated.

This.
This is why I;
Don't budget.  The cost of Life is always changing.  So many variables. 
Track my expenses (aka spending) to know how much it costs and have a rough plan.  I use 4 credit cards for specific things to maximize my rewards and track expenses.
Have an operating (aka life) fund instead of an emergency fund.  These facets of life are not emergencies.  They would be if I didn't have the funds.

Yeah, in the past year I've had to replace the AC and furnace at my place....and yesterday the water heater died.  I'm stressing a little about it.  I've got the cash so it'll be ok but it has been weighing on my mind.

One thing I've started doing in my expenses tracking is that I have a column that calculates average monthly expenses over the last 6mos, one that calculates average monthly expenses over the last 12 months....and now I'm thinking that maybe I'll add one for average monthly expenses over 24 or 36 months. 

HG/Geek

House Stuff - I definitely track my expenses and have an Emergency Fund.  But I do budget replacement (based on age) and repairs (estimate based on murphy's law) and put the amount in a separate account each month.  My HVAC is about 18 years old - past the prime for the AC but should be 5 +/- years left for heater - I have an amount set aside to replace the whole system because it could go anytime or repairs/maintenance might not be worth it at some point - if its replaced I won't have to worry about it for a very long time (if ever as I will likely sell the house before then).

Some of this is attributed to being in a new (to me) house - so you really don't know what is wrong, how it was maintained previously, or how long it will last. 


Car stuff
The car thing is a bit different  10 years old and fine, but if something major fails or maintenance/repairs (outside of wear/tear stuff like oil/brakes) becoming too high then may be time to replace - have no clue what amount to budget for that or when.  Its also a function of how much you do and don't drive, which sometimes not driving can be as bad as driving, if you don't drive that much it might actually be harder to plan because things break down outside of normal mileage ranges simply due to age or not being used. 

Health/Dental
Family of five on HDHP, no way to really plan for this in the budget accurately.  100% of full family deductible/out of pocket costs seems ridiculous but it could happen - EF might cover it for a bit, but who knows. Some smaller amount might be ok or might be completely insufficient.  We have been relatively healthy but that could change. 




 

[big_owl]

The comments seem to be either its life/you don't what you are doing or its life/I can relate but things happen more randomly so have an emergency fund.  I wonder if there is a correlation between the similar comments on each side and stage of life, family or not, home or not, etc. 

I believe the more typical mustachian view on this is too cocky and it's my own opinion that a lot of younger people who haven't had to go through major home repairs or unexpected medical expenses are probably underestimating the impact it would have on them.  Of course the standard argument is that cash is a waste of opportunity cost and that the money could be put to better use in the market and then just sell funds if needed.  I'm ignoring the whole "float the cost on a CC and pay it off over the next couple billing cycles" because to me that's just another way of saying "I don't actually have the money". 

I don't buy the investment rationale because you have no control over when you are forced to liquidate stocks for an expense.  Maybe you have to sell $20k worth of stocks.  In 2015...not so bad.  Maybe it's 2009 though...not so good.  Then I would have to pay either capital gains or deal with losses in tax statements.  Everything is just much simpler if I use my CC and immediately pay that off from with cash, locking in the rewards points while I'm at it and not having to worry about selling dividend paying stocks. 

My personal comfort level is around $100k in emergency cash but that's probably higher than it needs to be.  At least $50k would be my lower limit.  We like to do a lot of $10k-30k DIY improvement type projects each year or so and we can easily use the e-fund as a source for that, always maintaining at least a $50k balance and then replenishing once a specific project is complete.  It's very comforting knowing that I never have to worry about coming up with quick cash for almost any foreseeable emergency expense.

[tooqk4u22]

The comments seem to be either its life/you don't what you are doing or its life/I can relate but things happen more randomly so have an emergency fund.  I wonder if there is a correlation between the similar comments on each side and stage of life, family or not, home or not, etc. 

I believe the more typical mustachian view on this is too cocky and it's my own opinion that a lot of younger people who haven't had to go through major home repairs or unexpected medical expenses are probably underestimating the impact it would have on them. 

I agree completely, but I do believe in many of the tenets like flexibility, possible additional income from side hustle or going back to work, DIY, etc. that can help along the way.  But yes there is an air of over confidence IMO.  I also think this applies to investment tolerance as well, generally anybody who is younger than 35 years old has never really experienced a downturn because they were either too young to be investing or probably didn't have enough for it to matter.   I starting working/investing before a little before the dot com bubble bursting and while I didn't like it, it really didn't resonate that much...it was more like oh well I lost a years salary or less or great now I can buy low.  But 2008, that was my first one and I felt different about it - sure I kept investing and saving, it may have even increased my will to save, but I did not like the feeling.  Fortunately I didn't lose my job, who knows how that would have affected my views - but all that is off topic.


I too like the idea of a larger emergency fund.

[chesebert]

They are driving me nuts....it seems like (because it actually is) these non-recurring expenses are very much recurring every f'in month with multiple ones in months. Things like

- HVAC repair (I am sure I will need a new system within a 1 to 3 years)
- car maintenance (brakes, tires, sensors, etc)
- dental bills (root canal, cavities, other)
- braces with much more expected
- medical (infection, prescription, blood work)
- washer crapped out

In aggregate these things are awfully recurring with big costs.  I budget for these non-recurring expenses and shift a certain amount into a separate account to smooth out the expenses but they don't seem to stop - I guess this is the peril of a family of five and having stuff (cars/house). 

I am still working so no big deal, but it adds to the stress/uncertainty about being ready to FIRE. 

Hopefully this will subside and get back to a more normal average (ie not much comes up in following year(s). 

Anybody else struggle or go through these cycles?

Yes, I have been stuck in this cycle for the past 6 months. Primary residence repair add/on, bathroom, laundry room (our building requires to buy 1 or 2 washer/dryer unit model and the cheapest is $1k per machine), closet, hardwood, still need to repair 1 more closet and replace a garbage disposer and about 6 room A/C units.

Rental disaster, mold mitigation, water mitigation, reconstruction basement and kitchen, carpet, hardwood, repairs, painting...

I have not been able to save any money other than 401k, IRA and 529.... Hopefully this will all end by end of summer...

[chesebert]

The comments seem to be either its life/you don't what you are doing or its life/I can relate but things happen more randomly so have an emergency fund.  I wonder if there is a correlation between the similar comments on each side and stage of life, family or not, home or not, etc. 

I believe the more typical mustachian view on this is too cocky and it's my own opinion that a lot of younger people who haven't had to go through major home repairs or unexpected medical expenses are probably underestimating the impact it would have on them.  Of course the standard argument is that cash is a waste of opportunity cost and that the money could be put to better use in the market and then just sell funds if needed.  I'm ignoring the whole "float the cost on a CC and pay it off over the next couple billing cycles" because to me that's just another way of saying "I don't actually have the money". 

I don't buy the investment rationale because you have no control over when you are forced to liquidate stocks for an expense.  Maybe you have to sell $20k worth of stocks.  In 2015...not so bad.  Maybe it's 2009 though...not so good.  Then I would have to pay either capital gains or deal with losses in tax statements.  Everything is just much simpler if I use my CC and immediately pay that off from with cash, locking in the rewards points while I'm at it and not having to worry about selling dividend paying stocks. 

My personal comfort level is around $100k in emergency cash but that's probably higher than it needs to be.  At least $50k would be my lower limit.  We like to do a lot of $10k-30k DIY improvement type projects each year or so and we can easily use the e-fund as a source for that, always maintaining at least a $50k balance and then replenishing once a specific project is complete.  It's very comforting knowing that I never have to worry about coming up with quick cash for almost any foreseeable emergency expense.

You can use a margin account for emergency cash needs. Use it responsibly and don't exceed 50% of the permitted limit (usually 50% of your portfolio)

[wenchsenior]

The comments seem to be either its life/you don't what you are doing or its life/I can relate but things happen more randomly so have an emergency fund.  I wonder if there is a correlation between the similar comments on each side and stage of life, family or not, home or not, etc. 

I believe the more typical mustachian view on this is too cocky and it's my own opinion that a lot of younger people who haven't had to go through major home repairs or unexpected medical expenses are probably underestimating the impact it would have on them. 

I agree completely, but I do believe in many of the tenets like flexibility, possible additional income from side hustle or going back to work, DIY, etc. that can help along the way.  But yes there is an air of over confidence IMO.  I also think this applies to investment tolerance as well, generally anybody who is younger than 35 years old has never really experienced a downturn because they were either too young to be investing or probably didn't have enough for it to matter.   I starting working/investing before a little before the dot com bubble bursting and while I didn't like it, it really didn't resonate that much...it was more like oh well I lost a years salary or less or great now I can buy low.  But 2008, that was my first one and I felt different about it - sure I kept investing and saving, it may have even increased my will to save, but I did not like the feeling.  Fortunately I didn't lose my job, who knows how that would have affected my views - but all that is off topic.


I too like the idea of a larger emergency fund.

I agree, and I think younger people on this board sometimes really underestimate how much medical/dental stuff can decimate an emergency fund. Even without a chronic condition, one semi-serious medical situation can easily burn up 10-20K in a short period of time. Sometimes A LOT more than that.

I hate giving up investment opportunity, so I do keep my emergency cash invested, but quite conservatively...and I intend to get more conservative with it as we age.

[Dollar Slice]

I agree, and I think younger people on this board sometimes really underestimate how much medical/dental stuff can decimate an emergency fund. Even without a chronic condition, one semi-serious medical situation can easily burn up 10-20K in a short period of time. Sometimes A LOT more than that.

Yep. Sometimes things are truly unexpected. I went 15+ years without having any dental expense (work paid for a dental insurance plan that covered cleanings and routine preventative treatments). Dentist always said what great teeth I have. Then one day my molar disintegrated. Was looking at thousands of dollars all of a sudden.

And with medical... in the last couple of years my routine medical expenses have gone up more than 1000%. I can't say I saw that coming (certainly not in my 30s). And it's not like I had a big one-time emergency and had to max out my deductible... this is routine, forever-and-ever type expenses.

These are things we can handle, but they sure are aggravating. :-)

[2buttons]

Welcome to the world!  This is exactly why I like a large emergency fund and generally disagree with most mustacheans on the recommended fund size.

Bingo +1

[Choices]

I totally agree with all the comments about tracking expenses. We also budget annually for home repairs, car repairs, medical bills, etc. and consider it bonus savings if we don't end up spending it all. We also buff up our emergency fund to take some of the stress off if multiple items hit at once.

[Cassie]

At age 61 I do think that younger people underestimate big expenses. Also they can all occur at the same time which is not fun.  WE spent 33k on dental this year and in the past 3 years about 20k on house. Shit happens people!! WE also had to replace both old cars 3 years ago within months.

[ender]

The comments seem to be either its life/you don't what you are doing or its life/I can relate but things happen more randomly so have an emergency fund.  I wonder if there is a correlation between the similar comments on each side and stage of life, family or not, home or not, etc. 

All of your "unexpected" expenses look fairly expected to me.

I expect houses/cars/bodies to require maintenance.

I agree that they are all expected, but I said they were non-recurring not unexpected.  It is the timing that is difficult to nail down. If I expect these things to happen but its not for three or four years from now and you are budgeting saving for these but they happen now it kind of throws things off. I like to budget and be relatively prepared, just my way I guess, and I am conservative in general so reasonably figuring these out and factoring for them will help me not be stressed during a market swoon.  A swoon will be enough for me so I really don't want to see a $20k hit at the same time unless have factored it in.

Well, there are a variety of ways to address this.

Since you picked on my comment as your first one, I will say that we plan and have "mini emergency funds" for these sorts of categories. Right now we have about $7k in an "automotive" account and more in HSAs. We rent so we don't need house funds, but will start budgeting money into a separate account for this as well when we get our place. We also have a cash e-fund which basically covers other unexpected things.

I actually prefer to budget these expenses monthly. If you spend $10k every three years on major house repairs, you are basically amortizing that cost to about $300 a month (whether you do so consciously or not). For me I find the planning/predicting to be a lot more meaningful to average out the costs. Won't be perfect obviously but still useful.

[MMMdude]

I made a thread awhile back regarding how much to save for dental every year and the responses stating that $0 or close to it were frankly shocking as the fact that your teeth are fine now don't mean they will be fine in your retirement.  Stuff happens to you, your house and your transportation methods.  You all need to budget for that and replacement therein.  This is one frustration i have with this forum - people are abit too optimistic regarding their future expenses compared to say earlyretirement.org or bogleheads forum.

I basically think of three buckets i have to plan for
1 Basic expenses that recur regularly and are predictable
2 Non recurring but non discretionary in that they happen and are non negotiable such as your roof needing to be replaced
3 Non recurring and discretionary such as travel and hobbies

[robtown]

Yes,  expected but semi-random expenses can be like runs of bad hands at the blackjack table.     For my retirement expenses exercise  I use $100 / month per vehicle as a ballpark repair / upkeep expense.   I use $200 per month as a replacement expense.  The same can be done for household repairs (roof, HVAC, windows, etc.).     That at least helps quantify expenses.

When the hits keep coming it gets a bit depressing.

[DoubleDown]

@Tooqk4u22: I'd just say, don't use these types of expenses as a reason (excuse?!) not to FIRE. Yes, it sucks when there's a large expense that comes up, especially if a bunch hit all around the same time. But since you're already aware of how they're inevitable and can plan for them, just include them in your FIRE planning and go for it!

As you may know or recall, I FIRED a couple of years ago. Just two weeks ago I had to replace the A/C in my 11-year old car, which cost $1000. Honestly, I just shrug that stuff off. These expenses smooth out over time, and even expenses like this become barely noise in the big equation. When your portfolio is as large as yours, you're gaining or losing thousands to your net worth every month. In the end, having the freedom of FIRE is worth WAY MORE than a little bit of false added security thinking you can completely forecast these types of expenses, gains, and losses.

[arebelspy]

Irregular expenses happen quite regularly.

It's definitely worthwhile to budget for them, and the best way to do this (IMO) it to look at spending over a longer period of time.  Looking at it in a monthly chunk isn't enough.  A year, minimum (and then smooth the consumption by dividing by 12 if you need a monthly number).  More might help too.  And/or projecting the life of certain things (e.g. car replacement every M years, laptop every N years, roof every X, etc. etc.) and adding that in as well.