No sick days without documentation

[frugalnacho]

After 2 years at my current job I took my third sick day when I wasn't feeling well last week. I ate something that didn't agree with me and I had some diarrhea, and didn't feel like coming to work. I'm salaried, but I got my paycheck and it's prorated for 32 hours instead of 40.  I inquire about it and come to find out sick days require documentation.  We get 5 sick days, but they require documentation to be used.  So if you feel sick but don't visit a doctor and get a note then you get docked pay and can't use your sick days.

I understand you don't want people abusing the system, but this is kind of a shitty policy right?  I feel like there is a large gap between being sick enough to not come into work and sick enough to require medical attention.  Am I supposed to schedule a same day appointment at my dr to get documentation?  Or am I supposed to just come in anyway?  Apparently this change was made in January 2021, which seems extra shitty to switch to this policy in the middle of a pandemic when you should be encouraging people feeling sick to not come in. 

[Weisass]

That’s certainly how it works at my kids school...

[frugalnacho]

That’s certainly how it works at my kids school...

What does that mean?  Your kids don't get paid for a sick day unless they have documentation?

[MaybeBabyMustache]

That certainly sounds like a terrible policy. And, my kids school most certainly doesn't work like that. It never has, but it's a pandemic. If you aren't well, you should stay home.

[Chris22]

Any sort of documentation?  Like “here’s a picture of a toilet bowl full of diarrhea, do you really want to see it or will you take my word for it?”

[Cranky]

At our public schools, kids get 3 "free" sick days/semester, after which they need a doctor's note (which they can also get from the school nurse) or you start getting nasty letters from the attendance office, which turns into having to go to court at some point.

But I think it's strange to allow adults zero sick days without a note.

[GuitarStv]

Yeah, that is bullshit.

Requiring documentation for sick days is extra time and expense that a sick person needs to take out of their recovery period to go down to a doctor, potentially helping to spread whatever they've become sick with on the way.  For the vast majority of mild ailments (diarrhea, cough, headache, etc.) the doctor is going to tell you to go home and rest and wonder why you're wasting their time.  Around here doctors feel that this businesses trying to turn them into hall monitors for sick employees is such a waste of time that they currently have legislation tabled to ban the practice of sick notes.

Forcing people to get a sick note means that a certain number of sick people will just 'tough it out' and head to work sick rather than go wait in a doctor's office for a few hours (and maybe pay fees associated with it).  It's just a stupid practice - and has zero real impact on reducing sick time . . . as a doctor isn't necessarily capable of telling if you have a headache or don't feel well - they rely on what you tell them.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

That certainly sounds like a terrible policy. And, my kids school most certainly doesn't work like that. It never has, but it's a pandemic. If you aren't well, you should stay home.

Clarifying, my kids school requires a doctor's note if you are going to be out more than X days in a row. I think it's more than 3, but have never had to use it. I've worked at places that require it, if you are going to be out 5+ days, but my current employer doesn't require that either.

[frugalnacho]

Any sort of documentation?  Like “here’s a picture of a toilet bowl full of diarrhea, do you really want to see it or will you take my word for it?”

The handbook does not specify, it simply says "documentation is required".  I've never worked at a place with a policy like this, even the places that say documentation is required it's just leaving the company an out in case someone decides to abuse the system and attempt to use their sick days as extra vacation days.  I've never been docked for occasionally calling in and saying I was sick without providing documentation. 

I also was not specific and simply said "I'm not feeling well today and will be taking a sick day" because I feel like it's really none of their business beyond that, but apparently it is.  Had I known about the policy and that I was going to be docked I may have sent in a spackled bowl picture to management. 

[mizzourah2006]

That's extremely odd. If they give you sick days they are sick days to be used at your discretion. If it becomes an issue that's something your supervisor should address with you personally.

[FIRE Artist]

That doesn't sound like an employer I would want to work for, but not being American certainly changes my perspective on these things.

You said you are salary, I wonder how much unpaid overtime you are routinely expected to do?  I think that could be a good discussion point to put the occasional use of one of your 5 sick days into perspective. 

[redhead84]

That seems like an unreasonably restrictive policy. My employer doesn't require a doctors note until an employee goes beyond three days in a row, and if you are that sick, you probably should see a doctor. I would be pissed at my employer if people were bringing a stomach bug or other illnesses that doesn't usually require a doctor visit to work and getting everyone else sick because taking a sick day is too difficult.

[Metalcat]

That's an absolutely horrible policy. I totally agree with you, introducing it during covid is downright offensive.

[FIRE Artist]

I also was not specific and simply said "I'm not feeling well today and will be taking a sick day" because I feel like it's really none of their business beyond that, but apparently it is.  Had I known about the policy and that I was going to be docked I may have sent in a spackled bowl picture to management.

It is illegal for an employer to ask the nature of your sickness where I live (Alberta, Canada).  A doctor's note will just say FIRE Artist is not fit for work for x days. 

[frugalnacho]

That doesn't sound like an employer I would want to work for, but not being American certainly changes my perspective on these things.

You said you are salary, I wonder how much unpaid overtime you are routinely expected to do?  I think that could be a good discussion point to put the occasional use of one of your 5 sick days into perspective.

I don't put in any extra time.  Most weeks I barely even get my 40 in because fuck em.  I'm ducking out after 7-7.5 hours today, as soon as lumberg is gone.   I've been looking for a new job and interviewing since December, and during my search I struck up a conversation with some old coworkers around Feb/March and long story short we are planning to start our own business some time this year, so I have 0 motivation or loyalty to this job.  One day's pay doesn't even make a difference, I just thought it was kind of odd and a shitty policy, and I hadn't experienced this in my other jobs so I don't know how prevalent it really is. 

They only start employees off with 1 week of vacation as for the first 5 years of employment (2 weeks after 5 years, 3 weeks after 10 years).  I got 3 weeks because I said I wouldn't take the job without it, but the standard new hire only gets 1 week, so if they burn one day that doesn't even leave then with a full week of vacation.  Probably not a problem for a mustachian, but for the low level standard hire they make here that seems like it could definitely be a problem.  Imagine needing your whole paycheck every week in order to pay your bills, so you are unable to take a full week of vacation because you got diarrhea once and had to burn a sick day in order to not get docked pay.   

[JLee]

I'd check your state laws and see if that's legal.  It is not in NJ and NY.

[Caoineag]

I fortunately have never worked or had schooling at a place like that (and in college I worked at a grocery store). There is 0 chance of me continuing at a company with this policy as I am prone to migraines and you don't go anywhere in the middle of an attack. Wouldn't telehealth appointments work best for this? I do remember articles about doctors being pissed about such sick policies since they considered them a waste of their time.

I would consider this policy sufficient motivation to find a new employer and I am a 3 or less sick days per year sort of person. Heck I have had office managers offer to drive me home from work because they were afraid it was unsafe for me to take myself home. A policy like this is the ultimate insult for employees.

[JLee]

So I'm finding conflicting info re: Michigan.  This one looks promising:

https://www.zenefits.com/workest/new-michigan-sick-leave-law-starts-march-2019/

Some employers many currently require a sick note from a doctor for each sick day taken by a staff member. The new law can only require documentation after three consecutive sick days. To accompany this change, employers will be held responsible for all fees incurred during sick leave. For example, out-of-pocket costs for providing documentation, attorney fees, or back pay for litigation actions will all fall on the employer.

If you're a qualified employee under that law and if that's how it is actually written, I'd be really tempted to send HR/payroll an email (or certified letter) asking if they are going to resolve this on their own or if you should have your attorney reach out.

However, I also found this:
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/Paid_Medical_Leave_Act_FAQ_003_644567_7.pdf

Can an employer require an employee to provide notice of and documentation for the use of paid
medical leave?
Yes. Employees must follow the employer’s usual and customary notice, procedural, and documentation
requirement for requesting leave. The employee must be allowed at least 3 days to provide documentation.

Soooo I dunno. In any case I would be looking for a new job too. The moment my employer starts treating me like a child is the moment they no longer deserve to have me working there.

[StarBright]

it is a horrible, maddening, and unethical policy. Especially because so many doctor's offices can't even get people in same day for a sick visit!

And depending on the insurance you're often charged more to go to a walk-in/urgent care. If you don't have a retail/pharmacy clinic nearby and covered by your insurance you are out of luck.

With high deductible insurance most people would be paying about 80 bucks just to get a sick note. Ugh. That just pisses me off for you!

[bbqbonelesswing]

Yeah, that sounds pretty shitty. I don't have to do that if I'm sick- I just say "I'm sick" and 8 hours comes out of my PTO bank.

[frugalnacho]

And in a delicious bit of irony my doctor's office (and my wife's and son's and pretty much all that I know of, since the pandemic began) specifically requests you do NOT come in while you are sick.  If you are sick enough that you are going to die then go to the emergency room.  If you aren't sick enough to die, just tough it out at home until your symptoms pass.   

[Erma]

That is exactly one of the reasons why I left a job (I liked the job in general). But there I got paid for worked hours and would have to bring a doctors note on the first day of sickness. So no pay and additional expenses due to the doctor's visit. At the current job we have 3 days before we have to bring a sick note (but they can ask for earlier if it seems like someone abuses the system and is ill every Friday or Monday for weeks in a row).

I really see no point in going to a doctor if you have a strong headache and it will pass after a day or something similar.

[bacchi]

I worked at a call center in college with this policy.

I got sick and trudged into work, blew chunks all over the bathroom floor, and left soon after I arrived. As I was leaving, my manager asked me to get a sick note. Wtf? I quit as many low-paid workers quit -- I didn't show up for my next shift.

[JLee]

You know, this ordeal sounds like a recipe for a mysteriously coincidental happenstance where all five sick days get used up every year. 

https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-take-mental-health-day/10007706#:~:text=Whether%20you%27ve%20called%20in,%5D%2C%22%20Dr%20Blashki%20says.

That's Australia, but I bet any reasonable doctor's office would happily write a sick note for a mental health day...

[frugalnacho]

You know, this ordeal sounds like a recipe for a mysteriously coincidental happenstance where all five sick days get used up every year. 

https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/how-to-take-mental-health-day/10007706#:~:text=Whether%20you%27ve%20called%20in,%5D%2C%22%20Dr%20Blashki%20says.

That's Australia, but I bet any reasonable doctor's office would happily write a sick note for a mental health day...

I had no intention of trying to abuse the system, but now, purely out of spite, I am going to talk to my doctor about getting notes for some mental health days to use before I quit.  I suspect I will need about 5 mental health fridays this summer. 

[Sibley]

Check, but I believe it's illegal to dock pay for salaried employees. You're salary. If they want to argue that you can't use a sick day, then they can push it over to vacation. But yeah, they suck. If warranted, feel free to report them to department of labor. It'll take forever, but DOL will eventually get to it.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

It's a contractual matter between you and the employer. If you don't like it you can try to vary the contract or otherwise just play by the rules. I don't think it's unreasonable for employers to require a sick note.

Last job my employer required me to get a sick note so I did, and I used up all 74 days of sick leave before I resigned. It pays to have a good relationship with your treating doctors. I had a lot of chronic issues which required long blocks off sick leave, when I was an employee.

Note now that I am self employed I call in sick maybe once a year...if that. Funny how not getting paid at all incentivises me to avoid sick days...

[ChickenStash]

I imagine situations such as these are why my employers had all abandoned sick days in favor of a single pot of paid leave to be used as the employee sees fit. Trying to make sure a sick day is really a sick day is a massive waste of time for the employee and the HR dept.

[Chris22]

I imagine situations such as these are why my employers had all abandoned sick days in favor of a single pot of paid leave to be used as the employee sees fit. Trying to make sure a sick day is really a sick day is a massive waste of time for the employee and the HR dept.

Agreed. And I’ve been lucky that most of my organizations aren’t interested in tracking 100% of my PTO days, either. If I want to take a week off and (almost) totally unplug, yeah, that’s PTO. But if I want to take an afternoon for a doctor’s appointment or my kid’s game or something, well, there was that time last week when I had the early morning meeting with Asia so I’m going to call it a wash and no one’s going to be worried. Especially since I have a work cell phone and can monitor emails anyways and if something important comes in I can deal with it.

[simonsez]

I can't believe a) the timing of the policy being added and b) that it's actually followed to such an extreme extent.

Sure, if someone is out 3, 5, 10+ consecutive days for sick leave, I'd consider it a courtesy (but not a requirement, that seems so odd) to send a doctor's note.  But for one day here and there, that's crazy.

Like others have said, the timing of the implementation is kinda messed up.

Seems like a lose-lose.  HR/T&A/whoever now has to keep tabs and do more work and bother people and the employees resent the new protocol.  I would guess that morale would only go down and possibly affect widget production.

If you have an abuser, it's usually clear and a policy isn't needed for this revelation.  Good luck on your career situation improving soon OP!

[OtherJen]

That's insane. My employer doesn't require documentation for paid sick days unless we request more than 3 in a row; then again, my employer is not US-based.

When I worked in academia, my lab heads would harass me by phone/email whenever I took a sick day, but they never asked for documentation, and really, having to listen to me cough my way through the work day for the next few days because they wouldn't let up was proof.

I agree with others that it seems a toilet bowl photo may have been warranted.

[therethere]

This is the type of thing I would ignore. If they were to fire me over it.... well whatever that company sucks anyway. If they have a policy like this, there's probably plenty of other policies and culture norms that are skeevy.

In my first job we had "unlimited" sick days. But they tracked them. If you took a sick day on a Friday, Monday, or before/after a PTO day you got put on the watch list. Rumor was the 2nd time you did it you got a talking to and put on a performance plan. Man scare tactics were high with that job.

[frugalnacho]

I can't believe a) the timing of the policy being added and b) that it's actually followed to such an extreme extent.

Sure, if someone is out 3, 5, 10+ consecutive days for sick leave, I'd consider it a courtesy (but not a requirement, that seems so odd) to send a doctor's note.  But for one day here and there, that's crazy.

Like others have said, the timing of the implementation is kinda messed up.

Seems like a lose-lose.  HR/T&A/whoever now has to keep tabs and do more work and bother people and the employees resent the new protocol.  I would guess that morale would only go down and possibly affect widget production.

If you have an abuser, it's usually clear and a policy isn't needed for this revelation.  Good luck on your career situation improving soon OP!

Oh I'm sure it's directly related to people taking time off for covid.  Back in March 2020 when all the shut downs started happening there were some meetings that involved management and our lawyers that I was a part of.  What I remember of the meetings was:

1. This is just the flu, and we are getting waaaay ahead of ourselves.
2. The WHO has declared it a pandemic, but technically the CDC hasn't.  So I guess it's not a pandemic?  I really didn't understand why they emphasized this point so hard.
3. Shutdowns are looming in multiple states and they were expecting michigan to follow within the next few days.  So how can we possibly avoid this shut down? What can we legally do to classify the business as essential so we don't have to shut down?
4. Sick time for covid was mandated by the familys first act, but how can we get out of actually letting people take time off and pay them?  They made a specific point that vacation is NOT allowed to be used for covid sickness.  If you get sick everything must go through the proper channels to be classified according to the family's first act, and if you can't do that then the time you take off must be unpaid and not vacation.  Of course no one could technically get classified as covid time off because there were no tests available and hospitals and doctors weren't allowing any patients unless you were deathly ill.  Anything less than being on death's doorstep was "go home and drink some fluids, and as long as you can breath just tough it out.  If you can't breath then go to the emergency room".  And also anything less than being on death's doorstep was "GTFO of here, we are saving tests for people that are really sick because we don't have the capacity to test almost anyone".  To this day I don't understand what their logic was with not allowing employees to use vacation time, it makes absolutely no sense to me that you won't let an employee use their vacation time for this purpose when you legally owe them that paid vacation time anyway.  They seem to not benefit in any way by the restriction, but it fucks over the employees.

I only had 3 days to turn in documentation to HR, but I wasn't even aware of the policy because I almost never call in sick, so I didn't even realize it until I got my docked paycheck and investigated.   

[bmjohnson35]

That is a horrible policy and I'm surprised to hear it in today's atmosphere.  Employers often struggle obtaining good people and this is the type of policy that will drive employees to an employer who better appreciates their contribution.  It also encourages sick people to go to work and possibly infect their coworkers.

If you really like your job otherwise, you may want to see if your medical insurance offers online medical care via a healthcare app.  They often do these days, since it saves you and the insurance company money.  For example, I used it at work once, while sitting at my desk.  I had a sinus infection and the doctor asked me various questions and "examined" my throat live through my phone as well as she could.  She prescribed the medication I needed.  She asked me if I felt like I needed time off, but I didn't.  I even received a follow-up text a few days later to see how I was doing.  Of course, what can be evaluated remotely like this is limited, but it sounds like your situation would have been ideal for this type of service.  I assume they could email you the documentation for your employer.

[JLee]

I can't believe a) the timing of the policy being added and b) that it's actually followed to such an extreme extent.

Sure, if someone is out 3, 5, 10+ consecutive days for sick leave, I'd consider it a courtesy (but not a requirement, that seems so odd) to send a doctor's note.  But for one day here and there, that's crazy.

Like others have said, the timing of the implementation is kinda messed up.

Seems like a lose-lose.  HR/T&A/whoever now has to keep tabs and do more work and bother people and the employees resent the new protocol.  I would guess that morale would only go down and possibly affect widget production.

If you have an abuser, it's usually clear and a policy isn't needed for this revelation.  Good luck on your career situation improving soon OP!

Oh I'm sure it's directly related to people taking time off for covid.  Back in March 2020 when all the shut downs started happening there were some meetings that involved management and our lawyers that I was a part of.  What I remember of the meetings was:

1. This is just the flu, and we are getting waaaay ahead of ourselves.
2. The WHO has declared it a pandemic, but technically the CDC hasn't.  So I guess it's not a pandemic?  I really didn't understand why they emphasized this point so hard.
3. Shutdowns are looming in multiple states and they were expecting michigan to follow within the next few days.  So how can we possibly avoid this shut down? What can we legally do to classify the business as essential so we don't have to shut down?
4. Sick time for covid was mandated by the familys first act, but how can we get out of actually letting people take time off and pay them?  They made a specific point that vacation is NOT allowed to be used for covid sickness.  If you get sick everything must go through the proper channels to be classified according to the family's first act, and if you can't do that then the time you take off must be unpaid and not vacation.  Of course no one could technically get classified as covid time off because there were no tests available and hospitals and doctors weren't allowing any patients unless you were deathly ill.  Anything less than being on death's doorstep was "go home and drink some fluids, and as long as you can breath just tough it out.  If you can't breath then go to the emergency room".  And also anything less than being on death's doorstep was "GTFO of here, we are saving tests for people that are really sick because we don't have the capacity to test almost anyone".  To this day I don't understand what their logic was with not allowing employees to use vacation time, it makes absolutely no sense to me that you won't let an employee use their vacation time for this purpose when you legally owe them that paid vacation time anyway.  They seem to not benefit in any way by the restriction, but it fucks over the employees.

I only had 3 days to turn in documentation to HR, but I wasn't even aware of the policy because I almost never call in sick, so I didn't even realize it until I got my docked paycheck and investigated.

I'd be really tempted to call your state Dept of Labor and have a chat with them just to see if there's anything you/they can do.

[Dicey]

In my experience, any sick outs lasting longer than three continuous days required a doctor's note. Sounds like some power hungry widget has reinterpreted your company's policy. Def. check the rules in your state, as others have suggested.

I am so pissed for you. Please, please fight this. Use your financial strength to help yourself and every other employee in your firm. It could be as simple as getting a note from your doctor stating that they discourage visits during a pandemic and therefore did not see you.

[frugalnacho]

That is a horrible policy and I'm surprised to hear it in today's atmosphere.  Employers often struggle obtaining good people and this is the type of policy that will drive employees to an employer who better appreciates their contribution.  It also encourages sick people to go to work and possibly infect their coworkers.

If you really like your job otherwise, you may want to see if your medical insurance offers online medical care via a healthcare app.  They often do these days, since it saves you and the insurance company money.  For example, I used it at work once, while sitting at my desk.  I had a sinus infection and the doctor asked me various questions and "examined" my throat live through my phone as well as she could.  She prescribed the medication I needed.  She asked me if I felt like I needed time off, but I didn't.  I even received a follow-up text a few days later to see how I was doing.  Of course, what can be evaluated remotely like this is limited, but it sounds like your situation would have been ideal for this type of service.  I assume they could email you the documentation for your employer.

I dislike the job, the management, the culture, the specific regulators I have to deal with, and many of the coworkers.  I have one foot out the door.

This is also a situation that was clear I didn't need medical attention, I just didn't feel like going to work after losing several hours sleep and still having diarrhea.   It seems like a massive waste of resources and time to consult with a dr.  I don't need medication that I don't already have in my cabinet, and I don't need any kind of diagnostics.  I needed a glass of water, a couple more hours sleep, and quick access to a toilet for the next few hours. 

[SunnyDays]

My job required a doctor's note after 3 days.  Luckily I only had to do this once in 30 years and the walk-in doctor I saw (because I couldn't get an appointment with my own) was offended on my behalf because "the company doesn't trust you?  I've never met you before, but they'll take my word for it?"  Can't tell you how many times I went to work sick.

Your doctor doesn't want sick people coming in?  Whaaaaat?

[frugalnacho]

My job required a doctor's note after 3 days.  Luckily I only had to do this once in 30 years and the walk-in doctor I saw (because I couldn't get an appointment with my own) was offended on my behalf because "the company doesn't trust you?  I've never met you before, but they'll take my word for it?"  Can't tell you how many times I went to work sick.

Your doctor doesn't want sick people coming in?  Whaaaaat?

None of the offices did.  You couldn't enter if you had a fever or any other covid symptoms.  My son's pediatrician stopped any and all appointments for sick kids and they would only do normal wellness check appointments for healthy kids.  You could do a telehealth appointment though.  I don't know what the policy is at this point; I assume there is some kind of protocol in place at this point to treat sick patients.   

I kind of get why they didn't want sick people congregating in the offices at the start of the pandemic, but it also seemed bizarre that only healthy people could visit the dr.

[NorthernIkigai]

[...] I am prone to migraines and you don't go anywhere in the middle of an attack. Wouldn't telehealth appointments work best for this?

I used to work for an employer (in Western Europe, no less) that required a sick note from the first day. At the time, I used to get migraines that lasted about a day. Telehealth didn't really exist yet. It was not fun.

[Caoineag]

[...] I am prone to migraines and you don't go anywhere in the middle of an attack. Wouldn't telehealth appointments work best for this?

I used to work for an employer (in Western Europe, no less) that required a sick note from the first day. At the time, I used to get migraines that lasted about a day. Telehealth didn't really exist yet. It was not fun.

I stand by my original statement that I wouldn't work for that employer for much longer after that. I have always been that workaholic employee who gets the most work done out of everyone and who can save you in an emergency but the unspoken price of me bending over backwards is that they don't treat me like an imbecile.

I did interview once for a position where it became clear in the interview that they didn't believe in sick days. I made sure to ask the right questions after that so that they wouldn't offer me the job. Neither of us was impressed by the other.

[shelivesthedream]

I am not sure if it is illegal in the UK for an employer to require a sick note if you have been off for fewer than seven days, but apparently employers "can't ask" for a sick note until the eighth consecutive day: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/sick-pay/how-to-get-sick-pay/ (Citizens Advice is a very well known, reputable charity that does give legal advice on things like employment issues.)

I would personally find it bizarre to have something like food poisoning and be expected to actually contact a doctor (either by phone so I could lie, or grossly in person while D&V everywhere) to "certify" a single days absence. If the company believes someone to be abusing the sick leave policy then that's a matter to investigate and possibly discipline them for, but as a blanket policy that's absolutely nuts. Punish the many for the sins of the few, and punish the doctors too for good measure who have to waste their time with this?

[NorthernIkigai]

[...] I am prone to migraines and you don't go anywhere in the middle of an attack. Wouldn't telehealth appointments work best for this?

I used to work for an employer (in Western Europe, no less) that required a sick note from the first day. At the time, I used to get migraines that lasted about a day. Telehealth didn't really exist yet. It was not fun.

I stand by my original statement that I wouldn't work for that employer for much longer after that.

It was only my second proper job, so there's that. And it was a more professionally run organization than my first proper job... Nothing illegal or grossly incompetent going on at either, just bad old fashioned micromanaging, etc. I consider my dues to be paid.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

[...] I am prone to migraines and you don't go anywhere in the middle of an attack. Wouldn't telehealth appointments work best for this?

I used to work for an employer (in Western Europe, no less) that required a sick note from the first day. At the time, I used to get migraines that lasted about a day. Telehealth didn't really exist yet. It was not fun.

I stand by my original statement that I wouldn't work for that employer for much longer after that. I have always been that workaholic employee who gets the most work done out of everyone and who can save you in an emergency but the unspoken price of me bending over backwards is that they don't treat me like an imbecile.

I did interview once for a position where it became clear in the interview that they didn't believe in sick days. I made sure to ask the right questions after that so that they wouldn't offer me the job. Neither of us was impressed by the other.

I can understand the employer's perspective. As a trial lawyer I've never dropped a trial due to illness. (It helps motivate me that if I drop a trial I don't get paid for it and my client potentially bears the costs of the adjournment, which would be painful for the innocent client.) I've never seen it happen once on the other side either and I've been in hundreds of trials.

Here in Australia the prevalence of sick days/mental health days is astounding amongst employees and I can't believe that all of it is legitimate.

[JLee]

[...] I am prone to migraines and you don't go anywhere in the middle of an attack. Wouldn't telehealth appointments work best for this?

I used to work for an employer (in Western Europe, no less) that required a sick note from the first day. At the time, I used to get migraines that lasted about a day. Telehealth didn't really exist yet. It was not fun.

I stand by my original statement that I wouldn't work for that employer for much longer after that. I have always been that workaholic employee who gets the most work done out of everyone and who can save you in an emergency but the unspoken price of me bending over backwards is that they don't treat me like an imbecile.

I did interview once for a position where it became clear in the interview that they didn't believe in sick days. I made sure to ask the right questions after that so that they wouldn't offer me the job. Neither of us was impressed by the other.

I can understand the employer's perspective. As a trial lawyer I've never dropped a trial due to illness. (It helps motivate me that if I drop a trial I don't get paid for it and my client potentially bears the costs of the adjournment, which would be painful for the innocent client.) I've never seen it happen once on the other side either and I've been in hundreds of trials.

Here in Australia the prevalence of sick days/mental health days is astounding amongst employees and I can't believe that all of it is legitimate.

As a trial lawyer you are not dealing with people to the same extent you would as, say, a service industry - if you get sick, how many people are you likely to get sick based on your contacts in a given day?

People with attitudes like yours are why the flu / seasonal sickness is so rampant.  I can't even tell you how many times we have told coworkers to go home because they showed up to work sick.  Nobody wants that shit, keep it out of the office.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Cold and flu isn't the only reason people take sick days, though.

How many people take sick days for non-transmissible, non-crippling ailments?

Worthwhile thinking about people's respective fortitudes which can vary based on incentive.

As I said when I was an employee I took weeks off work at a time. That's what you pay me for, after all. It's in the contract. Here's my certificate. But as someone who's self-employed I'm playing for higher stakes.

[OtherJen]

[...] I am prone to migraines and you don't go anywhere in the middle of an attack. Wouldn't telehealth appointments work best for this?

I used to work for an employer (in Western Europe, no less) that required a sick note from the first day. At the time, I used to get migraines that lasted about a day. Telehealth didn't really exist yet. It was not fun.

I stand by my original statement that I wouldn't work for that employer for much longer after that. I have always been that workaholic employee who gets the most work done out of everyone and who can save you in an emergency but the unspoken price of me bending over backwards is that they don't treat me like an imbecile.

I did interview once for a position where it became clear in the interview that they didn't believe in sick days. I made sure to ask the right questions after that so that they wouldn't offer me the job. Neither of us was impressed by the other.

I can understand the employer's perspective. As a trial lawyer I've never dropped a trial due to illness. (It helps motivate me that if I drop a trial I don't get paid for it and my client potentially bears the costs of the adjournment, which would be painful for the innocent client.) I've never seen it happen once on the other side either and I've been in hundreds of trials.

Here in Australia the prevalence of sick days/mental health days is astounding amongst employees and I can't believe that all of it is legitimate.

In my former life as an academic researcher, I went to work multiple times with a fever over 38°C and a hacking cough (no, I'm not proud of it and wouldn't do it now because that's horribly disrespectful of other people's health), but even I had a limit. If I had spent the last several hours vomiting and had passed out from exhaustion, I didn't leave the house. What would you do in that situation?

[GuitarStv]

Cold and flu isn't the only reason people take sick days, though.

How many people take sick days for non-transmissible, non-crippling ailments?

Worthwhile thinking about people's respective fortitudes which can vary based on incentive.

As I said when I was an employee I took weeks off work at a time. That's what you pay me for, after all. It's in the contract. Here's my certificate. But as someone who's self-employed I'm playing for higher stakes.

How good do you think the quality of work is from people who are sick?  And how much does treating employees like shit cost a company in good employees (who will typically gear up to leave for a better place to work) and in disgruntled, unproductive "work"?

The 'asses in seats' theory of productivity may be true in some fields where the work doesn't require thinking or creativity, but I bet that it's totally inapplicable to a large swath of white collar jobs.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

If I had spent the last several hours vomiting and had passed out from exhaustion, I didn't leave the house.

I would seek an adjournment. I don't think I've ever been that sick in my life, tahnkfully.

[MayDay]

To be completely clear it's a horrible policy and I don't agree with the requirement.

But going forward, try a telehealth appointment or MyChart message your doctor and ask for her or her nurse to send you a letter that you need to be out. Most providers don't care (because it's a waste of their resources) and will give you a note, from what I've seen.