No Quality EVs Under $60k

[ColoradoTribe]

I have heard the topic subject line repeated often on this board and elsewhere. I think people in the market for an EV are operating on outdated pricing information. To be fair, Tesla doesn’t do much in the way of advertising, so the steady drop in pricing over the past year or so can easily go unnoticed. So, in the way of a PSA here is an example of what you could buy today in Colorado after a quick look at their website just this morning.

New Model Y RWD
Listed at $42,290
After Federal ($7500) and State ($5,000) tax credits = $29,790
This doesn’t include taxes and delivery fee, but also doesn’t include average fuel saving of $1,200/yr.

Keep in mind the above pricing is for new inventory vehicles. These are new vehicles that were not custom orders and were shipped to regional distribution centers without a buyer. On the Tesla homepage select the “shop available” tab. Custom order vehicles cost more, but the inventory selection is ample.

I’d ask that this thread not turn into a debate over the merits of EVs, or whether people should buy a new car ever, or about Elon Musk. I just want folks who may be in the market to be aware there is a quality EV available for well under $60k and depending on where you live, possibly under $30k.

Keep an eye on the inventory prices, Tesla adjusts them in real time based on regional demand. Near the end of March, RWD Model Ys were listed for as low as $38k before $12.5K in credits for CO buyers.

This last bit is strictly my opinion, but I don’t think there is better value for the money in the new car market (EV or ICE).

Edit: Should have also mentioned the $7,500 tax credit on the Model Y is applied by Tesla at the point of sale. You no longer have to wait to claim it when you file at the end of the year.

[Scandium]

OK, interesting. But regardless of Elon (or in addition to), I'm not a fan of Tesla for a bunch of reasons. The wildly reported QC issues, crap construction etc. So, are there reasonable non-tesla EVs?! I've looked at the VW ID4, but it's $45k+? The Kia/Hyundai ones are similar. The chevy ones are tiny (and of course chevy is trash..). Honda/toyota is my preferred car, and they barely have any, and/or they're also $45-50k+

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!). So yeah, I really wanted to get an EV, but I could not make it make sense. Pretty bummed. I did the math every which way, and could not make the gas savings for an EV make sense for anything less than 150-200k miles of driving, which is a wash at best (and then you still have the range issues). Savings is maybe $1000/yr in gas, less electric cost. So $10k more would take at least 10 years to pay for itself.. And when you include investing that extra $15-20k which would double in that that time, it's even worse). I need a reasonable "normal sedan size" EV, with at least decent range, for mid $20k, out the door. Basically the same cost as an equivalent gas car. Then it would be interesting. Instead everyone seem to aim these at the "luxury" market at this point.

Separately, it seemed to me that EVs started out super-expensive, and were slowly moving down in the market. But now it has bottomed out, and they are moving upward again? E.g. honda has 1 ev! and it's a large "luxury SUV", starting at $50k.. Toyota is the same! Where's the EV civic? Why not an EV golf (instead of an SUV)? Why not a full EV prius? I watch a normal size hatchback EV goddamnit, from a reputable company! (no, the chevy things don't count, nor does BMW)

[Paper Chaser]

OK, interesting. But regardless of Elon (or in addition to), I'm not a fan of Tesla for a bunch of reasons. The wildly reported QC issues, crap construction etc. So, are there reasonable non-tesla EVs?! I've looked at the VW ID4, but it's $45k+? The Kia/Hyundai ones are similar. The chevy ones are tiny (and of course chevy is trash..). Honda/toyota is my preferred car, and they barely have any, and/or they're also $45-50k+

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!). So yeah, I really wanted to get an EV, but I could not make it make sense. Pretty bummed. I did the math every which way, and could not make the gas savings for an EV make sense for anything less than 150-200k miles of driving, which is a wash at best (and then you still have the range issues). Savings is maybe $1000/yr in gas, less electric cost. So $10k more would take at least 10 years to pay for itself.. And when you include investing that extra $15-20k which would double in that that time, it's even worse). I need a reasonable "normal sedan size" EV, with at least decent range, for mid $20k, out the door. Basically the same cost as an equivalent gas car. Then it would be interesting. Instead everyone seem to aim these at the "luxury" market at this point.

Separately, it seemed to me that EVs started out super-expensive, and were slowly moving down in the market. But now it has bottomed out, and they are moving upward again? E.g. honda has 1 ev! and it's a large "luxury SUV", starting at $50k.. Toyota is the same! Where's the EV civic? Why not an EV golf (instead of an SUV)? Why not a full EV prius? I watch a normal size hatchback EV goddamnit, from a reputable company! (no, the chevy things don't count, nor does BMW)

Honda's new EV is based on GM tech. Toyota's lone EV is based on a Subaru. You might have to get out of your comfort zone a little and question your preconceived notions about brands and quality/value.

[RWD]

Volvo EX30 is $35k. The Hyundai Ioniq 6 is the cheapest vehicle of any type to lease in the US.

The Japanese car industry (especially Toyota) has been actively sabotaging the EV transition. Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Subaru and Mazda have affiliations with Toyota. Honda is doing shared development with GM (Honda Prologue is basically a Chevy Blazer). Nissan Ariya looks decent (still on the expensive side), but amazing that it took over a decade for them to introduce only their second EV model. I personally don't think we can rely on or wait for Japanese EVs. Even in ICE/hybrid development they have been stagnant for a decade.

[Scandium]

OK, interesting. But regardless of Elon (or in addition to), I'm not a fan of Tesla for a bunch of reasons. The wildly reported QC issues, crap construction etc. So, are there reasonable non-tesla EVs?! I've looked at the VW ID4, but it's $45k+? The Kia/Hyundai ones are similar. The chevy ones are tiny (and of course chevy is trash..). Honda/toyota is my preferred car, and they barely have any, and/or they're also $45-50k+

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!). So yeah, I really wanted to get an EV, but I could not make it make sense. Pretty bummed. I did the math every which way, and could not make the gas savings for an EV make sense for anything less than 150-200k miles of driving, which is a wash at best (and then you still have the range issues). Savings is maybe $1000/yr in gas, less electric cost. So $10k more would take at least 10 years to pay for itself.. And when you include investing that extra $15-20k which would double in that that time, it's even worse). I need a reasonable "normal sedan size" EV, with at least decent range, for mid $20k, out the door. Basically the same cost as an equivalent gas car. Then it would be interesting. Instead everyone seem to aim these at the "luxury" market at this point.

Separately, it seemed to me that EVs started out super-expensive, and were slowly moving down in the market. But now it has bottomed out, and they are moving upward again? E.g. honda has 1 ev! and it's a large "luxury SUV", starting at $50k.. Toyota is the same! Where's the EV civic? Why not an EV golf (instead of an SUV)? Why not a full EV prius? I watch a normal size hatchback EV goddamnit, from a reputable company! (no, the chevy things don't count, nor does BMW)

Honda's new EV is based on GM tech. Toyota's lone EV is based on a Subaru. You might have to get out of your comfort zone a little and question your preconceived notions about brands and quality/value.

By preconceived notions you mean all data on car reliability, long-term mechanical issues, lifetime costs etc? (and no, I don't mean JD power or CR rankings, which are absolute BS). I buy quality cars, so that I can drive them longer, without having to replace the transmission years earlier than I should have to. Every time I go through this exercise, I end up rejecting german cars, american cars, volvo, etc etc, because they just aren't reliable. It's not my choice, some of their cars are nice, but I simply won't put up with trash construction for it.

[maizefolk]

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!).

For what it's worth, I can do a 300 mile round trip with, at most, one 30 minute charging break. Not six hours.

[RWD]

OK, interesting. But regardless of Elon (or in addition to), I'm not a fan of Tesla for a bunch of reasons. The wildly reported QC issues, crap construction etc. So, are there reasonable non-tesla EVs?! I've looked at the VW ID4, but it's $45k+? The Kia/Hyundai ones are similar. The chevy ones are tiny (and of course chevy is trash..). Honda/toyota is my preferred car, and they barely have any, and/or they're also $45-50k+

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!). So yeah, I really wanted to get an EV, but I could not make it make sense. Pretty bummed. I did the math every which way, and could not make the gas savings for an EV make sense for anything less than 150-200k miles of driving, which is a wash at best (and then you still have the range issues). Savings is maybe $1000/yr in gas, less electric cost. So $10k more would take at least 10 years to pay for itself.. And when you include investing that extra $15-20k which would double in that that time, it's even worse). I need a reasonable "normal sedan size" EV, with at least decent range, for mid $20k, out the door. Basically the same cost as an equivalent gas car. Then it would be interesting. Instead everyone seem to aim these at the "luxury" market at this point.

Separately, it seemed to me that EVs started out super-expensive, and were slowly moving down in the market. But now it has bottomed out, and they are moving upward again? E.g. honda has 1 ev! and it's a large "luxury SUV", starting at $50k.. Toyota is the same! Where's the EV civic? Why not an EV golf (instead of an SUV)? Why not a full EV prius? I watch a normal size hatchback EV goddamnit, from a reputable company! (no, the chevy things don't count, nor does BMW)

Honda's new EV is based on GM tech. Toyota's lone EV is based on a Subaru. You might have to get out of your comfort zone a little and question your preconceived notions about brands and quality/value.

By preconceived notions you mean all data on car reliability, long-term mechanical issues, lifetime costs etc? (and no, I don't mean JD power or CR rankings, which are absolute BS). I buy quality cars, so that I can drive them longer, without having to replace the transmission years earlier than I should have to. Every time I go through this exercise, I end up rejecting german cars, american cars, volvo, etc etc, because they just aren't reliable. It's not my choice, some of their cars are nice, but I simply won't put up with trash construction for it.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/24/cars/toyota-bz4x-tundra-recall/index.html

[Scandium]

Volvo EX30 is $35k. The Hyundai Ioniq 6 is the cheapest vehicle of any type to lease in the US.

The Japanese car industry (especially Toyota) has been actively sabotaging the EV transition. Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Subaru and Mazda have affiliations with Toyota. Honda is doing shared development with GM (Honda Prologue is basically a Chevy Blazer). Nissan Ariya looks decent (still on the expensive side), but amazing that it took over a decade for them to introduce only their second EV model. I personally don't think we can rely on or wait for Japanese EVs. Even in ICE/hybrid development they have been stagnant for a decade.

Yes it's very frustrating. I know the japanese brands are total assholes about this. Volvo is chinese garbage. Before then was swedish garbage (i owned one once). The Ioniq 5 is closest to what I'm looking for; a "big enough" hatchback with decent range. But again it's way too expensive. $45k+ i think. I can drive my civic 200k miles and still be cheaper! I'm a little weary of Hyundai quality, but supposedly it's ok.. ID4 looks ok? But mech issues with German cars make me nervous..

So I guess then; what's a not-trash-quality, normal size, reasonably priced EV? (that's not tesla)

[Scandium]

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!).

For what it's worth, I can do a 300 mile round trip with, at most, one 30 minute charging break. Not six hours.

Ok, fair. I usually stop at the price of EVs, so have never done the necessary research on charging standards, reviewing network maps where I can charge, plug types etc etc.
e.g. we'd drive 130 mi to my MIL, but then plug into 120V on her 80 year old wiring, how long would that take..? (And would her fuse panel explode..)

[Paper Chaser]

OK, interesting. But regardless of Elon (or in addition to), I'm not a fan of Tesla for a bunch of reasons. The wildly reported QC issues, crap construction etc. So, are there reasonable non-tesla EVs?! I've looked at the VW ID4, but it's $45k+? The Kia/Hyundai ones are similar. The chevy ones are tiny (and of course chevy is trash..). Honda/toyota is my preferred car, and they barely have any, and/or they're also $45-50k+

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!). So yeah, I really wanted to get an EV, but I could not make it make sense. Pretty bummed. I did the math every which way, and could not make the gas savings for an EV make sense for anything less than 150-200k miles of driving, which is a wash at best (and then you still have the range issues). Savings is maybe $1000/yr in gas, less electric cost. So $10k more would take at least 10 years to pay for itself.. And when you include investing that extra $15-20k which would double in that that time, it's even worse). I need a reasonable "normal sedan size" EV, with at least decent range, for mid $20k, out the door. Basically the same cost as an equivalent gas car. Then it would be interesting. Instead everyone seem to aim these at the "luxury" market at this point.

Separately, it seemed to me that EVs started out super-expensive, and were slowly moving down in the market. But now it has bottomed out, and they are moving upward again? E.g. honda has 1 ev! and it's a large "luxury SUV", starting at $50k.. Toyota is the same! Where's the EV civic? Why not an EV golf (instead of an SUV)? Why not a full EV prius? I watch a normal size hatchback EV goddamnit, from a reputable company! (no, the chevy things don't count, nor does BMW)

Honda's new EV is based on GM tech. Toyota's lone EV is based on a Subaru. You might have to get out of your comfort zone a little and question your preconceived notions about brands and quality/value.

By preconceived notions you mean all data on car reliability, long-term mechanical issues, lifetime costs etc? (and no, I don't mean JD power or CR rankings, which are absolute BS). I buy quality cars, so that I can drive them longer, without having to replace the transmission years earlier than I should have to. Every time I go through this exercise, I end up rejecting german cars, american cars, volvo, etc etc, because they just aren't reliable. It's not my choice, some of their cars are nice, but I simply won't put up with trash construction for it.

I'm saying that the old notion of "Buy the Honda/Toyota in the size/shape/price that you need and forget it" is becoming obsolete with EVs. EVs are enough of a paradigm shift in engineering, tech, manufacturing, etc to make ICE engineering/manufacturing expertise kind of irrelevant. It's still important to know how to bolt a car together, but the software and powertrains are so different from ICEs that they require very different skillsets and knowledge bases. EVs are also really expensive to develop/engineer, so you see many companies partnering up to share those development costs. So the person that follows the old advice and goes to buy a Honda EV is actually buying a GM EV. And the person that buys a Toyota BZ4x thinking they're getting the most reliable option, is getting an underperforming Subaru EV that doesn't compete with the alternatives on the market and represents horrible value.

[ColoradoTribe]

OK, interesting. But regardless of Elon (or in addition to), I'm not a fan of Tesla for a bunch of reasons. The wildly reported QC issues, crap construction etc. So, are there reasonable non-tesla EVs?! I've looked at the VW ID4, but it's $45k+? The Kia/Hyundai ones are similar. The chevy ones are tiny (and of course chevy is trash..). Honda/toyota is my preferred car, and they barely have any, and/or they're also $45-50k+

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!). So yeah, I really wanted to get an EV, but I could not make it make sense. Pretty bummed. I did the math every which way, and could not make the gas savings for an EV make sense for anything less than 150-200k miles of driving, which is a wash at best (and then you still have the range issues). Savings is maybe $1000/yr in gas, less electric cost. So $10k more would take at least 10 years to pay for itself.. And when you include investing that extra $15-20k which would double in that that time, it's even worse). I need a reasonable "normal sedan size" EV, with at least decent range, for mid $20k, out the door. Basically the same cost as an equivalent gas car. Then it would be interesting. Instead everyone seem to aim these at the "luxury" market at this point.

Separately, it seemed to me that EVs started out super-expensive, and were slowly moving down in the market. But now it has bottomed out, and they are moving upward again? E.g. honda has 1 ev! and it's a large "luxury SUV", starting at $50k.. Toyota is the same! Where's the EV civic? Why not an EV golf (instead of an SUV)? Why not a full EV prius? I watch a normal size hatchback EV goddamnit, from a reputable company! (no, the chevy things don't count, nor does BMW)

Only responding with a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rate of customer satisfaction. Build issues, mostly fit and finish, went out after the early days of the Model 3 ramp. Both of Tesla’s main models have been in production for years now. Models Y was the best selling car of any kind in the world in 2023. There have been no major mechanical or battery recalls. Most issues are corrected with over-the-air updates.

As for charging, the latest generation of supercharger can recharge a Tesla from 20% to 80% in approximately 20 minutes. Just long enough to strectch your legs, drain your bladder, and get a bite to eat. Your also charging at home overnight 95% of the time to refuel for daily use and never going to a gas station again.

Price of Tesla’s vehicles have moved down and are at or near all time lows. Cheapest model Y has gone from roughly $55k to $40k before credits.

[ColoradoTribe]

Volvo EX30 is $35k. The Hyundai Ioniq 6 is the cheapest vehicle of any type to lease in the US.

The Japanese car industry (especially Toyota) has been actively sabotaging the EV transition. Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Subaru and Mazda have affiliations with Toyota. Honda is doing shared development with GM (Honda Prologue is basically a Chevy Blazer). Nissan Ariya looks decent (still on the expensive side), but amazing that it took over a decade for them to introduce only their second EV model. I personally don't think we can rely on or wait for Japanese EVs. Even in ICE/hybrid development they have been stagnant for a decade.

Japanese are way behind the EV curve after their hydrogen fuel cell false start.

I think the Ioniq 5 is the most competent EV offering outside of Tesla available in the US, but the federal credit only applies to the lease as you mention. Argree on the Arriya. We are on our second LEAF. Far inferior engineering and tech compared to a Tesla, but it’s a reliable and affordable EV for a two-car household.

Anyone looking at purchasing an EV should ask the dealer the following questions:

1) Does the car have a heat pump or rely on AC/resistive heating? EVs without a heat pump will get far less range, especially in winter.

2) Does the battery pack have active thermal management to reduce the rate of battery degradation. Tesla will precondition the battery pack prior to supercharging sessions, which also prolongs battery life. Tesla vehicles have the lowest battery degradation rates in the industry.

3) Does the EV have access to the Tesla supercharger network? If so, how much does it cost per month (currently $14/month). Access to Tesla superchargers is free to Tesla owners. Fuel cost is $0.34/kwh.

4) Does the vehicle offer over-the air (OTA) updates? Tesla uses OTA updates to improve the vehicle after the purchase with free software upgrades like you get for a laptop computer. Tesla also resolves most recalls with OTA updates, saving trips back to the service center.

Those are just the 4 biggest differentiators IMO, there are dozens of others. Tesla offers tremendous value, especially at current pricing.

[ColoradoTribe]

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!).

For what it's worth, I can do a 300 mile round trip with, at most, one 30 minute charging break. Not six hours.

Ok, fair. I usually stop at the price of EVs, so have never done the necessary research on charging standards, reviewing network maps where I can charge, plug types etc etc.
e.g. we'd drive 130 mi to my MIL, but then plug into 120V on her 80 year old wiring, how long would that take..? (And would her fuse panel explode..)

Not to pile on, but don’t want any misinformation in this thread. All major car manufacturers have adopted Tesla’s North American Charging Standard (NACS). For older cars, adapters are available to make them work with NACS. So, going forward all brands will have access to Tesla’s nationwide supercharging network. Tesla EVs will plot your route and let you know where to stop to charge along the route. Non-Tesla vehicles will pay a monthly subscription to access the network, currently $13 or $14/month. Tesla Model Y has a 310 miles of range, so you wouldn’t even need to charge at the MIL's house.

[bacchi]

Only responding a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rated customer satisfaction.

By whom? I see Lexus on top for some surveys, and Rivian for EVs, but what survey rates Tesla on top for customer satisfaction?

[Scandium]

OK, interesting. But regardless of Elon (or in addition to), I'm not a fan of Tesla for a bunch of reasons. The wildly reported QC issues, crap construction etc. So, are there reasonable non-tesla EVs?! I've looked at the VW ID4, but it's $45k+? The Kia/Hyundai ones are similar. The chevy ones are tiny (and of course chevy is trash..). Honda/toyota is my preferred car, and they barely have any, and/or they're also $45-50k+

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!). So yeah, I really wanted to get an EV, but I could not make it make sense. Pretty bummed. I did the math every which way, and could not make the gas savings for an EV make sense for anything less than 150-200k miles of driving, which is a wash at best (and then you still have the range issues). Savings is maybe $1000/yr in gas, less electric cost. So $10k more would take at least 10 years to pay for itself.. And when you include investing that extra $15-20k which would double in that that time, it's even worse). I need a reasonable "normal sedan size" EV, with at least decent range, for mid $20k, out the door. Basically the same cost as an equivalent gas car. Then it would be interesting. Instead everyone seem to aim these at the "luxury" market at this point.

Separately, it seemed to me that EVs started out super-expensive, and were slowly moving down in the market. But now it has bottomed out, and they are moving upward again? E.g. honda has 1 ev! and it's a large "luxury SUV", starting at $50k.. Toyota is the same! Where's the EV civic? Why not an EV golf (instead of an SUV)? Why not a full EV prius? I watch a normal size hatchback EV goddamnit, from a reputable company! (no, the chevy things don't count, nor does BMW)

Only responding a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rated customer satisfaction. Build issues, mostly fit and finish, went out after the early days of the Model 3 ramp. Both of Tesla’s main models have been in production for years now. Models Y was the best selling car if any kind in the world in 2023. There have been no major mechanical or battery recalls. Most issues are correct with over the air updates.

As for charging, the latest generation of supercharger can recharge a Tesla from 20% to 80% in approximately 20 minutes. Just long enough to strectch your legs, drain your bladder, and get a bit to eat. There’s also charging at home overnight 95% of the time to refuse for daily use and never going to a gas station again.

Price of Tesla’s vehicles have moved down and are at all time lows. Cheapest model Y has gone from roughly $55k to $40k before credits.

Again, fair. I don't know much about charging rates overall, seems like it's actually gotten better (though I don't know how much is just claims vs real life; if you're on the correct 480V charger, with nobody else charging, with the right plug etc etc). If true that's not bad, actually usable for a longer trip. 

But even now googling tesla build issues bring up lots of articles. And not just on the atrocious cybertruck. I've seen report of terrible QC with tesla for years. And considering what we hear about the company culture not surprised.
This is for the JD power survey, 2022;
"tesla scored 226 on the assessment, which would still put the automaker in the bottom six positions on the list, tied with Mitsubishi. It would beat Volkswagen, Audi, Maserati, Volvo, and Chrysler, as well as Polestar,"
https://www.teslarati.com/teslas-build-quality-sees-slight-improvement-in-j-d-powers-2022-initial-quality-study/
So not worst, but not great either. And yeah no surprise people who buy luxury cars, with a cult-like following, report being "satisfied". I'd expect nothing less.

Or the "dependability studies", which I usually ignore since they only count the first few months/years don't look good for tesla. 27th out of 28? Worse than Jeep! lol.
https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reliability-poor-2021/
https://insideevs.com/news/489178/tesla-bombs-jd-powers-dependability-study/
Last one is actually based on owners of 3 year old cars.

And yes, you said ignore Elon, but that's also hard to do. Sure we ignore shitty CEOs all the time. But when the head of the company is a raving lunatic who support fascist and routinely repost white nationalist memes? (and bought a social network so he can do so!) I find it morally difficult to buy, and drive his car.

[desertadapted]

There are so many great inexpensive used EV’s right now.  For instance, you can get a used Bolt for $15 to $18K, plus a $4K fed tax credit (depending on income).  Perfect cars? No.  But great all the same.  Also, I’ve found that buying used EV’s comes with much less stress than with used ICE cars.  An engine is a delicate thing and you want to be sure that the prior owner was changing the oil and doing major engine maintenance roughly on schedule.  With an EV like a Bolt, it doesn’t matter.  The owner could have skipped all maintenance for five years and it wouldn’t make a stich of difference other than you’d be out the ~$300 it costs to do the 5-year maintenance.   There’s been a major shift in the number of reasonably priced used EV’s I’ve seen available in the last six months.  If we didn’t already have two, I’d be looking for another one.  If you’ve been cautious about EV’s but a ~$12-14K car after tax credit sounds like something you’d take a flier on, take a test drive.  Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good!  They’re a hoot.  No need to get caught up in the Tesla pro/con fights – there are a lot more fish in the sea. 

[FINate]

Yes, and we don't even need to make this a Tesla advert :)

All of Car and Driver's best EVs start at under $60k: https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-electric-cars

And only a couple of their top EV SUVs start at over $60k: https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-electric-suvs

Lots of options for those that don't want a Tesla. Even if Tesla is a consideration, you should cross shop other brands because there are so many good options these days.

[ColoradoTribe]

There are so many great inexpensive used EV’s right now.  For instance, you can get a used Bolt for $15 to $18K, plus a $4K fed tax credit (depending on income).  Perfect cars? No.  But great all the same.  Also, I’ve found that buying used EV’s comes with much less stress than with used ICE cars.  An engine is a delicate thing and you want to be sure that the prior owner was changing the oil and doing major engine maintenance roughly on schedule.  With an EV like a Bolt, it doesn’t matter.  The owner could have skipped all maintenance for five years and it wouldn’t make a stich of difference other than you’d be out the ~$300 it costs to do the 5-year maintenance.   There’s been a major shift in the number of reasonably priced used EV’s I’ve seen available in the last six months.  If we didn’t already have two, I’d be looking for another one.  If you’ve been cautious about EV’s but a ~$12-14K car after tax credit sounds like something you’d take a flier on, take a test drive.  Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good!  They’re a hoot.  No need to get caught up in the Tesla pro/con fights – there are a lot more fish in the sea.

My goal is not to talk down non-Tesla EVs here. But, two words of caution on buying a used Bolt. The Bolt has already had two recalls for the battery. The battery pack lacks thermal management as discussed above. GM has discontinued the Bolt and scaled back EV plans, so I would worry about the ability to get parts and service. There’s a low price and there’s good value. I can’t say a Bolt offers good value. Look to the Korean EVs or Tesla for the best value and best engineering IMO.

[ColoradoTribe]

Only responding a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rated customer satisfaction.

By whom? I see Lexus on top for some surveys, and Rivian for EVs, but what survey rates Tesla on top for customer satisfaction?

I’m doing your homework again it seems :)

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

https://thedetroitbureau.com/2022/02/tesla-tops-consumer-reports-2022-owner-satisfaction-ratings/

[FINate]

Only responding a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rated customer satisfaction.

By whom? I see Lexus on top for some surveys, and Rivian for EVs, but what survey rates Tesla on top for customer satisfaction?

I’m doing your homework again it seems :)

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

https://thedetroitbureau.com/2022/02/tesla-tops-consumer-reports-2022-owner-satisfaction-ratings/

These are based on Zutobi ratings that are around 2 years old now. Here's the latest: https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index (literally followed the link from your first article, which was updated in 2023)

The Model 3 and Y are now on the low end of owner satisfaction in the US.

[nereo]

Ok, fair. I usually stop at the price of EVs, so have never done the necessary research on charging standards, reviewing network maps where I can charge, plug types etc etc.
e.g. we'd drive 130 mi to my MIL, but then plug into 120V on her 80 year old wiring, how long would that take..? (And would her fuse panel explode..)

Since you seem to genuinely want info..,

If you are plugging into a family members normal 120v outlet you will add 3-4 miles range depending on the car. It’s slow, but overnight you can add 40-50 miles range. We do this when visiting in-laws and we can get a full charge arriving Friday night and leaving Sunday.

Next up is L2 chargers, which are seemingly everywhere in my area and are typically 7.2kw of 9.6kw. They can add about 30 miles range per hour, give it take. It’s great going to the library or brewery where we get (often free) charge. Virtually all hotels have them now and many parking garages, public lots etc.

For road trips you are talking about DC Fast Charging, or DCFC. Aka “level 3” (L3). Tesla calls them “Superchargers”*.
These fast chargers can add 200 miles or more in 30 minutes. They almost always cost money (except sometimes at car dealerships) and typically I see 40-45 ˘ per kw. So a 200 mile boost in range might cost about $15-20. Oh…many cars come with free 3 years of DCFC, so that’s nice too

I can reliably get 295 miles range in the warmer months, a bit more if I just drive conservatively. In the winter it’s closer to 200 miles. If we are doing a day trip of 300 miles we would plan a 15-20 minute stop at a DC fast charger or just ask if there’s someplace to plug in (L2 or even L1) overnight.

We recently did a trip from northern New England to DC in our EV. We stopped twice at DCFC for 30 minutes (using our free network charging). Both had Starbucks in walking distance so it was a nice break. Just a hair over 600 miles of driving in just over 11 hours, with stops. Charged overnight at my parents.

[ColoradoTribe]

Only responding a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rated customer satisfaction.

By whom? I see Lexus on top for some surveys, and Rivian for EVs, but what survey rates Tesla on top for customer satisfaction?

I’m doing your homework again it seems :)

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

https://thedetroitbureau.com/2022/02/tesla-tops-consumer-reports-2022-owner-satisfaction-ratings/

These are based on Zutobi ratings that are around 2 years old now. Here's the latest: https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index (literally followed the link from your first article, which was updated in 2023)

The Model 3 and Y are now on the low end of owner satisfaction in the US.

I had two links, both for 2022. One was a top ranking from Consumer Reports for customer satisfaction the other was from Zutobi, which is simply an aggregate score of consumer rankings. Model 3 was their top ranked in 2022. So, it’s pretty odd that the same Model 3 that was top ranked in 2022 dropped down to #17 in their top 20 the following year. Closer inspection reveals that Zutobi changed the inputs from 2022 from 2023, going from 4 rankings aggregated to 3 ranking aggregated. Only Edmunds’ ranking was an input for both years. Odd they would make such drastic changes to their system from one year to the next? It’s almost as if they wanted a different result.

Lastly, it is incorrect to say the Model 3 and Model Y are on the low end of customer satisfaction in the US. They’re still both in the top 20 (per Zutobi aggregate ranking) of all cars sold in the US. It’s a best of list, not an all inclusive list. The Tesla models are also the only EVs in the top 20.

I respectfully asked that this thread not go down the road of Tesla bashing. I just wanted people in the market for a car to be aware of recent price movements since Tesla does not widely advertise their pricing. I have been objective and factual to the best of my abilities. Tesla was ranked highest in customer satisfaction as recently as 2022 and remains high in custom satisfaction. Tesla also has some of the highest safety scores ever recorded.

[ColoradoTribe]

Yes, and we don't even need to make this a Tesla advert :)

All of Car and Driver's best EVs start at under $60k: https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-electric-cars

And only a couple of their top EV SUVs start at over $60k: https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-electric-suvs

Lots of options for those that don't want a Tesla. Even if Tesla is a consideration, you should cross shop other brands because there are so many good options these days.

No real argument here, but I put the world “quality" in the topic intentionally. I’m am pushing folks to consider EV adoption in general. Do consider all the options, but don’t just look at price and range. Look at the questions I listed above. Consider quality of engineering, charging options, battery management, range per KwH of battery capacity, etc. I will maintain that a Model Y SUV for under $35K (under $30k in some states) is the best value going in the EV space. But, don’t take me word for it, folks should talk to other EV owners and take test drives.

[RWD]

There are so many great inexpensive used EV’s right now.  For instance, you can get a used Bolt for $15 to $18K, plus a $4K fed tax credit (depending on income).  Perfect cars? No.  But great all the same.  Also, I’ve found that buying used EV’s comes with much less stress than with used ICE cars.  An engine is a delicate thing and you want to be sure that the prior owner was changing the oil and doing major engine maintenance roughly on schedule.  With an EV like a Bolt, it doesn’t matter.  The owner could have skipped all maintenance for five years and it wouldn’t make a stich of difference other than you’d be out the ~$300 it costs to do the 5-year maintenance.   There’s been a major shift in the number of reasonably priced used EV’s I’ve seen available in the last six months.  If we didn’t already have two, I’d be looking for another one.  If you’ve been cautious about EV’s but a ~$12-14K car after tax credit sounds like something you’d take a flier on, take a test drive.  Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good!  They’re a hoot.  No need to get caught up in the Tesla pro/con fights – there are a lot more fish in the sea.

My goal is not to talk down non-Tesla EVs here. But, two words of caution on buying a used Bolt. The Bolt has already had two recalls for the battery. The battery pack lacks thermal management as discussed above. GM has discontinued the Bolt and scaled back EV plans, so I would worry about the ability to get parts and service. There’s a low price and there’s good value. I can’t say a Bolt offers good value. Look to the Korean EVs or Tesla for the best value and best engineering IMO.

The Bolt battery pack does have thermal management. And GM is making another Bolt and have several other EVs on the way. I don't think EV support from GM is going to be a problem.

[desertadapted]

@ColoradoTribe
Yeah, you may be thinking of the Leaf, which didn’t have thermal management.  The Bolt has a liquid cooled battery.  I live in Arizona, which can get a bit warm, and battery integrity is fine. There was a battery recall, which resulted in me getting a 259-mile new battery (up from the original 238) after putting 80,000 miles on my first battery.  New battery.  New warranty.  I’m cool with it.  So cool that my family got a second Bolt used and got the new battery installed with purchase.  I got stoked about MMM back when it was an $8,000 used Nissan Leaf vibe, though I’ve watched with interest as it morphed into a fully-loaded Model Y vibe.  So my comments are more “don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good n’ cheap.”  There are solid deals on used long-range Model Y’s too for those playing at a higher price point.

[englishteacheralex]

Wait...what's wrong with a Nissan Leaf? Ours is working great.

[nereo]

Wait...what's wrong with a Nissan Leaf? Ours is working great.

First generation leafs lacked good thermal management (liquid cooling) which resulted in higher than expected battery degradation, especially in hot climates. Nissan moved to liquid cooling with subsequent generation leafs and the battery issue seems to have subsided.

[englishteacheralex]

We have a 2020 Leaf and so far, so good. We paid $25k for ours with 16k miles in 2023. I think we overpaid, but I still like the car and we've had no issues so far.

[Psychstache]

Wait...what's wrong with a Nissan Leaf? Ours is working great.

+1. 2022 Leaf here and loving it.

[Telecaster]

I have a 2013 Leaf and the battery is still at 90%. 

[dividendman]

Putting prices after the credits is misleading. Lots of people don't come close to having that much tax liability. Electric cars are just too expensive for who knows what you're getting.

When I bought my 2007 Toyota Prius in 2017, I knew what I was getting. It hasn't let me down. EVs haven't even been on the roads in any real numbers for much time. Who knows when and why they might start croaking.

It's better to buy a used 3rd or 4th gen EV in 10 years if the long term quality supports it while letting the big spenders test them out for us.

[RWD]

Putting prices after the credits is misleading. Lots of people don't come close to having that much tax liability. Electric cars are just too expensive for who knows what you're getting.

This year the EV credit is available at point of sale. You no longer need to have enough tax liability or wait for filing your tax return.

[JLee]

Putting prices after the credits is misleading. Lots of people don't come close to having that much tax liability. Electric cars are just too expensive for who knows what you're getting.

When I bought my 2007 Toyota Prius in 2017, I knew what I was getting. It hasn't let me down. EVs haven't even been on the roads in any real numbers for much time. Who knows when and why they might start croaking.

It's better to buy a used 3rd or 4th gen EV in 10 years if the long term quality supports it while letting the big spenders test them out for us.

Too expensive?  I bought a used Bolt in 2019 for $19k.  My SO bought a brand new one for $23k (after tax credit) last year.  Sure, if your go-to is a ten year old car with 150k miles on it, it's tough to compete in pricing -- but if you're looking for new-ish cars, there are certainly reasonable options out there.

Meanwhile I got a perfectly fine Civic for mid $20s. And I can do a trip of over 300 mi without a 6 hr charging break! (so for a long road trip we'd have to use our "big car", increasing our gas use!).

For what it's worth, I can do a 300 mile round trip with, at most, one 30 minute charging break. Not six hours.

Ok, fair. I usually stop at the price of EVs, so have never done the necessary research on charging standards, reviewing network maps where I can charge, plug types etc etc.
e.g. we'd drive 130 mi to my MIL, but then plug into 120V on her 80 year old wiring, how long would that take..? (And would her fuse panel explode..)

FWIW you can do a 260 mile round trip without charging with many EVs today.

Only responding a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rated customer satisfaction.

By whom? I see Lexus on top for some surveys, and Rivian for EVs, but what survey rates Tesla on top for customer satisfaction?

I’m doing your homework again it seems :)

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

https://thedetroitbureau.com/2022/02/tesla-tops-consumer-reports-2022-owner-satisfaction-ratings/

These are based on Zutobi ratings that are around 2 years old now. Here's the latest: https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index (literally followed the link from your first article, which was updated in 2023)

The Model 3 and Y are now on the low end of owner satisfaction in the US.

It's a little funny that the "it's just a car, I don't care what it looks like, I'll drive it til the wheels falls off" crowd is going on about "build quality."

When people complain about Tesla build quality, it's typically "this body panel is 1/8" off of where it should be" and "this interior panel squeaks sometimes", etc.  I put 29k miles on a Model 3 - the hood wasn't quite lined up right but I never cared enough to fix it. I had one warranty repair for an HVAC module about 3k miles in.  Sold it, bought a Lightning - WAY more complaints than my Tesla, despite it being made by a legacy automaker without an internet filled with "build quality" complaints.  Sold that, bought a Rivian.  It's awesome, has its new automaker quirks, but there's literally nothing else on the planet (at any price point) that I would rather drive.

I have good friends who had a Model 3 Performance for years, sold it - no issues. They have a Y Performance now and love it.  My SO just bought a Y LR and she loves it.  She had a Bolt EUV before that and loved it too - and will tell you the Y is a much nicer car.

The Model Y was the best selling car in the world last year.  There are going to be lots of complaints, but ultimately it is very good at what it does.

[ColoradoTribe]

There are so many great inexpensive used EV’s right now.  For instance, you can get a used Bolt for $15 to $18K, plus a $4K fed tax credit (depending on income).  Perfect cars? No.  But great all the same.  Also, I’ve found that buying used EV’s comes with much less stress than with used ICE cars.  An engine is a delicate thing and you want to be sure that the prior owner was changing the oil and doing major engine maintenance roughly on schedule.  With an EV like a Bolt, it doesn’t matter.  The owner could have skipped all maintenance for five years and it wouldn’t make a stich of difference other than you’d be out the ~$300 it costs to do the 5-year maintenance.   There’s been a major shift in the number of reasonably priced used EV’s I’ve seen available in the last six months.  If we didn’t already have two, I’d be looking for another one.  If you’ve been cautious about EV’s but a ~$12-14K car after tax credit sounds like something you’d take a flier on, take a test drive.  Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good!  They’re a hoot.  No need to get caught up in the Tesla pro/con fights – there are a lot more fish in the sea.

My goal is not to talk down non-Tesla EVs here. But, two words of caution on buying a used Bolt. The Bolt has already had two recalls for the battery. The battery pack lacks thermal management as discussed above. GM has discontinued the Bolt and scaled back EV plans, so I would worry about the ability to get parts and service. There’s a low price and there’s good value. I can’t say a Bolt offers good value. Look to the Korean EVs or Tesla for the best value and best engineering IMO.

The Bolt battery pack does have thermal management. And GM is making another Bolt and have several other EVs on the way. I don't think EV support from GM is going to be a problem.

I stand corrected on the Bolt’s BMS. Thanks. Marry Barra has made a lot of promises regarding GM’s EV ambitions and she has not delivered on any of them and has consistently scaled back ambitious plans after they were announced. I guess we’ll see if GM actually resumes production. I hope they do and I hope they move away from pouch batteries.

[ColoradoTribe]

@ColoradoTribe
Yeah, you may be thinking of the Leaf, which didn’t have thermal management.  The Bolt has a liquid cooled battery.  I live in Arizona, which can get a bit warm, and battery integrity is fine. There was a battery recall, which resulted in me getting a 259-mile new battery (up from the original 238) after putting 80,000 miles on my first battery.  New battery.  New warranty.  I’m cool with it.  So cool that my family got a second Bolt used and got the new battery installed with purchase.  I got stoked about MMM back when it was an $8,000 used Nissan Leaf vibe, though I’ve watched with interest as it morphed into a fully-loaded Model Y vibe.  So my comments are more “don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good n’ cheap.”  There are solid deals on used long-range Model Y’s too for those playing at a higher price point.

Glad to hear GM treated you right with the battery replacement. I’m familiar with the Nissan LEAF. We bought our first LEAF in 2012. Battery degraded 40%, but just missed qualifying for a free replacement. It was totaled when another driver ran a red light about 18 months ago. I was happy to take the insurance check. I do think there is a niche for the Bolt and LEAF at their price points, at least until Tesla stars producing its Model 2. However, I personally wouldn’t but a Mach-e or ID4 ov er a Model Y/3.

[ColoradoTribe]

I have a 2013 Leaf and the battery is still at 90%.

Issues were primarily with 2012 and earlier LEAF. Mia 2012 lost 40%-45% capacity by 60k miles.

[GilesMM]

There are so many great inexpensive used EV’s right now.  For instance, you can get a used Bolt for $15 to $18K, plus a $4K fed tax credit (depending on income).  Perfect cars? No.  But great all the same.  Also, I’ve found that buying used EV’s comes with much less stress than with used ICE cars.  An engine is a delicate thing and you want to be sure that the prior owner was changing the oil and doing major engine maintenance roughly on schedule.  With an EV like a Bolt, it doesn’t matter.  The owner could have skipped all maintenance for five years and it wouldn’t make a stich of difference other than you’d be out the ~$300 it costs to do the 5-year maintenance.   There’s been a major shift in the number of reasonably priced used EV’s I’ve seen available in the last six months.  If we didn’t already have two, I’d be looking for another one.  If you’ve been cautious about EV’s but a ~$12-14K car after tax credit sounds like something you’d take a flier on, take a test drive.  Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good!  They’re a hoot.  No need to get caught up in the Tesla pro/con fights – there are a lot more fish in the sea.

Until they apparently ran out of them, it was possible to get a brand new Bolt for $8,000 in CA.


https://insideevs.com/news/713571/chevy-bolt-discount-california/

[GilesMM]

Only responding a few points of factual contention with the above. Tesla has the highest rated customer satisfaction.

By whom? I see Lexus on top for some surveys, and Rivian for EVs, but what survey rates Tesla on top for customer satisfaction?

I’m doing your homework again it seems :)

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

https://thedetroitbureau.com/2022/02/tesla-tops-consumer-reports-2022-owner-satisfaction-ratings/

These are based on Zutobi ratings that are around 2 years old now. Here's the latest: https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index (literally followed the link from your first article, which was updated in 2023)

The Model 3 and Y are now on the low end of owner satisfaction in the US.

I had two links, both for 2022. One was a top ranking from Consumer Reports for customer satisfaction the other was from Zutobi, which is simply an aggregate score of consumer rankings. Model 3 was their top ranked in 2022. So, it’s pretty odd that the same Model 3 that was top ranked in 2022 dropped down to #17 in their top 20 the following year. Closer inspection reveals that Zutobi changed the inputs from 2022 from 2023, going from 4 rankings aggregated to 3 ranking aggregated. Only Edmunds’ ranking was an input for both years. Odd they would make such drastic changes to their system from one year to the next? It’s almost as if they wanted a different result.

Lastly, it is incorrect to say the Model 3 and Model Y are on the low end of customer satisfaction in the US. They’re still both in the top 20 (per Zutobi aggregate ranking) of all cars sold in the US. It’s a best of list, not an all inclusive list. The Tesla models are also the only EVs in the top 20.

I respectfully asked that this thread not go down the road of Tesla bashing. I just wanted people in the market for a car to be aware of recent price movements since Tesla does not widely advertise their pricing. I have been objective and factual to the best of my abilities. Tesla was ranked highest in customer satisfaction as recently as 2022 and remains high in custom satisfaction. Tesla also has some of the highest safety scores ever recorded.

Keep in mind customer satisfaction is different from independent third party rankings or even third party surveys of Quality (e.g JD Power). Customer satisfaction is partly a measure of effective car markers are at getting their products into the hands of people who love them and, in some cases, will potentially overlook issues/problems.  I might report I am 99% satisfied with my Model X to a customer satisfaction survey but tick ten boxes of broken things on a JD Power survey.  This is along the same lines as saying Chargers, Mustangs and Camaros are dangerous cars because a lot people are hurt in them.  People are hurt in them because they tend to be driven recklessly by idiots, not because they are inherently dangerous relative to cars which appeal to grandmas.


In the case of Tesla, there has definitely been an early adopter halo of satisfaction among owners who, as someone else demonstrated, are willing to overlook all sorts of appalling manufacturing defects because they generally like owning and driving the car.  If Tesla is able to get beyond the early adopter crowd and into the general population (which is in question now that their sales are dropping despite some of the most drastic price slashes the auto industry has seen), customer satisfaction will normalize to everyman drivers who will be more critical.  If they can improve quality at the same time, they may be ok, but they really need to get costs down quickly so let's see.

[LD_TAndK]

I'm hoping chevy can actually bring the Equinox EV to market at volume and anywhere near their stated price goals, which would be under $30k after all the tax rebates in my state. For a 300 mile range, 150 kW charging, and more interior space than the bolt.

I have little faith though

[FINate]

I respectfully asked that this thread not go down the road of Tesla bashing. I just wanted people in the market for a car to be aware of recent price movements since Tesla does not widely advertise their pricing. I have been objective and factual to the best of my abilities. Tesla was ranked highest in customer satisfaction as recently as 2022 and remains high in custom satisfaction. Tesla also has some of the highest safety scores ever recorded.

No one here is bashing Tesla. You're Tesla fan and invested in the company. And that's fine. But it's also reasonable for people to push for a broader perspective when you narrowly promote Tesla and imply other brands have quality issues. Like, don't tell us Tesla has the highest owner satisfaction ratings without citing your sources, get snippy when someone asks you to cite your source, then critique your own source when it doesn't say what you expected, and then accuse people of bashing Tesla for pointing out the facts.

[RWD]

I'm hoping chevy can actually bring the Equinox EV to market at volume and anywhere near their stated price goals, which would be under $30k after all the tax rebates in my state. For a 300 mile range, 150 kW charging, and more interior space than the bolt.

I have little faith though

Originally they proudly promised "around" $30k (presumably before incentives) which was the number on their website. Now the page removed all mentions of price and just says "request a quote." Looks like the actual launch models will start at $49k with a $35k version coming late this year (should be under $30k with incentives). Factoring inflation from when they first announced, a $35k version is definitely in line with expectations. I too hope they can deliver it in volume and without delays.

[dividendman]

Putting prices after the credits is misleading. Lots of people don't come close to having that much tax liability. Electric cars are just too expensive for who knows what you're getting.

This year the EV credit is available at point of sale. You no longer need to have enough tax liability or wait for filing your tax return.

Hrm... my understanding is that while you get the credit at point of sale... you still have to say that you claimed the credit so you'd then owe on your taxes if you don't have enough tax liability for it... am I wrong? It's not a refundable credit.

[Scandium]

FWIW you can do a 260 mile round trip without charging with many EVs today.

Yeah, with some. But a lot of the more affordable ones (which are still too expensive IMO) cite a range of 240-260 or so. And then I subtract 20% for "manufacturer optimistic estimate", and end up under 200 miles. So if we do our most common longish drive (except around town), we wouldn't even get there and back. And of course sometimes we drive 20-30 miles around there to visit family. From what someone else posted, charging on household outlet would take pretty long. But I think I could get the necessary ~100 mi from overnight charge? Maybe?
So then I'm paying $40k, almost double an equivalent ICE car, and not even sure I can use it for a simple trip, or it require extra planning and calculations? Go on a camping trip ~110+ miles away; have to figure out how to charge or I'm not getting back? Or I'm taking the (bigger) gas car instead, and then it actually cost me more than just having an efficient ICE!
I did learn here that non-teslas can actually use the network now (or in the future?), some at least? I read several explainers on it and still confusing. Some need adapters, but don't charge L3 speed, and some not at all.. And this is also just very recent so excuse me for not keeping up.

All this and it still takes me a decade+ of driving to make back the extra purchase cost in gas savings, if that?! I'd put up with this if the EV cost the same, and I was clearly saving money. But when I'm not even, what' the point?
Say it costs about $15k more typically. Invested over 10 years that's $30k. Divided by $3.50/gal * 33 mpg of my civic yields 283,000 miles! I can drive my ICE car that far and still come out ahead! And my car isn't even that efficient. Oh, i save some $80 oil changes, woho..

I want to like EVs. I'm not some car bro, don't give a shit about looks, or "big car go vroom". They're tools, just want to get from A to B as cheap as possible. And right now I just can't make it work. Sell the Ioniq 5 for $25k, I'd trade my ICE for it tomorrow..

[RWD]

Putting prices after the credits is misleading. Lots of people don't come close to having that much tax liability. Electric cars are just too expensive for who knows what you're getting.

This year the EV credit is available at point of sale. You no longer need to have enough tax liability or wait for filing your tax return.

Hrm... my understanding is that while you get the credit at point of sale... you still have to say that you claimed the credit so you'd then owe on your taxes if you don't have enough tax liability for it... am I wrong? It's not a refundable credit.

You are not the only person finding this unclear. I did some more research and found lots of people debating both sides of this. However, I did find an official IRS page saying if you transfer the credit to the dealer it is not subject to recapture.
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/topic-h-frequently-asked-questions-about-transfer-of-new-clean-vehicle-credit-and-previously-owned-clean-vehicles-credit

[dividendman]

Putting prices after the credits is misleading. Lots of people don't come close to having that much tax liability. Electric cars are just too expensive for who knows what you're getting.

This year the EV credit is available at point of sale. You no longer need to have enough tax liability or wait for filing your tax return.

Hrm... my understanding is that while you get the credit at point of sale... you still have to say that you claimed the credit so you'd then owe on your taxes if you don't have enough tax liability for it... am I wrong? It's not a refundable credit.

You are not the only person finding this unclear. I did some more research and found lots of people debating both sides of this. However, I did find an official IRS page saying if you transfer the credit to the dealer it is not subject to recapture.
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/topic-h-frequently-asked-questions-about-transfer-of-new-clean-vehicle-credit-and-previously-owned-clean-vehicles-credit

Oh cool, thanks. I guess that rule could change but it's good that it's there, for this year anyway.

[RWD]

Putting prices after the credits is misleading. Lots of people don't come close to having that much tax liability. Electric cars are just too expensive for who knows what you're getting.

This year the EV credit is available at point of sale. You no longer need to have enough tax liability or wait for filing your tax return.

Hrm... my understanding is that while you get the credit at point of sale... you still have to say that you claimed the credit so you'd then owe on your taxes if you don't have enough tax liability for it... am I wrong? It's not a refundable credit.

You are not the only person finding this unclear. I did some more research and found lots of people debating both sides of this. However, I did find an official IRS page saying if you transfer the credit to the dealer it is not subject to recapture.
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/topic-h-frequently-asked-questions-about-transfer-of-new-clean-vehicle-credit-and-previously-owned-clean-vehicles-credit

Oh cool, thanks. I guess that rule could change but it's good that it's there, for this year anyway.

No problem. I should also clarify that there are now income upper limits for buyer eligibility ($150k single/$300k married). If the buyer is not eligible because their income is too high then they may have to pay back the credit when filing taxes. In theory this issue should be caught at purchase time, but for someone making right near the threshold this could be a point of uncertainty. But those are also the people most able to absorb the difference.

[Scandium]

Ok, fair. I usually stop at the price of EVs, so have never done the necessary research on charging standards, reviewing network maps where I can charge, plug types etc etc.
e.g. we'd drive 130 mi to my MIL, but then plug into 120V on her 80 year old wiring, how long would that take..? (And would her fuse panel explode..)

Since you seem to genuinely want info..,

If you are plugging into a family members normal 120v outlet you will add 3-4 miles range depending on the car. It’s slow, but overnight you can add 40-50 miles range. We do this when visiting in-laws and we can get a full charge arriving Friday night and leaving Sunday.

Next up is L2 chargers, which are seemingly everywhere in my area and are typically 7.2kw of 9.6kw. They can add about 30 miles range per hour, give it take. It’s great going to the library or brewery where we get (often free) charge. Virtually all hotels have them now and many parking garages, public lots etc.

For road trips you are talking about DC Fast Charging, or DCFC. Aka “level 3” (L3). Tesla calls them “Superchargers”*.
These fast chargers can add 200 miles or more in 30 minutes. They almost always cost money (except sometimes at car dealerships) and typically I see 40-45 ˘ per kw. So a 200 mile boost in range might cost about $15-20. Oh…many cars come with free 3 years of DCFC, so that’s nice too

I can reliably get 295 miles range in the warmer months, a bit more if I just drive conservatively. In the winter it’s closer to 200 miles. If we are doing a day trip of 300 miles we would plan a 15-20 minute stop at a DC fast charger or just ask if there’s someplace to plug in (L2 or even L1) overnight.

We recently did a trip from northern New England to DC in our EV. We stopped twice at DCFC for 30 minutes (using our free network charging). Both had Starbucks in walking distance so it was a nice break. Just a hair over 600 miles of driving in just over 11 hours, with stops. Charged overnight at my parents.

Yes I do actually. Like I said I'm trying my best to like EVs, and make it work ($$)... Just not getting there unfortunately. Thanks for the charging explainer though, very interesting.

120V charging is surprisingly, horribly slow. good god.. So drive to my MIL Sat, plug it in, and Sunday (24hrs) I've barely added 70 miles? Ouch. I guess just about enough to get home, I'd better not do any driving up there!
(220 mi car - 130 mi + 70mi - 130 = 32.. Yikes, cutting it close. And consider a 220-250 mi range is probably more like <200 in real life? oof).

Anything below 300 mi range seems extremely limiting, and then you're talking $50k+

In my defense, the fact that other cars can now use Tesla charges seems to be relatively new. Last I saw this was not the case, so researching an EV required figuring out which network it could use, then overlay that map with your most likely driving routes.. And where you'd like to stop for 30-90 minutes. But from what I saw they cannot use the L3/supercharger speed? So on a road trip adding 30 mi/hr on L2 is not very helpful!

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/tesla-superchargers-open-to-other-evs-what-to-know-a9262067544/

Ok. So your CCS car can charge at a "magic dock"/V3/DCFC station (but not V2!) using a NCAS adapter, but only at L2 not L3?? And it will charge slower, maybe, nor maybe not. If your car is 480 V, but it could be 800V. And it might stop at half charge (Lucid). And you might need an app, or not. Confused yet?
It seems like at least it makes sense to wait until other cars have NCAS ports, which they claim will start with 2025 model years. So then wait for a reasonable 3 year old car, I'll consider it again in 2028 I guess..
 

[maizefolk]

I'd suggest rather than asking EVs to be identical ICEs in every use case, it is worth considering that they're already more convenient than ICEs in some contexts, while requiring a bit more time in others.

On a long drive with an EV you're probably looking at a 25-35 minute stop every three or four hours to charge vs a 5-10 minute stop for gas every ~4 hours. Even before other cars start using NACS and Tesla chargers, there are still a lot of level 3 chargers for CCS that can add hundreds of miles of charge in half an hour.

But in day to day use, I never have to go to gas station. That's not just the 5-10 minutes wasted buying gas every couple of weeks. It's never having to worry about stopping for gas when you're running late, because you start every day with a full charge. I never have to take time out of my day to go get my car's oil changed. YMMV but for me that already makes for a noticable better experience than an ICE when I've using my car locally, which is the vast majority of the time.

[Scandium]

I'd suggest rather than asking EVs to be identical ICEs in every use case, it is worth considering that they're already more convenient than ICEs in some contexts, while requiring a bit more time in others.

On a long drive with an EV you're probably looking at a 25-35 minute stop every three or four hours to charge vs a 5-10 minute stop for gas every ~4 hours. Even before other cars start using NACS and Tesla chargers, there are still a lot of level 3 chargers for CCS that can add hundreds of miles of charge in half an hour.

But in day to day use, I never have to go to gas station. That's not just the 5-10 minutes wasted buying gas every couple of weeks. It's never having to worry about stopping for gas when you're running late, because you start every day with a full charge. I never have to take time out of my day to go get my car's oil changed. YMMV but for me that already makes for a noticable better experience than an ICE when I've using my car locally, which is the vast majority of the time.

Yes that's true. And another reason I want EV to "work" (financially), because I hate scheduling and paying for oil change, and gas (who doesn't..). And yes driving around town it would of course be great (though with 2 people WFH it's not a whole lot of that thankfully.)
Like I said I'd be much more willing to put up with the pre-trip "charging stop planning" for longer trips if the cost was about the same, or less over a lifetime, for an EV. Or even a little more. But paying $20k more for the privilege?? That's the part I just can't get with. $50k+ for a flipping VW golf? Come on. That used to be a $20k car!

Looked at used Ioniq 5 now. Actually could get it for "only" ~$10k more than I paid for a civic. That's better. But I'd still rather have 10k more at vanguard.. At least we're getting closer. The ioniq 6 I had actually dismissed because the extreme slope kills the cargo space, but I see that because of it it's very efficient, so that 's cool. 300+ miles. I'll certainly keep an eye on these.

[JLee]

I'd suggest rather than asking EVs to be identical ICEs in every use case, it is worth considering that they're already more convenient than ICEs in some contexts, while requiring a bit more time in others.

On a long drive with an EV you're probably looking at a 25-35 minute stop every three or four hours to charge vs a 5-10 minute stop for gas every ~4 hours. Even before other cars start using NACS and Tesla chargers, there are still a lot of level 3 chargers for CCS that can add hundreds of miles of charge in half an hour.

But in day to day use, I never have to go to gas station. That's not just the 5-10 minutes wasted buying gas every couple of weeks. It's never having to worry about stopping for gas when you're running late, because you start every day with a full charge. I never have to take time out of my day to go get my car's oil changed. YMMV but for me that already makes for a noticable better experience than an ICE when I've using my car locally, which is the vast majority of the time.

Yes that's true. And another reason I want EV to "work" (financially), because I hate scheduling and paying for oil change, and gas (who doesn't..). And yes driving around town it would of course be great (though with 2 people WFH it's not a whole lot of that thankfully.)
Like I said I'd be much more willing to put up with the pre-trip "charging stop planning" for longer trips if the cost was about the same, or less over a lifetime, for an EV. Or even a little more. But paying $20k more for the privilege?? That's the part I just can't get with. $50k+ for a flipping VW golf? Come on. That used to be a $20k car!

Looked at used Ioniq 5 now. Actually could get it for "only" ~$10k more than I paid for a civic. That's better. But I'd still rather have 10k more at vanguard.. At least we're getting closer. The ioniq 6 I had actually dismissed because the extreme slope kills the cargo space, but I see that because of it it's very efficient, so that 's cool. 300+ miles. I'll certainly keep an eye on these.

The e-Golf is discontinued.  The electric ID.4 starts at $39,735 before tax credit, so $32,235.  The Golf GTI starts at $31,965.