Author Topic: New Yorker Article: The Scold - Mr. Money Mustache’s retirement (sort of) plan  (Read 173032 times)

arebelspy

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I'd also love to know how miniMMM is going to be in about 25 years.  For one thing, I get it's a controversial topic, but if my dad was stashing $400k/yr from basically passive blog income that he wasn't spending and then he told me to go find my own way to pay for college, I'd be a bit miffed. 

Hopefully they're teaching him about the pleasure and badassity of hard work, and setting him up to be successful in this without needing a handout.

I have faith they are.
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GuitarStv

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In his defense, the article never says what the resolution was.

This is true.

I just think as a kid it might be a bummer that going to a friend's house has to turn into a big discussion about the value of a $4 pack of cards.

Of course, I don't know the situation so I could be completely off base.

Mindfulness of money is important to enforce all the time.  Otherwise that 4$ pack of cards becomes a monthly 100$ cable bill, daily lattes, a car lease that's only 10$ a day, etc.

Most of the things my parents did that seemed like a bummer when I was a kid I can look back at now and call 'good parenting'.

Frankies Girl

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I personally really dislike this article, and would not be recommending it to anyone. Not that it wasn't entertaining and well written, but it was really, really slanted to paint Pete and his family as nutjobs.

I have to say, I do not agree with any of the following perceptions (I think the MMM philosophy is sound and I don't think anything negative like the following of Pete as a person or his family from what little I knew of him from reading his blog and other details gleaned over the years).

But the following are the impressions I took away from the article:

1. Pete did something that most people are incapable of doing: saving a massive amount of money (no mention of investing whatsoever that I recall, so it's all implied that he just saved it all himself and/or used his highly unique skillset to earn money in real estate flipping). He did this by working at high paying job(s) and marrying a woman that also was very highly paid and didn't mind saving most of their combined salary and doing without most all trappings of success.

2. He is judgmental and rude because he believes his ways are superior to all others. He makes fun of those he deems stupid for their "excessive" spending (the poor reporter was just concerned with his safety on the roads when choosing to upgrade to a 4 wheel drive SUV, but gets made fun of?), and has some OCD like tendencies that come across as out of touch with common social mores. He does not sound like a very nice person to talk to or hang out with.

3. He is an over-protective parent that provides no real structure for his kid. He apparently also has transferred his neurotic tendencies over to his child who is unnaturally reserved and coddled/insulated from participating in real life, sometimes to the point of even excluding him from participating in regular activities due to Pete's unnatural obsession with money and being cheap. His child is to be pitied for being so alone - and they even home school him - so that's even more isolating, and they won't even let him have some cheap game cards that the other kids were going to get at a get-together he wanted to attend. Way to make him feel even more different and cut off from his friends/peers!

4. His wife is barely mentioned, but one of the few references to her, she appears to be putting up with him being a lunatic and is long-suffering and might not be all that happy with his weirdness (and there is a huge emphasis on how weird and neurotic Pete is through the article).

5. It is revealed that Pete is a pothead. He identifies as a stoner, and ran out of his stash while the reporter was there (panic!), and attributes many of his MMM ideals as pot-fueled dreams. I do NOT like this angle at all. I'm not against pot smoking myself, but this is again the reporter's shading the story over to him being a crazy pot-smoking hippy dippy hipster who lucked into a high paying job and has enough OCD skills to support building his own house or repairing most things anyway, and doesn't mind doing weird ass things to save money, but he's definitely not in touch with reality at all... cause look! DRUGS. So once again, he's abnormal and adding in the (yes, legal in his state, but still) drug use emphasis makes it even easier to dismiss what he's saying. 

6. And finally, he's a huge hypocrite as his blog makes major league money. He isn't retired in any way shape or form; he just hit on an idea that resonated with a bunch of other freaky misfits that also make a ton of money but weren't real sure what to do with it. He has more money than he knows what to do with, but still obsesses over tiny things like that really even means anything, so he's really out of touch. Oh, but he might give away the money earned from the blog... not really discussed at all and it's sort of just a throwaway line. So you don't really have to believe it. ;) But yeah, the guy's rich as hell, and none of his "philosophy" really matters because of that. He just took advantage of a niche, monetized it and cashed in on all the suckers out there. So rich as hell Pete/MMM will tell you how to spend your money! And judge you for anything he deems wrong because - reasons!

Again, I don't agree with any of those points. That's just what I took away from the article reading it as a regular reader would see it. And I'm very sad and disturbed, since this paints MMM and Pete as a crazy, pitiful individual who has dragged his family along with him, but they put up with it for some unexplained reason, and all of this mess clouds the awesomeness that most all of us actually get from the MMM forum/blog.

Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

But now, it's been revealed that MMM is totally THIS guy with lots of petty foibles (especially since the reporter was kind of slanting everything as slyly negative as he could) and neurotic and OCD, and you shouldn't listen to the message because of this, and he's kind of a hypocrite being super rich and all... it clouds and muddies the real take-away. Feet of fucking clay is the reporter's take - and he makes sure to subtly hammer that into each paragraph.

Seriously, I don't think any of that mess. He has always come across as a nice guy, good head on his shoulders, good marriage with a partner/equal and a smart kid, and he enjoys optimizing and cutting unneeded fat out of his life. He isn't the neurotic guy from this article, and I hate that he is going to come across that way to anyone that reads about him for the first time. But then I guess, they're free to paint him with whatever brush they'd like and we'll have to hope that there are still people out there sick of the consumerist treadmill enough to do some more reading and decide for themselves. But I'm starting to think that the ability to read and make rational decisions and research independently is a dying art. :(

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 01:36:04 PM by Frankies Girl »

calimom

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Am I the only one that was a bit uncomfortable with the author's inclusion of personal details about MMM's son? 
At times it felt like a psycoanalysis on the boy's personality and upbringing.  Leave Mini MM out of it!

Yes and no.  On one hand, it's not about the kid.  On the other, MMM has kinda invited scrutiny on the raising of his kid given that he, IMO, throws a fair number of stones (if not directly at) in the general direction of people who don't prioritize quitting their jobs in order to stay home and school their kid(s).  And wrote at least one blog post about "If I ran the schools" etc.  Based SOLELY on the content of the article and a couple discussion points in the blog post(ie, I could easily be swayed otherwise with more information), it reinforces for me the negative stereotypes of homeschooling and the positive aspects of what my kid gets out of preschool when I drop her off on my way to work.


Only child home schooled by supersmart, super involved parents.  Semi reclusive.  Could there be a correlation?

And in an interview with a national magazine, just about anything is up for grabs.  I didn't see much that was unflattering and who knew about the cannabis oil!  Explains some stream of consciousness blog posts….

Chris22

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I'd also love to know how miniMMM is going to be in about 25 years.  For one thing, I get it's a controversial topic, but if my dad was stashing $400k/yr from basically passive blog income that he wasn't spending and then he told me to go find my own way to pay for college, I'd be a bit miffed. 

Hopefully they're teaching him about the pleasure and badassity of hard work, and setting him up to be successful in this without needing a handout.

I have faith they are.

You can talk about badassity and hard work all you want, but if you want your kid to go to college at a relatively traditional age (18-20ish to start), it's a pretty tall order to raise the $20k a year or so it's going to cost him to go to a decent school given the limited amount of time available to him to do so.  When can one even really start working (yeah yeah, MiniMMM gets $.10/mi on his bike, got it), 14-16?  Cue people telling me it CAN be done, but are people who espouse the merits of retiring ASAP really going to say that it's worth sacrificing teenage years to pay for college?  I dunno.  Seems like a pretty tough sell to me.

arebelspy

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Phenomenal post, Frankies Girl. I totally agree.
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arebelspy

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I'd also love to know how miniMMM is going to be in about 25 years.  For one thing, I get it's a controversial topic, but if my dad was stashing $400k/yr from basically passive blog income that he wasn't spending and then he told me to go find my own way to pay for college, I'd be a bit miffed. 

Hopefully they're teaching him about the pleasure and badassity of hard work, and setting him up to be successful in this without needing a handout.

I have faith they are.

You can talk about badassity and hard work all you want, but if you want your kid to go to college at a relatively traditional age (18-20ish to start), it's a pretty tall order to raise the $20k a year or so it's going to cost him to go to a decent school given the limited amount of time available to him to do so.  When can one even really start working (yeah yeah, MiniMMM gets $.10/mi on his bike, got it), 14-16?  Cue people telling me it CAN be done, but are people who espouse the merits of retiring ASAP really going to say that it's worth sacrificing teenage years to pay for college?  I dunno.  Seems like a pretty tough sell to me.

Yes, a combination of working before, and during, college, scholarships, grants, and loans make.it very feasible.
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CATman

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I don't think the article was negative or unflattering at all. I think it told things as they are and MMM would be totally ok with that. It also confirmed my thoughts that this whole site isn't really about money at all. It's about curbing the rampant consumerism that is not only destroying our financial lives, but the planet. FIRE is just a side effect.

AZDude

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Am I the only one that was a bit uncomfortable with the author's inclusion of personal details about MMM's son? 
At times it felt like a psycoanalysis on the boy's personality and upbringing.  Leave Mini MM out of it!

Yes and no.  On one hand, it's not about the kid.  On the other, MMM has kinda invited scrutiny on the raising of his kid given that he, IMO, throws a fair number of stones (if not directly at) in the general direction of people who don't prioritize quitting their jobs in order to stay home and school their kid(s).  And wrote at least one blog post about "If I ran the schools" etc.  Based SOLELY on the content of the article and a couple discussion points in the blog post(ie, I could easily be swayed otherwise with more information), it reinforces for me the negative stereotypes of homeschooling and the positive aspects of what my kid gets out of preschool when I drop her off on my way to work.

This is one of the exceptions of MMM practicing what he preaches, IMO. He wrote a whole blog post about Ivory Tower Schools and how its not necessary to send your kid to the best school in the best district and how great the local low income school was. Then later its revealed that mini-MMM withdrew from school due to unspecified "problems" and is now being homeschooled.

I have my problems with the idea of homeschooling, but they are very anecdotal and I'm not willing to get into a hardcore internet battle over the value of sending your kid to school. However, I could have predicted how an only child with wealthy FIREd parents would fare in a low income school. I went to a couple of low income elementary schools, and while its not too bad early on, every year older its gets a little bit tougher.

I never liked that article and feel like since it became a colossal failure in practice it should be taken down and not referenced.

MrsDinero

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In his defense, the article never says what the resolution was.

This is true.

I just think as a kid it might be a bummer that going to a friend's house has to turn into a big discussion about the value of a $4 pack of cards.

Of course, I don't know the situation so I could be completely off base.

Mindfulness of money is important to enforce all the time.  Otherwise that 4$ pack of cards becomes a monthly 100$ cable bill, daily lattes, a car lease that's only 10$ a day, etc.

Most of the things my parents did that seemed like a bummer when I was a kid I can look back at now and call 'good parenting'.

I thought the resolution was them using his sons used cards but wrapping them as new and they would pay for pizza.  The point is they don't want their child to learn that he has to spend a lot of money just to be with his friends.   I'm wonder why the boy's parent who are hosting the party didn't just pay for the pizzas themselves? It is almost like those MLM "parties" you are invited to but end up feeling pressured to buy something. 


blue mutant

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Re: New Yorker Article: The Scold
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2016, 01:43:40 PM »
I agree with everything that Frankie's Girl posted however, she left out one thing that may have more emotional impact than any other single point: the title. The Scold! Everyone loves hanging out with a scold right?

nereo

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I'd also love to know how miniMMM is going to be in about 25 years.  For one thing, I get it's a controversial topic, but if my dad was stashing $400k/yr from basically passive blog income that he wasn't spending and then he told me to go find my own way to pay for college, I'd be a bit miffed. 

Hopefully they're teaching him about the pleasure and badassity of hard work, and setting him up to be successful in this without needing a handout.

I have faith they are.

You can talk about badassity and hard work all you want, but if you want your kid to go to college at a relatively traditional age (18-20ish to start), it's a pretty tall order to raise the $20k a year or so it's going to cost him to go to a decent school given the limited amount of time available to him to do so.  When can one even really start working (yeah yeah, MiniMMM gets $.10/mi on his bike, got it), 14-16?  Cue people telling me it CAN be done, but are people who espouse the merits of retiring ASAP really going to say that it's worth sacrificing teenage years to pay for college?  I dunno.  Seems like a pretty tough sell to me.
By all accounts my parents were working professionals with quite a lot invested by the time we went to college, yet my siblings and I paid the bulk of our undergraduate and graduate educations through working, grants and loans.  At times I may have thought it unfair, but now it seems like "good parenting" to me.  And I don't think that I "sacrificed" my teenage years by having a summer job - those job experiences were probably my biggest asset both in college and shortly after graduating.  We plan on doing something similar for our child(ren) - we'll provide some assistance but they're going to have to pay at least a good portion of the way. 
(you did say "cue people telling me it CAN be done"). 

spud1987

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Re: New Yorker Article: The Scold - Mr. Money Mustache’s retirement
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2016, 01:45:26 PM »
I disagree with those saying this article was a hit-piece.

I think it presented the author's impressions after spending a week with MMM. If you were a reporter wouldn't you write about the $4 magic card story? It is a perfect example of how MMM lives his philosophy that 99% of the population (including me) would find odd. Same thing with the other anecdotes from the article. I enjoyed the fact that he focused on things that we don't see by just reading the blog. Especially since the blog presents mustachianism in the most positive light (e.g. omitting the mishap with adding storage to his car).

If anything, the article made me comfortable that I am not following all of MMM's habits. I can respect the ideas without agreeing with 100% of the practices of MMM himself.

dramaman

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I personally really dislike this article, and would not be recommending it to anyone. Not that it wasn't entertaining and well written, but it was really, really slanted to paint Pete and his family as nutjobs.

I have to say, I do not agree with any of the following perceptions (I think the MMM philosophy is sound and I don't think anything negative like the following of Pete as a person or his family from what little I knew of him from reading his blog and other details gleaned over the years).

But the following are the impressions I took away from the article:

1. Pete did something that most people are incapable of doing: saving a massive amount of money (no mention of investing whatsoever that I recall, so it's all implied that he just saved it all himself and/or used his highly unique skillset to earn money in real estate flipping). He did this by working at high paying job(s) and marrying a woman that also was very highly paid and didn't mind saving most of their combined salary and doing without most all trappings of success.

2. He is judgmental and rude because he believes his ways are superior to all others. He makes fun of those he deems stupid for their "excessive" spending (the poor reporter was just concerned with his safety on the roads when choosing to upgrade to a 4 wheel drive SUV, but gets made fun of?), and has some OCD like tendencies that come across as out of touch with common social mores. He does not sound like a very nice person to talk to or hang out with.

3. He is an over-protective parent that provides no real structure for his kid. He apparently also has transferred his neurotic tendencies over to his child who is unnaturally reserved and coddled/insulated from participating in real life, sometimes to the point of even excluding him from participating in regular activities due to Pete's unnatural obsession with money and being cheap. His child is to be pitied for being so alone - and they even home school him - so that's even more isolating, and they won't even let him have some cheap game cards that the other kids were going to get at a get-together he wanted to attend. Way to make him feel even more different and cut off from his friends/peers!

4. His wife is barely mentioned, but one of the few references to her, she appears to be putting up with him being a lunatic and is long-suffering and might not be all that happy with his weirdness (and there is a huge emphasis on how weird and neurotic Pete is through the article).

5. It is revealed that Pete is a pothead. He identifies as a stoner, and ran out of his stash while the reporter was there (panic!), and attributes many of his MMM ideals as pot-fueled dreams. I do NOT like this angle at all. I'm not against pot smoking myself, but this is again the reporter's shading the story over to him being a crazy pot-smoking hippy dippy hipster who lucked into a high paying job and has enough OCD skills to support building his own house or repairing most things anyway, and doesn't mind doing weird ass things to save money, but he's definitely not in touch with reality at all... cause look! DRUGS. So once again, he's abnormal and adding in the (yes, legal in his state, but still) drug use emphasis makes it even easier to dismiss what he's saying. 

6. And finally, he's a huge hypocrite as his blog makes major league money. He isn't retired in any way shape or form; he just hit on an idea that resonated with a bunch of other freaky misfits that also make a ton of money but weren't real sure what to do with it. He has more money than he knows what to do with, but still obsesses over tiny things like that really even means anything, so he's really out of touch. Oh, but he might give away the money earned from the blog... not really discussed at all and it's sort of just a throwaway line. So you don't really have to believe it. ;) But yeah, the guy's rich as hell, and none of his "philosophy" really matters because of that. He just took advantage of a niche, monetized it and cashed in on all the suckers out there. So rich as hell Pete/MMM will tell you how to spend your money! And judge you for anything he deems wrong because - reasons!

Again, I don't agree with any of those points. That's just what I took away from the article reading it as a regular reader would see it. And I'm very sad and disturbed, since this paints MMM and Pete as a crazy, pitiful individual who has dragged his family along with him, but they put up with it for some unexplained reason, and all of this mess clouds the awesomeness that most all of us actually get from the MMM forum/blog.

Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

But now, it's been revealed that MMM is totally THIS guy with lots of petty foibles (especially since the reporter was kind of slanting everything as slyly negative as he could) and neurotic and OCD, and you shouldn't listen to the message because of this, and he's kind of a hypocrite being super rich and all... it clouds and muddies the real take-away. Feet of fucking clay is the reporter's take - and he makes sure to subtly hammer that into each paragraph.

Seriously, I don't think any of that mess. He has always come across as a nice guy, good head on his shoulders, good marriage with a partner/equal and a smart kid, and he enjoys optimizing and cutting unneeded fat out of his life. He isn't the neurotic guy from this article, and I hate that he is going to come across that way to anyone that reads about him for the first time. But then I guess, they're free to paint him with whatever brush they'd like and we'll have to hope that there are still people out there sick of the consumerist treadmill enough to do some more reading and decide for themselves. But I'm starting to think that the ability to read and make rational decisions and research independently is a dying art. :(

I find it rather funny that folks are disappointed that the article for a high profile cultural magazine is not some some piece of fawning drivel about the awesomeness of mustachianism. Ultimately it was MMM's choice to give this reporter so much access. Unless there are details that the reporter got wrong, I don't think you can blame anyone other than MMM for details that you think portray MMM in a bad light and you wish were not included.

arebelspy

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A few points, AZD.

He didn't take his kid and stick him in private school or a super nice public one.  So it's not hypocritical.

Him homeschooling his son, based on his son's needs, doesn't negate that article.

And even if it did, are you arguing that he should keep his son in an environment worse for him just to fit with that article?  That would be ridiculous. But so would removing it, if he still believed in its principles, which I bet he does.

You may not agree, and that's fine. There are MMM articles I disagree with. But him doing the right thing for his son doesn't negate that article, and you not liking the article doesn't let you use that as "proof" it's bad.
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nereo

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awesome post, FrankiesGirl

Quote
Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

Agreed.  "Authenticity' aside, even if it were revealed that Pete is actually an overweight indebted 57 year old living in a McMansion and commuting 40 miles each way in his financed F-350 the messages of MMM would still hold merit - you can live a happy life and become FI simply by wasting less, saving more and seeking active (instead of passive) forms of entertainment.

Or as another poster put it once: I may have shown up here because of the leader, but I've stayed because of the cult.

dramaman

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awesome post, FrankiesGirl

Quote
Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

Agreed.  "Authenticity' aside, even if it were revealed that Pete is actually an overweight indebted 57 year old living in a McMansion and commuting 40 miles each way in his financed F-350 the messages of MMM would still hold merit - you can live a happy life and become FI simply by wasting less, saving more and seeking active (instead of passive) forms of entertainment.

Or as another poster put it once: I may have shown up here because of the leader, but I've stayed because of the cult.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure using the metaphor of a cult is really the best way to promote the benefits of mustachianism to newcomers.

arebelspy

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awesome post, FrankiesGirl

Quote
Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

Agreed.  "Authenticity' aside, even if it were revealed that Pete is actually an overweight indebted 57 year old living in a McMansion and commuting 40 miles each way in his financed F-350 the messages of MMM would still hold merit - you can live a happy life and become FI simply by wasting less, saving more and seeking active (instead of passive) forms of entertainment.

Or as another poster put it once: I may have shown up here because of the leader, but I've stayed because of the cult.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure using the metaphor of a cult is really the best way to promote the benefits of mustachianism to newcomers.

You're crazy.  Have some kool-aid.
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AZDude

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A few points, AZD.

He didn't take his kid and stick him in private school or a super nice public one.  So it's not hypocritical.

Him homeschooling his son, based on his son's needs, doesn't negate that article.

And even if it did, are you arguing that he should keep his son in an environment worse for him just to fit with that article?  That would be ridiculous. But so would removing it, if he still believed in its principles, which I bet he does.

You may not agree, and that's fine. There are MMM articles I disagree with. But him doing the right thing for his son doesn't negate that article, and you not liking the article doesn't let you use that as "proof" it's bad.

We don't have all the information, but based on what we do have, the school that MMM touts as superior or just as good as the fancy ones turned out to cause enough problems that they decided to homeschool. Clearly the local low income school is not the multi-cultural paradise claimed in the article. Again, sending an only child or wealthy, retired parents to a low income school had very predictable results.

I would never tell someone to put their kid in a terrible school just to prove some point, so lets not put words in my mouth. I clearly stated what I thought was the right move: taking the article down since MMMs feelings on the subject have changed. Its not right to continue advocating something you know to be false. Or at least writing a follow up about the lessons learned.

One of the best parts of the blog is that MMM really does do all the crazy stuff he writes about, which is why that article stands out so much.

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I find it rather funny that folks are disappointed that the article for a high profile cultural magazine is not some some piece of fawning drivel about the awesomeness of mustachianism. Ultimately it was MMM's choice to give this reporter so much access. Unless there are details that the reporter got wrong, I don't think you can blame anyone other than MMM for details that you think portray MMM in a bad light and you wish were not included.
I'm not accusing the reporter of slander here, nor am I particularly surprised that an article for the New Yorker didn't completely buy into the MMM lifestyle.  However, you can't control what someone else writes about you, and I do find this article to very disappointing.  As Frankie's Girl pointed out, it fits into the relm of "gotcha' journalism by trying to poke holes in a lifestyle by suggesting that its founder isn't perfect. The article opens up stating "Mr MMM ...isn't perfect."  The tenuous connection here is that imperfections in a leader somehow negate the validity of the message.
It's that insinuation that I object to.

dramaman

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awesome post, FrankiesGirl

Quote
Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

Agreed.  "Authenticity' aside, even if it were revealed that Pete is actually an overweight indebted 57 year old living in a McMansion and commuting 40 miles each way in his financed F-350 the messages of MMM would still hold merit - you can live a happy life and become FI simply by wasting less, saving more and seeking active (instead of passive) forms of entertainment.

Or as another poster put it once: I may have shown up here because of the leader, but I've stayed because of the cult.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure using the metaphor of a cult is really the best way to promote the benefits of mustachianism to newcomers.

You're crazy.  Have some kool-aid.

Yummm, I didn't know they made almond flavored koolaid. Yawn, I'm kinda tired. Time for a nap. ;)

arebelspy

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I clearly stated what I thought was the right move: taking the article down since MMMs feelings on the subject have changed.

I don't necessarily agree that his feelings have changed.

In fact, the article even says:
Quote
Some go even further and take up homeschooling with their kids. I admire these people and I believe it can be a great choice for those with the inclination to do it.

It seems like he's following the article even more and has just taken that further step!
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MrsDinero

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Call me crazy, but I'm not sure using the metaphor of a cult is really the best way to promote the benefits of mustachianism to newcomers.

You're crazy.  Have some kool-aid.

cult - noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious FIRE beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

dramaman

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I find it rather funny that folks are disappointed that the article for a high profile cultural magazine is not some some piece of fawning drivel about the awesomeness of mustachianism. Ultimately it was MMM's choice to give this reporter so much access. Unless there are details that the reporter got wrong, I don't think you can blame anyone other than MMM for details that you think portray MMM in a bad light and you wish were not included.
I'm not accusing the reporter of slander here, nor am I particularly surprised that an article for the New Yorker didn't completely buy into the MMM lifestyle.  However, you can't control what someone else writes about you, and I do find this article to very disappointing.  As Frankie's Girl pointed out, it fits into the relm of "gotcha' journalism by trying to poke holes in a lifestyle by suggesting that its founder isn't perfect. The article opens up stating "Mr MMM ...isn't perfect."  The tenuous connection here is that imperfections in a leader somehow negate the validity of the message.
It's that insinuation that I object to.

Objection noted. I'm not sure that is necessarily 'gotcha' journalism. Ultimately it was a profile on MMM more than anything else and when you are profiling an evangelist, it can be illuminating to reveal the hidden flaws and what makes them tick. I really didn't see much to get upset about. MMM uses marijuana. Okay, not that big a deal. He's a bit of a scold in regards to people over consuming. I suppose that is to be expected considering who he is. He can fixate on what some might consider minor details and sums of money for the sake of principle. Once again, not that surprising having read his posts.

Midwest

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awesome post, FrankiesGirl

Quote
Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

Agreed.  "Authenticity' aside, even if it were revealed that Pete is actually an overweight indebted 57 year old living in a McMansion and commuting 40 miles each way in his financed F-350 the messages of MMM would still hold merit - you can live a happy life and become FI simply by wasting less, saving more and seeking active (instead of passive) forms of entertainment.

Or as another poster put it once: I may have shown up here because of the leader, but I've stayed because of the cult.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure using the metaphor of a cult is really the best way to promote the benefits of mustachianism to newcomers.

Thought the article was interesting.  He lives his life how he sees fit.

There are some posters who think this is the gospel and/or a religion.  I find his lifestyle as presented both in the blog and article interesting.  I find the religious/judgemental aspects (not the tongue in cheek ones) from some posters offputting.  To me, MMM is a character who makes us think about how we live our lives. 

 I'll make my own choices as to how to apply to my life.   It has helped in thoughtful consideration of my financial actions.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 02:15:03 PM by Midwest »

AZDude

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I clearly stated what I thought was the right move: taking the article down since MMMs feelings on the subject have changed.

I don't necessarily agree that his feelings have changed.

In fact, the article even says:
Quote
Some go even further and take up homeschooling with their kids. I admire these people and I believe it can be a great choice for those with the inclination to do it.

It seems like he's following the article even more and has just taken that further step!

Well, lets just see the rest of the paragraph:

Quote
Personally, I am very happy with added random socialization added by the public school, and the added free time it provides us parents to balance our own lives back out during the school hours.

In rereading the article, it is not as bad as I remember, but it still advocates something that is untrue(using statistical and anecdotal evidence). They have all but admitted as such in future pieces. And yes, the homeschooling part was in the original article, but the point was that he went out of his way to make it sound like a school in a bad part of town with kids of deadbeat parents is just as much of a safe, conducive to learning environment as a nicer public school(let alone a private school). That simply is not true and never will be.

You were a teacher, surely you know how tough some schools can be.

tipster350

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I thought it was an interesting read. He probably is a little eccentric and takes optimization to the extreme and might be challenging to live with in some ways. The story reminds me of some comments made by some of the grown Daczyzyn (Tightwad Gazette) kids. One made a comment to the effect that she just wished she could have had a new pair of sneakers of her choosing once in her childhood.  Another made a comment about the bummer of having to wear unstylish clothes that don't fit great (one of them was tall and could never find pants made for tall girls in the second hand shops). But we don't have to live with him or the Daczyzyns. We can  benefit and learn from what they have provided and determine our own applications and balance points especially when it comes to when to say yes to extras for the kids.

Bertram

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Well, given how different the interpretations of the article are, and whether it was a hit piece, favorable, non-favorable, showed him as penny-pinching or not... it IMHO leaves the conclusion that the author probably did not have one specific angle for the story and so kept it pretty open.

But I hope that nobody is surprised that the article did not paint him as an actual mustache-twirling bad-ass. I sometimes do get the impression that some people get carried away with the promotional language of MMMs blog. Solving the consumerism/money topic does not automatically guarantee a happy life and super-awesomeness with everything else.

Somebody else mentioned MMM being a character and not the actual person behind it - I like that description, as it makes it clear that much like for example Scott Adams Blog (and other writing) it is not so much meant as "let me tell you what to think", but rather "here's an interesting perspective and if I apply logic and rigor to it this is where it leads. Now employ your brain and poke some holes in it to find where you stand and why you do not stand where this character stands". It's something to rub yourself against, to find inspiration and motivation but also to find out where you draw the line and why you disagree - not because either side is right or wrong, but because it's not about right or wrong, but rather about values, preferences and life choices which need to be a fit for your personality, your context and your abilities.

arebelspy

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You were a teacher, surely you know how tough some schools can be.

Absolutely. But I also agree with his main point, that putting so much pressure on our kids early by trying to get them into ivy league preschools, forcing all these activities on them, etc. is not only unnecessay, but potentially detrimental.
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iamlindoro

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I thought it was an interesting article.  Didn't see it as explicitly a hit-piece or an endorsement, but it surely emphasized his "outsider" status.

I think that any criticism of his parenting style is a little overblown. The truth is that all of us find something to take issue with in the way we were parented, and despite our best efforts to break the cycle, our own kids will find some fundamental flaw in our parenting. My own folks went too far with corporal punishment, and that has affected me deeply as an adult. I know that I'll never hit my kids, but I'm certain they will have their own legitimate gripes about my parenting.

In light of the inevitability of parental mistakes and the ability of children to fixate on them, being a little quirky or excessive in applying frugality are pretty low on the spectrum. The reality is that Mr. and Mrs. MM love their son and like most parents, they're just doing their best a day at a time.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 02:40:50 PM by iamlindoro »

MMM

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Hey Everyone!

I got word that this discussion was going on about the story and I thought it would be worth throwing in a thought or two.

First of all, while I think it is pretty good fortune to be featured in the New Yorker, I've learned that every story of this type comes with some pain. This one was no exception, and it may be a little worse for me personally than expected.

Overall it was still worth it because it should bring a lot more high-income eyeballs to the ideas I'm trying to share on the blog and hopefully change a few more minds about consumption and the purpose of life.

But yeah, some of the stuff Nick wrote seemed to be out of pure misunderstanding. Take the Magic the Gathering Cards debacle for example. In the NY story, it sounds like I tried to prevent my boy from hanging out with his buddies over 4 bucks. Here's what really happened:

- a friend invited him over to introduce him to the game. There was a $20 buy-in for whatever reason, as announced in the email from his dad. "Awesome!", we all said. We'll pay for you (rather than having him pay out of his own sizeable 'stash), since this is kind of a special thing more like a joining a sports team than just buying yourself a video game. He went, and had a great time

- at the big game night, each kid was given 4 decks of 15 cards each. These little packs cost $5 apiece. "Hmm, sounds like a bit of a racket", I thought to myself, but obviously this was not a big deal and I was glad he had a new pastime.

- Magic the Gathering really captured his imagination, so he dove in. We researched the game together and it turns out you can buy packs of ONE THOUSAND (1000) cards for 20 bucks on Amazon. You get a curated mixture of like-new and new cards from game shops, because the nation is swimming in Magic cards after 20 years of popularity. So we bought him a thousand-pack for his birthday, and another for Christmas. He built a huge portfolio of custom decks and started playing the game with friends all over town.

- Then another email comes from that first friend's dad: "Friday Night Magic Night again! Every kid should bring another 20 bucks!"

"Wait a minute - why would kids want to spend $20 on another few dozen cards when we already shared the news about the thousand packs and several of the kids bought them?" I asked his dad, who is a friend of mine.

"Oh, that's just what Tom likes to do, because he heard about these Friday Night Magic nights that the company that manufactures cards likes to promote"

It was at THIS point that I felt the conflict of trying to be easygoing vs. speaking out against what I feel is bullshit consumerism. So I told my son that he could certainly continue to go, but I felt it was a pretty expensive hobby for 9-year-olds, and he'd have to start using up his own money if he wanted to do so.

Meanwhile, I privately suggested to his dad that he squelch the $20 part of his son's game night and just encourage the kids to play for free.

As it turned out, his dad agreed and the game nights have been free since then.

That was a long sidetrack story, but I feel it represents the difference between the deprivation of cheapness and Mustachianism, which means pursuing only win/win situations. For example a bike is better for you AND cheaper. Working harder instead of being lazy makes you happier AND earns you more money.

Similarly, there were about ten other parts of the NY story where the tone misunderstood the reasons I do things. Like the part about "would not stay in a cubicle just to be able to afford a Tesla or a Dryer". My wife and I CAN afford both Teslas and dryers, we just don't buy them because they would not make our family any happier!

Finally, the part about the blog making a shitload of money last year - it's true and it surprises me just as much as it surprises anyone else. The blog gets equivalent traffic to newspapers that have dozens or hundreds of staff, so even with pretty minimal advertising stuff, it adds up.

But I think this is an endorsement rather than a subtraction of what I'm promoting. Remember, this whole MMM thing is secretly an environmental activism blog. It's about getting my fellow rich people to consume less, because we are the ones destroying the planet.

Whether you spend $25,000 or $25 million per year, you can extract full happiness from life - the extra products and "experiences" you can buy with the surplus money don't help once your true needs are met. But in order for rich people to believe this, they have to see it being done. They need to see someone who has the option of spending more money, and yet still does not do it. They need to see their peers doing this. So although I didn't expect to make THIS much money after retirement, it's pretty handy that I can continue to not buy too much shit and continue to live the same life as before. And use this surplus money for something other than just pampering myself or passing on a big estate to my descendants.

Addendum on Parenting/School Choices: it's always funny when people become judgemental over parenting choices when they haven't met either the parent or the child. But in case you're curious: we left the public school system a couple years back not because it was bad, and definitely not because it was "low income" as someone stated earlier (average house price in our neighborhood is about $500,000 these days), but because our boy has a generalized anxiety disorder.

This means that things that other kids might not even notice, can be sleep-destroying, sickness-inducing things to our son at this point in life. For example, while he's incredibly social with friends and constantly leading little groups in creative pursuits, he is DEADLY AFRAID of, say, arriving late for school and having to hang up his coat after everyone else has already hung up their coats. He eats exactly the same food every day for breakfast, lunch, snack, and dinner and is very fearful of new foods unless you reaaaaally work at it.

It's hard for an outsider to understand if you have never dealt with the condition before (and read a few books on it, there is a relevant chapter in Susan Cain's "Quiet".) - But we're working on it and making great progress. The condition comes with a lot of creativity benefits too, so there is no need to feel sorry for us. But it does mean our parenting experience is several times more intensive than what I see close friends get away with. (Your kids EAT AT RESTAURANTS, VOLUNTARILY JOIN SPORTS TEAMS, and PUT THEMSELVES TO BED!?!!)

Addendum on Marijuana: Oh, and as for the "Pothead" stuff, that was weird too. Here's how it really went down:
Nick was intrigued by the idea that marijuana is legal in Colorado. I do like the stuff, but I don't use it often and it is in plentiful supply around here so you rarely actually buy it. I have about a year's supply ($50 worth) sitting in my computer desk drawer as I type this, just left over from gifts from friends, dinner parties, whatever. But Nick seemed interested in going in to see what the legal weed buying experience is like.

So we walked down my street to "Native Roots", and each of us bought a little sample. I don't think we got around to partaking together since it was a busy week, but I still have the little oil refill thing I bought and it comes in handy occasionally.

Anyway, if you take the NY article with a good plate of salt, you can still get the general idea. It was lots of fun to work on it and Nick is a more fun guy in real life than he lets on as the author.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 01:16:41 PM by MMM »

MDM

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Hey Everyone!

I got word that this discussion was going on about the story and I thought it would be worth throwing in a thought or two.

And now we know...The Rest of the Story.  Thanks!

Stache-O-Lantern

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I agree it's easy too see how a reader could focus on points of the article that sound like negatives, but overall I think it's a case of any publicity is good publicity.  Although most who haven't heard of MMM might read and dismiss it, it could encourage some to check out the MMM site for themselves and be exposed to the articles.

Chris22

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You were a teacher, surely you know how tough some schools can be.

Absolutely. But I also agree with his main point, that putting so much pressure on our kids early by trying to get them into ivy league preschools, forcing all these activities on them, etc. is not only unnecessay, but potentially detrimental.

I think there is a bit of false dichotomy where you have home school, failing schools, and gold-plated ivy league pre-schools.  In reality, my daughter goes to a very good (blue ribbon something or other) church-related preschool (chosen with zero regard to religious undertones but instead because of quality and location) and will go to excellent public schools in a town with a median home price of $311k (which my house was just north of the average).  It's foolish to pay college tuition prices for a fancy private schools and eschew public, but it's also, IMO, silly to try to save a small amount of money and move to a place with subpar schools when you could buy into a slightly nicer community where the houses have a better chance of retaining value anyways. 

arebelspy

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Thanks for chiming in, MMM. 

Those clarifications make sense.  Hope it drives more traffic over to the blog, and catches a few people's eyes, who can then decide for themselves.  :)
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MDM

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FWIW, reddit and Bogleheads comments.

chrisdurheim

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Anyway, if you take the NY article with a good plate of salt, you can still get the general idea. It was lots of fun to work on it and Nick is a more fun guy in real life than he lets on as the author.

Cool to see your response. Definitely can't accept anything you read blindly. The article was great to show people that there are ways to live differently than they think they have to.

Frankies Girl

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awesome post, FrankiesGirl

Quote
Sigh. I honesty wish he'd not done this article. The less known about the man behind the curtain, the better. Pete is not MMM. MMM is an abstract, a character, a role in a situation dramady (cause I know many things he writes with a tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor) that we all tuned into and laughed with, learned from, and then went out and formed our own brand of MMM philosophy.

Agreed.  "Authenticity' aside, even if it were revealed that Pete is actually an overweight indebted 57 year old living in a McMansion and commuting 40 miles each way in his financed F-350 the messages of MMM would still hold merit - you can live a happy life and become FI simply by wasting less, saving more and seeking active (instead of passive) forms of entertainment.

Or as another poster put it once: I may have shown up here because of the leader, but I've stayed because of the cult.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure using the metaphor of a cult is really the best way to promote the benefits of mustachianism to newcomers.


I don't like the term cult either, as it implies you're giving up your ability to have rational thought and choice/opinion. I prefer "philosophy" because it allows and thrives with additional discussion from others - growing a beautiful, open mind instead of closing down and blindly following.

That's my take anyway.

I know that MMM's home pages uses "join the cult" in there somewhere... but again, I think that is more of the example of him holding up a mirror to the whole thing and poking fun at the status it's taken on more than a "blindly follow my teachings" type of thing. ;)




And MMM - your explanation of the Magic cards is exactly what I figured happened... but was twisted into a squicky mess by the reporter. I don't like that at all. I'm sure he's a perfectly lovely person in real life, but "reporter guy" him is a dick for how he slanted that piece. And you can't tell me he didn't intentionally chose to do so. He could have written a puff piece (which I also would have judged him harshly for) or a straight down the middle attempt at unbiased article peeling back the layers to get at the person behind the beliefs and all the thoughts and emotions that drive a person to try to live a life with these ideals. But he didn't.

I don't think the ideas of consuming less, preserving our environment and living life for the lovely intangibles (love, time, friendship and family) rather than consumerist material things is something that should be a secret - it's beautiful, and folks need to be reminded sometimes that there is more to life than the next freaking iPhone or Gucci handbag or fancy new car.

I don't get why he removed all the humanity, the tongue in cheek humor, the fun nerdist aspects of who you actually are - humor and cool nerd is essential to the MMM DNA - and he missed that completely.

Apparently crazy eccentric is way better a story than cool geeky dude learns how to live well below his means and still make his life an exploding volcano of awesomeness - and shows you how to do the same.

I think it was possible for him to discuss you and MMM without bias and still have had a clever and interesting article. I am sad he chose not to this. Mostly for those readers that will see this piece and write the MMM philosophy off as another extreme crackpot idea that only crazies would pursue.


mathlete

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Mindfulness of money is important to enforce all the time.  Otherwise that 4$ pack of cards becomes a monthly 100$ cable bill, daily lattes, a car lease that's only 10$ a day, etc.

Most of the things my parents did that seemed like a bummer when I was a kid I can look back at now and call 'good parenting'.

Edited to add: I posted this before seeing MMM's discussion of the MTG story. It sounds a lot better when he tells it rather than the story from the New Yorker.

Anyway, below is my original response for posterity:


The bolded is slippery slope logic which I'm not a huge fan of. I'm also not a fan of what seems like an attempt at programming what kids will ultimately find value in several years later as adults. Everyone has to find their own happiness. For some, that will end up being $100 worth of cable channels. So be it.

I've been hesitant to judge this too harshly in the prior two posts, but fuck it. Pete makes $400K a year judging everyone else's value system, so I'll do it too. This is bad. If the story is as it reads, turning a potential play date into a discussion about a $4 pack of trading cards and a potential friend's consumer tendencies and lack of 'bullshit detector' is bad.

It is failing to see the forest through the trees. It is penny-wise and pound-foolish. It is whatever idiom one cares to use when describing these things.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 04:01:28 PM by mathlete »

Parizade

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And you can't tell me he didn't intentionally chose to do so. He could have written a puff piece (which I also would have judged him harshly for) or a straight down the middle attempt at unbiased article peeling back the layers to get at the person behind the beliefs and all the thoughts and emotions that drive a person to try to live a life with these ideals. But he didn't.

I don't think the ideas of consuming less, preserving our environment and living life for the lovely intangibles (love, time, friendship and family) rather than consumerist material things is something that should be a secret - it's beautiful, and folks need to be reminded sometimes that there is more to life than the next freaking iPhone or Gucci handbag or fancy new car.

I think he was writing for his audience. I suspect the average reader of the New Yorker is very impressed with their ability to have the latest iphone or Gucci handbag and cling to that "superiority" as a means of defining themselves. The mustachian way of life is a direct challenge to all they hold dear. Of course they need to mock us in order to restore some semblance of balance to their warped values.

iamlindoro

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The bolded is slippery slope logic which I'm not a huge fan of. I'm also not a fan of what seems like an attempt at programming what kids will ultimately find value in several years later as adults. Everyone has to find their own happiness. For some, that will end up being $100 worth of cable channels. So be it.

You call it programming, but might one not also consider all parenting a form of programming? MMM (and many others here, myself included) obviously strongly believes in refining our definition of happiness and cultivating an attitude of abundance without needing to burden himself with more stuff, simply because he can afford it... why wouldn't he try to pass that sincerely held positive belief onto his son?

I've been hesitant to judge this too harshly in the prior two posts, but fuck it. Pete makes $400K a year judging everyone else's value system, so I'll do it too. This is bad. If the story is as it reads, turning a potential play date into a discussion about a $4 pack of trading cards and a potential friend's consumer tendencies and lack of 'bullshit detector' is bad.

I very much doubt Pete presented the situation to his son as his friend's father lacking a bullshit detector.  He presented it to mature adults as an amusing or playful way of calling out a shallow relationship with consumerism.

I'll turn the question around-- why *should* he endorse the weekly purchase of $20 worth of cards when his son has literally thousands already?  If his thought process was (as it appears to be) that all of these kids could have *exactly* the same level of enjoyment with the cards they already have while spending nothing more, where is the flaw in that logic?

It is failing to see the forest through the trees. It is penny-wise and pound-foolish. It is whatever idiom one cares to use when describing these things.

How much should Pete spend per year, per dollar earned, in order for it to be acceptable?

Midwest

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Mindfulness of money is important to enforce all the time.  Otherwise that 4$ pack of cards becomes a monthly 100$ cable bill, daily lattes, a car lease that's only 10$ a day, etc.

Most of the things my parents did that seemed like a bummer when I was a kid I can look back at now and call 'good parenting'.

Edited to add: I posted this before seeing MMM's discussion of the MTG story. It sounds a lot better when he tells it rather than the story from the New Yorker.

Anyway, below is my original response for posterity:


The bolded is slippery slope logic which I'm not a huge fan of. I'm also not a fan of what seems like an attempt at programming what kids will ultimately find value in several years later as adults. Everyone has to find their own happiness. For some, that will end up being $100 worth of cable channels. So be it.

I've been hesitant to judge this too harshly in the prior two posts, but fuck it. Pete makes $400K a year judging everyone else's value system, so I'll do it too. This is bad. If the story is as it reads, turning a potential play date into a discussion about a $4 pack of trading cards and a potential friend's consumer tendencies and lack of 'bullshit detector' is bad.

It is failing to see the forest through the trees. It is penny-wise and pound-foolish. It is whatever idiom one cares to use when describing these things.

Mathlete - Thanks you! 

Newsflash - MMM does not literally go up to the other dad and facepunch him over a $4 pack of cards. 

Now people are referring to a $4 pack of cards as a slippery slope in a serious manner.  It's a 1 time $4 expense not a ferrari.

The other day a gentlemen was berated because he had HBO.   As long as you make a conscious decision that $10 a month for HBO is cool (and that it impacts your finances) who cares.

BTW, the actual story (where he and the other dad decide not to blow $20 every time) is great.  $20 the first time was ok.  The habit needed to be discussed and an alternative was found.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 04:13:08 PM by Midwest »

Chris22

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The bolded is slippery slope logic which I'm not a huge fan of. I'm also not a fan of what seems like an attempt at programming what kids will ultimately find value in several years later as adults. Everyone has to find their own happiness. For some, that will end up being $100 worth of cable channels. So be it.

You call it programming, but might one not also consider all parenting a form of programming? MMM (and many others here, myself included) obviously strongly believes in refining our definition of happiness and cultivating an attitude of abundance without needing to burden himself with more stuff, simply because he can afford it... why wouldn't he try to pass that sincerely held positive belief onto his son?

...

How much should Pete spend per year, per dollar earned, in order for it to be acceptable?

But even MMM has his spendy things, he likes good beer, weed, nice tools (I was surprised at how freely he acknowledged spending on more $$$ tools can be better).  I don't think it's wrong to talk your kid out of trying to keep up on EVERY thing, but a more valuable lesson, to me, is to teach them if you spend on A you can't on B, etc.  I also would be willing to spend a little more without hesitation if it encouraged socialization by someone who maybe needed some.  How many times here have we seen "don't go out and spend $100 at the bar, but if everyone's going go buy 1-2 beers and make them last".  I don't know anything about Magic cards, but $20 for a party seems like the "1-2 beers" approach. 

iamlindoro

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But even MMM has his spendy things, he likes good beer, weed, nice tools (I was surprised at how freely he acknowledged spending on more $$$ tools can be better).  I don't think it's wrong to talk your kid out of trying to keep up on EVERY thing, but a more valuable lesson, to me, is to teach them if you spend on A you can't on B, etc.  I also would be willing to spend a little more without hesitation if it encouraged socialization by someone who maybe needed some.  How many times here have we seen "don't go out and spend $100 at the bar, but if everyone's going go buy 1-2 beers and make them last".  I don't know anything about Magic cards, but $20 for a party seems like the "1-2 beers" approach.

OK, but look at the *actual* sequence of events here:

1) Mr. and Mrs. MM buy MMM Jr. several thousand cards over time.
2) MMM Jr. is invited to a gathering, and MMM pays the "buy in."
3) Subsequent invites also involve a "buy in."
4) MMM tells MMM Jr. that he's free to continue to go, and is prepared to allow him to spend his money on it if he would like.
5) MMM asks the friend's dad if the buy in is really necessary, and friend's dad agrees that it's not.
6) Everyone continues playing with the same level of enjoyment, but no recurring cost.

What part of what actually happened would we like to see occur differently?  Should MMM just have paid it because he can easily afford it?  I feel like literally everyone came out ahead in this situation.

mathlete

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You call it programming, but might one not also consider all parenting a form of programming? MMM (and many others here, myself included) obviously strongly believes in refining our definition of happiness and cultivating an attitude of abundance without needing to burden himself with more stuff, simply because he can afford it... why wouldn't he try to pass that sincerely held positive belief onto his son?

Parents run the house and the finances so it is ultimately up to them what their kids consume and what they don't. What I was against was the idea that a magic card pack might one day turn into a latte or a cable bill when the kid is an adult. That kind of logic is a bit too hands on for me.


I very much doubt Pete presented the situation to his son as his friend's father lacking a bullshit detector.  He presented it to mature adults as an amusing or playful way of calling out a shallow relationship with consumerism.

I'll turn the question around-- why *should* he endorse the weekly purchase of $20 worth of cards when his son has literally thousands already?  If his thought process was (as it appears to be) that all of these kids could have *exactly* the same level of enjoyment with the cards they already have while spending nothing more, where is the flaw in that logic?

I see this as sort of a "parents just don't understand" thing. Part of the fun of trading card games is the randomness. The thrill of opening up a pack and possibly getting a rare card. I understand that this sounds like gambling. And it does. And it is. That doesn't mean it isn't fun though. And as an aside, part of how I learned that gambling in excess is dumb and the perceived rarity of one card over another is meaningless was by buying this stuff as a kid.

Anyway though if the kids are happy playing with old cards though, then no issues here.

How much should Pete spend per year, per dollar earned, in order for it to be acceptable?

No comment on this.

If you didn't see, I edited my post to add a little blurb about reading MMM's side of the MTG story. I didn't delete this post or any other post because I qualified everything I said and I stand by it all.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 04:24:26 PM by mathlete »

iamlindoro

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Parents run the house and the finances so it is ultimately up to them what their kids consume and what they don't. What I was against was the idea that a magic card pack might one day turn into a latte or a cable bill when the kid is an adult. That kind of logic is a bit too hands on for me.

Sure, I follow your logic, but at the same time, I think it's reasonable to say that in light of what actually occurred, it was the right time to teach the lesson/question the recurring nature of the cost.  MMM Paid, then it became a regular event with the same cost.  Rather than essentially signing on to a "subscription," it was the right time to question whether or not it was strictly necessary. 

I dunno, I just feel like this was the right time and place for the lesson.  Want to do something?  Go for it, enjoy it.  Want to do it every week at the same cost? Evaluate for necessity and whether the cost is proportionate to the enjoyment.  I think that these same thought processes do ultimately apply to lattes and cable bills.

For what it's worth, I am not just mindlessly defending MMM-- I disagree with him on certain topics, too. I just see it from the perspective of my own previously unhealthy relationship with money, and for me, it definitely started with writing off spending as "a part of having fun" or "something I can easily afford."

I see this as sort of a "parents just don't understand" thing. Part of the fun of trading card games is the randomness. The thrill of opening up a pack and possibly getting a rare card. I understand that this sounds like gambling. And it does. And it is. That doesn't mean it isn't fun though. And as an aside, part of how I learned that gambling is dumb and the perceived rarity of one card over another is meaningless was by buying this stuff as a kid.

I truthfully never played these games (though I did collect some collectible cards). In light of the lesson you learned, might you have the same response if you were in MMM's shoes? What would be the better way to teach the lesson of questioning the necessity of spending?

If you didn't see, I edited my post to add a little blurb about reading MMM's side of the MTG story. I didn't delete this post or any other post because I qualified everything I said and I stand by it all.

Saw it, thanks for doing it.  Think it came in after I had responded.

Jsn

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The piece was, unfortunately but inevitably, written/edited to fit the tone of the New Yorker: wry, eyebrow-archingly cynical, and ultimately comforting to its target demographic. To expect anything else of a publication that's financed by selling ads for Cadillac SUVs and other luxury lifestyle products would be naive.

The writer's intent wasn't to examine the principles behind FI/RE: it was to paint a portrait of a "colorful" individual. This is why eccentricities were highlighted, his adherents were relegated to shadowy, supporting roles, and no effort was made to place his achievements in context. There were certainly no attempts to evaluate the efficacy of his philosophy, much less understand how it might be effectively applied to others. The foofraw about game cards and his mother-in-law's underwear existed only to make the average reader roll their eyes: that wacky pot-smoking, beer-drinking, Colorado utopianist crank!

The ultimate cheap shot was the $400K annual income from this website. Instead of that being used to demonstrate the power of his ideas, it was presented as if they undermined them--as if the success of the website somehow made his lifestyle an eccentric hobby. Never mind that he doesn't make use of that money or even live in its shadow, thereby making it about as relevant as his shoe size. (Speaking of the physical realm: was anyone else creeped out by the reference to his being in shape, and how that was somehow threatening?)

In other words the article, like so much media these days, comes pre-consumed: the expected reader reaction is already baked into the tone of the piece. To read it, it's implied, is tantamount to thinking about the topic at hand. I guess I'm glad it'll help at least a few new people find their way to MMM, but on the whole I think it exemplifies why Pete was prudent to craft a semi-anonymous persona in the first place.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 06:48:16 PM by Jsn »

PhysicianOnFIRE

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It was great to be able to read the article, and the subject's response in the same sitting.  It really goes to show how an article can be factual and fail to represent the truth at the same time.

Thanks for weighing in, MMM.  Trying to do my part to get some other rich folks on board with at least some of the concepts you espouse. -PoF

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Appreciated MMM weighing in. Always nice to hear the context behind snippets.