Author Topic: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting  (Read 36913 times)

mistymoney

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #200 on: September 08, 2022, 07:11:51 PM »
The thread may have changed my behavior this week!

I hired a cleaning service to come every other week for 2 months as I hurt my ankle. I was surprised to get a survey and was asked to rate the cleaning after the visit. They had a 5 point star system and you could do half stars. I thought cleaning was fine, maybe 3.5 to 4.5, some things not quite up to par, but she seemed diligent and I'm willing to see if it improves as she gets familiar with the house over the next month.

I really thought hard about what the consequences were for her - and me - of giving my "honest opinoin". After this thread seems nothing good for her. Would she clean harder next time she came after I said "this isn't good enough for a 5!" I doubt it. She was punctual and ran a wet sponge/rag/scrubber/mop over everything. If that is all I get these next 2 months - is that ok? Yes, that is ok. Is anything I say on this survey going to get my house cleaner next time? Likely not. I just gave her a 5 and moved on with my day.

I don't think I would have done a 5 if it wasn't for this thead. While I usually rate higher than I "feel" if it is a specific identifiable person getting the rating (if they get in trouble), or if I can be identified and have an interest in ongoing contact/services (retaliation). I'm the anti-karen who fears service employee retaliation if I make complaints, lol! Am I ever going to get a coffee at that starbucks again? Keep a lid on it!

But I likely would have gone with 4.5 stars if not for ready this thread. The futility of giving nuanced feedback, my opinoins on measurement, and the irrelevancy of my fastidious standards was made quite clear to me.


slappy

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #201 on: September 09, 2022, 07:02:05 AM »
The thread may have changed my behavior this week!

I hired a cleaning service to come every other week for 2 months as I hurt my ankle. I was surprised to get a survey and was asked to rate the cleaning after the visit. They had a 5 point star system and you could do half stars. I thought cleaning was fine, maybe 3.5 to 4.5, some things not quite up to par, but she seemed diligent and I'm willing to see if it improves as she gets familiar with the house over the next month.

I really thought hard about what the consequences were for her - and me - of giving my "honest opinoin". After this thread seems nothing good for her. Would she clean harder next time she came after I said "this isn't good enough for a 5!" I doubt it. She was punctual and ran a wet sponge/rag/scrubber/mop over everything. If that is all I get these next 2 months - is that ok? Yes, that is ok. Is anything I say on this survey going to get my house cleaner next time? Likely not. I just gave her a 5 and moved on with my day.

I don't think I would have done a 5 if it wasn't for this thead. While I usually rate higher than I "feel" if it is a specific identifiable person getting the rating (if they get in trouble), or if I can be identified and have an interest in ongoing contact/services (retaliation). I'm the anti-karen who fears service employee retaliation if I make complaints, lol! Am I ever going to get a coffee at that starbucks again? Keep a lid on it!

But I likely would have gone with 4.5 stars if not for ready this thread. The futility of giving nuanced feedback, my opinoins on measurement, and the irrelevancy of my fastidious standards was made quite clear to me.

You can still give the feedback outside of the survey.

Captain FIRE

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #202 on: September 09, 2022, 07:15:15 AM »
My guess is the white rule (that I am aware of but could care less about) is mostly another way to show off wealth.  It means you have clothes that you do not wear 9 months of the year (back when people had MUCH MUCH fewer clothes than now).  White is also a very hard color to keep clean, particularly pre-washing machine days, so it meant you did not work a labor intensive job and had leisure time/more likely servants to keep your clothes clean. Cities were also much dirtier than with dirt streets and no pavement.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #203 on: September 09, 2022, 07:23:15 AM »
The thread may have changed my behavior this week!

I hired a cleaning service to come every other week for 2 months as I hurt my ankle. I was surprised to get a survey and was asked to rate the cleaning after the visit. They had a 5 point star system and you could do half stars. I thought cleaning was fine, maybe 3.5 to 4.5, some things not quite up to par, but she seemed diligent and I'm willing to see if it improves as she gets familiar with the house over the next month.

I really thought hard about what the consequences were for her - and me - of giving my "honest opinoin". After this thread seems nothing good for her. Would she clean harder next time she came after I said "this isn't good enough for a 5!" I doubt it. She was punctual and ran a wet sponge/rag/scrubber/mop over everything. If that is all I get these next 2 months - is that ok? Yes, that is ok. Is anything I say on this survey going to get my house cleaner next time? Likely not. I just gave her a 5 and moved on with my day.

I don't think I would have done a 5 if it wasn't for this thead. While I usually rate higher than I "feel" if it is a specific identifiable person getting the rating (if they get in trouble), or if I can be identified and have an interest in ongoing contact/services (retaliation). I'm the anti-karen who fears service employee retaliation if I make complaints, lol! Am I ever going to get a coffee at that starbucks again? Keep a lid on it!

But I likely would have gone with 4.5 stars if not for ready this thread. The futility of giving nuanced feedback, my opinoins on measurement, and the irrelevancy of my fastidious standards was made quite clear to me.

I would expect a 4.5 to be perfectly fine in this context. As I've clarified before, the consequence is usually that there's bonus pay attached to perfect or near perfect ratings, or correction offered for mid-range ratings. 4.5 is a pretty near-perfect rating, and I've never seen a business that would dole out negative consequences for a staffer for getting a near-perfect score.

Perhaps it exists, but I've never seen it.

ETA: for my particular industry, only the doctors are rated, not the staff, although there is a category for "staff" in our personal ratings. I *do* follow up with staff whenever I see a sub-5 rating just to see if there was an incident, and there consistently was. So it is possible that an employer could see any deviation from perfect as an indication that something wasn't quite right.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 07:25:24 AM by Malcat »

RetiredAt63

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #204 on: September 09, 2022, 07:26:15 AM »
My guess is the white rule (that I am aware of but could care less about) is mostly another way to show off wealth.  It means you have clothes that you do not wear 9 months of the year (back when people had MUCH MUCH fewer clothes than now).  White is also a very hard color to keep clean, particularly pre-washing machine days, so it meant you did not work a labor intensive job and had leisure time/more likely servants to keep your clothes clean. Cities were also much dirtier than with dirt streets and no pavement.

Part of it was white shoes.  If you think white clothes are hard to keep clean, try white shoes!

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LennStar

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #205 on: September 09, 2022, 08:36:13 AM »
I half regret asking the question, the fashion answers totally overload my autistic brain part. :D

seattlecyclone

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #206 on: September 11, 2022, 10:30:11 AM »
I'm a bit late to the whole survey rating scale discussion. I have a relevant workplace anecdote though. I implemented a "net promoter score" survey on our app because the board members wanted it. This is basically an industry standard survey where you ask people "How likely are you to recommend our product/service to others?" and you have an 11-point scale. 0 is marked "Not at all likely" and 10 is marked "extremely likely." Sometimes they give you a free-form text field below the rating scale to explain why you gave that rating. I'm sure you've all seen this exact survey question a dozen times in different places.

Now, an important thing to note is it's not simply asking you how much you personally liked the product, but it's asking how likely you are to proactively recommend it to others.

Before I became aware of how this survey is something of an industry standard, with a standard way of interpreting it, I would often give a perfectly honest "0" for products that I thought were perfectly fine. No matter how good your HR software is I'm not going to go around mentioning it to my friends at parties. I'm sorry, there's just no chance. Even really good products I'd give a 5 or 6. Again, I thought the product did its job well but you really need to go above and beyond before I even think about spontaneously bringing it up in conversation.

Then I found out that the industry standard for interpreting this survey question is that only 9 or 10 are considered "promoters", which are good, 7 or 8 is "passive" or neutral, and 0 to 6 are "detractors" which are bad. You as a company compute your score by subtracting the percentage of detractors from the percentage of promoters, and this score is apparently supposed to give you some good insights on how well your business is tracking toward the future.

Now, like @GuitarStv I'm an engineer. I see a number line. I see that 6 is a bit closer to the "extremely likely to recommend" side of the number line than the "not at all likely to recommend" side of the number line. Before I learned how these surveys were used I naively considered 6 to be a rather decent review: a "kind of likely to recommend." 6, by my unlearned estimation, is certainly more positive than negative, but considering it "neutral" (along with 4) would be reasonable as well.

I see @Malcat's point as well: that most people have no idea how to use a number line and they therefore cluster all their positive responses in the very end of the range. Does that mean most people are pessimists who leave a lot more room for bad than good in their mind? I digress. Anyway, yes we should interpret the data according to the way most people interpret the rating scale.

If the rating scale itself leaves so much room for individual interpretation, and reasonable people can use different numbers to represent the same opinion, isn't that a problem?

I did see one "net promoter score" survey recently that was laid out brilliantly. They had the same standard question, same 0-10 rating scale, but they actually used green coloring to mark the 9-10, yellow for the 7-8, and red for the 0-6. This way the engineers coming into the survey wouldn't assume that each mark on the number line represents an equal increase from terrible to great. I'll note this product was designed and used mostly by engineers, so perhaps they were tired of seeing responses of "1. I love your product but I honestly try to avoid getting myself into social situations where cloud deployment technology would be relevant to the conversation."

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #207 on: September 11, 2022, 11:03:42 AM »

I see @Malcat's point as well: that most people have no idea how to use a number line and they therefore cluster all their positive responses in the very end of the range. Does that mean most people are pessimists who leave a lot more room for bad than good in their mind? I digress. Anyway, yes we should interpret the data according to the way most people interpret the rating scale.

If the rating scale itself leaves so much room for individual interpretation, and reasonable people can use different numbers to represent the same opinion, isn't that a problem?

Omg, this is such an engineer take on what I've said.

Lol, the rating scales produce pretty reliable results. People who rate "satisfactory" as a 3/5 are remarkably rare.

I also definitely never said that people don't know how to use a rating scale, just that the factors that motivate their ratings are different than some people here would use in making their decisions as to what to rate.

They're the overwhelming majority, and their scores generally reflect their experience, to a point that as I said, if someone rates a 4/5 for staff in my ratings, I can rather accurately predict the degree of negative incident that occurred in order to result in that score.

It's some of the more consistent feedback data I've ever had to work. It's especially useful since in customer service, it's not really the pissed off people you need to be aware of, it's the happy enough, but slightly put off by an experience folks who need to be most carefully monitored, because they represent the generally satisfied customers who are at risk of losing loyalty.

Someone who hates me was never going to be a loyal client in the first place, but someone who generally likes me, but was kind of irritated by me or my staff or something else about how we do business represents a hugely valuable income source that could be lured away.

Those 4/5 reviews have actually been the most informative in terms of actionable changes that can be made to sustain customer loyalty.

It's the people who when asked are happy enough with the experience not to criticize, but bothered enough to dock a mark that are the ones most likely to take their business elsewhere.

So for me, the way patients use the rating system rather reliably provides actionable, useful data.

Now, I'm just talking about my industry and my experience with them. Perhaps they are beyond useless or misleading for other industries, who knows.

Do I find it annoying that people use ratings this way? Absolutely, because I too am prone to engineering-type thinking. I get especially irritating with the negative reviews, that I have ever gotten a bottom-level score on punctuality is just factually ridiculous. But I would never say that the ratings are incorrect, or not useful, or producing bad data, or that people are using them wrong.

We have a tool, most people reliably use it a certain way that produces quite accurate, actionable data, and a small subset of the population use it differently, producing wonky results that are thankfully rare enough not to be too much of a flying the ointment.

Just because it's not the way I would naturally rate businesses and service providers doesn't make it wrong or inaccurate. I don't get to dictate what numbers should mean, I can only interpret what the majority mean when they use them.

seattlecyclone

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #208 on: September 11, 2022, 11:20:20 AM »
All of what you just said makes sense. On a five-point scale, a 5 represents "good. no notes," while 4 represents "good, but..." There's obviously a lot of useful information to be gained from the people saying "but..."

The 10-point scale on the other hand, I was very surprised to learn that the industry standard was that 6/10 = bad. Not "pretty good, but...", not "okay," just straight up bad. I had been answering those surveys "wrong" for some time, and maybe I am this huge outlier. If I'm not, it would be very useful to better mark what the numbers between 0 and 10 actually mean so that we're all on the same page. The one survey I mentioned did exactly that with the simple coloring and I think that was a great idea.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #209 on: September 11, 2022, 11:27:09 AM »
All of what you just said makes sense. On a five-point scale, a 5 represents "good. no notes," while 4 represents "good, but..." There's obviously a lot of useful information to be gained from the people saying "but..."

The 10-point scale on the other hand, I was very surprised to learn that the industry standard was that 6/10 = bad. Not "pretty good, but...", not "okay," just straight up bad. I had been answering those surveys "wrong" for some time, and maybe I am this huge outlier. If I'm not, it would be very useful to better mark what the numbers between 0 and 10 actually mean so that we're all on the same page. The one survey I mentioned did exactly that with the simple coloring and I think that was a great idea.

Lol, yep, there's an entire science to developing rating scales and interpreting them.

Each factor you add or leave out of a survey question impacts how people reply to it.

Villanelle

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #210 on: September 11, 2022, 12:29:54 PM »
I always interpreted the "how likely to recommend" not as, "scream unsolicited from the rooftops," but more "if someone you know is looking for a [type of business], how likely are you to say, 'Oh, you should definitely to to Doe's on Main Street for your type-of-business needs."  And how vehemently I'd recommend. 

For a ten, it would be that I basically insist they use Doe's, or many even that I'd recommend it without the subject of type-of-business ever coming up. "WOW!  I had the best experience I've ever had with a dry cleaner.  If you ever need a dry cleaner, definitely go to Doe's!"   

To me, less than 5 is that I'd probably recommend against using Doe's.  A 0 means, that even unprompted, I'd tell them people how terrible Doe's is, and to avoid at all costs.  A 4 means something along the lines of "I may or may not find a new dry cleaner but nothing catastrophic happened."  I wouldn't go to great lengths to avoid using Doe's, but  all other things being about equal, I'd go elsewhere.  So maybe that means it smells funny or it always takes them a very long time to find my order when I go to pick it up, but they aren't actively rude and didn't ruin my items.

6/10 would mean something along the lines of "unremarkable". 

Sibley

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #211 on: September 11, 2022, 12:43:49 PM »
Quote
a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!)
Huh? Could you explain that? @Villanelle

Which part?  The bit about wearing white, or the whole thing? @LennStar

Ooh, ooh, I know that!!!

In certain socio-economic/cultural classes, women are Not to Wear White before Memorial Day or after Labor Day. Its basically an exclusionary middle to upper class WASP social rule. If you don't know the rule, or otherwise do not comply with the rule for whatever reason, you could be looked down upon by the arbitrary appointed Important Women.

I grew up with that rule, though not really enforced. No idea if it's a thing in the UK, though decent chance it at least used to be a thing.

Does it mean no white whatsoever, as in, you shouldn't be wearing a white blouse with suit pants, or does it mean no wearing all white? Also, would that mean you would not be able to wear a white coat or jacket during winter at all?
I am asking because I grew up in rural and suburban (suburban = bad in Europe) communities in Eastern Europe but there was also a kinda unspoken rule that you would only wear an all-white or dominantly white outfit like a white dress or white pants during summer.  I can't even explain it, it was just a thing you picked up on.
But white winter coats and winter jackets were seen as "classy".

I just find it interesting, I imagine we would have picked it up from TV, but it was really widespread, I literally remember wondering if white pants were acceptable in September (by October they would most definitely not be, September was still summer weather so it was hard to tell, but we don't have Labour day in September, we have it in May).

My understanding is that it is significant white.  IOW, you can wear a print that has a small amount of white in it, but not white pants.

As for that white winter coat, I believe in fashion circles there is a color referred to as "winter white", which is just slightly off-white. 

In defense of my friends, I am certain she wouldn't be judgmental about someone wearing white today.  She may not wear it herself, but she's not snobby about it.  I mentioned it as a brief way of saying, "very old-school, traditional, WASPy values".

This. Remember that this primarily applied to upper class women, and those wanted to be upper class women. As far as I know, "white" meant white-white, not off white, not cream, not winter white, etc. Also, white-white was difficult and expensive to achieve and maintain so it was functionally out of reach for lower income people.

scottish

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #212 on: September 11, 2022, 02:52:14 PM »


I see @Malcat's point as well: that most people have no idea how to use a number line and they therefore cluster all their positive responses in the very end of the range. Does that mean most people are pessimists who leave a lot more room for bad than good in their mind? I digress. Anyway, yes we should interpret the data according to the way most people interpret the rating scale.

If the rating scale itself leaves so much room for individual interpretation, and reasonable people can use different numbers to represent the same opinion, isn't that a problem?

Omg, this is such an engineer take on what I've said.

Lol, the rating scales produce pretty reliable results. People who rate "satisfactory" as a 3/5 are remarkably rare.

I also definitely never said that people don't know how to use a rating scale, just that the factors that motivate their ratings are different than some people here would use in making their decisions as to what to rate.

They're the overwhelming majority, and their scores generally reflect their experience, to a point that as I said, if someone rates a 4/5 for staff in my ratings, I can rather accurately predict the degree of negative incident that occurred in order to result in that score.

It's some of the more consistent feedback data I've ever had to work. It's especially useful since in customer service, it's not really the pissed off people you need to be aware of, it's the happy enough, but slightly put off by an experience folks who need to be most carefully monitored, because they represent the generally satisfied customers who are at risk of losing loyalty.

Someone who hates me was never going to be a loyal client in the first place, but someone who generally likes me, but was kind of irritated by me or my staff or something else about how we do business represents a hugely valuable income source that could be lured away.

Those 4/5 reviews have actually been the most informative in terms of actionable changes that can be made to sustain customer loyalty.

It's the people who when asked are happy enough with the experience not to criticize, but bothered enough to dock a mark that are the ones most likely to take their business elsewhere.

So for me, the way patients use the rating system rather reliably provides actionable, useful data.

Now, I'm just talking about my industry and my experience with them. Perhaps they are beyond useless or misleading for other industries, who knows.

Do I find it annoying that people use ratings this way? Absolutely, because I too am prone to engineering-type thinking. I get especially irritating with the negative reviews, that I have ever gotten a bottom-level score on punctuality is just factually ridiculous. But I would never say that the ratings are incorrect, or not useful, or producing bad data, or that people are using them wrong.

We have a tool, most people reliably use it a certain way that produces quite accurate, actionable data, and a small subset of the population use it differently, producing wonky results that are thankfully rare enough not to be too much of a flying the ointment.

Just because it's not the way I would naturally rate businesses and service providers doesn't make it wrong or inaccurate. I don't get to dictate what numbers should mean, I can only interpret what the majority mean when they use them.

scottish

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #213 on: September 11, 2022, 02:53:53 PM »

I see @Malcat's point as well: that most people have no idea how to use a number line and they therefore cluster all their positive responses in the very end of the range. Does that mean most people are pessimists who leave a lot more room for bad than good in their mind? I digress. Anyway, yes we should interpret the data according to the way most people interpret the rating scale.

If the rating scale itself leaves so much room for individual interpretation, and reasonable people can use different numbers to represent the same opinion, isn't that a problem?

Omg, this is such an engineer take on what I've said.

Lol, the rating scales produce pretty reliable results. People who rate "satisfactory" as a 3/5 are remarkably rare.

I also definitely never said that people don't know how to use a rating scale, just that the factors that motivate their ratings are different than some people here would use in making their decisions as to what to rate.

They're the overwhelming majority, and their scores generally reflect their experience, to a point that as I said, if someone rates a 4/5 for staff in my ratings, I can rather accurately predict the degree of negative incident that occurred in order to result in that score.

It's some of the more consistent feedback data I've ever had to work. It's especially useful since in customer service, it's not really the pissed off people you need to be aware of, it's the happy enough, but slightly put off by an experience folks who need to be most carefully monitored, because they represent the generally satisfied customers who are at risk of losing loyalty.

Someone who hates me was never going to be a loyal client in the first place, but someone who generally likes me, but was kind of irritated by me or my staff or something else about how we do business represents a hugely valuable income source that could be lured away.

Those 4/5 reviews have actually been the most informative in terms of actionable changes that can be made to sustain customer loyalty.

It's the people who when asked are happy enough with the experience not to criticize, but bothered enough to dock a mark that are the ones most likely to take their business elsewhere.

So for me, the way patients use the rating system rather reliably provides actionable, useful data.

Now, I'm just talking about my industry and my experience with them. Perhaps they are beyond useless or misleading for other industries, who knows.

Do I find it annoying that people use ratings this way? Absolutely, because I too am prone to engineering-type thinking. I get especially irritating with the negative reviews, that I have ever gotten a bottom-level score on punctuality is just factually ridiculous. But I would never say that the ratings are incorrect, or not useful, or producing bad data, or that people are using them wrong.

We have a tool, most people reliably use it a certain way that produces quite accurate, actionable data, and a small subset of the population use it differently, producing wonky results that are thankfully rare enough not to be too much of a flying the ointment.

Just because it's not the way I would naturally rate businesses and service providers doesn't make it wrong or inaccurate. I don't get to dictate what numbers should mean, I can only interpret what the majority mean when they use them.

Maybe you can put a screw in with a hammer.  A screwdriver still works better.

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #214 on: September 11, 2022, 03:01:40 PM »
Maybe you can put a screw in with a hammer.  A screwdriver still works better.

I bet the hammer would be better if you were torturing someone by driving screws into them.

teen persuasion

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #215 on: September 11, 2022, 03:05:25 PM »
All of what you just said makes sense. On a five-point scale, a 5 represents "good. no notes," while 4 represents "good, but..." There's obviously a lot of useful information to be gained from the people saying "but..."

The 10-point scale on the other hand, I was very surprised to learn that the industry standard was that 6/10 = bad. Not "pretty good, but...", not "okay," just straight up bad. I had been answering those surveys "wrong" for some time, and maybe I am this huge outlier. If I'm not, it would be very useful to better mark what the numbers between 0 and 10 actually mean so that we're all on the same page. The one survey I mentioned did exactly that with the simple coloring and I think that was a great idea.
Yeah, w/o color coding I'd interpret 5 as the midpoint = neutral point on the scale, would neither promote or disparage the product.  Anything over 5 is promotion, just varying degrees. Anything under 5 is negative, again varying degrees.


This brings back memories of college when my major profs would give a wicked mid-term exam and the raw scores would average 40%.  "Ooh, good test!  I stumped you with the questions.  Guess I'll need to curve it."  We'd be frantic, trying to get them to divulge *exactly* how they were going to curve the grades (on a class of 8).  And they'd wave their hands, "Don't worry about it."

But what does a 40% map to, and how will that affect my final GPA??!?

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #216 on: September 11, 2022, 03:47:23 PM »
Maybe you can put a screw in with a hammer.  A screwdriver still works better.

Ah. Okay, so you're sticking with the "my way is better" stance.

I'll stick with my thinking that if the data produces reliable, meaningful, actionable interpretation, then it's a good tool.

We're both entitled to our perceptions.

Gremlin

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #217 on: September 11, 2022, 04:59:04 PM »
One issue I have with quality surveys is that the questions being asked are often quite... lazy.  I will answer them honestly, but I recognise that there is often a clear difference between what they ask and how they may interpret my response.  I feel like that's not MY problem though.

I'll give an example.  I got a survey from my local metropolitan public transport provider after I travelled two stops on the local suburban train the other day.  The train arrived on time, it was clean and it got me to my destination as expected.  It was completely unmemorable, which is exactly how I like my train trips.

The question they asked was a stock standard NPS question, giving no thought to the nature of the specific interaction.  It was "Unprompted, how likely would you be to recommend <Rail Service> to your friends or family?".  I answered honestly, which is "Never".  I don't recommend <Rail Service> to anyone unprompted.  I've NEVER heard ANYONE recommend <Rail Service> unprompted.  In fact, there's very few products and services that I've EVER heard anyone recommend unprompted (there's a particular cleaning product that my MIL loves which is the exception to the rule).  Prompted is potentially a different story - if someone asked how they should get to the destination I was heading, I'd likely recommend using <Rail Service>.  But that's not the question they asked.

If instead, they had asked "Did the <Rail Service> meet your expectations?", with a scaling of "Failed to Meet" to "Met Expectations" to "Exceeded Expectations", I would have answered "Met Expectations".  If they asked me why, I would have elaborated that it arrived on time, it was clean and it got me to my destination as expected.

Alternatively, they could have asked "What could be done to improve your experience?", in which case I would have answered "Nothing".  Again, I would have elaborated that it arrived on time, it was clean and it got me to my destination as expected.  I was wholly satisfied with my experience.

So depending on how they seek the feedback they will get an answer that they will interpret as "Very Poor", "Poor" or "Good".  This is a failure of survey design, not of my ability to follow their instructions.  Things like colour coding points on the scale or comments that "only 9s and 10s count as positive" are methods to counter the failure of poor quality marketers to construct decent surveys.

I see a lot of survey design in what I do.  Good quality surveys don't need these caveats or explanations because the alignment of anticipated responses between the marketers and the human behaviour they are trying to understand is clear and coherent, both to those doing the survey and those interpreting results.  Good quality surveys will allow the business why their "gold star customer" only gave them 4/5 this time round when they always give them a 5 or whether that 2/5 rating customer sees you as transactional or a trusted brand (and transactional may be okay for many customers).  Poor quality surveys are, unfortunately, far more common.

scottish

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #218 on: September 11, 2022, 05:55:59 PM »
Maybe you can put a screw in with a hammer.  A screwdriver still works better.

Ah. Okay, so you're sticking with the "my way is better" stance.

I'll stick with my thinking that if the data produces reliable, meaningful, actionable interpretation, then it's a good tool.

We're both entitled to our perceptions.

No I'm trying to explain our point of view.

First people seem to be using it wrong.   As you point out that's  what people do and they aren't going to change.

Then we think "there must be a better design... "

 This is a bit of a silly example - quality surveys - especially because businesses get good value out of the existing design.

But that's how a lot of "engineering types" will think.   Thousands of tiny innovations gave us smart phones and antilock brakes and so on.  So we often find ourselves looking for improvements...

Paul der Krake

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #219 on: September 11, 2022, 06:07:29 PM »
5 stars = did as expected or slightly better
5 stars with written comment = went above and beyond, see comment explaining why
4 stars = got job done with minor niggle
3 stars = got job done sloppily
2 stars = barely got job done after multiple issues and bad attitude
1 star = completely failed at the very essence of the task at hand, offered no apology for it, probably should be fired if happening regularly


Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #220 on: September 11, 2022, 06:23:39 PM »
Maybe you can put a screw in with a hammer.  A screwdriver still works better.

Ah. Okay, so you're sticking with the "my way is better" stance.

I'll stick with my thinking that if the data produces reliable, meaningful, actionable interpretation, then it's a good tool.

We're both entitled to our perceptions.

No I'm trying to explain our point of view.

First people seem to be using it wrong.   As you point out that's  what people do and they aren't going to change.

Then we think "there must be a better design... "

 This is a bit of a silly example - quality surveys - especially because businesses get good value out of the existing design.

But that's how a lot of "engineering types" will think.   Thousands of tiny innovations gave us smart phones and antilock brakes and so on.  So we often find ourselves looking for improvements...

I get your point of view, I already explained that the way people use these ratings isn't how I would use them.

The difference between us is that I don't assume that the way I intuitively respond to ratings is superior to the way others do.

I've spent several weeks reading about various ratings systems and how to refine them, I literally just finished a course in psychological research methods where I wrote a very long paper about a subject that depended heavily on response scales.

As someone above said, a lot of surveys are poorly designed, and I already posted that there is a science to making good surveys.

Where I disagree with you is that the ratings surveys that I have to use in my industry have actually turned out to be an excellent, reliable tool. The way people use them has made them extremely useful in the very specific way that I need them to be.

Could the system be improved? Oh sure, but I don't necessarily agree that designing it to get people to rate differently would actually be superior.

When a human behaviour tool works well, is reliable, and consistently produces valuable, actionable data, there's no need to fundamentally change the way the public interacts with it.

That said, there is a difference between how I utilize data from ratings vs how the public interprets what ratings mean. I am mostly speaking to how useful data has been for developing best practices. Online ratings and how they impact public perception are another matter that I haven't really gotten into.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 06:28:21 PM by Malcat »

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #221 on: September 11, 2022, 06:34:41 PM »
The difference between us is that I don't assume that the way I intuitively respond to ratings is superior to the way others do.

But there is an objectively superior way to rate things on a 10 point scale.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #222 on: September 11, 2022, 07:02:11 PM »
The difference between us is that I don't assume that the way I intuitively respond to ratings is superior to the way others do.

But there is an objectively superior way to rate things on a 10 point scale.

According to you.

For my needs, what matters is the utility and reliability of the data that the ratings produce.

What you seem to think is that the way a scale should work to you intuitively is fundamentally superior. But what makes your preferred way objectively superior other than the fact that it makes more sense to *you*??

If I need a measurement to tell me something, and it tells me that thing very well, then what's wrong with it?

seattlecyclone

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #223 on: September 11, 2022, 07:43:45 PM »
I always interpreted the "how likely to recommend" not as, "scream unsolicited from the rooftops," but more "if someone you know is looking for a [type of business], how likely are you to say, 'Oh, you should definitely to to Doe's on Main Street for your type-of-business needs."  And how vehemently I'd recommend. 

If that's the data they wanted to collect they should have asked for it. P(seattlecyclone utters a recommendation for X) is a much different quantity than P(seattlecyclone utters a recommendation for X | seattlecyclone is asked his opinion about X or a competing product).

Specifics matter. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

jinga nation

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #224 on: September 12, 2022, 07:12:47 AM »
What's the foam rating on this thread?
I mean, what shade of orange? 1 being lightest (almost white), 11 being darkest (almost black).
Or brown foamy foam?

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #225 on: September 12, 2022, 08:15:32 AM »
The difference between us is that I don't assume that the way I intuitively respond to ratings is superior to the way others do.

But there is an objectively superior way to rate things on a 10 point scale.

According to you.

For my needs, what matters is the utility and reliability of the data that the ratings produce.

What you seem to think is that the way a scale should work to you intuitively is fundamentally superior. But what makes your preferred way objectively superior other than the fact that it makes more sense to *you*??

If I need a measurement to tell me something, and it tells me that thing very well, then what's wrong with it?

I think that I'm not being clear.  Both methods of using the scale make sense to me.  Superiority of using 3 as a mid point out of five possible answers has nothing to do with intuition.  (I think that a pretty good argument could be make based on the evidence that the more intuitive method seems to be the inferior method.)   It's superior because it offers more and therefore better information.  Collection from this scale:


10 - Average or good or exceptional
9 - Maybe shit or good
8 - Maybe shit or good
7 - Shit
6 - Shit
5 - Shit
4 - Shit
3 - Shit
2 - Shit
1 - Shit


offers far less information (due to duplication of responses for most of the scale) than approaching the scale like this:


10 - Perfect, nothing could be improved
9 - Exceptional
8 - Far better than average
7 - Better than average
6 - Slightly better than average
5 - Average
4 - Slightly below average
3 - Below average
2 - Far below average
1 - Shit


So the former is inferior in data resolution to the latter.  It becomes a three or four point scale jammed into the trappings of 10 points rather than giving the information of a 10 point scale.  So yes, objectively inferior from a collection of data perspective.

If you only need to utility of a three point scale, why ask for people to fill out a 10 point one?

innkeeper77

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #226 on: September 12, 2022, 08:17:02 AM »
Could companies just cool it with the surveys? A survey is supposed to be from a representative sample of the population, not ever single gosh darn person that interacts with a company.

I know it messes up with the ratings, but every time my bank asks me for my opinion on their app I give it terrible scores and write a comment about how surveying me every six weeks detracts from the user experience and makes me less likely to recommend or even keep using their service.

If I ever fill out a survey on an individual employee, I will give them perfect ratings except in extreme cases of course.

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #227 on: September 12, 2022, 09:05:43 AM »
What's the foam rating on this thread?
I mean, what shade of orange? 1 being lightest (almost white), 11 being darkest (almost black).
Or brown foamy foam?

Outside of business hours: 6
Within business hours: 6

jinga nation

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #228 on: September 12, 2022, 10:19:59 AM »
What's the foam rating on this thread?
I mean, what shade of orange? 1 being lightest (almost white), 11 being darkest (almost black).
Or brown foamy foam?

Outside of business hours: 6
Within business hours: 6

Good enough to "quiet quit" or get FIREd?
A win either way if one haz FU monies.

jinga nation

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #229 on: September 12, 2022, 10:22:26 AM »
Could companies just cool it with the surveys? A survey is supposed to be from a representative sample of the population, not ever single gosh darn person that interacts with a company.

I know it messes up with the ratings, but every time my bank asks me for my opinion on their app I give it terrible scores and write a comment about how surveying me every six weeks detracts from the user experience and makes me less likely to recommend or even keep using their service.

If I ever fill out a survey on an individual employee, I will give them perfect ratings except in extreme cases of course.

Esp when the survey is presented ASAP when you log into the website/app?
WTF, how do I rate you when I ain't taken a a single user action yet? This you, BofA and Chase.
Mostly I cancel/ignore the survey, but sometimes give 'em ostrich eggs.

scottish

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #230 on: September 12, 2022, 01:35:20 PM »
Maybe you can put a screw in with a hammer.  A screwdriver still works better.

Ah. Okay, so you're sticking with the "my way is better" stance.

I'll stick with my thinking that if the data produces reliable, meaningful, actionable interpretation, then it's a good tool.

We're both entitled to our perceptions.

No I'm trying to explain our point of view.

First people seem to be using it wrong.   As you point out that's  what people do and they aren't going to change.

Then we think "there must be a better design... "

 This is a bit of a silly example - quality surveys - especially because businesses get good value out of the existing design.

But that's how a lot of "engineering types" will think.   Thousands of tiny innovations gave us smart phones and antilock brakes and so on.  So we often find ourselves looking for improvements...

I get your point of view, I already explained that the way people use these ratings isn't how I would use them.

The difference between us is that I don't assume that the way I intuitively respond to ratings is superior to the way others do.

I've spent several weeks reading about various ratings systems and how to refine them, I literally just finished a course in psychological research methods where I wrote a very long paper about a subject that depended heavily on response scales.

As someone above said, a lot of surveys are poorly designed, and I already posted that there is a science to making good surveys.

Where I disagree with you is that the ratings surveys that I have to use in my industry have actually turned out to be an excellent, reliable tool. The way people use them has made them extremely useful in the very specific way that I need them to be.

Could the system be improved? Oh sure, but I don't necessarily agree that designing it to get people to rate differently would actually be superior.

When a human behaviour tool works well, is reliable, and consistently produces valuable, actionable data, there's no need to fundamentally change the way the public interacts with it.

That said, there is a difference between how I utilize data from ratings vs how the public interprets what ratings mean. I am mostly speaking to how useful data has been for developing best practices. Online ratings and how they impact public perception are another matter that I haven't really gotten into.

Right, well to finally get to the point, I was wondering what you found amusing about it.     It occurs to me that the very first step in the innovation process is often:

Deny there's a problem and blame the user.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #231 on: September 12, 2022, 02:20:47 PM »
The difference between us is that I don't assume that the way I intuitively respond to ratings is superior to the way others do.

But there is an objectively superior way to rate things on a 10 point scale.

According to you.

For my needs, what matters is the utility and reliability of the data that the ratings produce.

What you seem to think is that the way a scale should work to you intuitively is fundamentally superior. But what makes your preferred way objectively superior other than the fact that it makes more sense to *you*??

If I need a measurement to tell me something, and it tells me that thing very well, then what's wrong with it?

I think that I'm not being clear.  Both methods of using the scale make sense to me.  Superiority of using 3 as a mid point out of five possible answers has nothing to do with intuition.  (I think that a pretty good argument could be make based on the evidence that the more intuitive method seems to be the inferior method.)   It's superior because it offers more and therefore better information.  Collection from this scale:


10 - Average or good or exceptional
9 - Maybe shit or good
8 - Maybe shit or good
7 - Shit
6 - Shit
5 - Shit
4 - Shit
3 - Shit
2 - Shit
1 - Shit


offers far less information (due to duplication of responses for most of the scale) than approaching the scale like this:


10 - Perfect, nothing could be improved
9 - Exceptional
8 - Far better than average
7 - Better than average
6 - Slightly better than average
5 - Average
4 - Slightly below average
3 - Below average
2 - Far below average
1 - Shit


So the former is inferior in data resolution to the latter.  It becomes a three or four point scale jammed into the trappings of 10 points rather than giving the information of a 10 point scale.  So yes, objectively inferior from a collection of data perspective.

If you only need to utility of a three point scale, why ask for people to fill out a 10 point one?

Not true at all. It's more like

5/5 in all categories: they like me and my staff enough that even if/when we fuck up, they will not likely leave the practice and are likely to be a good source of referrals if we keep up the good work

4/5 on one category: they have really liked their experience up to this point, but something substantially bad happened, and I should try and figure out what it is, because it's likely to affect their enthusiasm to refer other patients, and is a risk for them leaving the practice if it happens again, this is a warning shot

4/5 on all categories: they see general room for improvement, not likely to leave, not likely to refer either

3/5 in one category: they are likely to leave as a result of a specific factor, opportunity to make them feel valued by addressing their specific issue

3/5 in all/most categories: likely to leave, but there's opportunity to retain them, they want to be impressed, whether it's worth the effort depends on how much of a PITA they and their family are. Are we happy to lose them or want to retain them?

2/5 in one category: I have never seen this, so couldn't tell you what it means

2/5 in all/most categories: they don't like us, they think we are awful, but they feel bad giving us a 1 star review, they won't come back, but we can likely improve on best practices by learning from our experience with them because they don't want to hate us, we earned it

1/5 in one category: this is almost always in the staff category, this almost exclusively means they've had conflict about their bill with the admin staff. They are likely to leave if they ever have to deal with that staff member again

1/5 in all categories: they hate ME specifically, and they hid their anger in the appointment, this exclusively comes from patients who will never complain in person. Beware the patient who doesn't complain about anything, my 1/5s taught me that.

So it's not that one score is good and all of the others are shit. Each rating pattern has it's own personality and suggests an actionable strategy and risk profile moving forward. My 1/5 in all categories taught me A LOT about patient management because they came out of seemingly nowhere. Absolutely no one who has complained to my face has ever left a 1/5 review for me, ever, because they were given an avenue to feel heard.

That means a practice that is getting a number of 1/5s needs to be trained how to encourage patients to complain. A practice with 2-3/5s needs to overall improve their core standards of care. A practice with repeated 1/5 in only one category needs to focus on training their admin staff. A practice that gets a lot of 4/5 needs to step up their customer service.

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #232 on: September 12, 2022, 02:30:47 PM »
The difference between us is that I don't assume that the way I intuitively respond to ratings is superior to the way others do.

But there is an objectively superior way to rate things on a 10 point scale.

According to you.

For my needs, what matters is the utility and reliability of the data that the ratings produce.

What you seem to think is that the way a scale should work to you intuitively is fundamentally superior. But what makes your preferred way objectively superior other than the fact that it makes more sense to *you*??

If I need a measurement to tell me something, and it tells me that thing very well, then what's wrong with it?

I think that I'm not being clear.  Both methods of using the scale make sense to me.  Superiority of using 3 as a mid point out of five possible answers has nothing to do with intuition.  (I think that a pretty good argument could be make based on the evidence that the more intuitive method seems to be the inferior method.)   It's superior because it offers more and therefore better information.  Collection from this scale:


10 - Average or good or exceptional
9 - Maybe shit or good
8 - Maybe shit or good
7 - Shit
6 - Shit
5 - Shit
4 - Shit
3 - Shit
2 - Shit
1 - Shit


offers far less information (due to duplication of responses for most of the scale) than approaching the scale like this:


10 - Perfect, nothing could be improved
9 - Exceptional
8 - Far better than average
7 - Better than average
6 - Slightly better than average
5 - Average
4 - Slightly below average
3 - Below average
2 - Far below average
1 - Shit


So the former is inferior in data resolution to the latter.  It becomes a three or four point scale jammed into the trappings of 10 points rather than giving the information of a 10 point scale.  So yes, objectively inferior from a collection of data perspective.

If you only need to utility of a three point scale, why ask for people to fill out a 10 point one?

Not true at all. It's more like

5/5 in all categories: they like me and my staff enough that even if/when we fuck up, they will not likely leave the practice and are likely to be a good source of referrals if we keep up the good work

4/5 on one category: they have really liked their experience up to this point, but something substantially bad happened, and I should try and figure out what it is, because it's likely to affect their enthusiasm to refer other patients, and is a risk for them leaving the practice if it happens again, this is a warning shot

4/5 on all categories: they see general room for improvement, not likely to leave, not likely to refer either

3/5 in one category: they are likely to leave as a result of a specific factor, opportunity to make them feel valued by addressing their specific issue

3/5 in all/most categories: likely to leave, but there's opportunity to retain them, they want to be impressed, whether it's worth the effort depends on how much of a PITA they and their family are. Are we happy to lose them or want to retain them?

2/5 in one category: I have never seen this, so couldn't tell you what it means

2/5 in all/most categories: they don't like us, they think we are awful, but they feel bad giving us a 1 star review, they won't come back, but we can likely improve on best practices by learning from our experience with them because they don't want to hate us, we earned it

1/5 in one category: this is almost always in the staff category, this almost exclusively means they've had conflict about their bill with the admin staff. They are likely to leave if they ever have to deal with that staff member again

1/5 in all categories: they hate ME specifically, and they hid their anger in the appointment, this exclusively comes from patients who will never complain in person. Beware the patient who doesn't complain about anything, my 1/5s taught me that.

So it's not that one score is good and all of the others are shit. Each rating pattern has it's own personality and suggests an actionable strategy and risk profile moving forward. My 1/5 in all categories taught me A LOT about patient management because they came out of seemingly nowhere. Absolutely no one who has complained to my face has ever left a 1/5 review for me, ever, because they were given an avenue to feel heard.

That means a practice that is getting a number of 1/5s needs to be trained how to encourage patients to complain. A practice with 2-3/5s needs to overall improve their core standards of care. A practice with repeated 1/5 in only one category needs to focus on training their admin staff. A practice that gets a lot of 4/5 needs to step up their customer service.

Ah . . . so in this example the top end of the scale that is lost doesn't matter because the goal is to optimize for minimum customer loss/staff effort - and it's probably achieving better granularity because of the loss of the extraneous higher levels.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #233 on: September 12, 2022, 03:00:53 PM »
Ah . . . so in this example the top end of the scale that is lost doesn't matter because the goal is to optimize for minimum customer loss/staff effort - and it's probably achieving better granularity because of the loss of the extraneous higher levels.

EXACTLY!

We don't need any further top end data from the ratings. The clients who are over the fucking moon in love with us make that very clear with their effusive affection, hugs, tears, and lavish gifts. There is no actionable or meaningful data between "I'm satisfied and likely to refer people" and "I would donate my kidney to Dr. Malcat if she asked." Each of those populations are already affecting our bottom line the same way.

I *like* the upper end happy patients, but I don't need their data to be differentiated in order to establish best practices. Their feedback is self-evident.

Likewise, I also don't need feedback from patients who are angry with me and willing to express it, they just yell a lot and I handle whatever it is that they are yelling about. They usually don't leave ratings at all because they are given a chance to feel heard and understood. Their data is equally self-evident and holds no value in terms of ratings feedback.

I don't need to know that John Doe who called me a "bitchy cunt" doesn't like or trust me. I got that message and know exactly how to respond.

The data I get are reliable, meaningful, and actionable. That means, they are excellent quality data for my purposes, especially when I'm doing consulting for another practice where my personal reputation isn't impacted, I'm only using the data for systems and operations development.

Again, this is one specific example, but I feel like no one was getting what I meant when I said that the data are reliable, accurate, and actionable, and just how incredibly valuable that is.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #234 on: September 12, 2022, 03:03:10 PM »
Right, well to finally get to the point, I was wondering what you found amusing about it.     It occurs to me that the very first step in the innovation process is often:

Deny there's a problem and blame the user.

See my responses to GuitarStv and perhaps you will better understand my perspective and how I'm not at all blaming the user and how I see the tool as very useful, as it is. How if there was a way to force people to rate in the "superior" way that is being proposed in this thread, that it would be likely to produce less useful data for my purposes.

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #235 on: September 12, 2022, 03:03:57 PM »
Ah . . . so in this example the top end of the scale that is lost doesn't matter because the goal is to optimize for minimum customer loss/staff effort - and it's probably achieving better granularity because of the loss of the extraneous higher levels.

EXACTLY!

We don't need any further top end data from the ratings. The clients who are over the fucking moon in love with us make that very clear with their effusive affection, hugs, tears, and lavish gifts. There is no actionable or meaningful data between "I'm satisfied and likely to refer people" and "I would donate my kidney to Dr. Malcat if she asked." Each of those populations are already affecting our bottom line the same way.

I *like* the upper end happy patients, but I don't need their data to be differentiated in order to establish best practices. Their feedback is self-evident.

Likewise, I also don't need feedback from patients who are angry with me and willing to express it, they just yell a lot and I handle whatever it is that they are yelling about. They usually don't leave ratings at all because they are given a chance to feel heard and understood. Their data is equally self-evident and holds no value in terms of ratings feedback.

I don't need to know that John Doe who called me a "bitchy cunt" doesn't like or trust me. I got that message and know exactly how to respond.

The data I get are reliable, meaningful, and actionable. That means, they are excellent quality data for my purposes, especially when I'm doing consulting for another practice where my personal reputation isn't impacted, I'm only using the data for systems and operations development.

Again, this is one specific example, but I feel like no one was getting what I meant when I said that the data are reliable, accurate, and actionable, and just how incredibly valuable that is.

Yep.  Makes sense to me in this case.

stoaX

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #236 on: September 12, 2022, 06:27:46 PM »

TL/DR:  Don’t be an adjunct professor.

In a profession that is supposed to work for love, not money, adjunct professors are further expected to be grateful for the exposure/ foot in the door.
The silver lining here is that the $ savings the universities have enjoyed has allowed them to keep tuition costs low and increase at or below the pace of inflation...

Sorry for being a sarcastic sob..,.

LennStar

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #237 on: September 13, 2022, 02:58:41 AM »
Could companies just cool it with the surveys? A survey is supposed to be from a representative sample of the population, not ever single gosh darn person that interacts with a company.

I know it messes up with the ratings, but every time my bank asks me for my opinion on their app I give it terrible scores and write a comment about how surveying me every six weeks detracts from the user experience and makes me less likely to recommend or even keep using their service.

If I ever fill out a survey on an individual employee, I will give them perfect ratings except in extreme cases of course.
Oh yes, the nagging, I so hate that.

Worst design question is "Can you imagine..."
Yeah. I can. I have quite a bit of fantasy. I can imagine kissing the ass of Donald Trump, but I'd rather not imagining that and won't ever be doing that. But I can imagine it.

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #238 on: September 13, 2022, 04:37:37 AM »
I've never understood why some people would be willing to put in more than their 8-hours, for no additional compensation. They call it "quiet quitting" -- I call it "work life balance" or only working the hours you're contracted to work.

Yeah, I recall in 97, about the time MMM and I were starting work at the same high tech company, we put in a *lot* of extra hours, unpaid.

On the one hand, our employers insisted that since they were paying such good money (were they, though?  It was just $20/hr in 1997, about $32 now) so we felt we had to.  MMM had this idea of a "finite number of hours until his next career stage" but eventually we all just felt ripped off and used.  So we stopped with the unpaid overtime.

By the time I got my next job, 2007, I made it clear that I wouldn't do that anymore one Friday afternoon.
"Can you come in on the weekend and run these tests so we can ship on Monday?"
"Sure, that will take all of Saturday and Sunday, so I'll take Monday and Tuesday off to compensate."
"Uh, what?"
"2 days for 2 days, right?"
"Well, .... I need to clear that with the VP."
[shrug] "Well, he's not in this room, so I guess you'd better go find him."
I was never asked to work unpaid overtime again.  Every overtime hour was compensated in one way or another.

I don't want to discourage people from going the extra mile, doing their job to the best of their ability so they can accumulate respect, get a raise and move forward with their careers.  But I also don't want anyone to do any of that in a way that isn't appreciated.  And especially, you don't give away months of your youthful evenings to a company that just imagines itself entitled to your free time without compensation.

One of my favourite fellow employees, a man who recently passed away, was adamant about this.  When the corp offered a nebulous share of a "two million dollar bonus" to anyone who worked overtime for a two month period, this guy demanded, in writing, what his share of the bonus would be, based on time-and-a-half for his hours. They didn't like that, but they signed it.  So while he got thousands of dollars for his time, other people received the equivalent of $1/hr-$2/hr.  He was a kind of curmudgeonly mentor/hero to some of us.  When the company offered "flex hours", he worked 6am-2pm.  They told him he needed to be at work during "the core hours", which raised his eyebrows.
"I thought we had flex time?"
"We do, but you also need to be here for the core hours."
"What are the 'core hours'?"
"9am to 5pm."
"What?  So my unpaid overtime is flexible?  Gee, thanks.  The answer is 'no'."

Like I said, curmudgeonly hero.

Toque.

Kris

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #239 on: September 13, 2022, 05:58:01 AM »

TL/DR:  Don’t be an adjunct professor.

In a profession that is supposed to work for love, not money, adjunct professors are further expected to be grateful for the exposure/ foot in the door.
The silver lining here is that the $ savings the universities have enjoyed has allowed them to keep tuition costs low and increase at or below the pace of inflation...

Sorry for being a sarcastic sob..,.

At least you recognize that the insane cost of university education in the US is not due to instructor salaries.

ChpBstrd

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #240 on: September 13, 2022, 08:50:31 AM »
I don't want to discourage people from going the extra mile, doing their job to the best of their ability so they can accumulate respect, get a raise and move forward with their careers.  But I also don't want anyone to do any of that in a way that isn't appreciated.

This is where the quiet quitting trend intersects with the observation that most people have to change employers to get any significant raise.

If your employer is never giving you a major promotion/raise, then all that "extra mile" effort is wasted. I mean, maybe you have more accomplishments to brag about in your job interviews, but you should also be able to amass some accomplishment stories after a few months doing a 40h week. The person interviewing you cannot verify your brags about working late nights and weekends, or taking calls 24/7 so you get very little credit for any of that.

If getting a raise/promo is the objective, the combination of quiet quitting and plowing the rest of one's time into applying for jobs, getting credentials, and networking might be the optimal solution. 

clarkfan1979

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #241 on: September 13, 2022, 10:27:29 AM »

TL/DR:  Don’t be an adjunct professor.

In a profession that is supposed to work for love, not money, adjunct professors are further expected to be grateful for the exposure/ foot in the door.
The silver lining here is that the $ savings the universities have enjoyed has allowed them to keep tuition costs low and increase at or below the pace of inflation...

Sorry for being a sarcastic sob..,.

At least you recognize that the insane cost of university education in the US is not due to instructor salaries.

Correct. The typical college instructor is likely to be adjunct and they make around $2500/course. Five courses is considered to be full-time at a community college (100% teaching), so they are making 25K/year, usually with no benefits.

Some professors at a Ph.D. program can make 250K/year and teach zero courses/year. They have grant money (federal, state or private) and pay an army of post-docs, grad students and under grads to run the lab. Everyone gets paid out of the grant, not the University budget. 

ATtiny85

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #242 on: September 13, 2022, 10:34:51 AM »
I don't want to discourage people from going the extra mile, doing their job to the best of their ability so they can accumulate respect, get a raise and move forward with their careers.  But I also don't want anyone to do any of that in a way that isn't appreciated.

This is where the quiet quitting trend intersects with the observation that most people have to change employers to get any significant raise.

If your employer is never giving you a major promotion/raise, then all that "extra mile" effort is wasted. I mean, maybe you have more accomplishments to brag about in your job interviews, but you should also be able to amass some accomplishment stories after a few months doing a 40h week. The person interviewing you cannot verify your brags about working late nights and weekends, or taking calls 24/7 so you get very little credit for any of that.

If getting a raise/promo is the objective, the combination of quiet quitting and plowing the rest of one's time into applying for jobs, getting credentials, and networking might be the optimal solution.

Great post. From my experience at multiple megacorps, the folks who are most likely to get the in-house promotions tend to already be somewhat pre-destined. In fact, in my current division, it is even worse from my view, where the folks headed up do so stomping on the backs of others. Which really meshes with your post.

It is also my current company's policy to provide no recommendations other than verification of employment dates. Take that for what it's worth...

FrugalToque

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #243 on: September 14, 2022, 05:22:45 AM »
I don't want to discourage people from going the extra mile, doing their job to the best of their ability so they can accumulate respect, get a raise and move forward with their careers.  But I also don't want anyone to do any of that in a way that isn't appreciated.

This is where the quiet quitting trend intersects with the observation that most people have to change employers to get any significant raise.

I wonder about this.  Is the outcome "changing employers gets the best raise" due to the fact that most people don't have the confrontation and negotiation skills to ask their current employer for a raise?

I haven't asked for raises very often in my career.  Being somewhat introverted, it just doesn't come naturally.  But the times that I can remember doing so, I got the money.

Instance #1.
I am a "junior" designer/engineer ("D/E 1").
I have 2.5 yrs experience but my previous manager was a douche and didn't give the standard 2 year promotion to intermediate ("D/E 2").

"Hey Dave, I wanted to talk to you about my promotion to D/E 2"
"Hm, we usually discuss that in May with the performance reviews"
"Oh" <pause> "That'll be too late."

What I had meant by this was "that's six months from now, which means my career will be a whole year behind. Oh, no!"
What he heard was "Several of my coworkers have left for higher paying jobs in the states, so I guess I'll be going too."

The next day I had my promotion and commensurate raise, just over 10% IIRC, with an apology because they thought I was only at 1.5 yrs experience instead of 2.5

But that's not the sort of aggressive insistence I would normally engage in, not naturally.  I think if most people knew how to constructively engage with management, keep their eye on their value (perhaps by actually applying for work elsewhere just to check out salary offers) and ask for their raises, we wouldn't see this "you need to change jobs to get raises", but I don't have any hard data on that, just anecdotes.

Toque.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 05:30:45 AM by FrugalToque »

neo von retorch

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #244 on: September 14, 2022, 06:56:27 AM »
I wonder about this.  Is the outcome "changing employers gets the best raise" due to the fact that most people don't have the confrontation and negotiation skills to ask their current employer for a raise?

As someone who has had over a dozen different employers, here's my alternate take on this.

I've asked for raises, knowing I was producing much more than co-workers who made much more than me. They assumed I would not do anything but suck it up and get paid what they gave me. I interviewed elsewhere and got offered much more money. If I came back to them - at best they offered the same amount. At worst they said "bye!" (One place offered me less and then a day later whipped out a non-compete and tried to threaten me with it, but I ignored it. They did later attempt to sue me, unsuccessfully...) But at that point, they know I've got one foot out the door - do I really want to stay there knowing it took an actual job offer elsewhere (which is not trivial to obtain) before I went through on my intentions to leave the company if I didn't get the raise I felt I deserved?

In general, employers believe things based on what most employees will do, and convincing them otherwise is not trivial. Generally it takes an offer in hand for them to get serious, and by then, you've already changed the nature of your relationship. At that point, I've always found it worthwhile to just make the change (with a disclaimer that, as a technical worker, I enjoy the change, the new skills I'll learn, the pay raise without being promoted into management...)

Dave1442397

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #245 on: September 14, 2022, 07:43:54 AM »
I wonder about this.  Is the outcome "changing employers gets the best raise" due to the fact that most people don't have the confrontation and negotiation skills to ask their current employer for a raise?

As someone who has had over a dozen different employers, here's my alternate take on this.

I've asked for raises, knowing I was producing much more than co-workers who made much more than me. They assumed I would not do anything but suck it up and get paid what they gave me. I interviewed elsewhere and got offered much more money. If I came back to them - at best they offered the same amount. At worst they said "bye!" (One place offered me less and then a day later whipped out a non-compete and tried to threaten me with it, but I ignored it. They did later attempt to sue me, unsuccessfully...) But at that point, they know I've got one foot out the door - do I really want to stay there knowing it took an actual job offer elsewhere (which is not trivial to obtain) before I went through on my intentions to leave the company if I didn't get the raise I felt I deserved?

In general, employers believe things based on what most employees will do, and convincing them otherwise is not trivial. Generally it takes an offer in hand for them to get serious, and by then, you've already changed the nature of your relationship. At that point, I've always found it worthwhile to just make the change (with a disclaimer that, as a technical worker, I enjoy the change, the new skills I'll learn, the pay raise without being promoted into management...)

I agree. HR's job is to pay you just enough to keep you there, not what you think you deserve.

Many years ago at my first job, we had a cohort of thirty programmers that were hired at the same time and went through training together. We all started at the same salary, and it was expected that we would be promoted at the one-year, two-year, and four-year points to Programmer, Sr. Programmer, and Programmer Analyst.

I was just coming up to the four-year mark, and had worked between 100 and 120 hours a week for the past four months to code a project from scratch, by myself. It was something that my manager had neglected until the last minute, and it would have cost the company millions to reschedule its deployment. I got it done, and it went live with no glitches - not a single problem.

When it came to review time, my manager apparently did not support my (almost automatic) promotion. I was told I didn't have enough time at my current position. I pointed out that I had an extra six months worth of overtime in the past few months alone.

An ex-coworker called me that week about another job, which came with a 34% raise from my current salary. A couple of days after I gave notice, the promotion and a 10% raise came through. Too little, too late. It was a shame, because I loved the work I did there. It was a fast-paced environment, and I learned a lot.

jinga nation

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #246 on: September 14, 2022, 07:49:10 AM »
I wonder about this.  Is the outcome "changing employers gets the best raise" due to the fact that most people don't have the confrontation and negotiation skills to ask their current employer for a raise?

As someone who has had over a dozen different employers, here's my alternate take on this.

I've asked for raises, knowing I was producing much more than co-workers who made much more than me. They assumed I would not do anything but suck it up and get paid what they gave me. I interviewed elsewhere and got offered much more money. If I came back to them - at best they offered the same amount. At worst they said "bye!" (One place offered me less and then a day later whipped out a non-compete and tried to threaten me with it, but I ignored it. They did later attempt to sue me, unsuccessfully...) But at that point, they know I've got one foot out the door - do I really want to stay there knowing it took an actual job offer elsewhere (which is not trivial to obtain) before I went through on my intentions to leave the company if I didn't get the raise I felt I deserved?

In general, employers believe things based on what most employees will do, and convincing them otherwise is not trivial. Generally it takes an offer in hand for them to get serious, and by then, you've already changed the nature of your relationship. At that point, I've always found it worthwhile to just make the change (with a disclaimer that, as a technical worker, I enjoy the change, the new skills I'll learn, the pay raise without being promoted into management...)

I agree. HR's job is to pay you just enough to keep you there, not what you think you deserve.

Many years ago at my first job, we had a cohort of thirty programmers that were hired at the same time and went through training together. We all started at the same salary, and it was expected that we would be promoted at the one-year, two-year, and four-year points to Programmer, Sr. Programmer, and Programmer Analyst.

I was just coming up to the four-year mark, and had worked between 100 and 120 hours a week for the past four months to code a project from scratch, by myself. It was something that my manager had neglected until the last minute, and it would have cost the company millions to reschedule its deployment. I got it done, and it went live with no glitches - not a single problem.

When it came to review time, my manager apparently did not support my (almost automatic) promotion. I was told I didn't have enough time at my current position. I pointed out that I had an extra six months worth of overtime in the past few months alone.

An ex-coworker called me that week about another job, which came with a 34% raise from my current salary. A couple of days after I gave notice, the promotion and a 10% raise came through. Too little, too late. It was a shame, because I loved the work I did there. It was a fast-paced environment, and I learned a lot.

Are you sure you ain't me in 2009? Same situation.

That behavior from the manager and the low raise gave the message: You didn't value my efforts, and when given notice to leave, you showed you value me so little. Bless your heart!

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #247 on: September 14, 2022, 08:16:15 AM »
I wonder about this.  Is the outcome "changing employers gets the best raise" due to the fact that most people don't have the confrontation and negotiation skills to ask their current employer for a raise?

As someone who has had over a dozen different employers, here's my alternate take on this.

I've asked for raises, knowing I was producing much more than co-workers who made much more than me. They assumed I would not do anything but suck it up and get paid what they gave me. I interviewed elsewhere and got offered much more money. If I came back to them - at best they offered the same amount. At worst they said "bye!" (One place offered me less and then a day later whipped out a non-compete and tried to threaten me with it, but I ignored it. They did later attempt to sue me, unsuccessfully...) But at that point, they know I've got one foot out the door - do I really want to stay there knowing it took an actual job offer elsewhere (which is not trivial to obtain) before I went through on my intentions to leave the company if I didn't get the raise I felt I deserved?

In general, employers believe things based on what most employees will do, and convincing them otherwise is not trivial. Generally it takes an offer in hand for them to get serious, and by then, you've already changed the nature of your relationship. At that point, I've always found it worthwhile to just make the change (with a disclaimer that, as a technical worker, I enjoy the change, the new skills I'll learn, the pay raise without being promoted into management...)

I agree. HR's job is to pay you just enough to keep you there, not what you think you deserve.

Many years ago at my first job, we had a cohort of thirty programmers that were hired at the same time and went through training together. We all started at the same salary, and it was expected that we would be promoted at the one-year, two-year, and four-year points to Programmer, Sr. Programmer, and Programmer Analyst.

I was just coming up to the four-year mark, and had worked between 100 and 120 hours a week for the past four months to code a project from scratch, by myself. It was something that my manager had neglected until the last minute, and it would have cost the company millions to reschedule its deployment. I got it done, and it went live with no glitches - not a single problem.

When it came to review time, my manager apparently did not support my (almost automatic) promotion. I was told I didn't have enough time at my current position. I pointed out that I had an extra six months worth of overtime in the past few months alone.

An ex-coworker called me that week about another job, which came with a 34% raise from my current salary. A couple of days after I gave notice, the promotion and a 10% raise came through. Too little, too late. It was a shame, because I loved the work I did there. It was a fast-paced environment, and I learned a lot.

Are you sure you ain't me in 2009? Same situation.

That behavior from the manager and the low raise gave the message: You didn't value my efforts, and when given notice to leave, you showed you value me so little. Bless your heart!

This goes hand in hand with the steady evisceration of on-the-job training and professional middle management that has happened in corporations over the past few decades.

As boards took more control of companies and their management, the best way to control a company was to gut the middle management level and implement more top-down executive management structure.

Hence the cultural phenomenon of "middle manager" becoming a derogatory insult.

Middle management use to be where companies were largely run from, with middle managers carefully cultivating and training staff to be systematically promoted throughout the structure. Hence how back in the day the kid in the mail room could make it up to senior management.

My step dad did exactly this. Got his undergrad, started at mailroom level, and was basically shoved up the ladder to senior sales exec.

However, middle managers, being the guts of the business, acted as resistance to the will of boards, so they were systematically gutted out, and then a micromanagement top-down system was implemented.

Middle managers are now primarily only under pressure to produce numbers, and have had all autonomy and efficacy ripped away from them, and have no ability, will, or understanding of how to cultivate staff, only squeeze for numbers.

This is why voluntarily offering someone more money who isn't demanding it with threats just won't happen. It's also why the main staff source comes from outside the business, because there are no mechanisms for internal promotion.

It can happen, but it's not the way the system is designed. Companies now buy staff experience rather than train it themselves.

This is a relatively new way of doing business, it's very young and yet workers have been conditioned to believe that this is "just the way it is" as if corporations always behaved this way, as if it's a tested and proven model, which is kind of hilarious.

It's also why companies and managers still behave with the leftover sentiments of expecting company loyalty from staff, even though they've systematically gutted every factor that earned that loyalty and are now perplexed why the longer this model lasts, the less the staff are willing to buy into it.

The generation raised by the people who were part of the old system were conditioned by their upbringing to behave like the employees in the old system: respect your employer, be loyal, trust your management knows best, etc.

The next generation raised their kids with the knowledge that the company can and *will* fuck you up, down, and sideways at every chance they get. We were raised with stories of secretaries who worked for 40 years for a company being fired when they were diagnosed with cancer. I saw my mom's company try to get rid of her when she was diagnosed with MS.

That generation has now raised the new batch of incoming staff.

This very, very young megacorp management system is increasingly being challenged and tested, and it will be interesting to see what the next iteration is, because this one has depended for years on a cultural indoctrination of workers that is well past its best-before date.

I spend a lot of time listening to middle aged managers whine about young workers, and advising them on how to get them to perform. It's amazing when I reframe things for them and they are finally able to grasp that this new batch of staff have a totally different set of motivations than they did as new staff.

Well...some of them get it. Some of the just prefer to keep bashing their heads against the ever more sturdy wall of reality that they can't manage these young people the same way and just keep whining that they're selfish, lazy, and entitled and expect the situation to get better...through, idk, magical thinking and amping up the bullying that's making them underperform in the first place?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 08:19:58 AM by Malcat »

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #248 on: September 14, 2022, 09:12:51 AM »
Thanks @Malcat for that great post. It rings true of you ask me.

It also goes the same way: Youth can only look with a big ??? on their face if those managers complain about them being entitled. It's a business transaction, either you agree to the terms or not, but don't go around spouting nonsense!

This is similar to what I have seen here about the Friday school protests for climate.

"What? Those youngsters are skipping school? First they should earn some money and feed a family before they dare to want something from us!"

It's a totally different worldview, formed by the experience of a greatly different world.

ChpBstrd

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #249 on: September 14, 2022, 10:12:24 AM »
I don't want to discourage people from going the extra mile, doing their job to the best of their ability so they can accumulate respect, get a raise and move forward with their careers.  But I also don't want anyone to do any of that in a way that isn't appreciated.

This is where the quiet quitting trend intersects with the observation that most people have to change employers to get any significant raise.

I wonder about this.  Is the outcome "changing employers gets the best raise" due to the fact that most people don't have the confrontation and negotiation skills to ask their current employer for a raise?

I haven't asked for raises very often in my career.  Being somewhat introverted, it just doesn't come naturally.  But the times that I can remember doing so, I got the money.

Instance #1.
I am a "junior" designer/engineer ("D/E 1").
I have 2.5 yrs experience but my previous manager was a douche and didn't give the standard 2 year promotion to intermediate ("D/E 2").

"Hey Dave, I wanted to talk to you about my promotion to D/E 2"
"Hm, we usually discuss that in May with the performance reviews"
"Oh" <pause> "That'll be too late."

What I had meant by this was "that's six months from now, which means my career will be a whole year behind. Oh, no!"
What he heard was "Several of my coworkers have left for higher paying jobs in the states, so I guess I'll be going too."

The next day I had my promotion and commensurate raise, just over 10% IIRC, with an apology because they thought I was only at 1.5 yrs experience instead of 2.5

But that's not the sort of aggressive insistence I would normally engage in, not naturally.  I think if most people knew how to constructively engage with management, keep their eye on their value (perhaps by actually applying for work elsewhere just to check out salary offers) and ask for their raises, we wouldn't see this "you need to change jobs to get raises", but I don't have any hard data on that, just anecdotes.

Toque.
Yea, it takes a certain personality type to negotiate aggressively and cultivate side offers. That means people with those personality types / capabilities are the ones getting the raises and promotions, whether they stay or go. Skill, then, is less important than negotiating ability. The people who make it to management are less likely to be skilled than they are to be good negotiators / politicians. So what we're describing is an anti-meritocracy that selects for people who are not afraid of confrontation.

This goes hand in hand with the steady evisceration of on-the-job training and professional middle management that has happened in corporations over the past few decades.
This is a great macro-level observation that explains the lack of upward mobility within companies. As you say, everyone wants to buy skilled employees instead of making them in-house. In a "flat" organization, there is no way for a technician to be promoted to a middle management role.

I wonder, however, about another macro-level observation. If so many people are leaving their jobs after 2-4 years, then what percentage of the employer's employees are actually good at their jobs at any given time? If a company's workforce is xx% noobs, at what point is that a productivity problem that costs more than old-school tall org structures and career development investments would have cost?

Sure, most businesses use the same software, HR policies, communication norms, etc. as other businesses, but what makes a person good at their job is the stuff that takes years to learn: an awareness of the company's contracts and functions, their ability to tap a social network of coworkers with specific skills / permissions to resolve problems, knowledge of historical decisions or mistakes at the company and why they were made, industry trends, configuration details, how to submit accurate expense reports, business rules, who to talk to about what, yada yada.

If flat organizations consist of a bunch of noobs who have zero loyalty to their executive leaders and who will all be gone in 2 years, that sorta makes a joke out of the idea that talent is a commodity that can be bought in the marketplace.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 10:14:03 AM by ChpBstrd »

 

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