New Trend I am noticing that I do not understand.

[soccerluvof4]

We raised the kids in 1800 sq ft. When they left we downsized to 1400 with a one car garage. We have a decent size backyard. We still entertain but instead of 25 people we have 10 except in summer when we can be outside.  I love the smaller size. It’s one level so we can age in place. We moved into town convenient to everything with no HOA.  Between us we have 5 kids and have everyone over with no issues.  We also have a RV that we use more as a extra guest bedroom.  One couple at 70 with no kids moved from 1500 to 2700 sq ft which we thought was crazy. They thought we were crazy:))

Isn't everyone a little crazy to someone else! haha..

[Morning Glory]

Where does all of that laundry come from? I have two toddlers and do only 2 or 3 loads per week. I haven't used my dryer in five years. If I make up my mind to stay there a long time I might take the dryer out and install a large sink in it's place.

I have 2500 square feet and it feels too big, especially when I have to clean it. I like having a large kitchen and two bathrooms, but my bedrooms and closets are too big.

ETA I absolutely hate the open floor plans and finished basements common in newer homes.

I've seen it go both ways.  Finish raising the family and downsizing to something comfortable and more manageable for aging in place.  And then there is my friend that did something along the lines of up-sizing.  She didn't move to a bigger house (she already has the big house) but she did things like renovate to put in a second washer, second dryer, and third fridge when all of her kids left.  She's happy that now she can do laundry twice as fast.  Seems excessive to me.

That sounds brilliant to me. Another washer and dryer for $2,000 to get back 350 hours per
year sitting around waiting for laundry. It would pay for itself in a year. Damn. I am now thinking that is the way to go in our next laundry room!

The house I moved into two-and-a-half years ago had hookups for two washers and two dryers, so of course I HAD to use both hookups...and I must say that it is as awesome as it sounds. Craigslist has an endless supply of good washer and dryers so I probably spent less than $300 on the endevour, but I figure I'll recoup some of that cost when a washer or dryer breaks and I can lazily go about fixing or replacing it rather than being rushed to put in something that works.

So jealous-as I get ready to put my 3rd load of the day. Sigh. I think I will ask how much it would cost to have more hookups. I might be surprised. The 220V in the garage for the electric car was only $100. Used on Craigslist is how I roll for most hard household items. That or Costco.

[HBFIRE]

I don't think this is a "new" trend, its been going on for as long as I can remember even growing up in the 80's.  This trend peaked when I was in the mortgage lending industry ~ 2004-2006.  If anything, I think the trend is in decline as the millennial generation is shifting the size of average homes, but there will always be a small demographic that shifts towards the McMansions.

[Cassie]

When there were 5 of us at home I had about 9 loads of laundry a week.  That includes everyone using a fresh towel every day.  Plus the washers were smaller back then. 

[couponvan]

Where does all of that laundry come from? I have two toddlers and do only 2 or 3 loads per week. I haven't used my dryer in five years. If I make up my mind to stay there a long time I might take the dryer out and install a large sink in it's place.

I have 2500 square feet and it feels too big, especially when I have to clean it. I like having a large kitchen and two bathrooms, but my bedrooms and closets are too big.

ETA I absolutely hate the open floor plans and finished basements common in newer homes.

I've seen it go both ways.  Finish raising the family and downsizing to something comfortable and more manageable for aging in place.  And then there is my friend that did something along the lines of up-sizing.  She didn't move to a bigger house (she already has the big house) but she did things like renovate to put in a second washer, second dryer, and third fridge when all of her kids left.  She's happy that now she can do laundry twice as fast.  Seems excessive to me.

That sounds brilliant to me. Another washer and dryer for $2,000 to get back 350 hours per
year sitting around waiting for laundry. It would pay for itself in a year. Damn. I am now thinking that is the way to go in our next laundry room!

The house I moved into two-and-a-half years ago had hookups for two washers and two dryers, so of course I HAD to use both hookups...and I must say that it is as awesome as it sounds. Craigslist has an endless supply of good washer and dryers so I probably spent less than $300 on the endevour, but I figure I'll recoup some of that cost when a washer or dryer breaks and I can lazily go about fixing or replacing it rather than being rushed to put in something that works.

So jealous-as I get ready to put my 3rd load of the day. Sigh. I think I will ask how much it would cost to have more hookups. I might be surprised. The 220V in the garage for the electric car was only $100. Used on Craigslist is how I roll for most hard household items. That or Costco.

The laundry comes from a few fronts. I just had a double mastectomy for breast cancer and am allergic to many antibiotics (discovered during meningitis bout 13 years ago) and also to chlorhexidene. We are washing everything I use daily to reduce germs/infection risk. I have a son with asthma and other environmental allergies. His space needs to be cleaned more often or he gets sick. He’s 16, so mostly does it himself. I’m not actually going to add those second hookups, but it does sound convenient. :-) Especially when buried under laundry. I’m 4.5 weeks out from surgery and 1.5 weeks out from the double daily wash grind if all goes well for now.

[Cassie]

I totally forgot that you had to be so careful because of the surgery.  Getting a infection would be horrible. My youngest had asthma and we didn’t have carpet in his room which really helped. I washed the curtains regularly and all his bedding.  Removing the blinds also helped.

[Tuskalusa]

I’m seeing this house trend too. We have friends who just remodeled their house. They took it from 1800 SF to 7000 SF. Their oldest son just went to college and their other two kids will be heading to college over the next 4 years. I honestly don’t understand why someone would want that much space for what will ultimately be 2 people at home full time.

[ysette9]

I am seeing this in a different way in my neighborhood. We live in a HCOL area in a neighborhood that had been one of the last areas of relative affordability. It is a cute and eclectic place where every house is different and most were built post WWII, so lots of little 2/1 and 3/2. Because the land is so valuable people are buying, tearing down, and then building some 2000-3000 ft^2 monstrosity up to the edges of the lot line and then selling it for $1.5M more than the original little house that was there before. Financially I can’t blame them because they can turn a big profit, but I find it sad to see the character of the neighborhood changing in that manner.

[soccerluvof4]

I am seeing this in a different way in my neighborhood. We live in a HCOL area in a neighborhood that had been one of the last areas of relative affordability. It is a cute and eclectic place where every house is different and most were built post WWII, so lots of little 2/1 and 3/2. Because the land is so valuable people are buying, tearing down, and then building some 2000-3000 ft^2 monstrosity up to the edges of the lot line and then selling it for $1.5M more than the original little house that was there before. Financially I can’t blame them because they can turn a big profit, but I find it sad to see the character of the neighborhood changing in that manner.

My BIL lives in Chicago and the same thing is happening where he lives in a southwest suburb. Tearing down 2 smaller homes to build 1 bigger one and still has a post stamp size yard.

[Linea_Norway]

When there were 5 of us at home I had about 9 loads of laundry a week.  That includes everyone using a fresh towel every day.  Plus the washers were smaller back then.

@Cassie
I hope you will reconsider the use of so many towels. If you hang your towel to dry properly after each use, a towel can be used for several days until it starts to smell.

[ysette9]

We switch out our towels once a week. I see no reason to do any sooner provided you live in a place with good weather.

[SnackDog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44DCWslbsNM

[YttriumNitrate]

Where does all of that laundry come from? I have two toddlers and do only 2 or 3 loads per week. I haven't used my dryer in five years. If I make up my mind to stay there a long time I might take the dryer out and install a large sink in it's place.

There are four of us in the house and I'd say we probably do about four loads per week on average. While a single washer/dryer set is more than capable of handling that much laundry, having the second set is nice when we let things pile up and want to knock out two weeks worth of laundry on a Saturday morning.

[Cassie]

My kids are long grown and now live in a dry climate so only change them once a week.

[Pigeon]

I work full time and even when my kids were smaller, doing laundry was never a big deal that would require multiple washers/dryers.  It takes less than 5 minutes to throw the load in and do something else, ditto for the dryer.  It's not like I have to hover over the machine.  Folding it and putting it away is the more time consuming step.  Of all the household tasks that I have to do, the laundry is the least offensive.

[sol]

This thread is now about people buying extra washers and dryers?  Cool.  We should link it to the one about people who love $500 sheets, and the one about people who love $800 blenders.

Here'a a tip to the newbies:  maybe don't use the mustache forum to promote stupid spending?  Have you even READ the blog?  This is not the part of the internet where people will pat you on the back for bragging about how much money you've wasted on frivolous bullshit.  That's what facebook is for.

[ThatGuy]

I always wondered what Facebook was for.

[OtherJen]

I always wondered what Facebook was for.

I thought Facebook was for shilling your MLM nonsense to all of your old high school classmates. Right?

[YttriumNitrate]

Since this thread is now about buying extra washers and dryers, per Mr. Money Mustache's advice, the best way to go about this process is "by cutting your upgrades into smaller pieces." This particular project lends itself well to piecemeal completion with step 1 being the installation of the extra hookups, step 2 being purchasing of the extra washer, and step 3 being installation of the extra dryer. For the extra hookups, ideally at least some of the venting and water links should be done yourself to "[m]ake it more challenging, [so you] do things that require you to learn or accomplish something first" for the gas lines and venting it's probably best to "create or strengthen friendships" with someone who knows something about these things.

Since we want to "[d]elay everything and space it out as much as possible [because] the anticipation of a treat often provides at least as much joy as the consummation," the washer and dryer should be purchased from craigslist, but be sure to set your standards high with a low budget to ramp up the challenge. Craigslist alerts are great for this sort of thing.

[ThatGuy]

I always wondered what Facebook was for.

I thought Facebook was for shilling your MLM nonsense to all of your old high school classmates. Right?

I'm not sure, I don't have any friends. :)

[soccerluvof4]

Back on track , when I was at the Y today my friend put an offer in (1 child remaining) on a 5 bedroom 6 bath house on 3 Acres with a pool. Said all the models that were 800k were not built as nice and there getting this one for 800k but have some work to do since it was built in 2001. Price wise they got a good deal but I am skeptical why it didn't sell faster as I watch the market and it should be closer to 175$ a square foot on the low end. But in either to the real point - 3 people 6500 square feet? My guess since they asked me for a couple contractors for a cedar shake roof and whole house painting by the time they get done they will put another 200k into it.

[Cassie]

Did you ask them why they wanted such a big house?

[KBecks]

That is just a stunning amount of money, Soccerluv. It makes me feel a little less guilty for committing to a mid-range remodeling job on our bathroom that's under 10% of the home value and less than most professional design-build bathroom jobs.  Even in the space we have sometimes I can't find all my people!

[ysette9]

That is just a stunning amount of money, Soccerluv. It makes me feel a little less guilty for committing to a mid-range remodeling job on our bathroom that's under 10% of the home value and less than most professional design-build bathroom jobs.  Even in the space we have sometimes I can't find all my people!

Which goes to show how very local a concept like real estate cost is. $800k is affordable for me, though good never get something that size on that much land for anywhere near that money.

[KBecks]

Soccerluv and I live in the same state, but in different metro areas. Maybe I'll go fantasize on Zillow for a while now...

[dmc]

We bought a larger house in retirement.  It’s around 3500 ft with a large outdoor lanai and pool area.  But we moved to SW Florida and get quite a lot of company over the winter months.  I would prefer a somewhat smaller house, but this was a pretty average size home in the neighborhood we wanted to be in. And the wife does like to entertain a bit, we have groups of 10-15 over From time to time.

At least I don’t have 2 acres of lawn to care for anymore.  I have a lawn service mow what little lawn I have left that’s not paved for $100 a month.  I sold my lawn equipment.

[soccerluvof4]

@Cassie Its always the same answer at the root of it. Want space to entertain and places for when the kids come home to visit.

The one benefit for me is the more of these houses that go up or are around the better house my becomes desired. People want to live in this area and really don't move out and affordable housing like mine is hard to come by.

@ysette9 - 800$ for what there buying is very inexpensive here but the problem is they dont sell because there is just way to much inventory so they got a deal on paper but when they do the updates and go to sell... Well good luck.  Plus living here obviously depending on the size of the house you build , having to put a basement in can be anywhere from 25k to 2-300k and more depending if a walkout and finished.


@KBecks - Not sure where you live but I had a place up North that was 3xs what I have now and probably a third of the cost. The SE region of the state is just going bonkers. Talking to alot of realtors though it has slowed of late which I would expect because of the Holidays and winter anyhow. So spring will be interesting.

[Cassie]

DMC, we frequently entertain 10-15 people just fine in 1400 sq ft.  People also come and visit for a week with no issues.  I certainly don’t want to spend retirement cleaning and maintaining all that space.

[zolotiyeruki]

At my last job I had a coworker who bought a 3,500 sq ft house.  He was middle-aged and single.  Super nice guy and great to work with, but it mystifies me why he bought a house that big.

[patchyfacialhair]

We have 2700 sqft finished (2 adults, 1 kid), and I can't even fathom more space.

Even if we added another kid and an aging parent, we'd still have unused/seldom used finished space. Anything more than what we've got blows my mind.

[iris lily]

We recently bought a weekender house of 1400 sq ft on one acre. We are 64 years old. We debated about it quite a bit as being too much for weekends but fortunately it hasnt turned out that way, so far.

One set of childless friends said to us “whoah, your weekend house is as big as our condo! “

Another set of childless friends said to us”are you sure you can live in 1400 ft.? That’s not much. “

Haha so the perception of space needs  varies widely

[Cassie]

I have lived in 869 sq ft when it was just me. With DH we need 1400 plus a 1 car garage and a large shed for his junk.

[ThatGuy]

I would like a larger home for the extra bells and whistles.  I've always wanted a separate tub and shower and a walk in closet.  Sure I could possibly remodel my two bedroom house and turn it into a one bedroom house with those upgrades but it would kill the resale.   

[Malloy]

Buying a 6k square foot house for Thanksgiving and a Superbowl party deserves a face punch.  I feel like I'm constantly reading the other end of this story in CNN articles about couples in their late 50s who can't sell their houses and have no retirement savings.

"Designing our homes for the worst-case scenario—a hundred people are all at our house for a party and the party is also a tribunal where all of our guests publicly judge us—prioritizes guests who spend a very short amount of time in our houses over our own daily needs. As the UCLA study indicates, we vastly overestimate how much we will be entertaining, and this is especially true for houses in neighborhoods where a 30-minute drive is required of anyone who wants to visit in the first place. "

https://www.curbed.com/2018/7/11/17536876/great-room-house-size-design-square-footage

Most suburban McMansions are poorly designed, and this is the bulk of 3-8k house buying.  If you are buying a decrepit robber baron pile in Ohio with great bones, more power to you. A well-designed 3k ft house is big enough to entertain 100 people and host grandkids, but not if most of the space is given up to a useless foyer, an architect's fudge of a landing with no discernible function, a massive master bedroom with his and hers closets, and an echoing living room that feels unwelcoming and cold so that no one spends any time there.  Buy better houses, not bigger houses. 

[Cassie]

Our house had 4 bedrooms and one tiny one was attached to the master bedroom so we made that into a walk in closet. At the back of the house we had a decent size bedroom and dining room so stole some of the space for a master bathroom. We have a separate jaquazz tub that no one uses and a separate shower. My husband wanted the 1k/tub and has used it 3xs in 6 years. Ugh!

[zolotiyeruki]

Most suburban McMansions are poorly designed, and this is the bulk of 3-8k house buying.  If you are buying a decrepit robber baron pile in Ohio with great bones, more power to you. A well-designed 3k ft house is big enough to entertain 100 people and host grandkids, but not if most of the space is given up to a useless foyer, an architect's fudge of a landing with no discernible function, a massive master bedroom with his and hers closets, and an echoing living room that feels unwelcoming and cold so that no one spends any time there.  Buy better houses, not bigger houses.

Hey now, my house resembles that remark!  And you're absolutely right.  There are a number of 4 bedroom homes in our neighborhood that could easily be 6 if the master bedroom wasn't so comically huge and if there was a floor over the family room.  Split the 2nd upstairs bathroom (8'x13'!) into two, and you've now got a 6/3.5 with generous sized bathrooms.

[jpdx]

We need to change something about the culture that considers this kind of over-consumption to be acceptable. It's not. A 4,000+ square foot house is a tremendous waste of resources to build, maintain, and condition.

These homes are the residential equivalent of driving a Hummer. Only selfish assholes do it.

My family of three lives comfortably in 1650 sq ft plus an unfinished basement. We work from home. We entertain and host guests. We have more storage space than we could ever fill. Even this often feels like too much space to clean, maintain, and heat/cool. More space would actually lower our quality of life. Double this amount of space is unfathomable. Tripple? Quadruple?

[ysette9]

Agreed. We have 1100ft^2 because the single car garage of the original 2/1 was converted to an additional bed and bath. When guests are staying it is excellent to have that extra space. When we don’t have guests staying the door is literally closed most of the time and we live entirely in 2/1 and 900 ft^2 quite comfortably. We can do that because the space is laid out well and we don’t have too much extra crap (always a work in progress!).

Growing up in 2100ft^2 we infrequently used the dining room and family room and could have easily done with 500 fewer square feet with no loss in quality of life.

[jpdx]

In addition to changing the culture, we have to change policy. Perhaps property taxes should not just be based on property value, they should be based on square footage. This would discourage the construction of new McMansions and to help offset the negative externalities these hideous structures create.

[blackomen]

Even if I wanted a McMansion (and can afford one), I'll at least wait till the next housing crash and not during a housing boom to snatch one.

[DreamFIRE]

As a single person (no pets, either), I have about 2500 sq. ft., plus a two car attached garage, and a full basement.  I think I would be comfortable with as little as 1300 sq. ft. of finished living space, a two car garage (preferably attached), and at least a partial basement.  But when I look at possibly relocating to a home like that in my LCOL area, I'm not seeing much of a savings to me in home prices or property taxes for a nice smaller home in a decent neighborhood like the neighborhood I currently live in.  If the savings aren't significant by downsizing to a nice smaller home in a decent neighborhood, I would just as well have around 2000 sq. ft.   3000 sq. ft. is getting excessive, though.  And I don't want to live in a crappy house or bad neighborhood (crime, noise, etc) just to save a little money.

[soccerluvof4]

In addition to changing the culture, we have to change policy. Perhaps property taxes should not just be based on property value, they should be based on square footage. This would discourage the construction of new McMansions and to help offset the negative externalities these hideous structures create.

Thats how property taxes are figured where I live. They measure they outside dimensions of the house and your taxes are figured based on the square footage the come up with using that measurement. I am sure some outside differences too are considered like all brick our all siding or how much garage but otherwise its cut n dry.

[zolotiyeruki]

...But when I look at possibly relocating to a home like that in my LCOL area, I'm not seeing much of a savings to me in home prices or property taxes for a nice smaller home in a decent neighborhood like the neighborhood I currently live in.  If the savings aren't significant by downsizing to a nice smaller home in a decent neighborhood, I would just as well have around 2000 sq. ft.

That's a fair point--home value doesn't always scale strictly with square feet.   Two similar 4-bedroom houses of 2,800 and 3,500 sq ft are not going to be 25% different in price, assuming all else is equal.  Of course, bigger houses often are built with nicer finishes, which can drive up the cost dramatically.

[YttriumNitrate]

In addition to changing the culture, we have to change policy. Perhaps property taxes should not just be based on property value, they should be based on square footage. This would discourage the construction of new McMansions and to help offset the negative externalities these hideous structures create.

Thats how property taxes are figured where I live. They measure they outside dimensions of the house and your taxes are figured based on the square footage the come up with using that measurement. I am sure some outside differences too are considered like all brick our all siding or how much garage but otherwise its cut n dry.

If you are interested, here is a link to Indiana's manual detailing how they come up with the assessed valued of a house. Square footage does have a big impact, there are a lot of other factors as well, such as where the square footage is located (main floor is valued more than basement and second levels).
https://www.in.gov/dlgf/files/bk1ch3.pdf

[ysette9]

As a single person (no pets, either), I have about 2500 sq. ft., plus a two car attached garage, and a full basement.  I think I would be comfortable with as little as 1300 sq. ft. of finished living space, a two car garage (preferably attached), and at least a partial basement.  But when I look at possibly relocating to a home like that in my LCOL area, I'm not seeing much of a savings to me in home prices or property taxes for a nice smaller home in a decent neighborhood like the neighborhood I currently live in.  If the savings aren't significant by downsizing to a nice smaller home in a decent neighborhood, I would just as well have around 2000 sq. ft.   3000 sq. ft. is getting excessive, though.  And I don't want to live in a crappy house or bad neighborhood (crime, noise, etc) just to save a little money.

That all sounds so spectacularly large to me. As a single person my apartment was maybe 400 ft^2 (I don’t really have any real idea except it was rather small). As a family of four we have 1100ft^2 and about 200 of that is mostly only used by our guests when we have them. I would love a garage,  if you can’t have everything where we are.

[PiobStache]

This conversation on house sizes reminds me of driving speed.  Everyone that drives slower than me needs to get out of the way and everyone that drives faster than me is obviously a maniac.  To translate that into this conversation, "My house is just the right size and I can't figure out why you don't have a house like mine."

[robartsd]

This conversation on house sizes reminds me of driving speed.  Everyone that drives slower than me needs to get out of the way and everyone that drives faster than me is obviously a maniac.  To translate that into this conversation, "My house is just the right size and I can't figure out why you don't have a house like mine."

The variation on sizes of homes people seem to think is enough is much larger than the +/- 20% speed variation I see drivers regularly choosing on highways.

[PiobStache]

This conversation on house sizes reminds me of driving speed.  Everyone that drives slower than me needs to get out of the way and everyone that drives faster than me is obviously a maniac.  To translate that into this conversation, "My house is just the right size and I can't figure out why you don't have a house like mine."

The variation on sizes of homes people seem to think is enough is much larger than the +/- 20% speed variation I see drivers regularly choosing on highways.

Agreed but the concept itself is isomorphic.

[Prairie Stash]

This conversation on house sizes reminds me of driving speed.  Everyone that drives slower than me needs to get out of the way and everyone that drives faster than me is obviously a maniac.  To translate that into this conversation, "My house is just the right size and I can't figure out why you don't have a house like mine."

The variation on sizes of homes people seem to think is enough is much larger than the +/- 20% speed variation I see drivers regularly choosing on highways.

Agreed but the concept itself is isomorphic.

Its a decent enough analogy.

Carrying it farther, is the trend of getting large houses after the kids move out the same as having a mid life crisis and getting a Corvette?

[zolotiyeruki]

This conversation on house sizes reminds me of driving speed.  Everyone that drives slower than me needs to get out of the way and everyone that drives faster than me is obviously a maniac.  To translate that into this conversation, "My house is just the right size and I can't figure out why you don't have a house like mine."

That's a fair point.  I guess I'm an anomaly--while my home is very functional, it's also bigger than it needs to be and is under-optimized for space.  It could easily have another (very generous) bedroom and two bathrooms upstairs without making anyone feel squeezed.