Author Topic: New Over Time rules for public employees  (Read 5854 times)

teacherwithamustache

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New Over Time rules for public employees
« on: May 18, 2016, 01:34:28 PM »
Reading up on the new over time rules about to take place.  The $47,000 minimum for salaried employees is right at the what a public school teachers starting salary comes in at.  I would say that most teachers work 45-50 hours a week.

While I do not think a lot of teachers will be getting over time.  I do believe that districts will be forced to spend more money due to the amount of teacher aides and assistants employed by school districts.  The other outcome I see is that districts will be forced to raise teacher salaries to be attractive to recent graduates.  Now the recent grad will have to choose between teaching and being an office assistant making 40k a year but being eligible for over time.

I dont think the trickle down will be major but I do believe it will show up.  Get ready for school districts to cry foul about a lack of funding to pay aides thou, you can bet on that.

Thoughts?

gillstone

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 01:52:56 PM »
Most of the positions you just described are exempt from FLSA rules as "professional" positions.  The exemptions cover a pretty broad range of activities and have been a huge loophole for employers to use the thinnest justification to deny overtime.  In fact most of this theoretical office jobs may be exempt as well depending on how cannily their position description was written.

Also schools already have to compete against the market where a starting office job pays the same or more than teaching and comes without the stress of being shit on by politicians and parents who view you as babysitters.

netskyblue

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2016, 01:54:45 PM »
Teachers make that much??  I'm 10 years into a career in purchasing and I don't even make that much.

Cassie

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2016, 05:15:04 PM »
They don't start anywhere near that high in Nevada.

Northwestie

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2016, 05:24:36 PM »
The teachers I know generally put in an average of 65-75 hours every week.  Early to school for bus or playground watch, after school meetings with colleagues on special needs kids, administration meetings, parent meetings, after school functions; planning and grading in the evening, and generally 8-10 hrs of work on the weekend.

That and the increasing pressure from testing and wacko evaluations, parents who think their kids are a genius, non-parenting parents with very strange kids, English as a second language kids.  Holy crap - I couldn't do it.

Yaeger

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2016, 05:30:14 PM »
I think the overwhelming response to this will be policies from the school districts and administrations that forbid any overtime. They can't pay for it. Unfortunately, it sounds like the children will be the ones to suffer because these new rules.

Sturton

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2016, 05:31:42 PM »
Children will not suffer, because teachers are exempt from this rule.

MrsPete

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2016, 08:54:14 PM »
Teachers make that much??  I'm 10 years into a career in purchasing and I don't even make that much.
As a general rule of thumb, no, teachers don't make that much.  Teachers in my state start at 35K and after a 30 year career "top out" at 50K. 

The few teachers who DO earn those big salaries tend to be in the Northeast -- places where unions are strong.  Not surprisingly, those are also the states where every teaching position draws in 100+ applications. 

teen persuasion

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2016, 08:56:02 PM »
Children will not suffer, because teachers are exempt from this rule.

+1.  Teachers, doctors, and lawyers are exempt, regardless of salary. 

I looked into the fine print, because DH would still like to go back to teaching, but even in NY, not all teachers make that much.  He left a teaching job 2 years ago, and after 12 years he was making less than $35k.  Competition is fierce for any teaching position here.

Psychstache

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2016, 10:13:54 PM »
Teachers make that much??  I'm 10 years into a career in purchasing and I don't even make that much.
As a general rule of thumb, no, teachers don't make that much.  Teachers in my state start at 35K and after a 30 year career "top out" at 50K. 

The few teachers who DO earn those big salaries tend to be in the Northeast -- places where unions are strong.  Not surprisingly, those are also the states where every teaching position draws in 100+ applications.
As another data point, Texas has districts that start teachers at 48-50k with no unions.

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I'm a red panda

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2016, 06:10:06 AM »

As another data point, Texas has districts that start teachers at 48-50k with no unions.



There isn't great growth opportunity though, at least not compared to starting salary.

For example Fort Worth starts a teacher with 0 years experience and a Bachelor's at $50k, but after 32 years of experience and a Doctorate degree, the payscale only gives $83k. Of course, there are differentials for sponsoring clubs, bonuses for being bilingual, etc.

Fort Worth is not the norm though- that starting salary is extremely high.
For anyone curious- Texas teacher salary pay scales are public information.  You can look them up and compare the various rates.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 01:46:15 PM by iowajes »

Nothlit

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2016, 08:23:47 AM »
Most of the positions you just described are exempt from FLSA rules as "professional" positions.  The exemptions cover a pretty broad range of activities and have been a huge loophole for employers to use the thinnest justification to deny overtime.  In fact most of this theoretical office jobs may be exempt as well depending on how cannily their position description was written.

I think the OP was referring to recently announced changes that will adjust the salary threshold that determines whether certain professional employees are exempt or not. (This threshold has apparently always existed, but was so low as to barely apply to anyone; now it will be higher so that it actually applies to more people.)

Edited to add: However, I see in this FAQ that "Certain employees are not subject to either the salary basis or salary level tests (for example, doctors, teachers, and lawyers)" so in this case the point is moot. Ah, government regulations, so easy to understand...
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 08:37:17 AM by Nothlit »

tobitonic

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2016, 12:01:18 PM »
Teacher here. As others have chimed in, you aren't making 47k unless you've got lots of extra education, lots of working years, and / or work in a district and state that offers raises commensurate with those increases in education and experience. Add in all the administrative nonsense that goes with the job (as well as bigots who feel you shouldn't teach young children because, being male, you can't help but abuse them), and it's no surprise that teacher education programs are seeing declining enrollments throughout the country.

mustachianteacher

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2016, 12:55:32 PM »
Teachers in Los Angeles start at $50K, and we certainly don't have people lining up for jobs. In fact, we have chronic teacher shortages in many fields. Teaching LA's youth is tough -- similar to New York, Chicago, and other large urban districts -- and the cost of living is high, so those two sometimes (OK, often) dissuade people from teaching as a long-term career.

Rural

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2016, 04:46:43 PM »
Teachers here start at. $33k and top out at $75k with a PhD and 30 years' experience. Assistant professors start at $42k at my place if they have PhD in hand, and, given there have been no COL or any across the board raises for 9 years now, probably top out around $50k. A promotion to associate gets you another $500 a year, and there have been minor merit raises the last two years ( forbidden by law from going to more than 10% of employees).


But frankly I'm relieved none of us is subject to the new rules - they'd just make us track our time if we were, and we'd have to fabricate reports in which somehow everything happened in 40 hours.

mustachianteacher

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2016, 09:25:13 PM »
Assistant professors start at $42k at my place if they have PhD in hand, and, given there have been no COL or any across the board raises for 9 years now, probably top out around $50k. A promotion to associate gets you another $500 a year, and there have been minor merit raises the last two years ( forbidden by law from going to more than 10% of employees).

Considering the time, money, and energy that go into a Ph.D., that salary sounds downright appalling. Is there much variation between disciplines? I'd imagine a well-published Neurology professor would probably make more than a History professor.

TheAnonOne

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2016, 10:54:41 AM »
Assistant professors start at $42k at my place if they have PhD in hand, and, given there have been no COL or any across the board raises for 9 years now, probably top out around $50k. A promotion to associate gets you another $500 a year, and there have been minor merit raises the last two years ( forbidden by law from going to more than 10% of employees).

Considering the time, money, and energy that go into a Ph.D., that salary sounds downright appalling. Is there much variation between disciplines? I'd imagine a well-published Neurology professor would probably make more than a History professor.

Yea, I know several people under 20 who learned how to code and made more than that....(rare but still...)

mm1970

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2016, 11:38:32 AM »
Teachers make that much??  I'm 10 years into a career in purchasing and I don't even make that much.
It's very very location dependent.

http://www.nea.org/home/2012-2013-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

Chris22

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2016, 12:04:30 PM »
Teachers make that much??  I'm 10 years into a career in purchasing and I don't even make that much.
It's very very location dependent.

http://www.nea.org/home/2012-2013-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

And that is wildly simplistic since it's by state and generic "teacher" (kindergarten?  middle school?  special ed?  AP Biology?).

In Chicagoland (IL listed at $37k starting salary) my sister in law is a HS social studies teacher with ~13 years' experience, 1-2 masters, and is probably about $110k.  She started around $75k or so.  And only just recently started to pay ANYTHING for her family's health insurance (we pay ~$600/mo for comparable coverage). 

Rural

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2016, 01:24:38 PM »
Assistant professors start at $42k at my place if they have PhD in hand, and, given there have been no COL or any across the board raises for 9 years now, probably top out around $50k. A promotion to associate gets you another $500 a year, and there have been minor merit raises the last two years ( forbidden by law from going to more than 10% of employees).

Considering the time, money, and energy that go into a Ph.D., that salary sounds downright appalling. Is there much variation between disciplines? I'd imagine a well-published Neurology professor would probably make more than a History professor.


There is variation; the business and nursing folks make twice as much as the rest of us. But this is a teaching institution; a well- published neurology prof would not get hired if he or she did apply, because someone like that won't stay.


The school is trying to raise starting salaries in the academic fields, and those who know to negotiate can get a couple thousand extra (I did). But it's got to be a vocation around here, definitely, or sometimes desperation. Generally we manage to avoid hiring the desperate ones, but we did lose a chemistry prof today, two years before he would have gone up for tenure (and likely gotten it). A big part of that is salary, though better public schools for his new baby in a few years also played a role.


But we can't offer higher starting salaries or cost of living raises without the state legislature's approval, and they're pretty sure that all this education business just interferes with church and football anyway.


Sorry. Guess I'm a little down about the one we just lost - I know for a fact he really liked it, just didn't feel he could afford to stay. It's all true, though, about the legislature.

mm1970

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2016, 04:20:25 PM »
Teachers make that much??  I'm 10 years into a career in purchasing and I don't even make that much.
It's very very location dependent.

http://www.nea.org/home/2012-2013-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

And that is wildly simplistic since it's by state and generic "teacher" (kindergarten?  middle school?  special ed?  AP Biology?).

In Chicagoland (IL listed at $37k starting salary) my sister in law is a HS social studies teacher with ~13 years' experience, 1-2 masters, and is probably about $110k.  She started around $75k or so.  And only just recently started to pay ANYTHING for her family's health insurance (we pay ~$600/mo for comparable coverage).
Yep, my spec ed, math, and science teachers (esp jr high and high school for math and science) make much more.

Our old elementary had preschool. One of the preschool teachers quit.  Turns out that she had gotten good performance reviews (we loved her).  So she applied for an open kindergarten position at the same school.  Not only did she not get the job, the principal decided to give her a bad review.  I was having a convo with another parent who said "well, she was trying to LEAVE preschool and teach kindergarten!  Why can't she stick to preschool, it's not fair to the kids??"

Dude, do you KNOW what a preschool teacher makes?  Compared to kindergarten?  Peanuts.  (A year later she was back at the school teaching first.  Go figure.) 

Anyway, big variation.  Many of the 20+ year elementary teachers at my son's school make $75k to $80k (So Cal).  My aunt and uncle made about that in PA when they retired (each).  Also elementary.

Friend who teaches middle school science is at $85k.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: New Over Time rules for public employees
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2016, 08:08:52 PM »
Teachers make that much??  I'm 10 years into a career in purchasing and I don't even make that much.
It's very very location dependent.

http://www.nea.org/home/2012-2013-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

And that is wildly simplistic since it's by state and generic "teacher" (kindergarten?  middle school?  special ed?  AP Biology?).

In Chicagoland (IL listed at $37k starting salary) my sister in law is a HS social studies teacher with ~13 years' experience, 1-2 masters, and is probably about $110k.  She started around $75k or so.  And only just recently started to pay ANYTHING for her family's health insurance (we pay ~$600/mo for comparable coverage).

Yep, ever see the movie "Mean Girls"? That's in Evanston, Illinois.
You can find their salaries here:
http://www.eths.k12.il.us/site/Default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=344&PageID=990&ViewID=c9e0416e-f0e7-4626-aa7b-c14d59f72f85&FlexDataID=2156
Lowest salary with a Bachelor's 54k per year. Not bad. Us finance grads in 2009 started at....$8/hr? By 2012 the raging economy put us at $12/hr.