New Here...Help me understand this place

[20out]

Hello.  Been lurking for a couple weeks and just signed up.  This place is right up my alley as my wife and I are 29, pretty frugal, debt free except the house and plan to retire no later than 50.

What got me a little confused was reading about people talking about retiring young to go on food stamps.  I was under the impression this forum was about finding ways to becoming financially independent.  Is that wrong?  I guess what I'm asking is what this place is all about, investing, saving, just finding a way to stop working???  Lots of interesting stuff around here and I'm trying to wade through it.

[CNM]

The answer to your question is that persons' methods of retirement are different.  While I would venture to say that the vast majority of posters here are planning on retiring such that their retirement will NOT include the use of food stamps, the forum does not prohibit that point of view from being shared.

[RootofGood]

I was one of the 9% that said I would feel comfortable receiving food stamps and remain early retired.  However, for me, the odds of those two events ever happening concurrently are near zero, since to qualify for food stamps you can't have more than a few thousand dollars in assets, and income can't exceed a very low threshold.  And if you have almost zero assets and almost zero income, you probably won't be early retired for long. 

Maybe if you can get all your assets into Roth IRA's and Traditional IRA's and those accounts aren't looked at as assets for food stamps, you could have a really low income and still get food stamps.  I assume at some point you are cutting off your elbow to spite your thumb. 

I'll note that my investment portfolio is more than adequate to cover our projected living expenses indefinitely, so I'm not going to go out of my way to ever use food stamps, but I don't think it would be wrong if I legitimately qualify.

[swick]

Welcome 20out!

I can see how you might be confused. There are a lot of different ways to get to FI and even more opinions/discussions about which ways are morally/ethically correct. It leads to lots of hypothetical and not so hypothetical discussions.

As far as figuring out what this place is all about I would definitely check out the  "Forum Info and FAQ" category

 To sum up the general rules, the overriding principle here on this site: Be a human being and treat others respectfully.

That includes, but is not limited to:
1. Don't be a jerk.
2. Attack an argument, not a person.
3. Your posts must not break any laws.
4. Be respectful of the site and other members.
5. No spam..

Which I interpret to mean, if you are not breaking any actual laws, any methods to reach FI can be up for discussion. This forum has tons of different areas to explore, as you do, you will naturally find categories and threads that speak to you and your idea of FI. 

Have fun exploring and getting involved!

[seattlecyclone]

20out, you've stumbled upon an interesting philosophical discussion that at its heart is really about what it means to be financially independent in the first place. We would all agree that someone who has enough investments that the investment income can cover all of their expenses forever is financially independent. What about someone with plenty of savings to make it to 65, but might be relying on some money from Social Security after that? Are they financially independent? What about someone who has a lot of investments, but has a health condition that would have made them ineligible for insurance on the private market before Obamacare, and they have been working for years mostly for the employer health benefits? Are they financially independent now that they can retire and get subsidized care that isn't tied to an employer?

I wouldn't consider myself financially independent if I would have to rely on food stamps to eat. I doubt many people on here would. But there's been another discussion of whether signing up for government programs that you're eligible for but don't need because you're financially independent is morally justifiable. If there is a line between certain programs that early retirees shouldn't join and others that are okay, where does that line lie, and why? It's an interesting discussion, but I don't think it indicates that any of us would seriously consider retiring before we had enough money to buy food on our own.

[Lans Holman]

There has been a lot of hypothetical/ philosophical/ political discussion swirling around here, some of it interesting some of it not so much.  Personally, I try not to get involved in that stuff, although sometimes I can't resist.  For an anonymouse internet forum there's a pretty decent ratio of good information to ranting and raving, but you're going to get some ranting and raving, that's just the way of things.
For me the forums are a great place to come with a specific question and get friendly but honest and forceful advice from a frugal perspective.  They're also a great way to hear about what other people are doing and get inspired. 

[beltim]

I was shocked that nearly half (88/195) of the respondents of that survey would take the EIC in retirement, and more than an eighth (25/195) would take welfare/food stamps.  I had long thought MMM forums to be a place for people interested in financial independence without resorting to being cheap or unethical.  But if such large portions are willing retire early and take advantage of a program designed to provide food to those who would otherwise go hungry, or a program designed to encourage people to work instead of subsisting on welfare... well, I'm not sure that's a community that I trust to provide advice on other issues.

[swick]

I was shocked that nearly half (88/195) of the respondents of that survey would take the EIC in retirement, and more than an eighth (25/195) would take welfare/food stamps.  I had long thought MMM forums to be a place for people interested in financial independence without resorting to being cheap or unethical.  But if such large portions are willing retire early and take advantage of a program designed to provide food to those who would otherwise go hungry, or a program designed to encourage people to work instead of subsisting on welfare... well, I'm not sure that's a community that I trust to provide advice on other issues.

(Bold Emphasis mine)

I feel obligated t point out that there are approx 6882 active members on the forums. The 88 respondents who would consider taking EIC make up about 1.28% of the total membership.  or 0.36% for the food stamps. I would argue this is not a large portion of the overall community.

The fact is that with several news stories the forums have reached a critical mass in a very short amount of time. With the influx of new people come those who like to be argumentative, stir the pot, post contrary views just for the reaction and so on. Many of these loaded conversations tend to draw these people out. So the majority of us without the time or desire for drama tend to ignore these topics.

Disregarding an entire community, many of whom spend a great deal of time sharing ideas and solutions out of a genuine desire to make the journey easier, is incredibly short sighted.

[beltim]

So you're arguing that the survey doesn't accurately poll the community.  Okay, I can believe that.  But isn't the group that responds to polls also the group that participates in discussions?

[C. K.]

So the majority of us without the time or desire for drama tend to ignore these topics.

Exactly, swick. I completely ignored the post with the government handout hypotheticals. That topic wasn't of interest to me.

[swick]

So you're arguing that the survey doesn't accurately poll the community.  Okay, I can believe that.  But isn't the group that responds to polls also the group that participates in discussions?

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean you should disregard the whole community because these few people might be giving some advice that may be wrong, or given from their own point of view, or have opinions that differ from your world view.

Following the advice on any online forum or anywhere you may get advice from, it is always "Buyer Beware" you have to use your own good judgment, do your own research across a wide variety of sources and make your own informed decision.

The great thing about these forums IMO is the ability to form real relationships with people with shared interests. The PM and email buttons are a great way to get in touch with people who have similar views as you. Like any community you do get out of it what you invest.

[Rural]

So you're arguing that the survey doesn't accurately poll the community.  Okay, I can believe that.  But isn't the group that responds to polls also the group that participates in discussions?

I don't think we have any way of knowing that, actually.

[brewer12345]

Hello.  Been lurking for a couple weeks and just signed up.  This place is right up my alley as my wife and I are 29, pretty frugal, debt free except the house and plan to retire no later than 50.

What got me a little confused was reading about people talking about retiring young to go on food stamps.  I was under the impression this forum was about finding ways to becoming financially independent.  Is that wrong?  I guess what I'm asking is what this place is all about, investing, saving, just finding a way to stop working???  Lots of interesting stuff around here and I'm trying to wade through it.

Pay no attention to the pointless, argumentative claptrap.  If you were having trouble sleeping and read tose threads closely, you would see that this is all theoretical.  The people who think it would be OK to avail oneself of various gubmint programs by and large state that they think it is extremely unlikely they would ever be eligible because they have saved a big pile of scratch and live frugally.  This is all so much mental masturbation, as it were.  Most of us are working on reducing low value expenditures, saving, investing, and buying our own freedom.  The acrimonious debates are among relatively few posters, so feel free to avoid these threads and just take the valuable content.

[RootofGood]

Hello.  Been lurking for a couple weeks and just signed up.  This place is right up my alley as my wife and I are 29, pretty frugal, debt free except the house and plan to retire no later than 50.

What got me a little confused was reading about people talking about retiring young to go on food stamps.  I was under the impression this forum was about finding ways to becoming financially independent.  Is that wrong?  I guess what I'm asking is what this place is all about, investing, saving, just finding a way to stop working???  Lots of interesting stuff around here and I'm trying to wade through it.

Pay no attention to the pointless, argumentative claptrap.  If you were having trouble sleeping and read tose threads closely, you would see that this is all theoretical.  The people who think it would be OK to avail oneself of various gubmint programs by and large state that they think it is extremely unlikely they would ever be eligible because they have saved a big pile of scratch and live frugally.  This is all so much mental masturbation, as it were.  Most of us are working on reducing low value expenditures, saving, investing, and buying our own freedom.  The acrimonious debates are among relatively few posters, so feel free to avoid these threads and just take the valuable content.

+1

I like those "ethics" threads because it's interesting to see how people think.  But I place them in the "theoretical" thought bucket.  It's unlikely anyone will actually be able to hoover up all those government bennies! 

We could just as well discuss "which city is the most awesome: San Francisco, Detroit, Chicago, Austin, or New York?" or which came first, the chicken or the egg.  How many angels could fit on the head of a pin?  Is MMM real?  Does the entire universe rotate about us or is earth, in fact, spinning.  The moon - highly aged beaver cheese or celestial detritus cast off from earth and/or other planets or dust clouds?  I bet any one of those topics could generate a thread a hundred posts long with acrimony aplenty.