New FIRE Spend Poll

[ixtap]

We plan to pull 10k a month for two people.  That will have to service our mortgage which is currently 160K currently at about 2K a month.

I was just looking at spending patterns yesterday. $10k is the highest we have spent over the last 12 months and that included a down payment on a boat project, as well as more generous than usual Christmas presents. 2 people, rent = $2700.

Makes me want to be a fly on the wall to see other people's lifestyles! I know that my parents and my in laws claim to spend the same amount annually, but have very different lifestyles, so the raw numbers don't say much.

[Metalcat]

We plan to pull 10k a month for two people.  That will have to service our mortgage which is currently 160K currently at about 2K a month.

I was just looking at spending patterns yesterday. $10k is the highest we have spent over the last 12 months and that included a down payment on a boat project, as well as more generous than usual Christmas presents. 2 people, rent = $2700.

Makes me want to be a fly on the wall to see other people's lifestyles! I know that my parents and my in laws claim to spend the same amount annually, but have very different lifestyles, so the raw numbers don't say much.

They really don't.

It's crazy how different lifestyles can be even with similar spends.

That's really been the eye opening thing to me, how enormous a range of spends can produce the same general lifestyle. That's why so many high spend people find it so baffling to spend so little, because they're just living a "normal" lifestyle.

The error in judgement is that spending a lot more or spending a lot less actually significantly changes the way you live. It really doesn't, it just changes the details.

A simple example of this is my kitchen renovation vs my friend's kitchen renovation (she's very wealthy). As I mentioned before, I'm refinishing very old cabinet doors myself, she ripped out all of her cabinets and put in new ones. I am replacing my laminate countertop with new laminate, she's replacing hers with very expensive stone. I replaced my own sink and faucet and she brought in a plumber to do the same job with more expensive fixtures. I'm considering re-tiling my backsplash myself, probably with simple subway tiles, while she had a custom mosaic done by a very expensive artisanal tiler. Her appliances are all Cafe,

At the end of the day, we both get a pretty kitchen. Hers will cost tens of times more than mine, and hers will absolutely be more impressive. No one will enter my kitchen, gasp, and say "OMG wow", but they'll both work very well as kitchens, and will both look nice.

My point is that the astronomical increase in price of her kitchen will not produce an outcome in terms of life impact proportional to the increased expense. At the end of the day, they're both just kitchens.

It's the same with most expenses. Dramatic increases in cost usually only produce marginal increases in outcome.

My kitchen example is an extreme example, but do the same comparison for every single spending decision and you can see how minor adjustments in choices could account for MASSIVE differences in spending, even within the same lifestyle range.

Just think about it: cars, clothes, hair, housing, home supplies, food, entertainment, education, travel, etc, etc, etc. Literally everything has an enormous range of costs that produce roughly the same outcome in terms of quality of life.

All of the above categories can have price ranges where the top end of the *same thing* costs hundreds to thousands of times more for just a fancier version, but with the same basic life impact.

[ender]

Back when we used to see more case studies on the forum this was pretty noticeable.

It's not that hard to burn up $100k or even $200k in spending a year.

[Metalcat]

Back when we used to see more case studies on the forum this was pretty noticeable.

It's not that hard to burn up $100k or even $200k in spending a year.

Exactly. I could easily bump my spending to 100+K without any appreciable change to my day to day life.

[ender]

Yeah.

I feel this with my real life family. We are on pace to spend still about $60k this year as a family of 3 with a few larger one off purchases pushing up to 100k. Which feels outrageously luxurious to us.

My family sees only a glimpse into our spending and probably thinks we're spending a ton more than we actually are. Because, if you scaled ALL our spending similarly to what they "see" then it's likely going to come across as a ton more than we do and likely reflect what they think.


People struggle to empathize with spending habits that are much different from them at all, to be honest. Your friend probably can't fathom doing what you did on your kitchen remodel.

The analogy I've used before is that spending is on a ladder. Maybe every $5k spending increments, idk. But either way we have a really hard time visualizing many rungs above/below us.

Someone spending $25k/year is going to look at someone spending $100k year and go "wtf! how!?" just as similar as they might see someone spending $10k/year similarly.

But spending $100k/year makes it easier to imagine $110k or $90k, but not $25k.

Relatively few people can imagine/visualize very far away on the spending continuum. You can see that playing out even in this thread.

[Metalcat]

Yeah.

I feel this with my real life family. We are on pace to spend still about $60k this year as a family of 3 with a few larger one off purchases pushing up to 100k. Which feels outrageously luxurious to us.

My family sees only a glimpse into our spending and probably thinks we're spending a ton more than we actually are. Because, if you scaled ALL our spending similarly to what they "see" then it's likely going to come across as a ton more than we do and likely reflect what they think.


People struggle to empathize with spending habits that are much different from them at all, to be honest. Your friend probably can't fathom doing what you did on your kitchen remodel.

The analogy I've used before is that spending is on a ladder. Maybe every $5k spending increments, idk. But either way we have a really hard time visualizing many rungs above/below us.

Someone spending $25k/year is going to look at someone spending $100k year and go "wtf! how!?" just as similar as they might see someone spending $10k/year similarly.

But spending $100k/year makes it easier to imagine $110k or $90k, but not $25k.

Relatively few people can imagine/visualize very far away on the spending continuum. You can see that playing out even in this thread.

Funnily, she can, she's spending more because I talked her into it using some of her obscene wealth to hire local artisans instead of going for mass produced options, lol.

I have no problem with larger spends. What I have a problem with is narrow, biased, uncritical thinking.

[Fire2025]

I feel like this is how the "become a millionaire saving $20" argument works.  It's not $20, it's $20 across 1000s of choices, across 20 years of compounding growth and ya, turns out saving $20 can make me a millionaire. 

There's no really effect on lifestyle, but the effect on savings is huge, but it's really hard to see the long term goal, one latte at a time.  Unless someone challenges your thinking about that latte or new clown car vs 5 year old clown car, ect. 

[Sandi_k]

We have close friends who make about the same as we do - but we have lots more savings, and lots more security in retirement because of choices we've made.

We were talking about this recently - she told me "we were talking about how we make about the same amount of income, but you guys are doing so much better overall." DH and I later talked about it, and we came up with several reasons....

- We have not had interrupted employment (the husband was out of work at one point for nearly 3 years, when he quit a job after the Great Recession without another lined up).

- He spends an ENORMOUS amount on his adult children (he was the non-custodial parent, and he was out of his older kid's life for nearly a decade; now, he's afraid to not hand over funds when asked, because he doesn't want to lose contact again with his now-33-year-old-son).

- We save. A lot. Consistently, through automation.

- We have not used our home as an ATM, with multiple cash-out refis.

- We have a written budget, and limit our unplanned spending.

- We do not lose, break, or damage our cell phones, so we have them 2-3x longer than they do. (They once again got new phones this year; ours are now 5.5 years old). Multiply this over computers, TVs, cars, etc.

- We do not "redecorate" often. We might buy new pillows or an area rug, but we leave the major furniture as-is. They've replaced a bed twice in the past 6 years; they've paid for a custom Murphy bed in their "office", and they completely replaced all of their kitchen plates/bowls/silverware recently, because she "had to go" to someplace in TX where an HGTV celebrity has a store selling such stuff.

- We don't eat out often. And when we do, it's lunch. They have coffee from a local drive thru in the morning (it's a treat!), and then *might* eat lunch at home. Then it's dinner out, or GrubHub.

- We don't shop recreationally. When they're bored, they go wander Costco or the mall, and come home with stuff they don't need, and didn't plan on buying.

- We don't spend a lot on entertainment. We have cable (the cheapest package) with Disney+ (a Christmas gift from my brother). They have cable, Disney+, AppleTV, Amazon Prime, Hulu, and HBO. They *also* go out to the movie theater on opening night, now that theaters are open again (he's a huge movie fan). And when they go to the theater, they go to the one with recliners, assigned seats, and food brought to you while the movie is running. Those tickets are ~ $20 per person, and then they spend another $20 per person on food. So a movie night is ~ $80. Multiple times per month. Us? We haven't been inside a movie theater since Christmas 2019.

- We DIY a lot of our home repair and improvement. They bought a house with a pool, and promptly bought a jacuzzi tub to go with it. The pool has been hard to keep up with, so they've now hired a Pool Guy to come 2x per month to keep the chemicals up to date, and the cleaning/sweeping done, rather than doing it themselves.

So yes! You can look at our lifestyle, and not see an appreciable difference in what we do/how we live. But when you dig a little deeper, they choose to spend in every dimension, while we prioritize how we lay out the cash....

[BicycleB]

The analogy I've used before is that spending is on a ladder. Maybe every $5k spending increments, idk. But either way we have a really hard time visualizing many rungs above/below us.

Someone spending $25k/year is going to look at someone spending $100k year and go "wtf! how!?" just as similar as they might see someone spending $10k/year similarly.

But spending $100k/year makes it easier to imagine $110k or $90k, but not $25k.

Relatively few people can imagine/visualize very far away on the spending continuum. You can see that playing out even in this thread.

Malcat already gave counterexamples, but I think the bold is true for many people!

[Dicey]

When DH and I got married, he asked if he could be the one who handles the bills. His first wife was a bookkeeper and when she died, he knew nothing of their day-to-day finances. I happily agreed to let him handle everything, so I really didn't know what our spend rate is on a month-to-month basis. (Don't worry, I have access to all of our accounts, well, except for his work 401k, but I'm the beneficiary, and it's not huge, nor is it a significant amount of our NW.)

I am the one who is frugal in our day-to-day spending. I grocery shop like a ninja and I volunteer at a thrift store, so most of our wardrobe and general household needs (gifts, linens, housewares, etc.) come from there. He is a man of few wants, and he's great at keeping a lid on our recurring costs such as insurance, cellphones, internet, etc. We make such a good team that we seldom discuss small finances. We discuss our FIRE numbers frequently.

Yesterday, DH told me (because I finally remembered to ask) that our average spending has been around $4400/month for the last five years, which made me a happy camper. First, because I can answer this poll (snirt) and second, because we comfortably spend way less than our income, despite living in a HCOLA. We live a pretty luxurious life. Oh, and $1k+/month of our spending is for property taxes, so I'd say I'm very pleased with our fiscal synchronicity.

[DaMa]

In 2017 I was living in San Diego on $3k per month.   $1700 was rent, and $400 budgeted for travel.   People say It's expensive to live in CA, but most people I know spend far more than that in MI. 

My budget is still $3k a month, but now I'm retired. I own my condo and housing is only $300 per month (HOA + property tax), but healthcare is $800.

[cannotWAIT]

The error in judgement is that spending a lot more or spending a lot less actually significantly changes the way you live. It really doesn't, it just changes the details.

I absolutely know this to be true. When I was married, our AGI was $130K and our spend was totally ridiculous, basically everything except an IRA contribution for each of us. Then three years ago I got divorced but stayed living in the same house; now my income is $70K and my spend is $18,500. And my life doesn't feel very different at all! I eat at the same restaurants, just far less frequently, but I hardly notice it. I buy the same stupidly fancy groceries, just waste less. I still have cute clothes, but it turns out that cute things don't always have to come from J.Crew (but sometimes!). I still travel as much as I want (which is not very much), but now I stay with friends or relatives instead of in a hotel or at a second home. My main interests are cooking and hiking, and those are completely unchanged. My friends and family are the same. My house is the same. My car is the same. The pattern of my days is the same. The face in the mirror is the same.

When I read people saying that they spend $10K a month, my initial reaction is to think that I wouldn't even begin to know how to spend that much. But then I remember that I used to spend almost that much, for a life that didn't feel very different at all from the one I have now. I wasn't happier then. And I didn't feel richer then. So yeah, the only thing different was the details.

Also, I have had the great good fortune to have experienced wildly different lifestyles over the course of my life, from food stamps to full staff of live-in help, and, well, food stamps suck. Definitely more is better--but nowhere near as better as most people imagine. Because what really affects your life the most is your relationships and your physical experience of living in your own body, and once you have access to decent health care the money isn't guaranteed to improve either one, and often it's actively detrimental.

[DadJokes]

My June 2021 spending:

Discretionary: $122
Dog: $116
Food & grocery: $398
Health & life insurance: $126
Mortgage: $1633
Toddler: $85
Taxes: $865
Transportation: $122
Utilities: $200

Total monthly spend: $3667
Annualized: $44k

Annualized taking out mortgage, FICA taxes, dog, and child: ~$18k

We also had no large expenses that month. I still said over $31k in the poll, because I plan to spend more in retirement.

[herbgeek]

For at least the last 5 years. our annual spending has been in the 40-45K range.  I feel I have a sloppy, cushy, incredibly luxurious spendy pants retirement.  I have everything I want.  I can't imagine spending twice as much, I couldn't even come up with categories I could spend that on.  And that's with not intentionally containing  my spending, I buy  things I don't really need (but could use) that catch my fancy.

We always lived below our means, the last 10 years or so before retirement, saving about 50% of gross income (medium level earners).  I don't feel that I ever "gave up" anything of value for that saving rate.  We've had reliable cars, regular vacations and weekends away, generous to family, eat very very well, drink reasonably decent wines etc.

I used to get inspired here when reading threads like the $200/month for food thread, but the last few years, I feel that I'm quite the outlier.   But I'm happy living my best life being retired, I've been planning for retirement very shortly after starting working (even though I often enjoyed my work).

[Bateaux]

We plan to pull 10k a month for two people.  That will have to service our mortgage which is currently 160K currently at about 2K a month.

I was just looking at spending patterns yesterday. $10k is the highest we have spent over the last 12 months and that included a down payment on a boat project, as well as more generous than usual Christmas presents. 2 people, rent = $2700.

Makes me want to be a fly on the wall to see other people's lifestyles! I know that my parents and my in laws claim to spend the same amount annually, but have very different lifestyles, so the raw numbers don't say much.

We've lived below our means in our working years.  Our retirement years I'm almost certain will be more costly and hopefully comfortable.  We've worked so many hours, that most of the time that's all there is time for.  I just completed an 84 hour stint in seven days.  I don't plan to just throw money away in retirement, maybe give a lot of it away.  Also we will live a bit more in luxury.  We've been in our 2000 square foot home our whole married and work lives.  Our 4000 foot Florida house is much nicer and will be for two adults, not four like our current home.  I've driven every car we've owned till the wheels fall off.  We'll keep nicer cars in the future.  I've always owned trailerable power boats, not really expensive ones.  We could purchase a sailing yacht, most likely not, but maybe.   Travel.  We aren't well traveled.  Too much work, too many family emergencies, obligations.  We'll be traveling more.  Restaurants.  We don't often eat in restaurants unless on a vacation.  I want to take my wife to nice restaurants and tip the staff well.  Generational wealth.  We have the power to make our children and their children wealthy.  Not very mustaciain I know.  We lived that way to get here.  Our total net worth will likely be near four million by the end of 2023.  We aren't those people yet.  But I'm looking forward to the lifestyle creep.

[American GenX]

Our total net worth will likely be near four million by the end of 2023.  We aren't those people yet.  But I'm looking forward to the lifestyle creep.

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

[Villanelle]

I look around at friends and see people whose lifestyle probably looks cheaper than mine, but likely spend at least twice as much.

To be fair, in at least one case that includes 6 figures in student loan debt which doesn't show any difference in lifestyle to an outside observer.

But there are also new cars every few years, and usually with an upgraded engine (and lower gas mileage).  There's tens of thousands of miles put on those cars each year, where someone thinks nothing of driving 3 hours to spend a couple hours with family (and not just occasionally).  There's cosmetic procedures and expensive diet fads and lots of clothes (probably only moderately expensive, as far as I can tell; these are not $500 dresses, but there are lots of $100 dresses, I think).  There are upgraded wedding rings and very expensive dance classes (and fancy costumes, and traveling) for a kid.  There are brand name clothes for kids once they get to the age where they care about such things. Frequent trips to expensive amusement parks and other similar adventures.

However, my newest home (rental) is about 4 times the size of theirs. (It was actually cheaper than most viable alternatives, unless we wanted a longer commute.)  My Corolla (bought used) looks shiny and new and will continue to do so for years.  If I am out shopping and want something, I just buy it, which no doubt gives the impression of wealth. 

So to anyone looking, my lifestyle probably looks far more expensive than theirs, when in reality it costs far, far less.  Unless you could IRAs and retirement account investments, I suppose.

[jim555]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

[sui generis]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

Yeah, I definitely get a guilt complex if I think about replacing my tennis shoes or buying the fish that's not on sale at the grocery store this week or...well, anything material at least.  I don't have a problem with spending on experiences, but buying actual *things* comes with some pretty heavy guilt.

[Bateaux]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

Yeah, I definitely get a guilt complex if I think about replacing my tennis shoes or buying the fish that's not on sale at the grocery store this week or...well, anything material at least.  I don't have a problem with spending on experiences, but buying actual *things* comes with some pretty heavy guilt.

I'm hoping to learn how to spend 10K a month.  We've never spent that much in our lives.  But, if we were to FiRE today we could probably do so.  Our LNW is 3M.  I'm working a little longer to cover the taxes.

[Dicey]

Our total net worth will likely be near four million by the end of 2023.  We aren't those people yet.  But I'm looking forward to the lifestyle creep.

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Bateaux was specifically referring to generational wealth when he cited his new worth. When you're dead, the value of your home is absolutely included in TNW, because you won't be needing it any more. Bateaux has plenty of stash to fund his lifestyle, current and projected.

[dmc]

My wife and I have been retired now for 14 years.  We spend about 60k each.  Health insurance runs us about 20k a year, I’ll be 65 next year so that should come down a bit.  I keep thinking our spending will go down a bit, but it never seems to do so.  There usually is a big ticket item or trip that keeps it up there.

[dmc]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

Yeah, I definitely get a guilt complex if I think about replacing my tennis shoes or buying the fish that's not on sale at the grocery store this week or...well, anything material at least.  I don't have a problem with spending on experiences, but buying actual *things* comes with some pretty heavy guilt.

I'm hoping to learn how to spend 10K a month.  We've never spent that much in our lives.  But, if we were to FiRE today we could probably do so.  Our LNW is 3M.  I'm working a little longer to cover the taxes.

I’ve been doing it for years, join a country club if you like to golf, boats, and planes  will go thru some.  Some people like to travel. 

[uniwelder]

It’s probably time for a moderator to put this thread in the “antimustachian wall of shame” section of the forum.

[Metalcat]

It’s probably time for a moderator to put this thread in the “antimustachian wall of shame” section of the forum.

Well, it's certainly been an interesting discussion.

[wageslave23]

It’s probably time for a moderator to put this thread in the “antimustachian wall of shame” section of the forum.

Or the "humble brag" section of the forum.

[Metalcat]

It’s probably time for a moderator to put this thread in the “antimustachian wall of shame” section of the forum.

Or the "humble brag" section of the forum.

But why? You asked folks what they spend, and they told you. They were then asked what they spend on, and they told you.

How is that bragging?

[PDXTabs]

I'm hoping to learn how to spend 10K a month.  We've never spent that much in our lives.  But, if we were to FiRE today we could probably do so.  Our LNW is 3M.  I'm working a little longer to cover the taxes.

Keeping in mind that donations to charity are spending, I don't understand your problem. No offense intended, I just don't understand. You could give me $1T USD and I'd figure out how to spend it even if I have to start my own utility companies to make sure that everyone has access to a toilet or start my own market for soil restoration notes.

[Metalcat]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

Yeah, I definitely get a guilt complex if I think about replacing my tennis shoes or buying the fish that's not on sale at the grocery store this week or...well, anything material at least.  I don't have a problem with spending on experiences, but buying actual *things* comes with some pretty heavy guilt.

I'm hoping to learn how to spend 10K a month.  We've never spent that much in our lives.  But, if we were to FiRE today we could probably do so.  Our LNW is 3M.  I'm working a little longer to cover the taxes.

Well, if you read my recent posts, you will see that it's very easy to do and you probably won't even notice it much.

So if that's your goal, it will easily be accomplished and chances are your lifestyle will feel pretty much exactly the same.

[Bateaux]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

Yeah, I definitely get a guilt complex if I think about replacing my tennis shoes or buying the fish that's not on sale at the grocery store this week or...well, anything material at least.  I don't have a problem with spending on experiences, but buying actual *things* comes with some pretty heavy guilt.

I'm hoping to learn how to spend 10K a month.  We've never spent that much in our lives.  But, if we were to FiRE today we could probably do so.  Our LNW is 3M.  I'm working a little longer to cover the taxes.

Well, if you read my recent posts, you will see that it's very easy to do and you probably won't even notice it much.

So if that's your goal, it will easily be accomplished and chances are your lifestyle will feel pretty much exactly the same.

That is quite possibly true.  We haven't had enough free time to spend a lot of money.  I've worked thousands of hours of overtime in my job.  It comes with the job, I'd have to change positions to avoid the overtime.  Honestly, I just want to ride my bike.  A really nice bike.

[Metalcat]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

Yeah, I definitely get a guilt complex if I think about replacing my tennis shoes or buying the fish that's not on sale at the grocery store this week or...well, anything material at least.  I don't have a problem with spending on experiences, but buying actual *things* comes with some pretty heavy guilt.

I'm hoping to learn how to spend 10K a month.  We've never spent that much in our lives.  But, if we were to FiRE today we could probably do so.  Our LNW is 3M.  I'm working a little longer to cover the taxes.

Well, if you read my recent posts, you will see that it's very easy to do and you probably won't even notice it much.

So if that's your goal, it will easily be accomplished and chances are your lifestyle will feel pretty much exactly the same.

That is quite possibly true.  We haven't had enough free time to spend a lot of money.  I've worked thousands of hours of overtime in my job.  It comes with the job, I'd have to change positions to avoid the overtime.  Honestly, I just want to ride my bike.  A really nice bike.

It sounds like your lifestyle change in retirement due to having more time resources will have MUCH more impact than spending more money.

My life feels far more luxurious now that I'm retired and spend less.

[wageslave23]

It’s probably time for a moderator to put this thread in the “antimustachian wall of shame” section of the forum.

Or the "humble brag" section of the forum.

But why? You asked folks what they spend, and they told you. They were then asked what they spend on, and they told you.

How is that bragging?

It was a simple question, how much do you plan on spending in retirement.  I asked a couple of the really low spenders for details so that I could see if there was anything I could incorporate/cut out of my budget in order to emulate them.  The commenters who come on here to complain that the poll options are too low because their spending and/or the amount that their huge stache "would allow them to spend" is specifically an option is not really helpful.  And seems to be either attention seeking or bragging to me.  I want to believe that if I had a very high spend or huge stache, I would just select the corresponding poll option and move on.  If the poll question is do you prefer domestic or foreign automobiles.  And I drove a Lamborgini, I would not say, well technically I drive a foreign vehicle but you should have an option for "foreign supercars" because I drive a Lambo and that would more accurately fit my vehicle.  I could be wrong, but that was the vibe I was getting from a couple of the posters.  I'm definitely not jealous though, I'm only jealous of people that have already reached FIRE and congrats to them.  I just don't think its a good look to say, my spending or possible spend is so high above the median member that I need higher answer options so that I can specify just how much higher it is.

[Metalcat]

It’s probably time for a moderator to put this thread in the “antimustachian wall of shame” section of the forum.

Or the "humble brag" section of the forum.

But why? You asked folks what they spend, and they told you. They were then asked what they spend on, and they told you.

How is that bragging?

It was a simple question, how much do you plan on spending in retirement.  I asked a couple of the really low spenders for details so that I could see if there was anything I could incorporate/cut out of my budget in order to emulate them.  The commenters who come on here to complain that the poll options are too low because their spending and/or the amount that their huge stache "would allow them to spend" is specifically an option is not really helpful.  And seems to be either attention seeking or bragging to me.  I want to believe that if I had a very high spend or huge stache, I would just select the corresponding poll option and move on.  If the poll question is do you prefer domestic or foreign automobiles.  And I drove a Lamborgini, I would not say, well technically I drive a foreign vehicle but you should have an option for "foreign supercars" because I drive a Lambo and that would more accurately fit my vehicle.  I could be wrong, but that was the vibe I was getting from a couple of the posters.  I'm definitely not jealous though, I'm only jealous of people that have already reached FIRE and congrats to them.  I just don't think its a good look to say, my spending or possible spend is so high above the median member that I need higher answer options so that I can specify just how much higher it is.

I've already commented A LOT about this in this thread already, so you already know my position.

Still, I don't think you can ask people what their spending is and not expect the higher spenders to answer what their reality is.

People like to talk about themselves. If you ask, they're going to answer. Also, a lot of people don't really read the OP of a poll, they just read the title and answer.

If you want a thread to focus on lower spends, then my recommendation is to put that in the thread title.

[flyingaway]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

Yeah, I definitely get a guilt complex if I think about replacing my tennis shoes or buying the fish that's not on sale at the grocery store this week or...well, anything material at least.  I don't have a problem with spending on experiences, but buying actual *things* comes with some pretty heavy guilt.

I'm hoping to learn how to spend 10K a month.  We've never spent that much in our lives.  But, if we were to FiRE today we could probably do so.  Our LNW is 3M.  I'm working a little longer to cover the taxes.

Casinos are good places to spend money, as well as comfortable travels. $10K a month is not enough for people who want something that is not just basics. 

[DaMa]

Or ask a different question.  How about what is your monthly retirement spend now, and what would you cut (if any) if your stache took a big hit?

My monthly is $3k.  I could cut $400 travel budget, $400 529 contribution for grandchildren, $100 eating out, and $100 crafting allowance to get me to $2k. 

[bloodaxe]

Annual spend: $25k / 2 people = 12.5k/person.

Monthly breakdown:
Rent: $940
Groceries: $600
Transportation: $100 (we share a Toyota)
Internet/Phone/Electricity/Water/Renter's insurance: $170
Travel: $50 (~2 domestic flights per year and we use points)
Misc: $200

Misc includes:
We run a lot (> 50 miles a week) so replace shoes frequently. Also race fees.
We frequent local coffee shops
Occasional visits to farmers market for local produce. The markets here are $$$$$$ so we don't go often.

Outside of big money on groceries and having a travel budget, our lifestyle is nearly identical to our spending as college students. We have little wants and not interested in spending money. We never got on the hedonism treadmill.

[BDWW]

First, thanks @Malcat for taking the effort to try to push back against the tide.

I always find it fascinating how so many objectively wealthy/upper class people tend to claim their lives are not extravagant or are "middle class."  Hint(USA): as of 2020 135K+ income puts you above middle class by virtually all commonly accepted definitions. 2020 Median household income $68K, individual $36K.  Going by the poll and comments, most here are planning on spending at least equal, and most substantially more than half the country earns. 

Fair enough on them if that's what they want, but it seems to me the idea of conscientious spending, much less frugality, on this forum has long been sunset.

Oh and

I don't feel we are "high society" or anything like that, but we do own a lot of real estate and, farms, a primary home, lake home and a hunting camp.

Thanks for the chuckle!

[American GenX]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

You're exactly right.  In theory, I can see how spending can add up quickly in retirement, but actually carrying through with a much higher spend is a different matter.  I'll have opposing forces of my inherent frugal nature against the pressure to spend down my stache so that I don't leave anything on the table.

[Glenstache]

I always concern myself much more with my stash than my net worth since net worth includes my home, which isn't part of my drawdown.

I'm not sure where I will ramp up my discretionary spending in retirement, but it's easy to spend money.  lol

Then you will run into the "can't break the frugal mode" problem.  I still find it hard to spend without a very good reason.

You're exactly right.  In theory, I can see how spending can add up quickly in retirement, but actually carrying through with a much higher spend is a different matter.  I'll have opposing forces of my inherent frugal nature against the pressure to spend down my stache so that I don't leave anything on the table.

I suggest watching Brewster's Millions for guidance.

[ixtap]

DH has mentioned buying a new custom yacht and keeping two yachts in different parts of the world. I bet we could run up the spending with that lifestyle.

[PDXTabs]

DH has mentioned buying a new custom yacht and keeping two yachts in different parts of the world. I bet we could run up the spending with that lifestyle.

Yachts are like other things in the world where you can spend a little or a lot. But a new custom yacht would be on the a lot end.

I myself think about buying something like an Express 37. But it might be my house, at least for a while.

[Bateaux]

First, thanks @Malcat for taking the effort to try to push back against the tide.

I always find it fascinating how so many objectively wealthy/upper class people tend to claim their lives are not extravagant or are "middle class."  Hint(USA): as of 2020 135K+ income puts you above middle class by virtually all commonly accepted definitions. 2020 Median household income $68K, individual $36K.  Going by the poll and comments, most here are planning on spending at least equal, and most substantially more than half the country earns. 

Fair enough on them if that's what they want, but it seems to me the idea of conscientious spending, much less frugality, on this forum has long been sunset.

Oh and

I don't feel we are "high society" or anything like that, but we do own a lot of real estate and, farms, a primary home, lake home and a hunting camp.

Thanks for the chuckle!

Many of us are pushing out to FAT FIRE.  We were frugal when it counted most, our early years. 

[ixtap]

DH has mentioned buying a new custom yacht and keeping two yachts in different parts of the world. I bet we could run up the spending with that lifestyle.

Yachts are like other things in the world where you can spend a little or a lot. But a new custom yacht would be on the a lot end.

I myself think about buying something like an Express 37. But it might be my house, at least for a while.

The current yacht is a very reasonably priced one and was our home for four years and will be our home again as of next year. The one we are considering isn't crazy a lot, but keeping the current one in one part of the world, the new one in another part of the world and travelling between the two would certainly add to our expenses. The real plan is to sail the current one for awhile and then upgrade at some point in the future, rather than maintaining two boats in different parts of the world.

[American GenX]

First, thanks @Malcat for taking the effort to try to push back against the tide.

I always find it fascinating how so many objectively wealthy/upper class people tend to claim their lives are not extravagant or are "middle class."  Hint(USA): as of 2020 135K+ income puts you above middle class by virtually all commonly accepted definitions. 2020 Median household income $68K, individual $36K.  Going by the poll and comments, most here are planning on spending at least equal, and most substantially more than half the country earns. 

Fair enough on them if that's what they want, but it seems to me the idea of conscientious spending, much less frugality, on this forum has long been sunset.

Oh and

I don't feel we are "high society" or anything like that, but we do own a lot of real estate and, farms, a primary home, lake home and a hunting camp.

Thanks for the chuckle!

Many of us are pushing out to FAT FIRE.  We were frugal when it counted most, our early years.

I hear that!

[bryan995]

First, thanks @Malcat for taking the effort to try to push back against the tide.

I always find it fascinating how so many objectively wealthy/upper class people tend to claim their lives are not extravagant or are "middle class."  Hint(USA): as of 2020 135K+ income puts you above middle class by virtually all commonly accepted definitions. 2020 Median household income $68K, individual $36K.  Going by the poll and comments, most here are planning on spending at least equal, and most substantially more than half the country earns. 

Fair enough on them if that's what they want, but it seems to me the idea of conscientious spending, much less frugality, on this forum has long been sunset.

Oh and

I don't feel we are "high society" or anything like that, but we do own a lot of real estate and, farms, a primary home, lake home and a hunting camp.

Thanks for the chuckle!

Many of us are pushing out to FAT FIRE.  We were frugal when it counted most, our early years.

I hear that!

Exactly!

And how is this not viewed as a simple optimization problem?
Minimize spend, maximize income/savings, optimize for freedom. done.

It should not be to minimize spend at all costs.  Does the law of diminishing returns not apply here?

Saving ~70% is saving ~70%.  You have 8.8 years to work, and then you are done.  A lovely tenure in the workforce.  Bravo.

Even post-FIRE, when one can no longer optimize the income/savings side of the equation, there is a point at which spending is reduced enough relative to stash size that there are negligible benefits. You've hit the magical 80/20 rule, ship it.

But I get it, even at a high absolute spend, one can and should focus their spend only on things that truly bring value. It’s notable to try to limit one's impact on the earth and reduce consumption just for consumption's sake. To question why society suggests you need A, B, and C to be deemed successful or to live a happy life. But it is also dangerous to take it to the extreme. You can only min/max this so much. 

[joe189man]

I am surprised by my gut reactions to many posts in this thread, amazement at low FIRE spend rates and talk of 3 yachts, farms and lake houses, and dumpster diving among many others.

FWIW i hypothesize we will spend ~35-45k per person in retirement

[Metalcat]

First, thanks @Malcat for taking the effort to try to push back against the tide.

I always find it fascinating how so many objectively wealthy/upper class people tend to claim their lives are not extravagant or are "middle class."  Hint(USA): as of 2020 135K+ income puts you above middle class by virtually all commonly accepted definitions. 2020 Median household income $68K, individual $36K.  Going by the poll and comments, most here are planning on spending at least equal, and most substantially more than half the country earns. 

Fair enough on them if that's what they want, but it seems to me the idea of conscientious spending, much less frugality, on this forum has long been sunset.

Oh and

I don't feel we are "high society" or anything like that, but we do own a lot of real estate and, farms, a primary home, lake home and a hunting camp.

Thanks for the chuckle!

Many of us are pushing out to FAT FIRE.  We were frugal when it counted most, our early years.

I hear that!

Exactly!

And how is this not viewed as a simple optimization problem?
Minimize spend, maximize income/savings, optimize for freedom. done.

It should not be to minimize spend at all costs.  Does the law of diminishing returns not apply here?

Saving ~70% is saving ~70%.  You have 8.8 years to work, and then you are done.  A lovely tenure in the workforce.  Bravo.

Even post-FIRE, when one can no longer optimize the income/savings side of the equation, there is a point at which spending is reduced enough relative to stash size that there are negligible benefits. You've hit the magical 80/20 rule, ship it.

But I get it, even at a high absolute spend, one can and should focus their spend only on things that truly bring value. It’s notable to try to limit one's impact on the earth and reduce consumption just for consumption's sake. To question why society suggests you need A, B, and C to be deemed successful or to live a happy life. But it is also dangerous to take it to the extreme. You can only min/max this so much.

???

Didn't we cover this already in detail in this very thread that it's never ever been about cutting spending at all costs???

Didn't I write a bunch of really long posts about it?

[badger1988]

Reading this thread and the forum in general, I've realized that the average person I know IRL is equally, if not more "mustachian" than the average person here...only difference being awareness of the FIRE concept.

[bloodaxe]

Reading this thread and the forum in general, I've realized that the average person I know IRL is equally, if not more "mustachian" than the average person here...only difference being awareness of the FIRE concept.

Same. This forum turned into Bogleheads. It's hard to relate to a lot of posters now.

I'm into frugality mostly because of environmental/ascetic/spiritual reasons. Couldn't imagine the waste that goes into $45k < spend. HCOL or VHCOL doesn't justify it either.

[bryan995]

First, thanks @Malcat for taking the effort to try to push back against the tide.

I always find it fascinating how so many objectively wealthy/upper class people tend to claim their lives are not extravagant or are "middle class."  Hint(USA): as of 2020 135K+ income puts you above middle class by virtually all commonly accepted definitions. 2020 Median household income $68K, individual $36K.  Going by the poll and comments, most here are planning on spending at least equal, and most substantially more than half the country earns. 

Fair enough on them if that's what they want, but it seems to me the idea of conscientious spending, much less frugality, on this forum has long been sunset.

Oh and

I don't feel we are "high society" or anything like that, but we do own a lot of real estate and, farms, a primary home, lake home and a hunting camp.

Thanks for the chuckle!

Many of us are pushing out to FAT FIRE.  We were frugal when it counted most, our early years.

I hear that!

Exactly!

And how is this not viewed as a simple optimization problem?
Minimize spend, maximize income/savings, optimize for freedom. done.

It should not be to minimize spend at all costs.  Does the law of diminishing returns not apply here?

Saving ~70% is saving ~70%.  You have 8.8 years to work, and then you are done.  A lovely tenure in the workforce.  Bravo.

Even post-FIRE, when one can no longer optimize the income/savings side of the equation, there is a point at which spending is reduced enough relative to stash size that there are negligible benefits. You've hit the magical 80/20 rule, ship it.

But I get it, even at a high absolute spend, one can and should focus their spend only on things that truly bring value. It’s notable to try to limit one's impact on the earth and reduce consumption just for consumption's sake. To question why society suggests you need A, B, and C to be deemed successful or to live a happy life. But it is also dangerous to take it to the extreme. You can only min/max this so much.

???

Didn't we cover this already in detail in this very thread that it's never ever been about cutting spending at all costs???

Didn't I write a bunch of really long posts about it?

You sure did . Did you happen to see anything else I mentioned?

Even polls like this help to highlight the race to the bottom mentality, no?
At some point during this optimization journey, I would think enough is enough.

Or maybe that’s the MMM mantra I missing. Enough is never enough.

With constant focus and consideration on  every dollar spent, total spend will always trend lower. Things that once brought value will no longer, and it will be cut. Where is the finish line? Surely is comes prior to the living out of a sprinter van on the beach phase?

And if for whatever reason that thing or hobby or lifestyle choice is a yacht, (gulp), and that person has honestly decided that it will bring them happiness (gulp), and they’ve made countless other sacrifices to pursue their passion of owning a yacht (gulp) well then, off to yachts-r-us.