New(er) cars suck

[Speedwagon]

I have a 98 Legacy that I bought in 2003. 310k on the clock and still going, though starting to show it's age. I also have an 87 Brat that I bought 8 years ago to play around with for $400. I can sell the Brat today for $3,000+, so I'm not losing money on that thing.

I've been thinking about getting a newer car, but... good lord they are all huge! Hell, a new Ford Fiesta(I kind of like the ST) is actually wider than my Legacy! Any Subaru newer than 2010 is out, since they are all a few inches wider than my Legacy. And I don't really want a wider car. Cars have gotten obese lately. Are there any small cars left(besides a Smart)?

[PDXTabs]

Honda Fit?
Chevy Aveo?
Toyota Yaris?

[Speedwagon]

I mean, a 2018 Honda Fit isn't WIDER than my Legacy... but it's not any smaller either. Which is a shame, considering it's supposed to be a small car.

[moof]

Like american waist lines, car tastes are for a larger “envelope”.

Add to that harsher safety requirements for side impact, offset crash survival, etc and you get plumped up cars.

The good news is they are cleaner running and safer than ever before.

[Speedwagon]

Yeah. Heavier too because of it. And while they are cleaner burning, they aren't necessarily more fuel efficient. People were getting 44mpg out of the CRX HF in '89. Imagine what they could do today with the same car, new tech, and old emissions standards. (while not sure, I kind of think a higher mpg is cleaner overall than a lower mpg+emissions)

[Kyle Schuant]

I have a Toyota Yaris. After 3 years, I still park it short because I forget how short the front is.

There are plenty of smaller ones out there.

[Fomerly known as something]

I'm not sure about width, but my 2015 Renegade is shorter than my 2000 Jetta was.

[slackmax]

I have a cute little 2009 Nissan Versa.  And the new ones look even smaller. EVen though I love the car, my Versa qualifies under 'new cars suck' because you have to remove the intake manifold just to change the ******* spark plugs. 

[Capt j-rod]

I run a tacoma for my company truck. They are bigger every time they re-design them. There is no more incentive for me to buy one next time due to the piss poor mileage. I can get a 1/2 ton full size that uses the same amount of fuel for nearly the same price. I assume AWD is on your wish list with the subies... Otherwise a Toyota Corolla is still a narrower car with a pretty bulletproof drive train. Every model is bigger it seems Rav 4, CRV, all are much larger vehicles.

[RetiredAt63]

With the side mirrors my 2010 Mazda 3 is as wide as I would ever want for parking in my garage.  I have no idea what the actual measurement is, but if I ever buy a new car while living in this house I will need to take a measuring tape with me!

[FIRE47]

Agreed - don't get me started on the trucks.

Everyone now needs a transport to drive their family around in and are terrible at driving and parking them.

[big_slacker]

I run a tacoma for my company truck. They are bigger every time they re-design them. There is no more incentive for me to buy one next time due to the piss poor mileage. I can get a 1/2 ton full size that uses the same amount of fuel for nearly the same price. I assume AWD is on your wish list with the subies... Otherwise a Toyota Corolla is still a narrower car with a pretty bulletproof drive train. Every model is bigger it seems Rav 4, CRV, all are much larger vehicles.

This, bugs the shit out of me. Almost no reason to buy a taco when an F150 get the same mpg (better freeway), tows more, more room. They're almost the same size.

Same with the 4runner, I test drove one looking for a family hauler/offroad vehicle. They're HOOOOOOOUGE. Can't imagine trying to take one down a tight trail or getting it turned around on one. :(

[scantee]

I think it is mostly nostalgia and selective thinking that makes us believe that cars were better and smaller in the past. I was a kid in the 80’s and remember many of the cars  were absolute boats compared to today’s cars. My parents owned a two-door Chrysler Imperial that was absolutely massive by today’s standards. And don’t forget the grocery go-getters of the 80’s: the original third row vehicle, one that offered a rear window view. And how about vans? Not minivans, conversion vans. My cousins’ had one of those beasts and its bloated girth puts today’s minivans to shame.

Today’s cars are safe, cleaner, better. Stylistically different? Yeah, and maybe in a way you don’t like, but overall far superior to the cars of the past.

[big_slacker]

I think it is mostly nostalgia and selective thinking that makes us believe that cars were better and smaller in the past. I was a kid in the 80’s and remember many of the cars  were absolute boats compared to today’s cars. My parents owned a two-door Chrysler Imperial that was absolutely massive by today’s standards. And don’t forget the grocery go-getters of the 80’s: the original third row vehicle, one that offered a rear window view. And how about vans? Not minivans, conversion vans. My cousins’ had one of those beasts and its bloated girth puts today’s minivans to shame.

Today’s cars are safe, cleaner, better. Stylistically different? Yeah, and maybe in a way you don’t like, but overall far superior to the cars of the past.

I don't think we're talking 70's or 80's. We're talking in the last 10 years. Look at the same models year over year:

'00 4 runner: 183″ L x 67-71″ W x 68-69″ H
'18 4runner: 190-191″ L x 76″ W x 72″ H

'00 Tacoma: 179-203″ L x 67″ W x 62-68″ H
'18 Tacoma: 212-226″ L x 74-75″ W x 71-72″ H

'00 Subaru Legacy 184-187″ L x 69″ W x 56-57″ H
'18 Subaru Legacy: 189″ L x 72″ W x 59″ H

'00 Honda Civic: 164-175″ L x 67″ W x 54-55″ H
'18 Honda Civic: 177-183″ L x 71″ W x 55-57″ H

[Clever Name]

Why do you care so much about a few inches' difference in the width of your car? If newer cars had inferior gas mileage due to their size I would understand the concern, but they don't... not even close.

Do you have an extremely narrow garage? Do you regularly drive down very tight off-road trails? Are you one of those people that's really bad at and/or nervous about parking between other cars?

[big_slacker]

Why do you care so much about a few inches' difference in the width of your car? If newer cars had inferior gas mileage due to their size I would understand the concern, but they don't... not even close.

Do you have an extremely narrow garage? Do you regularly drive down very tight off-road trails? Are you one of those people that's really bad at and/or nervous about parking between other cars?

I live in the Seattle area and a lot of the parking is really tight. I do drive on narrow offroad trails. I'm not nervous about parking between cars, I can back in and cram my big (but still smaller than a new 4runner) stupid offroad SUV into most spots but it makes it tight to get in/out, I worry about being rude and about people door dinging, etc. And height can be an issue in some parking garages as well.

So yes, those extra inches are causing some non-imaginary issues.

[scantee]

Why do you care so much about a few inches' difference in the width of your car? If newer cars had inferior gas mileage due to their size I would understand the concern, but they don't... not even close.

Do you have an extremely narrow garage? Do you regularly drive down very tight off-road trails? Are you one of those people that's really bad at and/or nervous about parking between other cars?

I live in the Seattle area and a lot of the parking is really tight. I do drive on narrow offroad trails. I'm not nervous about parking between cars, I can back in and cram my big (but still smaller than a new 4runner) stupid offroad SUV into most spots but it makes it tight to get in/out, I worry about being rude and about people door dinging, etc. And height can be an issue in some parking garages as well.

So yes, those extra inches are causing some non-imaginary issues.

What  personal vehicle can’t fit into a parking garage?!

I get it: I like small cars too. I have a Jetta and it’s great. The Golf I had previously was even better. It’s not as if there are no small car options for those of us out there that like them. That other people prefer large cars doesn’t bother me much. I care more about improving the gas mileage and cleanliness of car across the fleet, body style is a an ancillary concern, if one at all.

Most of the big car hate on this forum is sanctimony, an easy win  for people to feel like they are making superior choices. I gunderstand that impulse as well, but I also acknowledge that it is rooted in emotion rather than fact.

[Speedwagon]

Why do you care so much about a few inches' difference in the width of your car? If newer cars had inferior gas mileage due to their size I would understand the concern, but they don't... not even close.

Do you have an extremely narrow garage? Do you regularly drive down very tight off-road trails? Are you one of those people that's really bad at and/or nervous about parking between other cars?

They do get inferior fuel economy. If we look at Honda, for example... my midsize car(Subaru Legacy), which used to be the same size as a Honda Accord, but now is more similar in size to a Fit(even the Civic is 3 inches wider!):
A manual trans Accord 1.5 gets 30 combined, while a manual trans 1.5 Civic get 33.

I didn't engineer the car, so I can't say for certain, but size and weight would seem to matter here. But more to my point, is that there were larger cars for people to buy before. But they bought the smaller ones, complained they were too small, so companies made them fat. This is reflected in car reviews all the time, when people complain about things like back seat room in a Ford Fiesta. It's SUPPOSED to be a small car. You don't buy a Fiesta to take a family of 4 on a cross country journey. You buy it to commute to work in.

And again, in 1989, the CRX HF was getting 44mpg combined.

[Dave1442397]

Check out some of the Kei cars and Kei trucks that you can now import from Japan - https://www.rightdriveusa.com/location/usa/

[SC93]

Seems like this would be perfect for what you are looking for.

http://www.discovermymobility.com/store/scooters/shop-rider-scooter/flagship-scooter/index.html

Or this one is a little bigger.

http://www.discovermymobility.com/store/scooters/greetransporter/q2seat/index.html

[lbmustache]

Why do you care so much about a few inches' difference in the width of your car? If newer cars had inferior gas mileage due to their size I would understand the concern, but they don't... not even close.

Do you have an extremely narrow garage? Do you regularly drive down very tight off-road trails? Are you one of those people that's really bad at and/or nervous about parking between other cars?

They do get inferior fuel economy. If we look at Honda, for example... my midsize car(Subaru Legacy), which used to be the same size as a Honda Accord, but now is more similar in size to a Fit(even the Civic is 3 inches wider!):
A manual trans Accord 1.5 gets 30 combined, while a manual trans 1.5 Civic get 33.

And again, in 1989, the CRX HF was getting 44mpg combined.

Ok... and a 2018 Camry gets 34mpg combined, and the hybrid gets 52 combined. This car is probably triple the size and weight of the CRX. Your (manual?) Legacy gets 23 mpg combined, while a new Legacy (auto) gets 29, while being heavier and bigger.

Also we are at a point where the average auto transmission being used by Honda (CVT) is more efficient than a manual. The auto 1.5t Civic gets 36 combined.

Car efficiency has absolutely improved.

[daverobev]

It is a known that manufacturers gradually increase the size of a model name over time, and introduce a small car with a new name every so often.

This is because someone who had, say, a Civic when they were young have an emotional connection to that name, and will tend to rebuy - because they need something a little larger as they get older and, lo and behold, their beloved Civic *is* now just a little larger.

[Kyle Schuant]

Most of the big car hate on this forum is sanctimony, an easy win  for people to feel like they are making superior choices. I gunderstand that impulse as well, but I also acknowledge that it is rooted in emotion rather than fact.

Not entirely. Larger vehicles are harder to handle (this is why a truck license is a different one to a general driving license, but unfortunately there is no 4WD license), and get in the way of other vehicles. In traffic they are slower to get moving after a stop, and obscure the view of smaller vehicles waiting to turn. In parallel parking, there's less leeway if they park to one side of the space rather than bang in the middle, having 6" clearance each side rather than 12". And so on.

Studies have also shown that drivers of larger vehicles are more aggressive while driving, more likely to go through red lights, talk on their mobile phones while driving, speed, not wear a seatbelt and so on; they feel safer in the larger vehicles, sitting higher above the road, so drive more aggressively and recklessly. So their vehicles end up being more dangerous to the rest of us.

It's not entirely sanctimony, there are facts behind it. You don't drive a massive 4WD because you're community-minded.

[FIRE47]

Most of the big car hate on this forum is sanctimony, an easy win  for people to feel like they are making superior choices. I gunderstand that impulse as well, but I also acknowledge that it is rooted in emotion rather than fact.

Not entirely. Larger vehicles are harder to handle (this is why a truck license is a different one to a general driving license, but unfortunately there is no 4WD license), and get in the way of other vehicles. In traffic they are slower to get moving after a stop, and obscure the view of smaller vehicles waiting to turn. In parallel parking, there's less leeway if they park to one side of the space rather than bang in the middle, having 6" clearance each side rather than 12". And so on.

Studies have also shown that drivers of larger vehicles are more aggressive while driving, more likely to go through red lights, talk on their mobile phones while driving, speed, not wear a seatbelt and so on; they feel safer in the larger vehicles, sitting higher above the road, so drive more aggressively and recklessly. So their vehicles end up being more dangerous to the rest of us.

It's not entirely sanctimony, there are facts behind it. You don't drive a massive 4WD because you're community-minded.

Why would you need a license for 4WD? Generally I agree with your other points but wondering why in particular this one feature requires a special license?

[nick663]

Larger vehicles are slower to get moving from a stop?  Have you driven one?

0-60
2018 Honda Fit: 8.2 seconds
2016 Toyota Yaris:  10.2 seconds
vs.
2018 Ford Expedition:  5.7 seconds
2017 Chevy Tahoe:  7.0 Seconds

[The Guru]

Agreed - don't get me started on the trucks.

Everyone now needs a transport to drive their family around in and are terrible at driving and parking them.

Agreed. Last week I took a detour by the local shipyard to marvel at the size of the lake freighter in dry dock for winter maintenance. Later that week I was in my car in the parking lot of the local grocery when someone backed their pickup into the space next to me. I got the same sensation both times.

[big_slacker]

What  personal vehicle can’t fit into a parking garage?!

Most of the big car hate on this forum is sanctimony, an easy win  for people to feel like they are making superior choices. I gunderstand that impulse as well, but I also acknowledge that it is rooted in emotion rather than fact.

One with a lift and roof rack, see below. It makes it into many parking garages, but there are some low ones downtown I won't chance.

I don't want to get into a big debate about cars on MMM, but I also don't like to use too many absolute rules. What's better, a fuel efficient vehicle that you drive 6x a week 30 miles roundtrip, or a monster truck you drive 2-3x a week 8 miles but get to have experiences for you and your family like the attached pics?

The great thing is, we as adults get to decide. Even if sometimes people on the internet don't agree. :D

[PDXTabs]

I think that there has been a general trend to make vehicles shorter and wider (look at a 1983 Volvo 240 or 1993 Honda Accord Wagon, vs a 2017 Kia Soul). I believe that this lets them reduce total mass, which all things being equal helps with mileage?

[Kyle Schuant]

Why would you need a license for 4WD? Generally I agree with your other points but wondering why in particular this one feature requires a special license?

For the same reason you need a different license for a motorcycle or truck. They handle very differently. Their higher accident rate compared to smaller vehicles shows that some skills are lacking somewhere. When people join 4WD clubs - using the vehicle for what they were designed for, off-road driving - they spend a lot of time building their skills, and members of 4WD clubs have similar rates of accidents to the general public driving smaller cars.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Americans eat a lot of McDonald's. Cars and trucks have gotten a lot bigger in the United States. There's probably a connection there somewhere.

[Kyle Schuant]

In Australia, men in 4WDs have higher rates of obesity, but the women don't.

[big_slacker]

Why would you need a license for 4WD? Generally I agree with your other points but wondering why in particular this one feature requires a special license?

For the same reason you need a different license for a motorcycle or truck. They handle very differently. Their higher accident rate compared to smaller vehicles shows that some skills are lacking somewhere. When people join 4WD clubs - using the vehicle for what they were designed for, off-road driving - they spend a lot of time building their skills, and members of 4WD clubs have similar rates of accidents to the general public driving smaller cars.

So.... A true 4WD equipped SUV/Truck is actually a RWD vehicle until you engage 4WD. The way they handle has little or nothing to do with the 4WD system unless it's engaged which you should not be doing on the road under normal conditions. The reason they handle differently than say a RWD sedan is because they're a ladder frame (vs unibody), higher center of gravity, more weight and longer travel suspension.

The offroad skills those clubs practice deal with things like when to engage 4WD, when to use locking differentials, what angles you can get away with to not tip over, how fast or slow you need to be going based on trail conditions, how deep a body of water you can cross, how to get your vehicle or another unstuck and so on. Most of these are not applicable to road driving, I suspect their rate of road accidents is equal to the general driving  public because..... they're average road drivers.

FWIW I drive the FJ above and I'm not fat. Doing my part to tip the average back towards healthy. :D

[Clean Shaven]

OP could buy a motorcycle. Something like a Kawasaki KLR is cheap, goes anywhere, great MPG, fits in any parking space (or no space at all, on the sidewalk).

Since automotive safety updates over the last two decades are not important to OP, a motorcycle seems perfect.

[jlcnuke]

Why would you need a license for 4WD? Generally I agree with your other points but wondering why in particular this one feature requires a special license?

For the same reason you need a different license for a motorcycle or truck. They handle very differently. Their higher accident rate compared to smaller vehicles shows that some skills are lacking somewhere. When people join 4WD clubs - using the vehicle for what they were designed for, off-road driving - they spend a lot of time building their skills, and members of 4WD clubs have similar rates of accidents to the general public driving smaller cars.

Correlation =/= causation.

[Speedwagon]

OP could buy a motorcycle. Something like a Kawasaki KLR is cheap, goes anywhere, great MPG, fits in any parking space (or no space at all, on the sidewalk).

Since automotive safety updates over the last two decades are not important to OP, a motorcycle seems perfect.

I used to own one. They aren't exactly cheap to maintain. And don't lend themselves to Colorado winters.

Also, you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on wrong assumptions.

[Speedwagon]

It is a known that manufacturers gradually increase the size of a model name over time, and introduce a small car with a new name every so often.

This is because someone who had, say, a Civic when they were young have an emotional connection to that name, and will tend to rebuy - because they need something a little larger as they get older and, lo and behold, their beloved Civic *is* now just a little larger.

Interesting point.

[Speedwagon]

Why do you care so much about a few inches' difference in the width of your car? If newer cars had inferior gas mileage due to their size I would understand the concern, but they don't... not even close.

Do you have an extremely narrow garage? Do you regularly drive down very tight off-road trails? Are you one of those people that's really bad at and/or nervous about parking between other cars?

They do get inferior fuel economy. If we look at Honda, for example... my midsize car(Subaru Legacy), which used to be the same size as a Honda Accord, but now is more similar in size to a Fit(even the Civic is 3 inches wider!):
A manual trans Accord 1.5 gets 30 combined, while a manual trans 1.5 Civic get 33.

And again, in 1989, the CRX HF was getting 44mpg combined.

Ok... and a 2018 Camry gets 34mpg combined, and the hybrid gets 52 combined. This car is probably triple the size and weight of the CRX. Your (manual?) Legacy gets 23 mpg combined, while a new Legacy (auto) gets 29, while being heavier and bigger.

Also we are at a point where the average auto transmission being used by Honda (CVT) is more efficient than a manual. The auto 1.5t Civic gets 36 combined.

Car efficiency has absolutely improved.

I'm not saying it hasn't improved. Across the board, it absolutely has.

My point was, that they get inferior fuel economy than if they had kept the vehicle size the same.  And while a CVT is more efficient, I can't get over that rubber band feel. Coming from a manual trans car, there is a giant gap between the feel of the two.

[dd564]

I'm actually a big fan of cars.
I have a commuter car, a pickup, and the wife has an SUV.
The best of which in my opinion is the pickup. 

I use the pickup to support my "hobby / 2nd stream of income" of repairing houses.
It's an essential tool to get me transitioned out of my job someday.

[Clean Shaven]

OP could buy a motorcycle. Something like a Kawasaki KLR is cheap, goes anywhere, great MPG, fits in any parking space (or no space at all, on the sidewalk).

Since automotive safety updates over the last two decades are not important to OP, a motorcycle seems perfect.

I used to own one. They aren't exactly cheap to maintain. And don't lend themselves to Colorado winters.

Also, you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on wrong assumptions.

OK, I change my recommendation to a Ford Excursion. Get the gas V10 because diesel is smelly.

Canyonero!

[use2betrix]

My 1999 v6 Camry gets 24mpg on average. Certainly isn’t killing it.. yeah, it is a v6 but still. I’m sure new Camrys have more power with more mpg.

[Harrington]

Bestcar I ever owned is my 2012 Fiat 500. Just passed 100,000 miles today with no issues.

[Speedwagon]

OP could buy a motorcycle. Something like a Kawasaki KLR is cheap, goes anywhere, great MPG, fits in any parking space (or no space at all, on the sidewalk).

Since automotive safety updates over the last two decades are not important to OP, a motorcycle seems perfect.

I used to own one. They aren't exactly cheap to maintain. And don't lend themselves to Colorado winters.

Also, you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on wrong assumptions.

OK, I change my recommendation to a Ford Excursion. Get the gas V10 because diesel is smelly.

Canyonero!

... I own a V10 E350 cargo

[Speedwagon]

Bestcar I ever owned is my 2012 Fiat 500. Just passed 100,000 miles today with no issues.

I'm looking at getting a Fiesta now. Keeping it small.

[Clean Shaven]

OP could buy a motorcycle. Something like a Kawasaki KLR is cheap, goes anywhere, great MPG, fits in any parking space (or no space at all, on the sidewalk).

Since automotive safety updates over the last two decades are not important to OP, a motorcycle seems perfect.

I used to own one. They aren't exactly cheap to maintain. And don't lend themselves to Colorado winters.

Also, you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on wrong assumptions.

OK, I change my recommendation to a Ford Excursion. Get the gas V10 because diesel is smelly.

Canyonero!

... I own a V10 E350 cargo

That'll do!

[PDXTabs]

@Clean Shaven,

If you are going to make a graphic about 'Murica, it probably shouldn't have firearms from Belgium and Israel with soviet influence in the design.

[Clean Shaven]

I spent a lot of time on that Google image search.

[Kyle Schuant]

Correlation =/= causation.

"Just because they kill themselves and others with the things more often doesn't mean they need lessons on how to use it safely!"

Now I know I'm talking to an American.

[jlcnuke]

Correlation =/= causation.

"Just because they kill themselves and others with the things more often doesn't mean they need lessons on how to use it safely!"

Now I know I'm talking to an American.

"Asserts that it's the vehicle itself that results in higher accident rates, provides no proof to back up that claim, attempts to insult others for pointing that out to them"....

Ya know, I was going to explain a number of other factors that could be involved, but since you seem to think calling someone an American is an insult (and feel like insulting people here), you have a great day and enjoy believing whatever you'd like.  I don't need to deal with people like you.

[YttriumNitrate]

Back in 2013, I was shopping for a little car to make a long daily highway commute (500+ miles a week). The Chevy Spark and the Mitsubishi Mirage were the two top contenders, and I ended up going with the Mirage and easily topped 50 MPG on the highway. Also, the turning radius made it great for zipping around parking garages. Although the Smart is small, I really disliked that it needs premium gas and the lack of a second row of seats.

I switched from a Chevy S10 to the Mirage, and if the small Japanese / South American / European trucks were available in the US, I definitely would have been considering one of them. Damn chicken tax...

[big_slacker]

Correlation =/= causation.

"Just because they kill themselves and others with the things more often doesn't mean they need lessons on how to use it safely!"

Now I know I'm talking to an American.

"Asserts that it's the vehicle itself that results in higher accident rates, provides no proof to back up that claim, attempts to insult others for pointing that out to them"....

Ya know, I was going to explain a number of other factors that could be involved, but since you seem to think calling someone an American is an insult (and feel like insulting people here), you have a great day and enjoy believing whatever you'd like.  I don't need to deal with people like you.

Notice how he skipped by my post explaining that the training and practice of 4wd clubs he brought up doesn't apply to road driving and went straight to insulting an entire country. Trolls gonna troll, you have the correct response.