Nerds vs Battlers

[Leisured]

The AntiMustachian Wall of Shame is full of horror stories of financial incompetence. Posters on MMM wonder about the reasons for this financial incompetence, and I suggest that many non mustachians regard keeping a budget and investing money as ‘nerd’ behaviour, and they are desperate to avoid being seen as nerds.

Consider the posts on Investor Alley, and most non mustachians would roll their eyes at what they would see as an avalanche of nerdish posts and thoughts. Some posts on Investor Alley even include calculations!

I am Australian, and have described elsewhere the Australian cult of the Battler. Battlers are in almost permanent financial trouble, often self-inflicted, and Battlers Do It Tough, and Live on Struggle Street. I understand that the cult of the Battler seems not to exist in American society, but the cult of Living from Payday to Payday is much the same thing.

If a Battler were to keep a budget, have a $10K emergency account, and invest, he would become a financial Nerd, and would eventually leave the noble ranks of the Battlers. That will not do. Living from payday to payday confers bragging rights when the Battler is hit by an unexpected expense. What matters is how you bear up in the face of adversity, and it does not matter if you create your own adversity.

Living from payday to payday is a way of life. Our Stone Age ancestors lived this way for vast stretches of time. Australian aborigines lived this way until about 60 or 70 years ago, and regarded the landscape as a sparsely stocked supermarket. The tribe had to walk the landscape, and this practice was known as ‘going walkabout’. They lived from day to day, had no way of storing food, and had to be strong and stoic when times were hard.

I strongly recommend an Australian movie, available on Youtube, ‘Ten Canoes’, set in the indeterminate past, long before white settlement. Think of it as a soap opera of tribal life in the Northern Territory of Australia. Do not confuse the movie with an inferior documentary called ‘Twelve Canoes’. 

It is important to understand that if a Battler were to become a financial Nerd, he or she would become a different person, so I do not expect Battlers, or the American version of them, to become Nerds in large numbers.

[prof61820]

It may be easier to be a "battler" in Australia because you have a better safety net system for the middle class (universal healthcare and retirement) than in the United State .  Because there is far less economic security in the United States, if someone flirts with being a "battler" in the US, their likelihood of winding up in the poor house (and permanently out of the middle class) is much greater so few folks flirt with the concept.  While reducing "battlerism" may be a good thing, the lack of economic security is a big problem in the U.S.

[Dr. Doom]

It is important to understand that if a Battler were to become a financial Nerd, he or she would become a different person, so I do not expect Battlers, or the American version of them, to become Nerds in large numbers.

I interpret the Battlers to be Guardian-types on the Keirsey Temperament scale.  I did some research and wrote a blog post about pretty much this same thing a few months ago:  Guardians don't want to be anything other than what they are because they fear being ostracized more than anything else.  It's super important to be normal, to follow the crowd, to be accepted -- this is much, much more important than freedom of any sort to these personality types.  If being normal involves being in debt and being part of the payday to PD crowd, so be it.   They see this as default human behavior, which makes it completely Right and Accepted, not to be seriously questioned.  Long story short, completely agree with the main points of your post.

BTW, guardians make the vast majority of people, percentage wise.  Nerds (AKA "Rationals") are only at around 12%. 

There I go, listing a percentage... I suppose that identifies what type I am...

[Kaminoge]

It may be easier to be a "battler" in Australia because you have a better safety net system for the middle class (universal healthcare and retirement) than in the United State .

Don't worry, our current Prime Minister will have this fixed fairly shortly. Along with ensuring we end up with American style student loans. Something to aspire to.

[prof61820]

Don't worry, our current Prime Minister will have this fixed fairly shortly. Along with ensuring we end up with American style student loans. Something to aspire to.

How the else will Australia's billionaires be able to compete against other global money hoarders if you're not slashing middle class benefits to fund their tax cuts to allow them to hoard more?

[deborah]

I am Australian, and have described elsewhere the Australian cult of the Battler. Battlers are in almost permanent financial trouble, often self-inflicted, and Battlers Do It Tough, and Live on Struggle Street. I understand that the cult of the Battler seems not to exist in American society, but the cult of Living from Payday to Payday is much the same thing.

If a Battler were to keep a budget, have a $10K emergency account, and invest, he would become a financial Nerd, and would eventually leave the noble ranks of the Battlers. That will not do. Living from payday to payday confers bragging rights when the Battler is hit by an unexpected expense. What matters is how you bear up in the face of adversity, and it does not matter if you create your own adversity.

Part of the cult of Battlers is that the adversity is sudden, unforeseen, and overwhelming. I don't agree with the negative parts of your account. For instance, the woman in the news today who had her four children in car accidents (the first two died, the third was badly injured in a separate accident, and the fourth has severe life long brain damage in a third accident) is definitely a battler. The farmer who looses his sheep to a drought, then looses them again a few years later to a flood is the classic battler.

A recent prime minister tried to change the battler into anyone, but I don't think that has really caught on.

[FireYourJob]

It may be easier to be a "battler" in Australia because you have a better safety net system for the middle class (universal healthcare and retirement) than in the United State .

Don't worry, our current Prime Minister will have this fixed fairly shortly. Along with ensuring we end up with American style student loans. Something to aspire to.

Is this sarcasm?  Aspiring to American style studen loan debt?  As the government has subsidized education more and more, it's done little more than run up the price of an education for which most students get liberal arts degrees with little hope of paying off said loans in less than 10-15 years, a crucial time when they should be putting dollar-soldiers to work earning them self created security, not government funded dependency.

[NumberJohnny5]

Guardians don't want to be anything other than what they are because they fear being ostracized more than anything else.  It's super important to be normal, to follow the crowd, to be accepted -- this is much, much more important than freedom of any sort to these personality types.  If being normal involves being in debt and being part of the payday to PD crowd, so be it.

Many here feel the same way. Why else would we get such advice as "well, you don't have to tell him that you could afford to buy that car in cash, just say you're looking at something cheap and could afford a small down payment", or pretend they have a mortgage payment when they don't, etc.?

If we had been financially ignorant, my wife's sister would not have given her (and our kids) the silent treatment for over a year, and I'd possibly still be on speaking terms with my dad's side of the family (do still speak to my full-brother, but that's probably because he's also on my mom's side of the family). These fallings-out didn't start due to us begging them for money and not repaying...it was because we either had money (because we didn't spend it all...their income was likely near ours) or because we're not financial dodo-heads. I'm not saying it's smart to be dumb with money...just saying it may not be as simple as we'd like it to be.

[Leisured]

Thank your Dr. Doom for your thoughtful reply. I had not thought that personality type can override intelligence. I will investigate this matter further. You mentioned that you have blogged on this matter, but I cannot find any reference to such a blog on MMM. I suspect that most people are likely to be a mixture of at least two personality types.

Your remarks tie in with my description of our Stone Age ancestors, who for vast lengths of prehistory lived from day to day because they had no choice. This suggests evolutionary selection in the past for people who could accept living from day to day, or nowadays, from payday to payday.

Thankyou prof61820 for suggesting that Australians can risk the Battler way of life because they know they have a social safety net. I had not thought about that possibility.

Deborah, I did not mean to suggest that all the problems suffered by Battlers were self-inflicted. I suggested that their troubles are ‘often’ self-inflicted. Of course a grazier in a drought is a genuine Battler. I have watched these matters for fifty years, and living standards are much higher now than in the past, so there is less excuse for people to be Battlers now. A favourite ploy in the past, and even now, is to have a large family, which is a quick move to the Battler way of life.

I have said it before, but I will say it again; early last year, the Australian Fed Government, Labor at the time (socialist), was debating whether to reduce what we know as ‘middle class welfare’, that is family benefits which are available to couples on high incomes. A Labor politician from a western Sydney seat publicly opposed these proposed reductions on the grounds that that many of his constituents had incomes of $120K, (about US$110K), but they were still Battlers. He was serious, and the press had a field day. That’s is the point I am making; for many Australians being a Battler is a badge of pride and something to aspire to.

Recently in Australia we buried a prominent politician, Neville Wran, who was born working class but got a degree in law and worked his way up to being Premier of NSW. He famously declared that the best thing about being working class was getting out of it. This is anti-Battler, and I accept that it is not practical for everybody.

[deborah]

A Labor politician from a western Sydney seat publicly opposed these proposed reductions on the grounds that that many of his constituents had incomes of $120K, (about US$110K), but they were still Battlers. He was serious, and the press had a field day.

I think the quote was something like "I know families in Western Sydney on $250k who are doing it tough" - and the press was quite right to have a field day! Politicians have had such enormous pay rises that they don't have any idea of the average wage.

[Leisured]

Thank you for introducing me to the Kiersey Temperament Scale, Dr. Doom. I have found out more about the Scale, and found it interesting, and perhaps useful, but it seems not to capture all human qualities. Since about 1950, the Rationals, who think and analyse, have become extremely important to modern society, and Sensing, Feeling people are emerging as social liabilities when these people are faced with analysing some social or political matter. I know from my own experience that there are people who are just plain irrational, and I don’t know if this quality can be detected by a temperament test. There are people who are irrational and destructive, such as Al Qaeda, the Taliban or Boko Haram. Have convicted criminals been given temperament tests, and if so, do criminals have a distinctive temperament?

Use the link below to discover your temperament:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp