Negative Psychological Impacts of Mustchian Thinking?

[Vilgan]

Hi all,

Like most here, I really like the points that MMM makes in most of his posts. I've always been frugal, but as I read more and looked at my own choices I realized I had some blind spots. I also had no clue what the path to early retirement looked like other than a very vague desire to retire sooner rather than later.

Since reading all of his blog posts and reading and responding on the forums occasionally, I feel like I'm in a much better spot financially and I have a plan for the future. Instead of retiring in my 50s, I'm on track to retire in my early 40s and that's with a bit of a late start since I'm already partway through my 30s. I feel like the path is clear, I know what I need to do now I just need to go about doing it.

However, I continue to read his posts, engage on these forums, and look at Mint and plan for the future I've noticed a few behaviors that I'm not sure are positive ones. Specifically:

1) I check Mint and think about the next 10 years way too much. Until I removed my Mint bookmark, I was sometimes checking 4-5 times a day. What good does this do? I'm fretting about a future that will take years to get to with time/effort that could be spent on the here and now.
2) I feel I'm less generous than I could be. My first priority is socking away X dollars per year into investments and then I've been donating what feels like a meager amount that is all I can spare if I want to hit my savings goals. If I had never read MMM and felt like all this money was extra, I'd probably be donating in $1000 chunks or more instead of $100 or $200 chunks. I look at people that I consider to be good human beings and it feels like they are naturally more generous than I am.
3) I think I sometimes  take cost cutting too far and that it sometimes does have a negative impact on my happiness in the here and now. I realize MMM has written a few posts on the subject, but it is sometimes easier said than done. I wince at the cost of wine at a restaurant or think for a very long time before making a purchase that seems optional.

On the whole I feel like reading MMM and taking a lot of what he has to say to heart is a net positive thing, especially if you weren't terribly frugal to begin with. But it seems like I've swung a bit far in the other direction to the point where I feel like it may be having a (minimally) negative impact in a few ways and I need to figure out how to remove the negatives while keeping the positive.

Has anyone else noticed anything like this? Any insight on handling it?

Thanks!

[innerscorecard]

For me the hardest thing is the decreased camaraderie with others in the real world. When I socialize with others without similar values, I have pretend to be interested in them, Dale Carnegie style. That's exhausting. In the end it leads to me simply being more detached from other people in this world.

[steveo]

I don't really see any negative impacts for myself personally. I do get a little frustrated with my wife when she doesn't automatically agree with me that we should get rid of one of our 2 cars within the next 10 years and only drive a small car irregularly however I'm right and she is wrong.

[Dicey]

Instead of "Mint" you could insert "Facebook" or "Twitter" or "Reddit"  or whatever. It's all about self discipline.

For charity, simply include it in your budget. If you have a line item for a specific amount, you can spend it and consider it a goal achieved. If you learn to live with fewer shiny things, you will have more money left over. You can save money for your future and support charities of your choice. Win-win.

For your last point, once you discern what truly makes you happy, it's easier to say no to the things that don't. It takes time and practice, but eventually it becomes second nature.

Hope this helps.

[marty998]

I don't really see any negative impacts for myself personally. I do get a little frustrated with my wife when she doesn't automatically agree with me that we should get rid of one of our 2 cars within the next 10 years and only drive a small car irregularly however I'm right and she is wrong.

Please tell her that, then report back if you have survived with your testicles still intact.

[steveo]

I don't really see any negative impacts for myself personally. I do get a little frustrated with my wife when she doesn't automatically agree with me that we should get rid of one of our 2 cars within the next 10 years and only drive a small car irregularly however I'm right and she is wrong.

Please tell her that, then report back if you have survived with your testicles still intact.

I do. She then tells me that she is right and I'm wrong. Then we start yelling. I love being married.

[act0fgod]

MMM may not think this is a negative thing but any purchase pains my wife and I.  Even things we clearly want we question the desire/need/want.  We over-research, trying to find the best option.  We spend way more time trying to find things than we should to ensure we are making a purchase that is good value.  We can't ever make up our minds because in the crazy consumer world there are a million different options. 

I'm thin and really should eat more and healthier but don't love to eat like most people so often times go with the cheapest and easiest food (this has psychological impacts and physical impacts).

There are probably other things but that's my first thoughts.

[Gray Matter]

In addition to the benefits, I have found some negative side effects. 

• I get more frustrated with my husband over his "unnecessary" purchases.
• I get more stressed out over entertaining (something I love to do).
• I am less resilient when things go wrong (car needs repairs, radiator leaks through kitchen ceiling)--I used to shrug these things off and just be grateful I had the money to pay for them, and now they make me feel sick to my stomach.
• I enjoy travel less, because of the expense.
• I find work less tolerable, because it seems more optional or short-term.
• I am less generous (giving to others--charitable or gift-wise).

I will be honest that the jury is still out for me as to whether there has been a net positive or net negative psychological effect.  I think for people who start with significant debt, or who can't ever seem to get ahead, there is a sense of hopelessness, helplessness, and general stress around finances.  When I found MMM, we were in pretty good shape financially.  Sure, we were spendy, but still well within our means.  Our only debt was our mortgage (2.95%), we had decent retirement, college, and emergency fund savings, and our savings rate was between 30-40%.  In general, the stress I felt around finances was very low then, and now it's higher because my expectations have changed.

There are a few things I'm doing to mitigate this.  I have changed my mantra from, "spend as little as possible" to "spend on the important things" and that helps a lot.  I have also built in quite a large cushion that is not allocated to monthly expenses/specific categories or to savings, so I don't sweat the small stuff.  Also, while I don't know that I've experienced short-term psychological benefit from MMM, the benefit when I retire 10-15 years earlier than previously planned will be significant.

[Romlo]

Hi,

I understand what you describe.

I also enjoy less traveling (expense) or offering gifts.
I am sometimes obsessed with saving as much as possible, without any formal objective yet.

I do keep in mind that money gives me freedom, but I feel there is a possibility that I might become prisoner of that money, due to me not being satisfied it the stash does not grow fast enough or else.

Also, I have noted an aversion to start dating again, for the expense it could incur. It seems to be a rational thinking, but will this bring me happiness? Will my thinking change? Time will tell.

Looking forward to other people's stories!




 

[gt7152b]

I've always spent alot of time debating over purchases but now I just find fewer justifications to tip me in favor of spending. I think that's a positive in my case but I can see how this can be stressful to others. I think you should look at each purchase sitting on one side of a scale and how much freedom you can get with the money spent on the other side. If that item is more important than the slice of freedom it will tip the scales and you should buy it guilt free. Always re- evaluate your purchase later, not to make yourself feel guilty but to help guide you on future spending. You can use re- evaluation of past purchases to help you decide too.

I think the biggest negative impact for me is the change in my attitude towards work. I've always gone through moments of love and hate for my job but the bad times were easier to shrug off in the past because it just seemed mandatory to suck it up for another decade or more. Now that I see I'm much closer to work being optional it makes it harder to hunker down on the bad days. The thing I forget sometimes though is that this also brings less stress to my life. It's like a double edged sword in that there is less stress but also a general feeling that my work has little purpose. I'm not sure which is worse but I sure do like the stress being gone.

[Shamantha]

I recognise this, especially point 1. I started paying off my mortgage in 2012, after I broke up with my partner and took on the house and full mortgage (interest-only mortgage with nothing payed off on the principal).  Getting the monthly interest payments down was the key driver, as I would have a major problem should I become unemployed (unemployment benefit would not even cover my mortgage payments, let alone any other costs of living). This got me interested in living without a mortgage, I am planning for 2018 to have no or, worst case, a very small, low interest, mortgage left. Since last year this has lead me websites on early retirement, and I can't seem to stop checking Excel spreadsheets, creating 10 year plans, creating different scenarios. It is getting to be a bit of an obsession and one I can't share with most friends (we Dutch are pretty reluctant to discuss finances anyway). I can happily gaze at my mother-of-all-Excel-sheets for an hour, and think up new ways of fine-tuning. I do not want money to play such an important role in my life, but since a year or so it has become very, very important.

What I do about it? Limit myself to only update the spreadsheet once a month. Not allowing myself to start a blog on this. Not allowing myself to spend all my time on forums and blogs on this subject (I should NOT have created an account here... :-)) Force myself to just occasionally spend money on things I do not really need but which make me happy anyway.

I think this is a transitional period, I see it a bit as being in love. Such a lot of new things to explore, the possibilities are endless, a new future awaits! The butterflies should fade a bit in the next year I hope. Unlike you Vilgan, who knows the route and only has to implement, I am still exploring my options, I hope everything settles down a bit if I have a clearer view.

[OutBy40]

My advice is simple: The name of the game is progress, not perfection.  Yes, checking Mint 4 or 5 times a day probably means that you have become obsessed over your goal to retire early, and an obsession - as you are rightly realizing - is often times not helpful in your drive towards your retirement.

I think of it this way.  If I can honestly tell myself that I'm doing the very best that I can to retire by 40 (and I can do that every day), then I'm satisfied with how things are going.  Sometimes, bigger purchases happen.  But, that's fine.  In a typical American's lifestyle, these big purchases tend to happen all the time.  But for us, maybe once in a while, at best.  It happens.  It always will happen, and there is nothing that you or I can do to prevent that from happening.  Minimize unnecessary big purchases as much as you can and move on.  That's all that you can do.

My wife and I began the drive towards early retirement last year.  We're saving quite a bit now, but we're not perfect either.  For example, we accepted an invitation to vacation with a friend of ours in San Francisco for his 30th birthday later this month.  This'll cost us HUNDREDS of dollars that we wouldn't otherwise have spent.  Do we like it?  Not especially.  But, this happen.  It's life.  Even with this added expense, I an 100% confident that these individual weaknesses that we go through every year will not derail us from retirement before I'm 40.

Remember...progress, not perfection.

Like you, I enjoy a nice glass of wine every now and then.  Since we made the decision to retire early, my wife and I often enjoy a glass at home either before or after our restaurant dining experience.  But sometimes, glasses of wine actually at dinner happen.  They are more rare now, but they happen from time to time.  No big deal.  Maybe once or twice a month.  This won't kill us, and the added happiness that it brings us is worth the additional $20 or $30 when the bill comes.

If you drive yourself crazy pursuing your goal to retire early, then you probably won't be very happy after you eventually retire (because you won't want to spend the money that you tried so hard to save over the past couple decades).  Relax, think positively and enjoy the experience.  Don't sweat the small stuff in life and understand that you need to do what's in YOUR best interest.  If that means donating less, then donate less.  If that means cutting your wine at dinner to once or twice a month instead of every night, do it. 

But when unexpected purchases happen, that's fine - you have the money.  Even optional expenses every now and then - if those purchase truly make you happy, then consider some of them.  It might make the journey a hell of a lot more pleasant for you, which will probably mean you'll be much more prepared to actually hit your retirement goal.

[2ndTimer]

Maybe because I am naturally pretty mustachian I haven't noticed negative impact on me.  I do notice it with the Hub a little.  For example, at our Christmas camp out he desperately wanted coffee but was depriving himself because we had broken our stove and would have to go to a coffee shop for it.  Fortunately, I noticed and insisted we go before he died of it.

I attribute it to the difference in our geographical backgrounds.  His family is quintessential New England, suffering is good for me.  Mine is quintessential Midwestern, happiness is good for me.   

[Dr. Doom]

I've very nearly completed the journey (April 2015 quit date) and, looking back over the last 11 years or so, yes, I've gone through many of the things you've mentioned.

• When things aren't going well at work, I tend to deal with it by telling myself that hey, I'll be done with this in a few years and 'future me' will be happy that I've gutted it out.  There have been a few periods where I focused too much on 'future me' and too little on 'current me.' 
• I went through a phase 6 years ago where I checked accounts too much.  I had to notice the behavior and correct it in order to put a stop to it.  I set goals for myself (e.g. I will NOT check Vanguard this month -- there's no point!) and forced myself to comply.  It's no different than weaning yourself off of any other compulsive behavior.
• Charitable giving went down for several years until I hit the 300K liquid assets mark (an arbitrarily defined personal goalpost, to be sure.)  After that I settled on an annual giving number that worked for me and I've been hitting it ever since.  I've since built this donation amount into my FIRE number.
• I also at times took cost cutting too far.  Eventually I realized that it meant that my yearly spending targets were lower than they should be for me and I therefore raised my FIRE number accordingly.  If you are feeling squeezed, maybe you should re-evaluate things? 

It might be helpful to remind yourself that this is not a competition.  You don't get a prize by hitting FI a year earlier than your initial target.  Your accumulation-phase life must be a life worth living, something you feel happy and satisfied with.  If you are failing on certain goals (e.g. charitable giving, or a social agenda that might cost a bit) I would urge you to re-evaluate and loosen things up in specific areas that give you bang-for-the-buck.  You are alive RIGHT NOW.  Enjoy it - don't completely defer your life.

A few negatives you haven't mentioned:

- Being overly critical of others who don't share the same values or path. 
Example:  A friend talks about buying a 5K guitar (to add to his collection of already-awesome guitars).  In the past, my instinct would be to kick him in the groin and tell him THAT's why he's never going to retire.  Now I just ask him about the guitar -- what makes it special?  Why does he want it?  Will he play Back in Black at volume 11 for me if he gets it?
I've worked hard to calm these thoughts down and not worry about finances when I'm spending time with others.  Acceptance of our differences is a big part of the human experience.  If you hang around the forums too much you might start to feel like it's "totally normal and OK" for you to look down on other people for their own spending choices.  It's not, IMO.

- Noticing, perhaps first and foremost, the spending choices of people.  This is sort of a limiting view of the world.
Example:  You're in the checkout aisle of the grocery store.  A couple in front of you has a carriage packed with expensive stuff that isn't even healthy:  prepared meals from the frozen food section, chips and dip, fancy-pants icecream pints, lots of items that aren't bought in bulk.  During your 5 minute wait for checkout service, you might just be thinking:  Oh my god, these people are morons!  Their monthly grocery bill must be 1K+. And you might do this every single time you go to a store.  If you're always thinking about financial habits,and practically nothing else, you're missing out on lots of other things to pay attention to, like the color of the tiles on the floor or the adorable kid hopping up and down in the line next to you or the surprisingly upbeat cashier who is making eye contact with customers and chirping friendly comments to customers despite getting paid almost nothing.

Being on the FIRE path is supposed to enable a better life.  It's supposed to "free" you to do and think about what you want.

If instead, all you think about is money, you're entering a different kind of slavery, one that involves a prison, and your mind.  Not good. 

It takes time and awareness to adjust your thought patterns.  I have personally worked hard to maintain friendships with people who don't give a crap about my financial choices and life.  This has occasionally meant spending money to do things with them that I wouldn't naturally do.  And I have come to value the fact that they take me out of my comfort zone from time to time, even if it does mean going out to eat more than I would like, or maybe ordering that dessert to split with them.  Or registering for a road race to run with a few friends even though running is a completely free activity and I shouldn't have to pay for it.  We all have things we spend money on that make us happy.  I've found that social events are it for me.

So what if my FIRE number went up in the process?  Eventually I came to grips with the fact that I wanted both -- a so-called fairly normal social life as well as freedom from work.

Incidentally, this attitude has also made the work grind easier to bear for me.  Forcing myself to construct a life that I'm *currently* happy with -- even though I'm continuing to report to the office -- has resulted in many shifts in my work-style that have made the days more bearable and sometimes even fun.  I push back on stupid projects and dates.  I kill time by shooting the breeze with co-workers more.  I don't get all that stressed when things don't go well.  I now accept work for what it is (mostly, a monumental waste of time) and I've thus adapted myself to it instead of putting up a continual fight. 

Right now, for example, I'm posting on MMM instead of working on projects that I know need my attention.  I'll get to them... eventually.  :)

One more comment on the work thing. 
My personal observation is that FU money makes work easier.  "Hey, I can quit anytime and live for a while.  Great.  I feel much less anxious about everything now."
But FI money makes work harder.  "What the hell am I continuing to work for?  Why am I still hanging around here?"
The negative here is that if you don't really love your job, it becomes very difficult to stay once you're officially FI.  Your logical mind will be urging you to move on to the next phase of your life. 

[golden1]

In addition to the benefits, I have found some negative side effects. 
I get more frustrated with my husband over his "unnecessary" purchases.
I get more stressed out over entertaining (something I love to do).
I am less resilient when things go wrong (car needs repairs, radiator leaks through kitchen ceiling)--I used to shrug these things off and just be grateful I had the money to pay for them, and now they make me feel sick to my stomach.
I enjoy travel less, because of the expense.
I find work less tolerable, because it seems more optional or short-term.
I am less generous (giving to others--charitable or gift-wise).

I will be honest that the jury is still out for me as to whether there has been a net positive or net negative psychological effect.  I think for people who start with significant debt, or who can't ever seem to get ahead, there is a sense of hopelessness, helplessness, and general stress around finances.  When I found MMM, we were in pretty good shape financially.  Sure, we were spendy, but still well within our means.  Our only debt was our mortgage (2.95%), we had decent retirement, college, and emergency fund savings, and our savings rate was between 30-40%.  In general, the stress I felt around finances was very low then, and now it's higher because my expectations have changed.

There are a few things I'm doing to mitigate this.  I have changed my mantra from, "spend as little as possible" to "spend on the important things" and that helps a lot.  I have also built in quite a large cushion that is not allocated to monthly expenses/specific categories or to savings, so I don't sweat the small stuff.  Also, while I don't know that I've experienced short-term psychological benefit from MMM, the benefit when I retire 10-15 years earlier than previously planned will be significant.

+1

Once you get out of the hair on fire stage, I think there is a danger of the perfect being the enemy of the good.  The idea is to get your financial life in balance, and if your financial behaviors aren't aligning with your values, to the point where you are excessively frugal, then it is time to really sit and think about why that is.  You don't need to start spending like crazy again, but decide if what you are doing is really for the right reasons.  I am with Gray Matter - I am taking a more moderate goal of retiring in 10-15 years, or maybe just having the freedom to go part time. 

[golden1]

Dr. Doom - I loved your post!  Thank you for sharing that - it should be stickied to the top of the forums IMO. 

We make our own prisons, don't we?  Whether it is work, or living by values that aren't your own, or by constantly judging others instead of just living your life.

[Pigeon]

One stray thought about the charitable giving, is how about donating more of your time?  We support our local regional food bank financially and haven't really changed that.  But we've also started volunteering on weekends to sort their bulk donations from grocery chains into usable boxes for the food pantries the food bank services.  It is fairly strenuous physical labor in a cold  room.  But I can't believe how much enjoyment it brings me and it helps the food bank keep down costs.

[lizzie]

I also loved Dr. Doom's post---thanks for taking the time to share your insights.

[Philociraptor]

I too am obsessed with FI. I check Mint as soon as I wake up, again around lunchtime, and once more before bed. Every little purchase that I view as unnecessary hurts to make, such as decorations for the house and going out to eat/drink. I love having people over, but don't love how much it costs to provide food and drink. Work is mentally draining, especially when I don't do much.

There are positives though. While we don't give to charity, we have started putting away money each month for gift giving. This has made it so that money isn't a big deal come Christmas-time. Same thing for vacation. We previously didn't save for these and would have just charged them and paid them off as quickly as possible.

I definitely feel more psychic pain when an unexpected expense appears than before MMM, but I think that's just part of it.

[Luck12]

For me the hardest thing is the decreased camaraderie with others in the real world. When I socialize with others without similar values, I have pretend to be interested in them, Dale Carnegie style. That's exhausting. In the end it leads to me simply being more detached from other people in this world.

+1.  I experienced this at a dinner party Saturday where the first hour or two was spent discussing TV shows and movies, expensive hobbies (eg collecting expensive items), and cars.  I only knew some of the people beforehand so I'm sure the rest thought I was shy or awkward when really I just found the conversation stupid and pointless.     

[Bob W]

So I was pretty much this way prior to finding this site but I just don't enjoy spending money.   

Vacations are a drain and really not fun due to the knowledge of what they cost.

Eating out at a restaurant has all the charm of a medieval torture chamber.

Entertaining at home sucks.

Riding on a friends boat it is a challenge not to figure the cost per mile he spends annually.  (about $7 per mile)

Hell even drinking beer sucks.

Here is the weird thing.  It doesn't matter if I'm paying for it or someone else.  My father-in-law often takes large groups of family out for dinner or lunch.  The bill is usually well over $500.   I order something like a hamburger or soup attempting to help him keep the spending down.   

I even have two gift cards for restaurants in my pocket that I will feel bad about when I spend them.

My wife likes to spend on entertainment so I have to participate in a certain amount of these activities.

When someone buys a new car or other item I often feel sorry for them and then revert to the Dale Carnegie shtick mentioned above. 

Go figure.   

[celery]

This is a very interesting topic.  If you feel rigid, perfectionistic and/or obsessed with frugality, I would encourage you to take the self-test linked below.  It has occurred to me that MMM likely appeals to people who suffer from OCPD (obsessive compulsive personality disorder), which is very different from OCD. 

http://ocpd.freeforums.org/cammer-self-test-t3824.html

If you score high on that test you should check out more info on the ocpd.freeforums.org website.

[Luck12]

If you find yourself really struggling with being at least somewhat generous and/or you are giving up the #1 or #2 things that normally give you a high level of satisfaction/utility in the name of saving more money, you are doing MMM the wrong way. 

[zinnie]

Yeah, I agree with a lot of OP's points. For me I decided a halfway point is better than being as frugal as I possibly can. There is definitely a danger for me if I'm focusing too much on five years from now and not enough on NOW. What if I don't even make it that long? Saving a lot while still enjoying the present, traveling, paying for fun activities, etc. is my happy medium.

[Jack]

In addition to the benefits, I have found some negative side effects. 

• I am less resilient when things go wrong (car needs repairs, radiator leaks through kitchen ceiling)--I used to shrug these things off and just be grateful I had the money to pay for them, and now they make me feel sick to my stomach.

Wow, normally mustachianism has exactly the opposite effect: now you've got the money to pay for emergencies, whereas before you only "thought" you did.

As for charity, my strategy is to spend (mostly) time volunteering now, and to donate money after FI. It's like being in a plane crash: put your own breathing mask on before helping others....

[GetItRight]

I compulsively check Mint and other accounts throughout the day as well as updating/reviewing/tweaking spreadsheets. It annoys me that payments and transactions do not post immediately, and especially if they do not post within 24 hours. Since this I have begun making additional small debt payments on the order of $250-$500 once or twice a week, sometimes before my last payment has even posted. Before MMM/Mint/FIRE I might have checked once or twice a week and just added whatever I could afford into the next monthly payment.

This is probably a negative thing psychologically but it is good financially that I am far more attentive than I used to be. For now I'm not worried about it as I have a hair on fire debt emergency, but once I'm through the debt payment phase and funneling most of that income into investments I don't expect to be so OCD about this.

[Dr. Doom]

We make our own prisons, don't we?  Whether it is work, or living by values that aren't your own, or by constantly judging others instead of just living your life.

Yep.  To be less dramatic I could say that we all create structure and patterns in our lives and minds, some of it intentionally, and some of it not.  It's your brain's natural way of being efficient and saving energy, so that we "always know what to do" in any given situation without too much active analysis. But sometimes your autopilot behaviors and ruminatory thoughts are not good and do not produce happiness.  At this point of recognition it becomes necessary to make changes, i.e. to update the current defaults. Takes work to do that, though.

I'm also enjoy the sharing on this thread.  Folks being honest about experiences and decision-making processes are what makes these forums so great.

[arebelspy]

I find myself more optimistic, more generous, and much happier.

I could see how one starting out who try to make changes without the mindset get more pessimistic, more stingy, and unhappy.  But for me the opposite is true.

I don't even think or care about money anymore, now it's all onto the badassity stuff.  I think that naturally comes later on in your journey.  (Hopefully?)

[Schaefer Light]

One more comment on the work thing. 
My personal observation is that FU money makes work easier.  "Hey, I can quit anytime and live for a while.  Great.  I feel much less anxious about everything now."
But FI money makes work harder.  "What the hell am I continuing to work for?  Why am I still hanging around here?"
The negative here is that if you don't really love your job, it becomes very difficult to stay once you're officially FI.  Your logical mind will be urging you to move on to the next phase of your life.

I agree with this.  I think I'll be a happier person when I have a sufficient (in my mind) amount of FU money.  I also think I'll quit the day (make that the minute ;) I have enough money to be FI.

[trailrated]

Dr. Doom that post was fucking awesome.

[Kaspian]

Weird...  My life has been more than tripled in happiness with no downside psychologically whatsoever.   The only thing I've really noticed is that on (the extremely rare) occasion when I'm out with friends and look at a menu and I'll gasp, "$20 for chicken wings?!!  Get the fuck outta here.  I don't have that kinda money!"  Which always gives them a good chuckle.  Pricey, but I get food anyway and don't regret it later.

The shopping mall was what was really doing my head in psychologically.  Consumerism was making me mental.  I'd have full-blown anxiety attacks after being in a shopping environment after 40 minutes--cold sweats, trembling, the works.  Thanks to MMM I only find myself in that environment 2 or 3 times a year now.  (And then with a very specific written list on what to stock up on.)  Yay!!  Don't even get me started on the mental benefits of cutting my cable.  :)

[Dyk]

I formulated some thoughts, and found Dr. Doom said it quite nicely:

Being on the FIRE path is supposed to enable a better life.  It's supposed to "free" you to do and think about what you want.
If instead, all you think about is money, you're entering a different kind of slavery, one that involves a prison, and your mind.  Not good.

I am very newly on this journey, but found my response is much like arebelspy, I feel better, happier, more free to do the things I want to do.
If you don't have that yet, try to figure out why you are on this journey in the first place?

[SugarMountain]

My big issue is I am like the fat guy who knows the solution to his weight problem is to diet and exercise, but he never seems to be able to consistently improve his diet or get adequate exercise.  So, I get pissed at myself for not improving my situation.  Also, much like others have mentioned, I tend to enjoy certain things less because I end up focusing on how much they cost.

[lr]

Paradoxically, I now find myself spending more easily.  I bought a new car, hired a nanny, traveled on more vacations, and increased my charity by more than an order of magnitude these past few years precisely because I better understand the tradeoff between money, freedom, pollution, health, education, social impact, and years of employment.

True, I also check Mint more often and subtly recommend global warming documentaries instead of shows about muscle cars when my buddies hang out, but that's more than okay. I don't mind being weird. If I'm right, folks will eventually notice and come around.

[Luck better Skill]

  I was frugal.  Looking around me I was sure of it.  Then found out I was just the a gold fish in some kid's ziplock bag till I got dumped into the big tank.  Kind of a bummer to learn there is an ocean of badassity out there.
  Once I got over that negative shock it got much better.  My mustachian buddy does all that mint stuff, I just take a ballpark glance monthly and get a total at the end of the year so as not to stress myself.  When paying for a repair or replacing an appliance it is nice to pay from saving not credit card. 
  FI is my goal.  When large paycheck is no longer a concern, then I expect to be more productive at employment I enjoy.

[HP]

My husband likes to pare down budget categories as much as possible, and is always looking for new ways to do that. At one point, we were feeding two adults and two toddlers from $150/mo. We had plenty of food stocked up, some great beef in the freezer, and I was feeling like I couldn't allow myself to eat it even though I was craving it and have to eat red meat regularly for my anemia, because it would cost too much to replace when it was gone. That sort of thing is definitely a problem.

But I don't think mustachianism is about starving yourself in the name of saving money, so I'd be hesitant to call this a "mustachian" problem.

Certainly it's very typical, psychologically, when you latch on to a new way of life, or "belief system" to become very extreme and detail-oriented and legalistic about it, and then (hopefully) loosen up some and settle. Anyone who has any experience with religion, or leaving a religion, has probably seen or experienced this phenomenon.

[sobezen]

Completely agree with the majority of the posts and especially with Dr. Doom (love the name btw)!  I find reminding myself it is not a competition nor a race to FIRE helps.  Definitely experienced the borderline obsessive checking of accounts and net worth.  Took a few months to accept doing this really does not make things happen faster.  What I found helpful involved reading more, taking better care of my health, learning from others and embracing different perspectives and techniques.  For example, before I was not an experienced DIYer but over the years this skills has vastly improved - I've become more creative and resilient.  Another thing I learned was with all things in life, maintaining balance is essential!  It is very easy to get lost in saving, investing to the point of ignoring social interaction, charity, family and friends.  Doing so was an extreme and I was not happy with life.  Again, maintaining balance was essential for me. 

Another thing I found helpful is accepting others differences.  When I was starting out I found it extremely easy to become critical (at times negative) and judge others; it was too easy to label someone elses actions as unacceptable or foolish.  But really who am I to judge?  Everyone starts somewhere, right?  Even Pete had spendy habits when he started out?  And so, I've learned for my own happiness it is just better to let things go and do my best.  I am happy and content even if my extended family and friends do not share my early retirement passion; I do not seek their approval or acceptance.  In truth, for me actions speak louder than words.  Knowing I proactively took the actions to increase my savings, reduce my spending, improve my health, and educate myself is enough.  This hard earned knowledge and experience is comforting.  I know I can now walk away tomorrow if I wanted to, but for now, I am willing to go along the salaryman's journey and learn new skills.  YMMV.  Cheers!  :)

[WYOGO]

There are some very powerful words of wisdom in this thread. For all those nearing the end of this journey, your insights are very much appreciated.

[innerscorecard]

For me the hardest thing is the decreased camaraderie with others in the real world. When I socialize with others without similar values, I have pretend to be interested in them, Dale Carnegie style. That's exhausting. In the end it leads to me simply being more detached from other people in this world.

+1.  I experienced this at a dinner party Saturday where the first hour or two was spent discussing TV shows and movies, expensive hobbies (eg collecting expensive items), and cars.  I only knew some of the people beforehand so I'm sure the rest thought I was shy or awkward when really I just found the conversation stupid and pointless.     

It's super awkward. But one of the benefits of being FI is that you only have to be friends with those who you'd like to be friends with. Family on the other hand...:)

[Cheddar Stacker]

Dr. Doom that post was fucking awesome.

+1. Kudos sir. But I have a few more thoughts and links to add.

Here's a thread from a while back. A lot of good stuff about finding balance:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/frugal-fatigue/

A great wait but why post about the pshychology of "tomorrow".
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/11/life-is-picture-but-you-live-in-pixel.html

I posted my thoughts on that WBW post in my journal and there was some good discussion:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/the-cheddar-block/msg443656/#msg443656

I've found my life has improved many times over since finding this site. I've learned so much about money, psychology, life, happiness, badassity, and "learning". Seriously, I learned how to learn by reading here. I did go through some phases as OP and others discussed above, but I found my groove.

[steveo]

So I was pretty much this way prior to finding this site but I just don't enjoy spending money.   

Vacations are a drain and really not fun due to the knowledge of what they cost.

Eating out at a restaurant has all the charm of a medieval torture chamber.

Entertaining at home sucks.

Riding on a friends boat it is a challenge not to figure the cost per mile he spends annually.  (about $7 per mile)

Hell even drinking beer sucks.

Here is the weird thing.  It doesn't matter if I'm paying for it or someone else.  My father-in-law often takes large groups of family out for dinner or lunch.  The bill is usually well over $500.   I order something like a hamburger or soup attempting to help him keep the spending down.   

I even have two gift cards for restaurants in my pocket that I will feel bad about when I spend them.

My wife likes to spend on entertainment so I have to participate in a certain amount of these activities.

When someone buys a new car or other item I often feel sorry for them and then revert to the Dale Carnegie shtick mentioned above. 

Go figure.

I love this post.

[EDSMedS]

Dr. Doom, among others, is nailing this!  I'd also like to go +1 for Celery's post: I exhibit OCPD, along with mild autism and codependency.  It can be useful, but can also contribute to negative cycles.  Learning to recognize negative cycles is the first step to redirecting your energy.

Frugality should justifiably cause some anxiety.  Consumerism is as much about control through anesthetization as it is products.  Consumerism sells a pleasant dream for which you must pay.  Frugality shakes you awake and makes you wonder, "why am I spending all this time and money on work and products that don't support my (and others') happiness?"  It is unsettling.

I will not look at Personal Capital this month: ensuring that I know my (growing) exact net worth to the penny does not outweigh the anxiety of optimizing my investment strategy.

[MrsPete]

MMM may not think this is a negative thing but any purchase pains my wife and I. 

I used to fall into this category.  For me, it was an extension of the unhealthy attitude towards money in my family of origin, which turned into an obsession about not spending during my college years (which wasn't hard because I didn't have any money).  Even when a purchase was clearly the right choice, I'd second-guess myself, and then I'd feel badly about having spent the money. 

However, as I grew into myself in my 20s, earned enough money to live comfortably, and saw my savings slowly but steadily increase -- then I became able to spend without fear. 

Remember...progress, not perfection.

Like you, I enjoy a nice glass of wine every now and then . . .

I don't care a hoot for wine, but it's a good example.  It's a small luxury that most people do enjoy, and it can be an enjoyable luxury, a reasonable splurge -- as long as you don't "over indulge" and go hog wild. 

However, I disagree with the word "perfection".  If you could spend exactly what you need for your necessities -- not a penny more, not a penny less -- never a splurge, never a luxury, never something just for enjoyment -- that wouldn't be perfect.  We all want the occasional "glass of wine" (or whatever else makes us happy), and I agree with your assessment that if you're JUST about saving, you're going to have a hard time switching over to spending those carefully-hoarded dollars once your paychecks stop.

My daughter and I use the term "Future Me" pretty often.  For example, when I'm at the end of a long canning session with the last of the summer vegetables, I might say, "I'm sick of doing this, but Future Me is going to love having vegetable soup all winter."  But I didn't over-do and prepare canned foods for more than one year, or close off one bedroom to keep enough canned goods for the rest of my life.  Over Christmas break she made herself sit down and do some reading for her upcoming college class, which hasn't yet started, and she said, "Future Me can go out instead of cramming all this reading into the semester".  But she still had plenty of time with the family and her boyfriend, and she didn't forego fun for the sake of doing 100% of her next-semester reading.  The same applies to money: Search for a mid-point, a happy medium, a balance between living today AND preparing for tomorrow.
 

I've very nearly completed the journey (April 2015 quit date) and, looking back over the last 11 years or so, yes, I've gone through many of the things you've mentioned.

Excellent post!  If I were asked to sum it up in one word, I'd say BALANCE.  You've found "the sweet spot" between spending and saving, and you have a healthy attitude towards money.  You're at the doorstep of achieving your goals, yet you're not a penny-pinching miser. 

So I was pretty much this way prior to finding this site but I just don't enjoy spending money.   

Dude, what DO you like? 

This is a very interesting topic.  If you feel rigid, perfectionistic and/or obsessed with frugality, I would encourage you to take the self-test linked below.  It has occurred to me that MMM likely appeals to people who suffer from OCPD (obsessive compulsive personality disorder), which is very different from OCD. 

http://ocpd.freeforums.org/cammer-self-test-t3824.html

If you score high on that test you should check out more info on the ocpd.freeforums.org website.

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts about some posters.  You can take a good idea and stretch it to an extreme point at which it's not healthy any longer. 

Paradoxically, I now find myself spending more easily.  I bought a new car, hired a nanny, traveled on more vacations, and increased my charity by more than an order of magnitude these past few years precisely because I better understand the tradeoff between money, freedom, pollution, health, education, social impact, and years of employment.

Again, BALANCE.  It's not about spending as few pennies as possible -- it's about spending them in the places where they'll do you the most good, where they'll have the strongest impact on your life.  It's about spending (and saving) consciously.

[yandz]

Healthy or not (I lean toward thinking not and it used to bother me, but now I just accept it and try to keep it in check as needed), obsessiveness is part of my learning pattern to fully integrate something.

I become obsessive for a while, it mellows, and on the other side I am left with an integrated part of myself.  Definitely happened with MMM.  I joked to my spouse that after MMM, I started living paycheck to paycheck because I wanted to invest the next one so badly whereas before I never paid attention when I got paid.  Any obsessive learning phase has some, what I view as, negative psychological impacts for that period. But the net is always positive.

At this point, I don't feel any negative impacts from MMM - I feel lighter and more positive about life in general (and I was always an optimist, so I assume I am at annoying levels now).

[DoubleDown]

I always think the comparison of MMM principles or frugality to overall health or weight loss is very apt. Is it negative to discover that one's overeating (i.e., over-consumption) is causing them to be fat and unhealthy? That's a positive discovery, not a negative one, and it's like discovering MMM principles for frugality to improve your financial and overall well-being. Depriving oneself of overindulgence is also a positive development. Deprivation to the point of starvation clearly is not. Checking your weight obsessively throughout the day would be unnecessary and likely negative and self-defeating, but always having your health in mind when you make eating choices is a great mindset to have.

When you make healthy choices, become fit and reach the point where you no longer want to stuff a dozen twinkies in your mouth, it's the same with MMM talking about how he doesn't feel deprived of material goods. Those things don't improve your real happiness. Having some negative feelings about overindulgence is a good thing -- embrace that.

If you find others are trying to drag you back into a fat and unhealthy lifestyle, recognize that for what it is. You don't have to look down on those people. You can still love them and understand the bonds that hold them while making your own positive choices not to be fat and unhealthy. They might observe and learn from your example, but they might not.

I'm definitely in the crowd where MMM (and this forum) has only been positive for me.

[Cheddar Stacker]

I always think the comparison of MMM principles or frugality to overall health or weight loss is very apt. Is it negative to discover that one's overeating (i.e., over-consumption) is causing them to be fat and unhealthy? That's a positive discovery, not a negative one, and it's like discovering MMM principles for frugality to improve your financial and overall well-being. Depriving oneself of overindulgence is also a positive development. Deprivation to the point of starvation clearly is not. Checking your weight obsessively throughout the day would be unnecessary and likely negative and self-defeating, but always having your health in mind when you make eating choices is a great mindset to have.

When you make healthy choices, become fit and reach the point where you no longer want to stuff a dozen twinkies in your mouth, it's the same with MMM talking about how he doesn't feel deprived of material goods. Those things don't improve your real happiness. Having some negative feelings about overindulgence is a good thing -- embrace that.

If you find others are trying to drag you back into a fat and unhealthy lifestyle, recognize that for what it is. You don't have to look down on those people. You can still love them and understand the bonds that hold them while making your own positive choices not to be fat and unhealthy. They might observe and learn from your example, but they might not.

I'm definitely in the crowd where MMM (and this forum) has only been positive for me.

Good analogy. So you're saying don't be obese, and don't be anorexic. Find the balance.

[CowboyAndIndian]

This is a very interesting topic.  If you feel rigid, perfectionistic and/or obsessed with frugality, I would encourage you to take the self-test linked below.  It has occurred to me that MMM likely appeals to people who suffer from OCPD (obsessive compulsive personality disorder), which is very different from OCD. 

http://ocpd.freeforums.org/cammer-self-test-t3824.html

If you score high on that test you should check out more info on the ocpd.freeforums.org website.

Wow, I scored 80 on that test.

[mbl]

Dr. Doom your post more than any other I've read on this forum has captured this in an articulate, gracious and kind manner.
Thank you so very much.  I truly appreciated your post.

[Dr. Doom]

...stuff I agree with

Same here, the FIRE journey has also been overwhelmingly positive for me, front to back.  If I had to weight it, I'd give it a 90/10 good/bad split, and the 10 "bad" has since been fixed -- the 'negatives' I pointed out in my much-too-long post are problems that can be addressed relatively easily and were generally caused by myself.  There's nothing about Mustachianism that's inherently negative or anything less than awesome.

[sheepstache]

I find myself more optimistic, more generous, and much happier.

I could see how one starting out who try to make changes without the mindset get more pessimistic, more stingy, and unhappy.  But for me the opposite is true.

I don't even think or care about money anymore, now it's all onto the badassity stuff.  I think that naturally comes later on in your journey.  (Hopefully?)

Yes, I'm definitely happier and more optimistic now. It's nuts.

And yes I think for many people the negative feelings occur at the beginning. You're really tightening down and may be internally yelling at yourself because changing habits is hard.  But once you have those habits down, it's smooth sailing.

The one thing I find is that I'm more likely to use expense as an excuse not to do something I didn't want to do anyway. For example I'm anti-social so if a group outing has any costs associated with it, that's one more argument not to go, even though I know I should challenge myself to get out more and my friends will be happy if I go. Ran out of cleaning products? Oh man, well, I hate cleaning anyway, so let's put off buying more as long as possible.

I'm thin and really should eat more and healthier but don't love to eat like most people so often times go with the cheapest and easiest food (this has psychological impacts and physical impacts).

Oh, hon. I hear you on that but you have to stop. Add 25 or 50 bucks or whatever to your grocery budget and force yourself to use it. Eventually you may find a way to eat sufficiently without that extra amount, but it's important to break the habit of neglecting that area of your health. It's not worth the small amount saved.