Need help with my psychology around FI

[Murse]

Hello,

I have always delayed my reward in exchange for a larger reward in the future. As a 13 year old and also as an adult. I went to college, got an associates in nursing. Took a crappy job at high pay/benefits, moved to a better location but on call waiting for someone to retire. I routinely think about going back to school to be a psychiatric Nurse practitioner, I do think I would enjoy the job moderately better but the pay (delayed gratification) is what really seems to be drawing me. They cap out at 80% more then I currently cap out at.

Anyways all of that is just to give examples of my problem. I am having trouble keeping it all in perspective, it does not matter how I am doing I always want more. More income, more savings, more growth, more education ect... I am less then 4 years from semi-FI, my current job role easily changes to part time. We currently save around 6k/month (about 70% savings rate.) I just need advice.

[We be free if we try]

I agree with Malkyn, from a slightly different viewpoint. As humans, we all have a need to grow, all the time. More often than not, we avoid this growth, or sublimate it into shopping, and/or the pursuit of more...whatever, even FIRE. Because it's way easier than the hard stuff - learning to experience and maintain intimacy, healing old pain that we don't even know we're holding, removing our self-limitations. We pursue our version of more and this other growth stuff just waits, til we're ready, or til we're in crisis or have hit bottom. YMMV. Good luck because it's worth it!

[BicycleB]

No special expertise here, just best wishes. Some experience with personal growth, though - shifts in perspective, different life situations over time, etc (50something now, thin FIR, several previous career shifts).

Suggestions/ideas/leading questions:
1. Which do you prefer in your gut - retiring, continuing your work, or continuing to work but changing something about it?
2. If retiring, don't retrain unless you can prove on paper than that you will reach FIRE sooner.
3. If continuing, focus concretely on reconciling with current situation, learning to be happy now. Do the therapy, begin a gratitude journal, etc.
4. If changing work details for emotional fulfillment, seek to change the work details without retraining if you can. As appropriate, change your work habits, modify job terms, search for job that meets your desires more precisely, etc. Perhaps first, just shift focus on the job to work relationships instead of work accomplishments (bonus - no external changes needed, implementation cost zero).
5. If the higher-wages-in-future money pulls you emotionally but you can't prove on paper that there's a payoff before FIRE, don't retrain yet. Dig deep into the reasons. Again, therapy. Also do any items from 3 and 4 that have a chance at affecting your emotions. If unsure, do all of them!

:)

I applaud your question. It shows insight. You've established a path to FIRE, likely solving the financial equations of your life. Now you're addressing the next step of growth, happiness, by offering up the most important and confusing question in that area you have. Keep banging on it. You can do this too.

[Freedomin5]

Do you have a clear definition of what is “enough” for you?

That’s where I started — with the end in mind. I defined “enough” for me — the point where I feel comfortable with less striving. What is enough in terms of an education? House size? Financial nest  egg? Income? Savings rate?

Once I had a picture of my “ideal” life, it was easy to slow down once we started approaching it and could see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Now when people ask me why I don’t strive for more (more pay, the next promotion/title, larger house, fancier vacations), I simply respond, “Why? I have enough.”

[Frankies Girl]

I'd take that drive and refocus onto the thing I'd be retiring into - a challenging hobby or the next job that isn't dependent on money (and you'd do because you freaking love it).

If you don't have something like that in mind, that is what you should be working on in the next few years.

I also agree about working with a therapist if this drive to keep going despite having won the game is disturbing you at all.

Nothing wrong with being ambitious or striving for more knowledge/pushing yourself, unless you're seriously unhappy with the mental state it leaves you in.

What about also focusing on one really freaking spectacular vacation a year? Your goals could be to plan the ultimate holiday in some location you've never been and do something while there that is not just fun but challenging? So it combines you need to push yourself, but also gratification and enjoyment (no delaying)? You've got to start thinking of ways to enjoy your hard work and drive, and trying to get new hobbies, new adventures or new FUN things to do may be what you need to start incorporating.

[Schaefer Light]

I used to be brutal that way, and even worse, always had a huge sense of pride about my ability to embrace delayed gratification. I used to label myself as "an extremely outcome-oriented person" and then one day a very blunt therapist said "mentally healthy people don't do that."

I'm sure this is an oversimplification, but is the solution to become more process-oriented and less goal-oriented?  I seem to be very bad about refusing to take any risks that would jeopardize my FIRE goal (or any other goals/plans, for that matter).  For instance, I would be terrified of taking a new job making less than what I make now for fear that it would both delay retirement and not be any more satisfying than my current job.  Then I'd feel like a real idiot.

[acroy]

sounds like a good problem to me. Always on fire, you're on of the motivated 'do-ers'. you lack not motivation but direction.
take a step back; what is your life for? what is important? point your motivation at that and away you go.
good luck!

[mxt0133]

+1 On what @Malkynn said.  Trying to solve this issue in a logical way won't work because you are thoughts and emotions are not being driven by logic.  I am going through something similar which I discovered was driven by incessant anxiety.  Due to by upbringing and childhood experiences, I became very goal oriented and always looked to the future and how to make things better.  I sacrificed the now to make sure I was protected and safe which in reality is all just an illusion, as you can't really control such things.

I am seeing a therapist which is helping me confront the underlying cause of all my anxiety and am also practicing mindfulness to help my mind not anticipate every adverse scenario and protect myself from it.  I still plan and delay gratification but not to the extreme I used to.  I am able to handle things that were not planned for much better and be present to actually enjoy fruits of my delayed gratification, instead of thinking of how I could have done it better.

 

[MaybeBabyMustache]

I like signing up for physically challenging events, particularly with friends. Training, & then achieving them. Goals are great, but they don't all have to be financially oriented, & can also come with rewards. I have financial goals, fitness goals, personal goals, meditation goals, etc. Building the practice of effort & discipline has always been important to me. But, I also take time to recharge & reward, if that makes sense.

[beer-man]

Stay the course Murse! I’m in the same boat but doing it on one salary and in the ER! Suck it up buttercup.:) I get it, it gets rough at times. Headed in to work now, no idea what kind of shitstorm will be there when I arrive.


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[inline five]

I just want to thank the OP and posters who have followed up as I too have this emotional condition. I did try seeing a therapist at one point however it was the only one in my area taking appointments and we did not click. He worked more with troubled youths.

I have delayed gratification so long that even rewards do not feel like rewards. I do not enjoy spending any money at all.

ETA: also we began our lives in a very income restricted way and have had some troubles moving on and accepting our higher income. I continuously think it will stop suddenly and our good fortune will end. I truly feel lucky to be in this position but don't want to waste it.

[swampwiz]

Here's something to ponder.  A lot of things that are purchased are either "standard" or "luxury" grade.  Living in a chi-chi neighborhood is luxury; living in an exurb in standard (let's presume you are retired so that being close to work is not an issue).  Watching a football game at the stadium is luxury; watching it on TV is standard.  Driving a new beemer is luxury; driving an old VW is standard.  The key to it all is that the standard stuff is the stuff you (virtually) absolutely have to have, whereas the upgrade to luxury is something that you don't need to have, and thus the choice to continue to work is just to have the extra money for the luxury.

[sanderh]

Humans have not evolved to be happy, but to survive and reproduce. The "always more" mindset comes from maximizing fit offspring. There is random variation among the members of our species - some more anxious about the future than others, some delay gratification more than others. If someone is way out there in delaying gratification (or in some other trait), then that may be (labeled as) pathological. Therapy may help in that case.
Focus on happiness, not safety, wealth or achievement, which are only means to an end.

[beer-man]

I used to be brutal that way, and even worse, always had a huge sense of pride about my ability to embrace delayed gratification. I used to label myself as "an extremely outcome-oriented person" and then one day a very blunt therapist said "mentally healthy people don't do that."

I'm sure this is an oversimplification, but is the solution to become more process-oriented and less goal-oriented?  I seem to be very bad about refusing to take any risks that would jeopardize my FIRE goal (or any other goals/plans, for that matter).  For instance, I would be terrified of taking a new job making less than what I make now for fear that it would both delay retirement and not be any more satisfying than my current job.  Then I'd feel like a real idiot.

.

Honestly, feeling like an idiot has frequently been the most productive thing I’ve ever done. The greatest things that have ever happened to me are my failures. I don’t say that lightly. I would be miserable had my life gone the way I had hoped and planned.

Me too


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[ilsy]

Hi, Murse.
Since you are a nurse you should be familiar with this "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs." People can't achieve happiness until their needs are met. I don't know much about you to speculate on what stage, or stages of the hierarchy you are, and what needs you are trying to meet. One cannot be happy when they don't feel safe, for example. The very basic needs on the bottom have to be met first. You are definitely trying very hard to meet some needs. Those needs make you anxious and force you to want more and more.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Hi, Murse.
Since you are a nurse you should be familiar with this "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs." People can't achieve happiness until their needs are met. I don't know much about you to speculate on what stage, or stages of the hierarchy you are, and what needs you are trying to meet. One cannot be happy when they don't feel safe, for example. The very basic needs on the bottom have to be met first. You are definitely trying very hard to meet some needs. Those needs make you anxious and force you to want more and more.

There’s no empirical evidence to support Maslow’s theory, so it’s not settled fact.

Murse, I’m not sure what the problem is? If you want to be a psychiatric nurse and keep working, do it. If you feel that want is interfering negatively with your life, then explore that with therapy. As someone interested in psychiatry, it wouldn’t hurt to have the experience as a client anyways. It doesn’t sound like you can go wrong either way. The nice thing about the path you’re on, so many options are before you. You’re only limited by your imagination and effort.

[HenryDavid]

An enlightening thing, for me, has been spending time in situations where I really have nothing, or nearly. A canoe trip in the wilderness, a long Euro backpacking trip with hardly any money. You are “deprived,” and yet somehow end up having incredibly happy moments. I learned that happiness is not caused by stuff or money. It’s caused by other things.
My prescription is, try spending time somewhere living wthout much. Camp, travel, volunteer.
See what that does.

[ilsy]

Hi, Murse.
Since you are a nurse you should be familiar with this "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs." People can't achieve happiness until their needs are met. I don't know much about you to speculate on what stage, or stages of the hierarchy you are, and what needs you are trying to meet. One cannot be happy when they don't feel safe, for example. The very basic needs on the bottom have to be met first. You are definitely trying very hard to meet some needs. Those needs make you anxious and force you to want more and more.

There’s no empirical evidence to support Maslow’s theory, so it’s not settled fact.

Wow, ok. We are talking about psychology. It practically all based on pt's self reporting and case studies and not on empirical evidence and settled facts. How does anyone empirically measure anxiety when everyone manifests anxiety differently? I might have a slightly elevate heart rate due to anxiety, or maybe I forgot to drink my coffee in the morning and now my heart rate compensates for my low BP. While someone else might be "trying" to kill themselves due to severe case of anxiety and as a result self medicating with drugs and alcohol. How many actors we know, who went that way? All theories in psychology are just theories and not settled facts. If we had facts explaining a phenomenon, we wouldn't have needed theories.

Murse is describing a clear case of anxiety (wanting more and more and being unhappy with the current achievements), even if she wasn't having an anxiety, it's safe to assume she does, since it takes place in 90% of disorders, plus a mild anxiety is a normal feeling in majority of people.

Maslow applies to any situation, it works just because it follows common sense. I can't speculate on the needs that Murse is trying to meet, I don't have enough info. Plus, it's non-therapeutical to tell someone, "Hey, you are anxious because you have insufficient support from family members, in other words, your Maslow's love and belonging isn't met, which affects your self-esteem (also in Maslow's pyramid). But instead of finding the needed support somewhere else, you are trying to make your loved ones support you more by producing more income and more savings."

Treating anxiety only (treating the symptom) won't make much change, the underlying cause (as mxt0133 said) is the correct route. Maslow's hierarchy might help figure out the cause. But it only works for those who has been analyzing themselves and others for a while and able to look from aside on their own situation (which is very hard to do, I admit). The easier course is to see a therapist, for sure. But if you are aware of Maslow's theory before and during the therapy, it might help you sort the things sooner.

[ilsy]

There’s no empirical evidence to support Maslow’s theory, so it’s not settled fact.

It's going to be off topic a bit, I apologize for that.

The same applies to a theory, that if you call someone "stupid" twice a day for a month, their self-esteem won't be affected. There is no empirical evidence, so it's not a settled fact. Their self-esteem could be normally that low, who can prove that there is a significant difference form the baseline? To have an empirical evidence, first, I need to figure out how do I measure a base line self-esteem, what parameters do I use (what empirical parameters, not self reported non-sense of "what is your self-esteem today on the scale of 1-10"). I don't know. I speculate, that it should be measured in cm, since we are obviously talking about height, may be mm, or nm. It ought to be tangible to make it empirical and a settled fact. But since we can't empirically measure a base line for self-esteem how can we argue that anything can lower it. It means, nothing can lower it.  So, the bottom line, calling someone "stupid" every day for a month won't lower their self-esteem. Don't trust anybody who tells you otherwise. Is that right?

[ilsy]

Isn’t Murse a dude?

I assumed Murse meant “male nurse”...right??

You might be right. I apologize if I called a "dude" - "she."

[beer-man]

Isn’t Murse a dude?

I assumed Murse meant “male nurse”...right??

You might be right. I apologize if I called a "dude" - "she."

Murse’s are typically dudes


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