Need advice - moving to Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill

[lara]

Hi MMM'ers!

DH and I are thinking of moving to the Raleigh/Durham/CH area from the Bay Area. His new company is located in Research Triangle Park. We're in the initial stage of looking at houses, and our ideal budget would be 250k, but for the right house/right location, we would go up to 450k. In the ideal world, we would live in the cheapest house in the best neighborhood but are willing to splurge if needed. We would appreciate your advice/thoughts on the below.

1) Our 2 non-negotiables for the house are proximity to RTP (ideally, < 10 miles away) and a great school district. In my mind, a great school district is one where the high school offers lots of AP/IB classes (but maybe my definition is outdated? - if so, please correct!). I've done a bit of research on the school districts and have gotten some mixed reviews (in particular there have been some reviews re safety of some schools in Durham). In your opinion, what school district (and consequently high school) gives us the most Mustachian bang for our buck?

2) A secondary consideration is appreciation of the house. We've have moved more times than we'd like to admit, so for the next phase of our lives, we would like to stay put for a long time but are also cognizant of reality. From studying the real estate markets where we've lived in the past, house prices seem to appreciate the most/less impacted by the larger economic picture in areas close to universities. With that in mind, any thoughts on the areas surrounding UNC, Duke, and Wake Forest? Based on my incredibly hasty Google searching, the immediate area around Duke appears a bit sketchy (again - please let me know if I'm wrong on this!) but areas around UNC and Wake Forest are quite nice -- though those areas put us out of the ~ 10 mile range from RTP.

3) Any suggestions on Mustachian things to do in the Triangle? Specifically, thrift stores to go to, grocery stores that fit the MMM lifestyle, free/low cost things to do in the area.

4) Any suggestions on getting involved in the Triangle community? We're moving there for the job, don't know too many folks in the area, and would love to get involved with volunteering, meeting like-minded frugal folks, etc.

Thank you!
Lara

[mm31]

Chapel Hill has the most expensive housing in all the college towns in the USA. I don't know what that means for the housing market there, but it can't be good.

Durham's neighborhoods can vary wildly block by block. There are actually nice areas around Duke, my favorite one is around 9th St. I don't know much about schools there.

If I was moving back to the triangle, I would choose Durham. I find Raleigh to be too stuffy and I don't like college towns which means Chapel Hill is out of the question for me. The people in Durham just seem to actually enjoy living there and the sense of community is pretty strong.

[jimmy]

I've lived in Durham for over 25 years now and work in RTP. so I think I am qualified to comment!  It strikes me as the most mustachian of the 3.

Research Triangle Park is actually in Durham, so if short commute (or even bike-able) is the top priority Durham is the place.  For 250-350k you'll have lots of choices. The south side of Durham is mostly newer construction and a little trendier, but there are some older neighborhoods too.  Downtown has been going through a lot of revitalization the last 10-15 years.  Lots of small shops/restaurants/local businesses (Breweries!!!) there.  Close to the ball park and the farmer's market.  There is a nice greenway that runs from downtown south to Jordan lake.  Reasonably bike friendly.  Overall the town is small enough that you don't need to spend much time in the car to get anywhere.

I went to public school in Durham and I think I turned out ok!  We had several AP level courses in my junior and senior years.  I can't imagine it has changed significantly since then.

Chapell Hill (and Carrboro) are in Orange county .  At least near the University is also fairly bike-friendly and reasonably easy to get around.  Again there is a farmers market and lots of local businesses.  Your commute will take you through Durham to get to RTP.  Housing will be more expensive.

"Raleigh" is actually in Wake county and is divided into lots of areas.  North Raleigh is the closest to RTP, but you also have Downtown Raleigh. Morrisville, Cary, Apex, then further out Fuquay/Holly Springs, and Garner.  There's a lot of urban sprawl.  Again, nice schools and you can probably choose your house.  Like mm31 says, a little stuffy to me.  Lots of SUVs and well manicured lawns, that kind of thing.

Housing prices (in any of these areas) seem to be relatively stable.  It's not going to appreciate like the Bay area, but you probably won't end up under water unless you do something dumb.  We just don't get the big ups/downs.

There are lots of meetup-type groups here and enough local 'events', that its not hard to meet people or make friends.

People outside of Durham like to poopoo it as unsafe or some how lower class than Raleigh or Chapell Hill.  There are certainly a few places I'd be careful about, but you wouldn't accidentally move into one of those neighborhoods anyway.  I feel much safer here than in most large metro areas I've visited recently (SF/Oakland, Philly, Denver).

[RockinRobin]

Hi Lara,

I live in Carrboro, pretty much the same as Chapel Hill since you can't tell when you've left one and entered the other if you aren't looking for the sign. It is definitely more expensive here than Durham, but the schools are better and they have a ton of AP courses. Property values and property taxes are higher in Orange County than Wake or Durham, and the towns have added taxes as well for the schools and the free bus service.

I have heard that Durham has really done a good job with their revitalization, but I don't get over there very often so I haven't explored that much. Carrboro has a fabulous farmer's market and lots of opportunities to participate in community-supported agriculture.

I think you could easily find a home in either place in your price range. Durham is definietly closer to RTP and less expensive. From what I gather, the schools in SW Durham are the best. Wake County (Raleigh) schools are supposed to be really good too, but I don't know much about Raleigh these days.

Hope that helps! Welcome to the area :)

Robin

[Zamboni]

Depending upon where he works in RTP, the closest areas are Brier Creek (Wake County) and the edge of Durham just west of that (Brightleaf, Ashley Forest, Magnolia Place are some close nice developments) and Morrisville on the other side, which has many new developments.  You should be able to get something quite nice for $250K.  If you tell realtors that your price range is up to $450K, then they are going to show you McMansions in that range.  It's up to you, but there's no reason to spend more than $250K around here.  I have a 2500 square foot house with a very nice yard in an established neighborhood and it was less than $200K a couple of years ago (might sell for $220K now.)  I used to live in a $600k house here, and it was just a waste of money in a very spendy neighborhood with pretentious and flashy but paycheck to paycheck neighbors.

I should warn you that the commute into RTP is kind of a bear from any direction during rush hour, but especially from the Cary direction.  It's not California bad, but getting something really close to work would be a big plus.  They have tried to widen some road recently to alleviate it.  I used to commute from Chapel Hill to RTP and it was really a pain, but lots of people do it (part of why it's a pain.)

I've lived in Chapel Hill, Raleigh, and Durham.  Look at ratings of individual schools and don't worry about reputation of an entire school district.  I hate to say it, but I think most of the "bias" against Durham is racism, pure and simple.  If you talk to a realtor who seems to have any kind of bias against Durham, then you need to keep this fact in mind.  Durham is the most diverse of the cities.  I've lived here for 20 years and Durham is my favorite area now.  It has a good cultural scene and some really good, independent restaurants.  There are some "bad" neighborhoods in Durham, but not with homes for $250K+.

Good luck with your move!

[Abe]

Congratulations, you are the latest in a long stream of transplants from San Francisco to the Triangle! I'm from the area and my family has lived in all three cities, currently living away though. The schools in Durham are alright for NC standards. They will have a couple AP classes, and if your kids study hard they should be fine. Some of the schools have violence issues, so look into the areas carefully to determine which schools your kids could end up at.  Chapel Hill in general has very good schools that are well funded. That is a major driver of real estate prices and taxes. Both will be significantly more expensive than in Durham.  The crime is higher in Durham than the other two, but still a small fraction of what is seen in large cities. Interesting side note: I have been a victim of crime once in my decade living in the area, by Neo-Nazis of all people (this was after 9/11). They tried to attack me along with a dog, but the dog was smarter than them and halted when I pulled out my own weapon. Without the dog, they were reluctant to attack.

If you are working in RTP, I recommend finding a place in one of the newer subdivisions of Durham that Zamboni mentioned with decent school performance and housing options. Chapel Hill is really nice, and I plan to move back there as soon as possible, but is far from RTP. You will be pleasantly surprised at how cheap housing is in NC compared to San Francisco. My relatives bought a very nice house in a fancy part of Raleigh with a down-payment from the sale proceeds of their small SF house. They could have paid for the house in full, but chose to invest instead.

[Zamboni]

I forgot to mention that there are plenty of free/low cost things to do here.  The weather is nice, so there's hiking, biking, etc.  You can rent a canoe at Umstead state park for about $5, and they have free fishing equipment, organized nature walks, etc. 

As bogart said, the museums in downtown Raleigh are all free, parking is free on weekends, and they are quite nice even by big city standards, especially the Museum of natural sciences.  There is a fun "first Friday" concert downtown every month with art exhibits and bands.

There are many very low cost concerts and cultural events associated with the colleges and there's a pretty good music scene in general with each city having small venues in addition to the big stadium shows.  Most college sports are also free (exceptions are basketball, football, and sometimes baseball.)  We've gone with the kids to watch college soccer, baseball, hockey, and volleyball and had a blast.

Thrift shops abound, with the Goodwill at Brier Creek being my favorite because they keep it pretty clean and sort all of the clothes by gender and color and style.  There are also a couple of large Durham rescue mission thrift shops (more dust bunnies there, unfortunately.)  My friends like those because the clothes are also sorted by size.  Those have the benefit of having a pretty high turnover of big ticket items such as furniture and even cars.  There are some fancier consignment stores:  The Stock Exchang have (women only) and Plato's Closet, for example.

There are multiple chain grocery stores (Food Lion, Harris Teeter, Kroger) as well as super WalMarts and Targets which sell groceries here and there.  If you live anywhere near the RTP area you will have multiple options.  My Mom always marvels at how much cheaper our groceries are than hers in Denver.  Earthfare, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, Trader Joe's, Costco, BJ's Club, Sam's Club, they're all in the area.

If your kids are small, there are tons of free/very cheap things for them, like decent parks (one with a train and a carousel), NCSU sponsored "farm animal days" where they can hold baby chicks, a special children's museum called "Marbles", etc.

a great (but absurdly expensive) gourmet food store

I do love that place.  One of my favorite things about Chapel Hill.

[jpo]

Leesville area (northwest Raleigh) is nice. There are some nice areas in Durham that wouldn't be too far from RTP. Probably also worth looking at Cary since it's also close to RTP.

I would not live too close to Duke, that makes for some shady neighborhoods (sometimes) and a farther commute.

All you people replying, you should come to our Mustache Meetup this weekend!

[RootofGood]

I live in Raleigh near the I-440 beltline, but in a lower cost neighborhood (houses top out at $160k or so for a 2500 sf single family).  Commute to RTP where my wife works is 23 miles.  That's around 30 minutes if you go to work early and leave early, or 45 minutes-1 hr during rush hour with the occasional wreck. 

I don't know much about Durham schools, except they generally get better the further south you go.  I grew up in wake county, and went to Enloe HS.  We had 25 or so AP classes back in the 90's and that number probably grew since then.  IB also started the year after I left.  I entered engineering undergrad with 2 years college credit FWIW, as Enloe also offered high level university math classes at school (taught by an NCSU professor) and I did early release to go to NCSU to take engineering classes.  Schools in the western part of wake county are generally freaking awesome, and mostly new.  Great test scores.  Lots of AP's and motivated students.  Unfortunately the house prices can be steep in west wake county near RTP, so unless you want a moderately priced townhouse, you might be paying a lot for a house (nowhere near Bay Area prices). 

Traffic sucks about 2 hours per day on I-40 and around RTP, otherwise it isn't that bad in general (especially compared to CA). 

[rocketman48097]

Our company has an office in Tobacco Row, and no one there feels it's safe.  I would avoid Durham but my view is tainted by the high crime area our office is in.  I have no idea about the schools there but generally where there is crime there are not good parents either which leads to not so good schools.