Author Topic: Natural "Tipping Points"  (Read 6548 times)

vand

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Natural "Tipping Points"
« on: May 14, 2024, 08:16:34 AM »
I have been contemplating the idea that many systems rely on inputs within a certain band, or above/below a certain threshold in order for that system to function as intended.

My recent thread on demographics/birth rates being an example - the world has been shaped in the industrialized era with the assumption that populations will continue to grow, yet there comes a point somewhere where replacement rates continue to fall and populations decline just because that is the pattern entrenched and each repetition makes it harder to reverse.. for populations that is probably somewhere around a 1.5-1.6 replacement rate.

Another example is, I'm sure we're all aware, a retirement pot that grows much beyond about 30x annual expenses (3.33% initial WR) - failure rates fall to just about zero on such low WRs, and instead its almost impossible to not die with far more money than you retired with.  Of course this probably relies on global populations not collapsing (see above).

And there are many percieved tipping points, at least its claimed, with our planet's ecosystem, the argument being that the changes we've driven in our climate will continue and accelerate by themselves once we have breached a natural point of no return - a bit doomsdayish, but it's an argument we need to consider.

Anyway, not sure what the point of this was other than to express my thoughts on how crossing a tipping point can drive and be the catalyst for long term irreversible change.

reeshau

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2024, 08:30:20 AM »
Malcolm Gladwell has a book on this.  The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference

Ron Scott

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2024, 09:15:49 AM »
I have been contemplating the idea that many systems rely on inputs within a certain band, or above/below a certain threshold in order for that system to function as intended.

A sump pump works like this, as do most smart home alarm devices. I’m a bit like this too.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 10:33:26 AM by Ron Scott »

AMandM

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2024, 08:28:16 AM »
Anyway, not sure what the point of this was other than to express my thoughts on how crossing a tipping point can drive and be the catalyst for long term irreversible change.
That's almost the definition of a tipping point in my mind.

vand

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2024, 03:29:46 AM »
Anyway, not sure what the point of this was other than to express my thoughts on how crossing a tipping point can drive and be the catalyst for long term irreversible change.
That's almost the definition of a tipping point in my mind.

Yep. Few things are linear - a widespread flaw in human behaviour the widespread expectation for things to progress in a ordered and linear manner

GilesMM

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2024, 07:05:30 AM »
Anyway, not sure what the point of this was other than to express my thoughts on how crossing a tipping point can drive and be the catalyst for long term irreversible change.
That's almost the definition of a tipping point in my mind.

Yep. Few things are linear - a widespread flaw in human behaviour the widespread expectation for things to progress in a ordered and linear manner


The climate crisis will illustrate a nice tipping point as weather goes to hell in a handbag much faster than most people expected.  Outrageous storms, floods, heatwaves, freezes, etc.  Insurance companies will get pounded.  Throw in a few overdue earthquakes (hello PNW people) and Bob's your uncle.

Ron Scott

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2024, 06:40:52 AM »
The climate crisis will illustrate a nice tipping point as weather goes to hell in a handbag much faster than most people expected.  Outrageous storms, floods, heatwaves, freezes, etc.  Insurance companies will get pounded.

Correction: Insurers will increase rates to account for the cost of loss. Insureds will get pounded by the cost of storms, etc.

GilesMM

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2024, 07:28:00 AM »
The climate crisis will illustrate a nice tipping point as weather goes to hell in a handbag much faster than most people expected.  Outrageous storms, floods, heatwaves, freezes, etc.  Insurance companies will get pounded.

Correction: Insurers will increase rates to account for the cost of loss. Insureds will get pounded by the cost of storms, etc.


They can try but they are already finding homeowners simply won't pay.  Floridians are starting to go without insurance.  With a shrinking pool of rate payers, the insurers are in a downward spiral.

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/09/14/more-florida-homeowners-are-self-insuring-amid-property-insurance-crisis-heres-what-that-means/

Ron Scott

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2024, 06:18:32 PM »
The climate crisis will illustrate a nice tipping point as weather goes to hell in a handbag much faster than most people expected.  Outrageous storms, floods, heatwaves, freezes, etc.  Insurance companies will get pounded.

Correction: Insurers will increase rates to account for the cost of loss. Insureds will get pounded by the cost of storms, etc.


They can try but they are already finding homeowners simply won't pay.  Floridians are starting to go without insurance.



Florida is a disaster for both auto and home. The drivers are the absolute worst and the insurance rates reflect it. And storms make it almost impossible to make money on HO policies. The state has had their own massive property insurer of last resort for a long time, and the taxpayer is the backstop. You don’t want to be living there when that shit hits the fan. I understand Lloyds even pulled out, or are pulling out, of commercial property.

Can you imagine what Florida will look like if a good percentage of property owners, with half their net worth in the house, get blown away uninsured?

Chris Pascale

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2024, 07:33:18 PM »
I have been contemplating the idea that many systems rely on inputs within a certain band, or above/below a certain threshold in order for that system to function as intended.

A sump pump works like this, as do most smart home alarm devices. I’m a bit like this too.

I feel this. When taking a course called "Systems in a Man-Machine Environment" we were supposed to write up a short description of an open or closed loop system. I wrote about me freaking out on my first day of class, letting the sense of inadequacy build, feeling even worse when I saw that everyone but me was Asian (my classmates were engineers from China, Taiwan or Korea), and then as I was going back to my truck I was worried that I had a ticket because I couldn't take the hour off work to get a parking pass, but I also couldn't afford to get a ticket, and as I reached my vehicle I just wanted to punch it until either it or me was destroyed, and then I emotionally collapsed because I needed that old truck to get my kids to school, and to get me to school.

The TA handed it back and said, "it's supposed to be about a thermostat."

Dave1442397

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2024, 05:15:10 AM »
The climate crisis will illustrate a nice tipping point as weather goes to hell in a handbag much faster than most people expected.  Outrageous storms, floods, heatwaves, freezes, etc.  Insurance companies will get pounded.

Correction: Insurers will increase rates to account for the cost of loss. Insureds will get pounded by the cost of storms, etc.


They can try but they are already finding homeowners simply won't pay.  Floridians are starting to go without insurance.  With a shrinking pool of rate payers, the insurers are in a downward spiral.

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/09/14/more-florida-homeowners-are-self-insuring-amid-property-insurance-crisis-heres-what-that-means/

I asked one of my snowbird friends if his insurance had gone up, and he said not only had it more than doubled, but it didn't cover damage from "acts of god", which means hurricanes. He did not renew his policy.

twinstudy

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2024, 07:45:00 AM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

Arbitrage

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2024, 07:57:51 AM »

I asked one of my snowbird friends if his insurance had gone up, and he said not only had it more than doubled, but it didn't cover damage from "acts of god", which means hurricanes. He did not renew his policy.

Isn't this only possible if you don't have a mortgage?  I know that my lenders always have required insurance. 

My insurance rates went up 40% this year, living in the opposite corner of the country. 

Arbitrage

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2024, 08:00:35 AM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

They are, but state government policy there is only to deal with the consequences when it comes to climate change, never to acknowledge or attempt to address the cause.

bacchi

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2024, 08:00:55 AM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

That's another tipping point.  The insurance companies are using capitalism to signify that the climate is changing yet the State of Florida has banned climate change science from textbooks. Where is the tipping point where Florida capitulates and admits that climate change is happening?

GuitarStv

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2024, 08:06:13 AM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

That's another tipping point.  The insurance companies are using capitalism to signify that the climate is changing yet the State of Florida has banned climate change science from textbooks. Where is the tipping point where Florida capitulates and admits that climate change is happening?

I don't think there will be one.  People will simply move away from Florida to a new place where they can continue to deny reality more easily.

GilesMM

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2024, 08:29:27 AM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

That's another tipping point.  The insurance companies are using capitalism to signify that the climate is changing yet the State of Florida has banned climate change science from textbooks. Where is the tipping point where Florida capitulates and admits that climate change is happening?


I thought the CC-deniers didn't deny climate fluctuated, only that it was man-induced and controllable.

Glenstache

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2024, 02:24:11 PM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

They are, but state government policy there is only to deal with the consequences when it comes to climate change, never to acknowledge or attempt to address the cause.


https://streetartutopia.com/2024/04/10/politicians-discussing-climate-change/

Ron Scott

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2024, 06:29:24 AM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

That's another tipping point.  The insurance companies are using capitalism to signify that the climate is changing yet the State of Florida has banned climate change science from textbooks. Where is the tipping point where Florida capitulates and admits that climate change is happening?


I thought the CC-deniers didn't deny climate fluctuated, only that it was man-induced and controllable.

This is not about “admitting” anything or ascribing causes. Global warming (let’s call it what it is) is well known and intelligent people not are wondering if it’s real. This is all about politics and who gets to set the rules that affect established businesses. When you fall into the trap of arguing about science, political parties, and denial, you’re playing the opposition’s strategy: You’ve become “they”.  Better to ignore the smokescreen and direct your energy toward policies that can reduce carbon emissions throughout the world. Thats the real challenge.

vand

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2024, 09:07:58 AM »
Another tipping point that comes to mind, as it is quite topical for us here in the UK, is how an incumbent government - once it has lost the trust and goodwill of the electorate, has nothing it can do to claw it back and faces destruction at the next election. 

That has happened here in the UK where, between 2016-2024 we have had no fewer than 5 Conservative Prime Ministers..

David Cameron (2010-2016)
Theresa May (2016-2019)
Boris Johnson (2016-2022)
Liz Truss (2022)
Rishi Sunak (2022-current)

Johnson won the 2019 election with a large majority and had the goodwill of the people, but it unravelled between 2021-22 when he was revealed to have taken the piss by hosting parties during lockdown... this was then compounded by the shambolic tenure of Liz Truss who had bonkers economic policies and goes down as the UK's shortest serving PM, and then Sunak picked up the baton but has suffered from constant rebellion from his own party- these series of totally self inflicted wounds meant the people, rightly, view the party as more embroiled in its own affairs than running the country. Also, Sunak is the 2nd PM in a row who wasn't put there by the electorate, and although technically it is legal due to our parliamentary system, morally its questionable and the people don't like that.  The opposition Labour party aren't particularly formidable or popular with middle voters, but they're going to win easily because the current incumbents have complete destroyed the trust of the public, and once that has gone there needs to be a great defeat to punish them electorially and know some sense back into them.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2024, 09:09:53 AM by vand »

meadow lark

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2024, 11:21:16 AM »

I feel this. When taking a course called "Systems in a Man-Machine Environment" we were supposed to write up a short description of an open or closed loop system. I wrote about me freaking out on my first day of class

You win the internet today.
Amazing.

meadow lark

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2024, 11:26:05 AM »
I live in Louisiana - similar to Florida (maybe worse?) in climate.
Everyone thinks we’ve just had a string of bad luck. 
I worry about losing insurance - I may get to the point of trying to sell my house and move and not being able to find a buyer because they can’t get a mortgage without insurance.  I have no plans to pay off my house, in case I have to walk away from it one day.

Ron Scott

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2024, 04:01:40 AM »
Another tipping point that comes to mind, as it is quite topical for us here in the UK, is how an incumbent government - once it has lost the trust and goodwill of the electorate, has nothing it can do to claw it back and faces destruction at the next election. 

That has happened here in the UK where, between 2016-2024 we have had no fewer than 5 Conservative Prime Ministers..

David Cameron (2010-2016)
Theresa May (2016-2019)
Boris Johnson (2016-2022)
Liz Truss (2022)
Rishi Sunak (2022-current)

Johnson won the 2019 election with a large majority and had the goodwill of the people, but it unravelled between 2021-22 when he was revealed to have taken the piss by hosting parties during lockdown... this was then compounded by the shambolic tenure of Liz Truss who had bonkers economic policies and goes down as the UK's shortest serving PM, and then Sunak picked up the baton but has suffered from constant rebellion from his own party- these series of totally self inflicted wounds meant the people, rightly, view the party as more embroiled in its own affairs than running the country. Also, Sunak is the 2nd PM in a row who wasn't put there by the electorate, and although technically it is legal due to our parliamentary system, morally its questionable and the people don't like that.  The opposition Labour party aren't particularly formidable or popular with middle voters, but they're going to win easily because the current incumbents have complete destroyed the trust of the public, and once that has gone there needs to be a great defeat to punish them electorially and know some sense back into them.

Agree. This could be the most important tipping point of our time.

As i watch democracies under strain today throughout the West I’m reminded of the question Lenin posed: Who stands to gain?

vand

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2025, 03:23:26 AM »
I was listening to an interview with Dominic Cummings, one of the few people who actually understands UK politics, and it triggered my memory of starting this thread, and in particular how the political landscape here has reached the tipping point - as widely predicted the Tory party got annihilated at the election last year, with historic lows in the vote share and number of seats won.

Cummings suggest they Tory party may well have already crossed he masterfully termed the the event horizon -- an brilliant analogy for the natural tipping point where the direction of travel and ultimate destination becomes inevitable... "Might be dead"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4KywTnbzA8

« Last Edit: June 02, 2025, 03:39:26 AM by vand »

MarcherLady

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2025, 12:02:21 PM »
I don't think he should get credit for diagnosing the patient as dead when his was one of the hands holding the knife. The arrogance and lack of self-reflection is astonishing.

mistymoney

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2025, 12:14:20 PM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

That's another tipping point.  The insurance companies are using capitalism to signify that the climate is changing yet the State of Florida has banned climate change science from textbooks. Where is the tipping point where Florida capitulates and admits that climate change is happening?

when they are underwater?

classicrando

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2025, 12:17:45 PM »
I think places like Florida will rapidly become uninhabitable. They really should be trying to do more to arrest climate change. They're the ones most affected.

That's another tipping point.  The insurance companies are using capitalism to signify that the climate is changing yet the State of Florida has banned climate change science from textbooks. Where is the tipping point where Florida capitulates and admits that climate change is happening?

when they are underwater?

America's wang is likely to experience significant shrinkage in the next 75 years.

"I told you! This water's really cold!"

JupiterGreen

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2025, 01:08:00 PM »
I know what you mean, maybe it's counter intuitive?  It reminds of this thing I read about weight loss, they call it "the woosh". It's when you are consistently in a calorie deficit and working out but you don't seem to be losing any weight, then all of a sudden "the woosh" happens and your pants are loose. Weightloss is not a stright line either. I would love to know what it is about our biology and/or cultural experiences that prevents most of us from seeing/processing the incremental steps up to the tipping point. I don't know much about the topic but it is fascinating, I'm glad you brought it up.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2025, 06:45:08 PM »

I have been wondering how the insurance industry will change in the future.  Florida and California are the obvious elephants in the room within the US, but climate change impacts may become more common all over and it doesn't look like the present model will continue to work. Insurance companies can only absorb so much and consumers can't afford endless rate hikes.  I don't know if government subsidies will be the answer, but I suspect we will see some significant changes in the insurance industry in the not too distant future.

bacchi

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2025, 08:59:21 PM »

I have been wondering how the insurance industry will change in the future.  Florida and California are the obvious elephants in the room within the US, but climate change impacts may become more common all over and it doesn't look like the present model will continue to work. Insurance companies can only absorb so much and consumers can't afford endless rate hikes.  I don't know if government subsidies will be the answer, but I suspect we will see some significant changes in the insurance industry in the not too distant future.

We could also see migration to the upper midwest states, which are less susceptible to climate change.

Or we could see only the rich own houses and the rest of us rent, at a premium, from those capable of covering climate losses.

Or we could see hurricanes and fires flood and burn away the stick built houses and weather resistant houses built in their place.

Good times.

Dicey

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2025, 11:36:20 PM »

I asked one of my snowbird friends if his insurance had gone up, and he said not only had it more than doubled, but it didn't cover damage from "acts of god", which means hurricanes. He did not renew his policy.

Isn't this only possible if you don't have a mortgage?  I know that my lenders always have required insurance. 

My insurance rates went up 40% this year, living in the opposite corner of the country.
You are correct. The snowbird may have a home base elsewhere that is insured. If their snowbird home blew off the map, it might not be financially  devastating. We briefly considered dropping homeowners insurance when ours doubled, but $2k annually isn't outrageous and we prefer having the liability protection.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2025, 03:48:45 PM »
The climate crisis will illustrate a nice tipping point as weather goes to hell in a handbag much faster than most people expected.  Outrageous storms, floods, heatwaves, freezes, etc.  Insurance companies will get pounded.
Correction: Insurers will increase rates to account for the cost of loss. Insureds will get pounded by the cost of storms, etc.
They can try but they are already finding homeowners simply won't pay.  Floridians are starting to go without insurance.
Florida is a disaster for both auto and home. The drivers are the absolute worst and the insurance rates reflect it. And storms make it almost impossible to make money on HO policies. The state has had their own massive property insurer of last resort for a long time, and the taxpayer is the backstop. You don’t want to be living there when that shit hits the fan. I understand Lloyds even pulled out, or are pulling out, of commercial property.

Can you imagine what Florida will look like if a good percentage of property owners, with half their net worth in the house, get blown away uninsured?
Perhaps the tipping point is for something different than we initially think.

For example, Floridians who refuse to pay sky-high prices for insurance are not a problem for insurance companies, because they reduce the insurance company's exposure to risk, enabling them to stay in Florida earning sky-high premiums from those who are willing to pay. So half the state being uninsured could be a stable system.

The tipping point might be that entire neighborhoods where people went without insurance (or were undercompensated by the collapsed state insurance scheme) become ghost towns of abandoned water damaged houses after a hurricane. This ghettoization might push down property values or it might increase scarcity. I predict the US government eventually pays when Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac guaranteed mortgages default, as people just walk away from their financially and physically underwater homes. Another Hurricane Andrew, for example, might lead to the collapse of the state insurance scheme and hundreds of thousands of foreclosed homes that must be scrapped.

The other tipping point might be the end of our practice of building grade-level stick homes with asphalt shingle roofs in hurricane vulnerable areas. The process described above might lead to people building houses that don't have to be insured by simply changing building materials and techniques in favor of how they do things in the Caribbean. That means more solid concrete houses, strong metal shutters, and concrete slab roofs.

WRT the poor economics of car ownership in Florida, that could easily be resolved right now if people were willing to buy smaller, cheaper cars. The fact that they aren't suggests that automotive costs are nowhere near a tipping point. Or maybe the culture prioritizes cars to the point people are willing to sacrifice indefinitely to live that certain way, which would be a stable state. If the economics or the culture changed, one might see more demand for cheaper cars, taxis, public transit, and work-from-home. So far there is no sign of any significant pressure for change. Perhaps if real incomes dropped 25% we'd hear about alternatives to car culture.

Just Joe

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2025, 01:40:40 PM »
Can you imagine what Florida will look like if a good percentage of property owners, with half their net worth in the house, get blown away uninsured?

The crazy part - we KNOW how to mitigate the climate effects if we start today, right now.

It won't be the cheapest choices at purchase time i.e. need better materials, making more efficient choices, more durable construction methods.

Perhaps a better idea is redeveloping cities and towns so people don't need to drive a car as much, can replace their cars with ebikes and golf carts and is cheaper than rebuilding everything flimsy after each storm.

People in FL will likely just do what they do everywhere else when it gets too expensive, they'll abandon developed places and move away. Sort of like the sailboats I saw in the FL Keys after the previous hurricane. Boats sunken here and there b/c nobody knows who they belong to. Abandoned b/c it was easier and cheaper. And the state wasn't cleaning up the mess either.

I fear they are moving to my state b/c once upon a time it was still affordable until COVID came, then conservative politics and religious groups decided it was a better place to be. Now us regulars are being priced out the real estate market. Wages aren't keeping up. I think DW and I will be okay.

I'd like to see a USA with ~250M people instead of one with ~350M people.

GuitarStv

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2025, 01:46:27 PM »
I'd like to see a USA with ~250M people instead of one with ~350M people.

So you're cheering on RFK?




:P

bmjohnson35

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2025, 02:18:58 PM »

We have our place listed right now and will be looking for a replacement soon.  A simple search for "hurricane proof" home builders brings up a few builders that build more robust homes, but none in the area we plan to purchase.  I think this is really an untapped market.  I suspect more people would pay a little more or buy a little smaller home that was more resilient and more energy efficient. 

It's amazing how humans will ignore issues as long as they can. Laissez-faire never seems to go out of style.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2025, 02:54:21 PM »

We have our place listed right now and will be looking for a replacement soon.  A simple search for "hurricane proof" home builders brings up a few builders that build more robust homes, but none in the area we plan to purchase.  I think this is really an untapped market.  I suspect more people would pay a little more or buy a little smaller home that was more resilient and more energy efficient. 

It's amazing how humans will ignore issues as long as they can. Laissez-faire never seems to go out of style.

Don't count on it.  Here where winter heating is so expensive, a builder was offering energy-efficient houses for a little more.  Despite the long-term savings, most people didn't go for the package.


There is a reason building codes exist.

In Montreal, for example, buildings have to be able to withstand a 5.5 earthquake, because there is a fault line and it does get earthquakes.  For large urban buildings that is expensive.  But better than having major destruction.




Luke Warm

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Re: Natural "Tipping Points"
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2025, 06:12:49 AM »
Out at the beach there are still a bunch of old 1950's era concrete block houses still standing after numerous hurricanes. They are small and built on a slab. They usually just flood and maybe lose some shingles. It still costs money to fix them but nothing like the multi-million dollar homes out there that lose siding and roofs and all that expensive interior stuff. A good number of the houses at the beach are rentals. I don't understand how anyone out there can even get insurance.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!