Author Topic: My life in a Liberal hell hole.  (Read 34109 times)

jim555

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #100 on: July 01, 2019, 05:46:25 PM »
Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

When a crazy story shows up on the news, where is it from? Florida.


Man tries to eat face off of another man? Florida.
Man shoots car and kills someone because the hip-hop was too loud? Florida.
Landing airplane attacked by alligator? Florida.


(It's actually a great state, with nice beaches, but way too hot.)
"Florida man" always returns amazing Google results.  Sometimes I will search it for a chuckle.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #101 on: July 02, 2019, 06:02:13 AM »
Seattle and Portland are quickly following suit, have you visited either lately?  Totally falling apart and are becoming dumps.  Sad stuff, both of these used to be awesome cities.

Honestly I think the issues in big cities have less to do with politics than being big cities.  Especially cities that have grown quickly.  More people are going to = more problems and different problems.  And the more people with problems the more likely you are to actually see them.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #102 on: July 02, 2019, 06:49:30 AM »
Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

I would seriously consider Florida if the ocean was high on my list of priorities. However, and maybe this is because I grew up on the coast, I find it...meh...not that interesting. We live about 2 miles from the beach but almost never go: the water is cold, it's often overcast (the marine layer), and it's crowded and loud. I surfed a bit in college though never really took to it. The ocean is pretty, but I prefer mountains. A quiet lake or stream with a gravel or sand beach in the mountains and I'm happy. Fortunately, there a tons of places in the West with mountains, lakes and streams and plenty of sunshine to choose from :) For the 2-3 times/year we want to go to the ocean we can visit CA, HI, or Cabo.

Florida definitely not for you, then!  And that's ok.  Great thing we live in a big country with tons of awesome places to go.  I personally dislike the mountains, a lot, so Florida is perfect for me.  We do actually have lakes here with sand beaches, too.  Extremely affordable.  But nothing like what you are looking for.  I'm just pure misery if I'm not in tropical weather.

Khaetra

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #103 on: July 02, 2019, 07:19:48 AM »
Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

I would seriously consider Florida if the ocean was high on my list of priorities. However, and maybe this is because I grew up on the coast, I find it...meh...not that interesting. We live about 2 miles from the beach but almost never go: the water is cold, it's often overcast (the marine layer), and it's crowded and loud. I surfed a bit in college though never really took to it. The ocean is pretty, but I prefer mountains. A quiet lake or stream with a gravel or sand beach in the mountains and I'm happy. Fortunately, there a tons of places in the West with mountains, lakes and streams and plenty of sunshine to choose from :) For the 2-3 times/year we want to go to the ocean we can visit CA, HI, or Cabo.

Florida definitely not for you, then!  And that's ok.  Great thing we live in a big country with tons of awesome places to go.  I personally dislike the mountains, a lot, so Florida is perfect for me.  We do actually have lakes here with sand beaches, too.  Extremely affordable.  But nothing like what you are looking for.  I'm just pure misery if I'm not in tropical weather.

I live in FL and I hate it.  I really do.  I hate the heat, humidity and hurricanes.  Living here for 40+ years I have seen so much growth it's unbelievable and really none of it for the good.  You used to be able to actually see the beach when driving A1A, not anymore.  Even my favorite birding spot, which was considered 'grassland' now has what are the cheapest-built houses on tiny lots going for sky-high prices.  The only reason(s) I stay here is my COL is very low, my son can go to college cheaply while living at home and my home is fully paid for.  Plus I hate the idea of trying to find somewhere else and moving.  It's a big reason I travel and maybe someday I will find my personal paradise.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #104 on: July 02, 2019, 08:09:21 AM »
Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

I would seriously consider Florida if the ocean was high on my list of priorities. However, and maybe this is because I grew up on the coast, I find it...meh...not that interesting. We live about 2 miles from the beach but almost never go: the water is cold, it's often overcast (the marine layer), and it's crowded and loud. I surfed a bit in college though never really took to it. The ocean is pretty, but I prefer mountains. A quiet lake or stream with a gravel or sand beach in the mountains and I'm happy. Fortunately, there a tons of places in the West with mountains, lakes and streams and plenty of sunshine to choose from :) For the 2-3 times/year we want to go to the ocean we can visit CA, HI, or Cabo.

Florida definitely not for you, then!  And that's ok.  Great thing we live in a big country with tons of awesome places to go.  I personally dislike the mountains, a lot, so Florida is perfect for me.  We do actually have lakes here with sand beaches, too.  Extremely affordable.  But nothing like what you are looking for.  I'm just pure misery if I'm not in tropical weather.

I live in FL and I hate it.  I really do.  I hate the heat, humidity and hurricanes.  Living here for 40+ years I have seen so much growth it's unbelievable and really none of it for the good.  You used to be able to actually see the beach when driving A1A, not anymore.  Even my favorite birding spot, which was considered 'grassland' now has what are the cheapest-built houses on tiny lots going for sky-high prices.  The only reason(s) I stay here is my COL is very low, my son can go to college cheaply while living at home and my home is fully paid for.  Plus I hate the idea of trying to find somewhere else and moving.  It's a big reason I travel and maybe someday I will find my personal paradise.

Florida is HUGE.  It's bigger than nearly 75% of the countries in the world.  Almost the same population as Australia.  You talk about too much population growth and building over wilderness, but the Everglades is the largest wilderness east of the Mississippi river and 3rd largest national park in the lower 48 States.  It seems you don't like your tiny slice of Florida very much, but kind of silly to put the entire State in such a small bubble.  If you don't like your spot in Florida, just go to another.  Personally, I like the growth.  A lot more diversity, all the best stores and entertainment, etc.  And if I want to go to an area with very little growth and super laid back, we head up to the "heartland" where we have our second home.  Very old Florida, quiet.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 08:11:09 AM by EngagedToFIRE »

Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #105 on: July 02, 2019, 10:01:53 AM »
I live in alberta; I don't even want to calculate my tax percentage.  I wonder if it's worse than the American liberal hellhole states, despite being the most conservative province. 

Laserjet3051

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #106 on: July 02, 2019, 10:13:09 AM »
Taxation is highly specific to one’s situation and state. From a moderate income, Mustachian perspective, California might not be all that bad of a deal. I would find the crowds and restrictions on personal behavior stifling and have no interest in living there. Even though it’s very beautiful.

If you want to talk about a state where you’ll get screwed 15 ways to Tuesday, then look no further than my home state of Virginia. VIrginia is supposedly a “moderate” to low tax state. At least according to those who write articles about it and don’t live there. But as always the devil is in the details. I pay about 50% of what I pay in Federal income taxes as Virginia state income taxes. There are all sorts of cute little quirks that raise the bill. Such as the top marginal rate kicking in at somewhere around $19,000.  And forcing you to use the piddling Virginia standard deduction when you don’t itemize Federal.

But it gets better. We not only have property taxes on real estate, we have it on cars. Plus registration fees. Plus tacked on parking fees. But wait! There’s more! Do you like to eat out? The restaurant tax is 15% or more depending on the city. Oh and we do have sales taxes of groceries, albeit at a reduced rate.

But let’s look at all the cool stuff we get in exchange: traffic jams, toll roads, and schools that generally suck unless you want to live in the suburbs and commute for 45 minutes. Plus, the entire state is basically a speed trap.

You have to dig deeper when looking at any state; it’s a package deal. Geo-arbitrage isn’t just for Californians.

Sales tax on groceries? Really? As in real food, not junk food? If so, that is hard to swallow and seems to go against the core of our progressive tax system in the USA. At first, I thought, there is no way that VA levies a heavier tax burden than CA on its average citizens, but with your purported grocery tax, you just may have a valid claim here.

Davnasty

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #107 on: July 02, 2019, 12:42:26 PM »
Taxation is highly specific to one’s situation and state. From a moderate income, Mustachian perspective, California might not be all that bad of a deal. I would find the crowds and restrictions on personal behavior stifling and have no interest in living there. Even though it’s very beautiful.

If you want to talk about a state where you’ll get screwed 15 ways to Tuesday, then look no further than my home state of Virginia. VIrginia is supposedly a “moderate” to low tax state. At least according to those who write articles about it and don’t live there. But as always the devil is in the details. I pay about 50% of what I pay in Federal income taxes as Virginia state income taxes. There are all sorts of cute little quirks that raise the bill. Such as the top marginal rate kicking in at somewhere around $19,000.  And forcing you to use the piddling Virginia standard deduction when you don’t itemize Federal.

But it gets better. We not only have property taxes on real estate, we have it on cars. Plus registration fees. Plus tacked on parking fees. But wait! There’s more! Do you like to eat out? The restaurant tax is 15% or more depending on the city. Oh and we do have sales taxes of groceries, albeit at a reduced rate.

But let’s look at all the cool stuff we get in exchange: traffic jams, toll roads, and schools that generally suck unless you want to live in the suburbs and commute for 45 minutes. Plus, the entire state is basically a speed trap.

You have to dig deeper when looking at any state; it’s a package deal. Geo-arbitrage isn’t just for Californians.

Sales tax on groceries? Really? As in real food, not junk food? If so, that is hard to swallow and seems to go against the core of our progressive tax system in the USA. At first, I thought, there is no way that VA levies a heavier tax burden than CA on its average citizens, but with your purported grocery tax, you just may have a valid claim here.

16 states have some amount of sales tax on groceries.

https://blog.taxjar.com/states-grocery-items-tax-exempt/

pecunia

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #108 on: July 02, 2019, 05:25:58 PM »

- SNIP -

But let’s look at all the cool stuff we get in exchange: traffic jams, toll roads, and schools that generally suck unless you want to live in the suburbs and commute for 45 minutes. Plus, the entire state is basically a speed trap.

-SNIP-

You've sold me - I don't even want to drive through Virginia.  Wow!

Just Joe

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2019, 08:15:59 AM »
Don't forget the VA vehicle inspections - that's still a thing too isn't it? I lived there for a couple of years and bought a car shortly before I moved out of VA. The hoops they wanted to force me through on the inspection were entertaining. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to share the road with junkyard escapees but the inspector was going over the little frugal go-cart of a car that I bought like he was prepping it for space travel. I moved to my next address in another state and swapped out the thermostat which was sticking and replaced six inches of rotted vacuum hose. That inspector would have had me spending hundreds of dollars in questionable repairs. 

Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2019, 01:21:51 PM »
Here are last year's canadian tax brackets:
15 percent on your first $45,282 of taxable income;
20.5 percent on your next $45,281 of taxable income, that is, on the portion of your taxable income over $45,282 up to $90,563;
26 percent on the next $49,825 of taxable income, that is, on the portion of your taxable income over $90,563 up to $140,388;
29 percent on the next $59,612 of taxable income, that is, on the portion of your taxable income over $140,388 up to $200,000
33 percent of taxable income over $200,000

So I paid 18ish percent, plus we have 5% general sales tax in this province.  Most provinces have an additional 5-7% for provincial sales tax.

Is this comparable to US hellholes?

ysette9

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #111 on: July 03, 2019, 02:44:15 PM »
US tax brackets depend on whether you file single or married, and whether it is earned income or investment income (long term capital gains). For earned income, here is the table:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/tax-brackets.aspx/amp/

The comparisons are imperfect though because there are some very important things you get in Canada for laying taxes that we in the US have to pay for ourselves. Healthcare, university, and parental leave are three big ones that come to mind. Depending on the province, affordable childcare/preschool is also a benefit you may get that pretty much doesn’t exist in the US at all. So life for us can be a lot more expensive and a lot more risky. Canadians don’t go bankrupt due to medical bills. Canadians don’t mortgage their retirement in order to send their kids to college.

Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2019, 03:20:12 PM »
US tax brackets depend on whether you file single or married, and whether it is earned income or investment income (long term capital gains). For earned income, here is the table:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/tax-brackets.aspx/amp/

The comparisons are imperfect though because there are some very important things you get in Canada for laying taxes that we in the US have to pay for ourselves. Healthcare, university, and parental leave are three big ones that come to mind. Depending on the province, affordable childcare/preschool is also a benefit you may get that pretty much doesn’t exist in the US at all. So life for us can be a lot more expensive and a lot more risky. Canadians don’t go bankrupt due to medical bills. Canadians don’t mortgage their retirement in order to send their kids to college.
Glad to see the grass appears greener from your side of the fence.  The healthcare system in many ways is just a great opportunity to wait in lines, or get medical care abroad.  I don't support childcare benefit.  Maybe if I weren't taxed so much I could afford to have kids myself!

Canadian parents mortgage their retirements so their kids can afford property.  Its not as rosy as you might think up here.

ysette9

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2019, 03:38:49 PM »
I participate heavily in the baby/pregnancy/TTC chat thread in the Journals section. We have people pregnant and trying to get pregnant and parenting littles all across the world. It has been eye opening to see how that whole experience compares whether you live in the US, Canada, England, Australia, and other places. Through example after example it has become more clear to me how much harder it is to be a parent and would-be parent in the US. I get the sense there is this general sense of pity for us in how stingy our system is and the lack of support when we are at our most vulnerable.

The experiences of ladies who encounter trouble is most telling. Scary diagnoses in other countries are scary because you don’t know what the outcome will be and whether your little one will be okay in the end of not. Scary diagnoses in the US are doubly scary because in addition to all the medical concerns, you have to worry about getting time off to care for your medical needs, you have to worry about job protection while off, you have to worry about paying the bills while off because you generally have no paid leave, you have to worry about being able to pay for whatever medical procedures are recommended because they may or may not be covered and you can’t know that in advance or what it will cost, and you likely end up having to fight with the insurance company to convince them to cover what they should. That is in addition to the average lower quality of care and, if you are in a bad state, the restrictions in care that is available to you. One of our friends from Canada had her doctor advise her to avoid traveling to many of the states in the US that provide sub-quality care while pregnant due to reduced access and average poorer outcomes.

My liberal hellhole of a state provided me paid family leave to me and my husband so we could care for our premies. It provided me job protection when my FLMA ran out before my babies had even reached their due dates. It provides paid maternity leave before you reach your due date so you aren’t dragging your exhausted self to work in the third trimester in a desperate attempt to preserve what little vacation you have for after the baby comes. It has expanded Medicaid so people who make too little for ACA subsidies but too much otherwise for Medicaid aren’t left uninsured.

May you be so lucky as to never find yourself in a vulnerable position, as happens to so many people for reasons outside their control.

pecunia

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2019, 04:05:21 PM »
Gas prices in Canada?  They fool you because they dribble it out by liters (1.05669 quarts).  So you have to multiply by 4 and consider the exchange rate.  You feel better if you don't.

ysette9

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #115 on: July 03, 2019, 04:42:33 PM »
My bike doesn’t take gas

Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2019, 05:42:27 PM »
I participate heavily in the baby/pregnancy/TTC chat thread in the Journals section. We have people pregnant and trying to get pregnant and parenting littles all across the world. It has been eye opening to see how that whole experience compares whether you live in the US, Canada, England, Australia, and other places. Through example after example it has become more clear to me how much harder it is to be a parent and would-be parent in the US. I get the sense there is this general sense of pity for us in how stingy our system is and the lack of support when we are at our most vulnerable.
The vulnerability should not be much of a surprise, and should be hedged for, much like MMM advocates having an emergency stash of money.  Who's burden is this vulnerability, considering that producing children is optional now?

Quote
The experiences of ladies who encounter trouble is most telling. Scary diagnoses in other countries are scary because you don’t know what the outcome will be and whether your little one will be okay in the end of not. Scary diagnoses in the US are doubly scary because in addition to all the medical concerns, you have to worry about getting time off to care for your medical needs, you have to worry about job protection while off, you have to worry about paying the bills while off because you generally have no paid leave, you have to worry about being able to pay for whatever medical procedures are recommended because they may or may not be covered and you can’t know that in advance or what it will cost, and you likely end up having to fight with the insurance company to convince them to cover what they should. That is in addition to the average lower quality of care and, if you are in a bad state, the restrictions in care that is available to you. One of our friends from Canada had her doctor advise her to avoid traveling to many of the states in the US that provide sub-quality care while pregnant due to reduced access and average poorer outcomes.
Do you "worry" about digging a well when you start getting thirsty?  Perhaps you should worry before the crisis hits.

Quote
My liberal hellhole of a state provided me paid family leave to me and my husband so we could care for our premies. It provided me job protection when my FLMA ran out before my babies had even reached their due dates. It provides paid maternity leave before you reach your due date so you aren’t dragging your exhausted self to work in the third trimester in a desperate attempt to preserve what little vacation you have for after the baby comes. It has expanded Medicaid so people who make too little for ACA subsidies but too much otherwise for Medicaid aren’t left uninsured.
Glad to hear the childless were kind enough to help pay for this.  Perhaps they, too, could one day increase their post-tax income to a point where they could also afford children.

Quote
May you be so lucky as to never find yourself in a vulnerable position, as happens to so many people for reasons outside their control.
Well that control thing is a pretty big deal.  Many people do not go out of their way to control risk, which is probably where a lot of our disagreement stems from.  Also, I am high earning, ambitious, competitive and single, male and young-ish, so it's reasonable that I would disagree with you.  Perhaps when I am older I will change my mind, but as it currently stands, I'd prefer my wealth stay in my own hands.

So I don't sound like a complete flippant monster in this post, I'll point out that high value people like skilled medical practitioners should have a right to their own negotiation, rather than having their skills bestowed upon the masses since they are a right(not sure how you can have a right to someone's labor...).  Also, a lot of buying power leaves Canada since people can't pay for an MRI here, for instance.  That spending would be better off staying within the border if possible, but it doesn't.

Finally, in my experience, it takes about ten pages of an economics book to realize why socialism sucks--namely, because it has no framework to deal with scarcity(who gets beachfront property?  There isn't enough of it for everyone), and it has no ability to ascertain price, so price just careens upward.   

mm1970

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2019, 06:27:50 PM »
Quote
Well that control thing is a pretty big deal.  Many people do not go out of their way to control risk, which is probably where a lot of our disagreement stems from.  Also, I am high earning, ambitious, competitive and single, male and young-ish, so it's reasonable that I would disagree with you.  Perhaps when I am older I will change my mind, but as it currently stands, I'd prefer my wealth stay in my own hands.

And thus, you are in a very very privileged position.  I know people like you.  I used to be you (well, not the male part).  It only takes a tiny bit of "real life" hitting anyone that you love to wake up.  You may never do so, in fact.  Survival bias and all that.

I've known too many people be utterly destroyed by car accidents, bicycle accidents, cancer diagnoses, other medical diagnoses, etc.  It's quite lovely when 40 years of working and saving as a company director or VP can land you in the poor house if you get sick before Medicare kicks in.

ysette9

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #118 on: July 03, 2019, 07:38:39 PM »
Quote
Well that control thing is a pretty big deal.  Many people do not go out of their way to control risk, which is probably where a lot of our disagreement stems from.  Also, I am high earning, ambitious, competitive and single, male and young-ish, so it's reasonable that I would disagree with you.  Perhaps when I am older I will change my mind, but as it currently stands, I'd prefer my wealth stay in my own hands.

And thus, you are in a very very privileged position.  I know people like you.  I used to be you (well, not the male part).  It only takes a tiny bit of "real life" hitting anyone that you love to wake up.  You may never do so, in fact.  Survival bias and all that.

I've known too many people be utterly destroyed by car accidents, bicycle accidents, cancer diagnoses, other medical diagnoses, etc.  It's quite lovely when 40 years of working and saving as a company director or VP can land you in the poor house if you get sick before Medicare kicks in.
I was going to say something similar. These posts strike me as coming from a position of incredible privilege, one that apparently makes it impossible to imagine oneself in someone else shoes. I come from a position of privilege, though not on the top of the food chain like a young, white, healthy heterosexual male. When life always serves you up the best of everything it can be easy to imagine that everyone else can be successful in life through hard work and grit alone. This totally ignores the role of opportunity and luck and so many other things that make life not a level playing field.

In my mind the point of us human animals banding together to form societies is that we are all better off helping each other than going at it alone. One of the great things about banding together is being able to insure individuals against catastrophic risk. This allows people to be creative and entrepreneurial and invest in themselves and their futures instead of spending all of their energy trying to avoid disaster. I read a study a while back that compared people of similar ages, backgrounds, and ancestry in the US and England. It found that people in England on average lived longer and healthier, controlling for all sorts of things you might immediately expect to influence those outcomes. The study authors surmised that people in England had a lower overall stress level in life because they had a safety net that prevented catastrophic ruin from things like a medical emergency, and the extra constant stress led to lower life outcomes for the counterparts in the US.

Again, hopefully you will stay lucky, but things can happen to healthy, young, educated, financially smart people at any moment. It happened to me and I am incredibly grateful for the support I did get from my state and also irritated that most people in most developed nations get better, and also sad for those who are in more Ned and get so little. Disaster struck healthy, hard-working, frugal people in my family and changed their lives profoundly. You can stack the odds more in your favor by your actions but shit happens to everyone. We can choose to provide backstops and help people get back on their feet when that happens or we can sit in our ivory towers and tsk tsk people for not having saved more or eaten more kale or been born white and male.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2019, 10:14:22 PM »
Here are last year's canadian tax brackets:
15 percent on your first $45,282 of taxable income;
20.5 percent on your next $45,281 of taxable income, that is, on the portion of your taxable income over $45,282 up to $90,563;
26 percent on the next $49,825 of taxable income, that is, on the portion of your taxable income over $90,563 up to $140,388;
29 percent on the next $59,612 of taxable income, that is, on the portion of your taxable income over $140,388 up to $200,000
33 percent of taxable income over $200,000

So I paid 18ish percent, plus we have 5% general sales tax in this province.  Most provinces have an additional 5-7% for provincial sales tax.

Is this comparable to US hellholes?

Try Australia.

37% on incomes over $90,000 and $45% on income over $180,000.

When I calculated my total tax take (income, Medicare, sales, land, council rates, stamp duty) it didn't make for pretty reading. I pay more in total taxes than I do in any other spending category...put together...doubled.

Fortunately our government today is signing off on the most significant tax cuts ever instituted in our country. Thank god for that. How good is Australia!

pecunia

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2019, 05:22:53 AM »

- SNIP -

Fortunately our government today is signing off on the most significant tax cuts ever instituted in our country. Thank god for that. How good is Australia!

Be careful.  I don't live in Australia, but that money must have been paying for something.  What is offset with the tax cut or are they being foolish like the country I live in and will borrow from China?

habanero

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2019, 05:52:18 AM »
or are they being foolish like the country I live in and will borrow from China?

A common misconception. About 2/3 of US government debt is owned by domestic investors. Japan owns almost as much US govt debt as China but noone ever talks about Japan funding the US deficit.

So first and foremost the US government borrows from America, not China. China owns about 5% of the debt.


Bloop Bloop

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #122 on: July 04, 2019, 06:04:05 AM »

- SNIP -

Fortunately our government today is signing off on the most significant tax cuts ever instituted in our country. Thank god for that. How good is Australia!

Be careful.  I don't live in Australia, but that money must have been paying for something.  What is offset with the tax cut or are they being foolish like the country I live in and will borrow from China?

I assume we will reduce the surfeit of middle class welfare in this country.

Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #123 on: July 04, 2019, 07:14:34 AM »
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Well that control thing is a pretty big deal.  Many people do not go out of their way to control risk, which is probably where a lot of our disagreement stems from.  Also, I am high earning, ambitious, competitive and single, male and young-ish, so it's reasonable that I would disagree with you.  Perhaps when I am older I will change my mind, but as it currently stands, I'd prefer my wealth stay in my own hands.

And thus, you are in a very very privileged position.  I know people like you.  I used to be you (well, not the male part).  It only takes a tiny bit of "real life" hitting anyone that you love to wake up.  You may never do so, in fact.  Survival bias and all that.

I've known too many people be utterly destroyed by car accidents, bicycle accidents, cancer diagnoses, other medical diagnoses, etc.  It's quite lovely when 40 years of working and saving as a company director or VP can land you in the poor house if you get sick before Medicare kicks in.
I was going to say something similar. These posts strike me as coming from a position of incredible privilege, one that apparently makes it impossible to imagine oneself in someone else shoes. I come from a position of privilege, though not on the top of the food chain like a young, white, healthy heterosexual male. When life always serves you up the best of everything it can be easy to imagine that everyone else can be successful in life through hard work and grit alone. This totally ignores the role of opportunity and luck and so many other things that make life not a level playing field.

In my mind the point of us human animals banding together to form societies is that we are all better off helping each other than going at it alone. One of the great things about banding together is being able to insure individuals against catastrophic risk. This allows people to be creative and entrepreneurial and invest in themselves and their futures instead of spending all of their energy trying to avoid disaster. I read a study a while back that compared people of similar ages, backgrounds, and ancestry in the US and England. It found that people in England on average lived longer and healthier, controlling for all sorts of things you might immediately expect to influence those outcomes. The study authors surmised that people in England had a lower overall stress level in life because they had a safety net that prevented catastrophic ruin from things like a medical emergency, and the extra constant stress led to lower life outcomes for the counterparts in the US.

Again, hopefully you will stay lucky, but things can happen to healthy, young, educated, financially smart people at any moment. It happened to me and I am incredibly grateful for the support I did get from my state and also irritated that most people in most developed nations get better, and also sad for those who are in more Ned and get so little. Disaster struck healthy, hard-working, frugal people in my family and changed their lives profoundly. You can stack the odds more in your favor by your actions but shit happens to everyone. We can choose to provide backstops and help people get back on their feet when that happens or we can sit in our ivory towers and tsk tsk people for not having saved more or eaten more kale or been born white and male.

Same old rhetoric.  No comments on price discovery or scarcity, as usual, just comments about nebulous "kindness" and "cooperation".  What about the value of competition, and rewarding those who thrive?  Redistributed incomes DO cut down tall poppies(or at least put weight on them), can this at least be acknowledged?

No comments regarding my statement that Canadians are taking their medical spending abroad, or how doctors have their bargaining removed from them...  Doctors must be too "privileged".

The comments on my presumed race, or sexual preference, or so-called "privilege" will be discarded as personal slights.  This is no way to form an argument.

It's very interesting how this forum and the man who inspired it can advocate so strongly for personal fiscal responsibility but when a poster advocates for the same idea in a more general way he becomes a bogeyman.

As I suspected, Canada has even more severe income taxes than even California, which was the initial thought I was pondering.  Which is interesting due to California's reputation for being socialist.


Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #124 on: July 04, 2019, 07:17:04 AM »
Try Australia.

37% on incomes over $90,000 and $45% on income over $180,000.

When I calculated my total tax take (income, Medicare, sales, land, council rates, stamp duty) it didn't make for pretty reading. I pay more in total taxes than I do in any other spending category...put together...doubled.

Fortunately our government today is signing off on the most significant tax cuts ever instituted in our country. Thank god for that. How good is Australia!
Wow.  I know little about Australia but given your COL/buying power, those tax rates are pretty incredible.  If you make double the minimum wage are you paying 37% tax?

Bloop Bloop

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #125 on: July 04, 2019, 07:39:02 AM »
Try Australia.

37% on incomes over $90,000 and $45% on income over $180,000.

When I calculated my total tax take (income, Medicare, sales, land, council rates, stamp duty) it didn't make for pretty reading. I pay more in total taxes than I do in any other spending category...put together...doubled.

Fortunately our government today is signing off on the most significant tax cuts ever instituted in our country. Thank god for that. How good is Australia!
Wow.  I know little about Australia but given your COL/buying power, those tax rates are pretty incredible.  If you make double the minimum wage are you paying 37% tax?

Min wage (full-time) is $37,000. Double that puts you at $74,000. That is in the 32% (I think) marginal bracket. You'd need another $15k or so to get to the 37% marginal rate category. Keep in mind we have a 2% Medicare levy too so it's +2% to each bracket in reality.

FIREstache

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #126 on: July 04, 2019, 08:19:03 AM »
I'm in the US.  Middle class income ~$100K income.

22% federal income tax, 15.3% payroll tax, 5% state income tax, 15% federal LTCG tax.  Then about 17% of my retirement income will go toward property taxes.  Then there's the ever increasing sales taxes 10%, gas taxes (just doubled here), additional local taxes, and increasing government fees for things like car registrations and driver's licenses.  The taxes are completely out of hand.

Greystache

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #127 on: July 04, 2019, 09:16:44 AM »
I just noticed that this old thread started up again recently. It's funny to see how it evolved from the original point I was trying to make. Don't believe "conventional wisdom" about taxes. If you are retired and living frugally, your tax situation may be completely different than when you were working and making big bucks. I paid some seriously high taxes when I was working and had a much higher income. I always assumed I would move out of California when I retired to reduce my tax exposure. That was the conventional wisdom. When I was retired, I ran the actual numbers and I was shocked at how my tax situation had changed and how CA had become less expensive than some places that one assumed must be cheaper. I apologize for the click bait title that seems to have injected more politics into the discussion than I intended. It just seemed at the time that much of the conventional wisdom regarding tax rates was, at least in part, politically motivated and I wanted to challenge that.

GuitarStv

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #128 on: July 04, 2019, 09:21:29 AM »
My bike doesn’t take gas

So what happens when you fart?  Bike explosion?  :P

ysette9

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #129 on: July 04, 2019, 09:47:28 AM »
My bike doesn’t take gas

So what happens when you fart?  Bike explosion?  :P
I save those for the office

GuitarStv

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #130 on: July 04, 2019, 09:50:59 AM »
Wise way to ensure elbow room in the elevator.

iris lily

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #131 on: July 04, 2019, 10:04:49 AM »
...Our friends in other states have to keep working until labor starts, no matter how physically/mentally/emotionally exhausted they are because there is no leave, no coverage, no protection.
FMLA is not state specific.  Pregnancy induced disability is one cause, birth etc. is another.  My co-worker <in Iowa> was on bed-rest for 3 months prior to her birth, then had recovery time afterwards.  She filed for FMLA, and her job was protected, and she was able to leverage all her sick time and vacation pay during her leave, and all her benefits continued through leave.  Your comment is not factual.

Also, Iowa has a fairly large income offset before you start paying tax.

Also, this whole conversation belongs in a forum that allows discussing political matters, not General.

 Please. Just understand the point of this thread is flyover country bad, sunny California good.

pecunia

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #132 on: July 04, 2019, 03:53:19 PM »
I'm in the US.  Middle class income ~$100K income.

22% federal income tax, 15.3% payroll tax, 5% state income tax, 15% federal LTCG tax.  Then about 17% of my retirement income will go toward property taxes.  Then there's the ever increasing sales taxes 10%, gas taxes (just doubled here), additional local taxes, and increasing government fees for things like car registrations and driver's licenses.  The taxes are completely out of hand.

Hmmmmm,..... You think maybe lowering that Federal corporate income tax was not so good?  Maybe that money could pay for some necessary services and cut you a break.

I did a quick check and could not find a state with a 10 % sales tax.  You must have it bumped with a city sales tax.  Too bad.

I did find this article giving sales tax costs in various states.  I was very surprised to see high sales tax rates in the Southern states.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/02/27/sales-tax-state-highest-lowest-us/39110781/


fuzzy math

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #133 on: July 04, 2019, 04:48:12 PM »
So I don't sound like a complete flippant monster in this post, I'll point out that high value people like skilled medical practitioners should have a right to their own negotiation, rather than having their skills bestowed upon the masses since they are a right(not sure how you can have a right to someone's labor...).  Also, a lot of buying power leaves Canada since people can't pay for an MRI here, for instance.  That spending would be better off staying within the border if possible, but it doesn't.

Finally, in my experience, it takes about ten pages of an economics book to realize why socialism sucks--namely, because it has no framework to deal with scarcity(who gets beachfront property?  There isn't enough of it for everyone), and it has no ability to ascertain price, so price just careens upward.

People in Vancouver would agree with you that housing costs are the same across Canada, due to socialism.

Money being spent on healthcare in Canada is at cost since it is a public benefit. Therefore, some would see people paying elsewhere as money saved. Are you really arguing that your country is missing out on money due to people not being able to pay inflated prices for something that they're already paying for through taxes? It sounds like the same tired argument that people say in the US, which is "if you like the govt so much, why don't you just send the IRS some extra money?" It makes no sense.

FIREstache

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #134 on: July 04, 2019, 05:15:53 PM »
I'm in the US.  Middle class income ~$100K income.

22% federal income tax, 15.3% payroll tax, 5% state income tax, 15% federal LTCG tax.  Then about 17% of my retirement income will go toward property taxes.  Then there's the ever increasing sales taxes 10%, gas taxes (just doubled here), additional local taxes, and increasing government fees for things like car registrations and driver's licenses.  The taxes are completely out of hand.

Hmmmmm,..... You think maybe lowering that Federal corporate income tax was not so good?  Maybe that money could pay for some necessary services and cut you a break.

I did a quick check and could not find a state with a 10 % sales tax.  You must have it bumped with a city sales tax.  Too bad.

I did find this article giving sales tax costs in various states.  I was very surprised to see high sales tax rates in the Southern states.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/02/27/sales-tax-state-highest-lowest-us/39110781/

I rounded off the total sales tax.  It actually varies with different things and depending on what city I'm purchasing in.

I don't recall commenting on the corporate tax cuts.  I think they are a positive thing for business and my investments.  Maybe the tax cuts for the rich were too much though.  Nothing would stop our state government from hiking taxes and fees, though.

Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #135 on: July 04, 2019, 05:59:50 PM »
Money being spent on healthcare in Canada is at cost since it is a public benefit. Therefore, some would see people paying elsewhere as money saved.
fuzzy math indeed.  How is "cost" established without a market pricing it?

Quote
Are you really arguing that your country is missing out on money due to people not being able to pay inflated prices for something that they're already paying for through taxes? It sounds like the same tired argument that people say in the US, which is "if you like the govt so much, why don't you just send the IRS some extra money?" It makes no sense.
My country is missing out on the cash flow and demand for services that they are unable to offer due to socialist medicine.  This demand would lead to higher capitalization and development if it were fulfilled within the country.  It would lead to jobs and a lower level of expense for the patient.  Your allegation that the private sector produces more inflated prices than a public sector strategy needs some citations.  Price discovery doesn't occur without competition.

No one wants to touch the idea about taking doctors' negotiating power away?  We should just ignore this?


We have a well known issue in Canada known as "brain-drain", where high performing professionals quickly depart Canada for greener pastures.  Is this not a loss?

scottish

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #136 on: July 04, 2019, 06:14:51 PM »
Money being spent on healthcare in Canada is at cost since it is a public benefit. Therefore, some would see people paying elsewhere as money saved.
fuzzy math indeed.  How is "cost" established without a market pricing it?

Quote
Are you really arguing that your country is missing out on money due to people not being able to pay inflated prices for something that they're already paying for through taxes? It sounds like the same tired argument that people say in the US, which is "if you like the govt so much, why don't you just send the IRS some extra money?" It makes no sense.
My country is missing out on the cash flow and demand for services that they are unable to offer due to socialist medicine.  This demand would lead to higher capitalization and development if it were fulfilled within the country.  It would lead to jobs and a lower level of expense for the patient.  Your allegation that the private sector produces more inflated prices than a public sector strategy needs some citations.  Price discovery doesn't occur without competition.

No one wants to touch the idea about taking doctors' negotiating power away?  We should just ignore this?


We have a well known issue in Canada known as "brain-drain", where high performing professionals quickly depart Canada for greener pastures.  Is this not a loss?

Yes it's a loss.   Both my kids are considering moving to the states because we don't have very many interesting jobs in the technology sector.    It's great that they're self sufficient already, but too bad they can't stay here and contribute.

I don't think doctors have much negotiating power in Ontario.   They can work for the rates set by the government, they can leave the profession, or they can move.   However, our tax dollars paid for much of the medical training doctors received.    There should be a quid pro quo in here somewhere.

The government isn't very good at adjusting the rates to market forces.   Thankfully most doctors are in the profession because they want to help people, not because they want to get rich.   You 'muricans can have all the doctors who just want to get rich, it's ok.     

Wrenchturner

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #137 on: July 04, 2019, 06:23:43 PM »
Yes it's a loss.   Both my kids are considering moving to the states because we don't have very many interesting jobs in the technology sector.    It's great that they're self sufficient already, but too bad they can't stay here and contribute.
There's a chicken/egg element to it and it definitely covers more territory than medicine.  And it's not only socialism that is contributing to it, Canadians seem to be risk-averse and we are not very homogenized as a society I'd say, plus it's a big empty country.  And the Bay area isn't that far away so some amount of brain-drain is to be expected.

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I don't think doctors have much negotiating power in Ontario.   They can work for the rates set by the government, they can leave the profession, or they can move.   However, our tax dollars paid for much of the medical training doctors received.    There should be a quid pro quo in here somewhere.
A good point.  I wonder how much of our tax dollars actually paid for their training, compared to countries like the US.

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The government isn't very good at adjusting the rates to market forces.   Thankfully most doctors are in the profession because they want to help people, not because they want to get rich.   You 'muricans can have all the doctors who just want to get rich, it's ok.   
Getting rich is such a dirty phrase.  Some people deserve to have high wealth, it's likely that highly skilled doctors are included.  Wealth is also about status games, and we play those all the time.  Not everyone who wants to get rich does it at the expense of their patients/customers/clients, etc.  Some people get rich because they are ambitious and capable.

scottish

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #138 on: July 04, 2019, 07:43:44 PM »
Yes it's a loss.   Both my kids are considering moving to the states because we don't have very many interesting jobs in the technology sector.    It's great that they're self sufficient already, but too bad they can't stay here and contribute.
There's a chicken/egg element to it and it definitely covers more territory than medicine.  And it's not only socialism that is contributing to it, Canadians seem to be risk-averse and we are not very homogenized as a society I'd say, plus it's a big empty country.  And the Bay area isn't that far away so some amount of brain-drain is to be expected.

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I don't think doctors have much negotiating power in Ontario.   They can work for the rates set by the government, they can leave the profession, or they can move.   However, our tax dollars paid for much of the medical training doctors received.    There should be a quid pro quo in here somewhere.
A good point.  I wonder how much of our tax dollars actually paid for their training, compared to countries like the US.

Quote
The government isn't very good at adjusting the rates to market forces.   Thankfully most doctors are in the profession because they want to help people, not because they want to get rich.   You 'muricans can have all the doctors who just want to get rich, it's ok.   
Getting rich is such a dirty phrase.  Some people deserve to have high wealth, it's likely that highly skilled doctors are included.  Wealth is also about status games, and we play those all the time.  Not everyone who wants to get rich does it at the expense of their patients/customers/clients, etc.  Some people get rich because they are ambitious and capable.

You're right - that's my personal bias against status seekers.    It was the roman empire, wasn't it, that first allowed competent people to succeed?   I think it's very important to keep the most competent people.

fuzzy math

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #139 on: July 04, 2019, 09:20:41 PM »
Money being spent on healthcare in Canada is at cost since it is a public benefit. Therefore, some would see people paying elsewhere as money saved.
fuzzy math indeed.  How is "cost" established without a market pricing it?

Quote
Are you really arguing that your country is missing out on money due to people not being able to pay inflated prices for something that they're already paying for through taxes? It sounds like the same tired argument that people say in the US, which is "if you like the govt so much, why don't you just send the IRS some extra money?" It makes no sense.
My country is missing out on the cash flow and demand for services that they are unable to offer due to socialist medicine.  This demand would lead to higher capitalization and development if it were fulfilled within the country.  It would lead to jobs and a lower level of expense for the patient.  Your allegation that the private sector produces more inflated prices than a public sector strategy needs some citations.  Price discovery doesn't occur without competition.

No one wants to touch the idea about taking doctors' negotiating power away?  We should just ignore this?


We have a well known issue in Canada known as "brain-drain", where high performing professionals quickly depart Canada for greener pastures.  Is this not a loss?

The market did price it. In your case, the govt sets the market rate.

Your assertion that private healthcare would cost less for patients requires some citations.

My assertion that a patient paying out of pocket for a test that their taxes and publicly funded service already provides causes an inflated cost to the patient requires no citation.

pecunia

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #140 on: July 05, 2019, 05:27:18 AM »
I can't see how healthcare is dragging Canada down unless you are a doctor and I suspect the Canadian government pays it's medical personnel pretty well.

If you are not paying for health insurance in the US, well you could be in a very bad way financially and ruin the rest of your life.  So, from a distance, the Canadian way seems more humane.

As far as the money thing, we, in the US are already paying a higher effective tax since we pay more in premiums to the insurance people than a Canadian would pay in tax for an equivalent service.  This is equivalent to a higher tax.  This money being paid out for insurance goes to a middleman.  He makes money for stockholders but provides no added value to the customer.  The customer in this case is the medical patient.  In fact, insurance makes a hassle for a sick person.  If this money could be freed up, it could be used for all sorts of good things.

"My country is missing out on the cash flow and demand for services that they are unable to offer due to socialist medicine.  This demand would lead to higher capitalization and development if it were fulfilled within the country.  It would lead to jobs and a lower level of expense for the patient.  Your allegation that the private sector produces more inflated prices than a public sector strategy needs some citations.  Price discovery doesn't occur without competition."

That sounds great - no demand for services.  Wow! people don't get sick in Canada.

Not being sick leads to a lack of lower capitalization.  Cool!  You are not building hospitals with empty beds.  Canadians are smart.

I don't know abut the next sentence.  Sick people in the US certainly create jobs, but with our non regulated system, we sure don't have lower prices.  Citations, huh.  This is good enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_healthcare_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States

Price discovery doesn't occur without competition.  Well - In the US there really is little competition in prices.  It's not easy to shop around in the emergency room.

Ever think that maybe Canadians are actually moving South because of the weather?  Northern Minnesota ain't packed with people either.  Alaska is supposed to have some nice uncrowded places.




habanero

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #141 on: July 05, 2019, 05:44:27 AM »
Your allegation that the private sector produces more inflated prices than a public sector strategy needs some citations.  Price discovery doesn't occur without competition.

USA spends, as a proportion of GBP, roughly twice as much on healthcare as any European country and yet many people have no to minimal actual coverage. That's about all you need to know. If you return to planet earth, do some googling you will find a lot of sources for the insanely inflated cost of health care in the US. You seem to live under the assumption that it is an open and free market, which it isn't. If you have to go to the ER, you don't have time to shop around for prices or negotiate to take an obvious example. If I need to go to the ER I know that I would pay only some token sum for services rendered. Couple of years ago I broke my arm on a bike, went to the ER. Had a consultation, did x-ray, got the plaster cast on etc and when I left 3 hours later they asked me for the whopping sum of 75 dollars. Of course the true cost is much higher and taken over the health budget, but its not like you can shop around for the cheapest option when lying on the asphalt.

Health insurance gives adverse selection (unless, like in Switzerland, its required by law and noone can get turned away due to preexisting conditions or whatever). A nation has massively better negotiating position vs suppliers of medicine etc than an individual doctor or hospital has. And so on and so on.

Pretty much any advanced country in the world has choosen a model which is significantly different from the US. And there isn't even a debate on switching to a US-style system because the system is so openly flawed in so many ways.

FIREstache

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #142 on: July 05, 2019, 09:07:25 AM »
Sick people in the US certainly create jobs, but with our non regulated system, we sure don't have lower prices. 

Health care is highly regulated.  That overhead adds to the cost, though.

pecunia

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #143 on: July 05, 2019, 09:13:49 AM »
Sick people in the US certainly create jobs, but with our non regulated system, we sure don't have lower prices. 

Health care is highly regulated.  That overhead adds to the cost, though.

I suppose it does as it does in any industry.  Another question is what really makes US insurance so expensive?  Is the vast difference in price between the US and other countries due to regulation?  Regulations protect us from harmful drugs and ensure that medical people maintain standards.  Maybe, sometimes these things are good to pay for.  The self regulation thing often turns out to be a joke in many industries.

iris lily

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #144 on: July 05, 2019, 09:46:53 AM »
I can't see how healthcare is dragging Canada down unless you are a doctor and I suspect the Canadian government pays it's medical personnel pretty well.

Funny you should say that. Just yesterday I was thinking about pay for physicians in  Canada because one of those reality shows based in Canada featured a physician and his wife. They were in deep debt and denial of that.He said his income was somewhere around  $100,000 to 125,000 Canadian. That isn’t much and they were maintaining a big house and five kids on that. His wife had a “business”  but looked like a hobby to me The show is “‘Til Debt Do Us Part” available via Amazon Prime.

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If you are not paying for health insurance in the US, well you could be in a very bad way financially and ruin the rest of your life.  So, from a distance, the Canadian way seems more humane.

Our sainted former president, Barack Obama, created a piece of legislation that made health insurance affordable for everyone. This is what he said. He told us everybody could afford an ACA policy because subsidies.

HBFIRE

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #145 on: July 05, 2019, 09:50:09 AM »

I suppose it does as it does in any industry.  Another question is what really makes US insurance so expensive?  Is the vast difference in price between the US and other countries due to regulation? 

I read a good article on this, will try to dig it up.  Primarily egregious malpractice insurance (we are sue happy compared to other countries), our population is obese which drives up costs, and hospitals nickel and dime with highly inflated costs for basic items/services.   Socialized healthcare is a totally separate issue, first we need to solve the above.   If we don't solve the above, socialized health care will not fix our issues.

habanero

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #146 on: July 05, 2019, 10:22:49 AM »
Is the vast difference in price between the US and other countries due to regulation? 

An insurance-based market gives adverse selection. If you are you, healthy, have a safe job and male the probability of needing serious helathcare is very low and the rational choice is no have minimal coverage with a high deductible. A system of litigation adds to the overall cost and makes the health system overtreat and waste resources on covering their ass. The balance of power between buyers and sellers of medicine is reversed - in a single-payer system whoever is selling a drug is negotiating with one entity buying for an entire nation. The overall cost of drugs is much higher in the US than elsewhere. Everyone in the system tries to maximize their profits while in a single-payer you are more focused on keeping costs under control as there ain't anyone to pass the bill on to. On the flip side very cheap servieces probably lead to overconsumption - the threshold for seing a doctor is very low when the cost you see is about 20 bucks (which is the case in Norway - for under 18s the cost is exactly zero).

Health care is massively regulated everywhere.

As a fun fact Norway has a single-payer, goverment-funded system covering the entire body except for the mouth. The dental system is market-based.
Just look at who portests the strongest against a single-payer system and you pretty much have the answer

pecunia

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #147 on: July 05, 2019, 10:38:37 AM »
Is the vast difference in price between the US and other countries due to regulation? 

An insurance-based market gives adverse selection. If you are you, healthy, have a safe job and male the probability of needing serious helathcare is very low and the rational choice is no have minimal coverage with a high deductible. A system of litigation adds to the overall cost and makes the health system overtreat and waste resources on covering their ass. The balance of power between buyers and sellers of medicine is reversed - in a single-payer system whoever is selling a drug is negotiating with one entity buying for an entire nation. The overall cost of drugs is much higher in the US than elsewhere. Everyone in the system tries to maximize their profits while in a single-payer you are more focused on keeping costs under control as there ain't anyone to pass the bill on to. On the flip side very cheap servieces probably lead to overconsumption - the threshold for seing a doctor is very low when the cost you see is about 20 bucks (which is the case in Norway - for under 18s the cost is exactly zero).

Health care is massively regulated everywhere.

As a fun fact Norway has a single-payer, goverment-funded system covering the entire body except for the mouth. The dental system is market-based.
Just look at who portests the strongest against a single-payer system and you pretty much have the answer

Wow!  Uff Da!  Quite the answer!  " Everyone in the system tries to maximize their profits"  Nice way to categorize greed.

js82

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #148 on: July 05, 2019, 10:45:46 AM »
USA spends, as a proportion of GBP, roughly twice as much on healthcare as any European country and yet many people have no to minimal actual coverage. That's about all you need to know. If you return to planet earth, do some googling you will find a lot of sources for the insanely inflated cost of health care in the US. You seem to live under the assumption that it is an open and free market, which it isn't. If you have to go to the ER, you don't have time to shop around for prices or negotiate to take an obvious example.

This sums it up pretty well - classic free market mechanics don't apply to significant sections of the health care market, because of some combination of 1) Urgency (When I'm in the ambulance I'm not going to be shopping for the hospital with the lowest rates), 2) lack of competition(sometimes a drug may be on patent, and there may not be an equivalent alternative), and 3) (and this is really an extension of #1) it's not a discretionary purchase/value is distorted by the fact that it's your life - when it comes to potential life-and-death decisions, relying on free markets to price things doesn't work, because at some point the value of being alive and healthy trends toward infinity.

What we have in the USA for health care is pretty much what you'd expect from a country with our relative attitudes towards wealth/poverty: best-in-the-world healthcare if you're wealthy/have good insurance, but a system that's thoroughly mediocre(at best) for the average individual.

There's also the matter of perverse incentives in our corporate-tied insurance system - when employers select plans for their employees. they aren't selecting plans with the same critieria an individual would when shopping for themselves.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 10:47:34 AM by js82 »

FIREstache

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Re: My life in a Liberal hell hole.
« Reply #149 on: July 05, 2019, 10:50:36 AM »
and hospitals nickel and dime with highly inflated costs for basic items/services.

They charge for everything because of all the overhead, to compensate for the people that don't pay anything, and because they are underpaid by Medicare and Medicaid for services rendered.  Despite all that, many health care facilities have gone out of business and closed down or have at least had to cut some of the services they provide, causing people to travel further for their care.