My life in a Liberal hell hole.

[mm1970]

California is a socialist nightmare. Besides Apple, Google, HP, Tesla, Cisco, VMware, Airbnb, and Uber, and a bunch of other companies whose products you use monthly if not weekly, what else has come out of California? Nothing but high taxes and a nanny state mentality.

Avocados!!

Strawberries, broccoli

[mm1970]

  I do believe that California is actually the poverty leader when cost of living is factored in.  I wonder if Prop 13 will be revisited at some time. In our case we bought at just the right time, 1998. If we were younger now, just starting out, I don't know if we would stay in the state.  Don't know how my kids are going to buy a house at current values, but of course a correction may be  right around the corner.

I guess it depends.  I sort of hope not?  In any event, it seems like where I live, we still have enough "turnover" in home sales that resets the property taxes.  I don't have a feel for what % of homes get passed to the kids with the old tax basis though.

I was happy to see Prop ... 5?  Whatever it was in the recent election fail.  Unlimited transferring of your old tax basis, even to a more expensive home?  Um.  No.

[DreamFIRE]

I still find California over-populated and with a terrible housing shortage which has driven prices too the moon.  If income taxes could be further increased to drive more people to Iowa, reduce freeway congestion and lower home prices, I would not object.

So you would drive out the people paying high taxes and make room for more illegals.  That doesn't sound like a good idea.

[bacchi]

Don't feed the troll, folks.

[RetiredAt63]

, but gas is less costly, and no annual inspections or smog checks and associated costs.

To me these would be negatives - all contribute to poor air quality and increased carbon (CO, CO₂, particulate matter) in the air.

Have you ever been to Iowa?  I have, and I can assure you there is no problem with their air quality.  I also lived in CA for 19 years.  There is a notable difference. 

Perhaps it's because there are 5 times more residents per square mile in CA than in IA.  Maybe I'm in the minority, but I prefer a less intrusive government that doesn't put unnecessary, costly, regulations in place just for the sake of doing so.

CA has the strict air quality regulations that they do because they have poor air quality (a combo of geography, climate, and emissions). Iowa has none of those problems so follows federal standards and does no more. Neither state is wrong in the way they regulate most air pollutants. Now, we could talk about greenhouse gasses, but then the picture gets a lot more complicated (in both states)

We're not disagreeing.  I'm just pointing out that simply because Iowa doesn't need to impose the same air regs that CA does, that that isn't necessarily a negative.  RetiredAt63 seemed to be implying that simply because gas prices in IA were lower than prices in CA, and because IA doesn't need to have annual smog inspections, that that automatically meant air quality was worse in IA.

NO. I am implying that Iowa assumes it doesn't need them because it has good air quality (low population density and no temperature inversions help a lot). But air moves around.  That means the greenhouse gases move around, so it doesn't really matter who is doing the burning, ii all goes into our common atmosphere.

Once upon a time mid-west coal-fired electric plants caused major acid rain problems in the north-east  (I have no idea how much or little was from Iowa) - the air moved and took the acid rain components with it.  Atmosphere is global.  Canada got fallout from Chernobyl.

[Camarillo Brillo]

, but gas is less costly, and no annual inspections or smog checks and associated costs.

To me these would be negatives - all contribute to poor air quality and increased carbon (CO, CO₂, particulate matter) in the air.

Have you ever been to Iowa?  I have, and I can assure you there is no problem with their air quality.  I also lived in CA for 19 years.  There is a notable difference. 

Perhaps it's because there are 5 times more residents per square mile in CA than in IA.  Maybe I'm in the minority, but I prefer a less intrusive government that doesn't put unnecessary, costly, regulations in place just for the sake of doing so.

CA has the strict air quality regulations that they do because they have poor air quality (a combo of geography, climate, and emissions). Iowa has none of those problems so follows federal standards and does no more. Neither state is wrong in the way they regulate most air pollutants. Now, we could talk about greenhouse gasses, but then the picture gets a lot more complicated (in both states)

We're not disagreeing.  I'm just pointing out that simply because Iowa doesn't need to impose the same air regs that CA does, that that isn't necessarily a negative.  RetiredAt63 seemed to be implying that simply because gas prices in IA were lower than prices in CA, and because IA doesn't need to have annual smog inspections, that that automatically meant air quality was worse in IA.

NO. I am implying that Iowa assumes it doesn't need them because it has good air quality (low population density and no temperature inversions help a lot). But air moves around.  That means the greenhouse gases move around, so it doesn't really matter who is doing the burning, ii all goes into our common atmosphere.

Once upon a time mid-west coal-fired electric plants caused major acid rain problems in the north-east  (I have no idea how much or little was from Iowa) - the air moved and took the acid rain components with it.  Atmosphere is global.  Canada got fallout from Chernobyl.

ah, got it.  Thanks for explaining that.

[I'm a red panda]

California is a socialist nightmare. Besides Apple, Google, HP, Tesla, Cisco, VMware, Airbnb, and Uber, and a bunch of other companies whose products you use monthly if not weekly, what else has come out of California? Nothing but high taxes and a nanny state mentality.

Avocados!!

True. But besides that, and the companies above, and Intuit, Nvidia, Qualcomm (snap dragon), and Intel, what else has come out of California? Nothing.

Nothing except world-class skiing, climbing and mountaineering. And almonds! And movies, lots of movies. Other than that though, nothing.

Hehehe what else have the Romans Californians not done for you all?

Seriously? Does California even have aquaducts?


I really enjoy living in Iowa. But I live in a liberal bubble that doesn't smell like manure. There are political implications that are super stressful. But they are better than when I lived in Texas.
Iowa's air quality is great. And although our gas prices are low, the state invests in alternative energies- wind and solar are both very big here. (So is ethanol, which I'm not convinced is 'cleaner'. But it costs more to get gas without ethanol because the state subsidizes it.)

[ysette9]

California is a socialist nightmare. Besides Apple, Google, HP, Tesla, Cisco, VMware, Airbnb, and Uber, and a bunch of other companies whose products you use monthly if not weekly, what else has come out of California? Nothing but high taxes and a nanny state mentality.

Avocados!!

True. But besides that, and the companies above, and Intuit, Nvidia, Qualcomm (snap dragon), and Intel, what else has come out of California? Nothing.

Nothing except world-class skiing, climbing and mountaineering. And almonds! And movies, lots of movies. Other than that though, nothing.

Hehehe what else have the Romans Californians not done for you all?

Seriously? Does California even have aquaducts?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Aqueduct

California has one of the most sophisticated and comprehensive water management and distribution systems in the country. It has plenty of flaws, but we recognized long ago that water is a precious and limited resource and so a goes into managing it.

[I'm a red panda]

California is a socialist nightmare. Besides Apple, Google, HP, Tesla, Cisco, VMware, Airbnb, and Uber, and a bunch of other companies whose products you use monthly if not weekly, what else has come out of California? Nothing but high taxes and a nanny state mentality.

Avocados!!

True. But besides that, and the companies above, and Intuit, Nvidia, Qualcomm (snap dragon), and Intel, what else has come out of California? Nothing.

Nothing except world-class skiing, climbing and mountaineering. And almonds! And movies, lots of movies. Other than that though, nothing.

Hehehe what else have the Romans Californians not done for you all?

Seriously? Does California even have aquaducts?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Aqueduct

California has one of the most sophisticated and comprehensive water management and distribution systems in the country. It has plenty of flaws, but we recognized long ago that water is a precious and limited resource and so a goes into managing it.

Do men have the right to have babies in California?

[Fish Sweet]

Ha!  This topic really stands out to me because I also live in Southern California, and have friends living in other parts of the States commenting on how hard it must be to eke out a living there.  Well ...no, not really.  Frugality plays a part of it, sure, it's EASY as hell to blow tons of money living here, especially if you buy into ~trendy fads, fashions, and the myth of Hollywood glamour.  But if not, well, I live on far less than most of my friends in "cheaper" states, and could easily cut down costs further if I stopped commuting (insurance & gas take up a big chunk of my expenses.)

There are negatives, of course-- I'll most likely never buy or own property here, for example.
 But so far, the trade offs have been worth it.  Other people have covered a lot of the positives (for them) that living in CA grants them, and in my experience, a lot of them aren't even necessarily tangible or easily factored into a cost analysis.  Stuff like...

- Easy access to cheap and free entertainment year 'round-- open air concerts, farmer's markets, festivals in the park, etc.
- Being able to be open with my girlfriend without anyone batting an eye.  Sure, we get the odd homophobe here and there, but I know it would be a lot harder in many states.
- Living in a diverse area where I don't feel like the odd one out, being able to access commodities and communities that share my culture.  Being able to share and learn from other people who don't share my culture.
- Guaranteed paid sick days-- a blessing for a lot of my less well off friends who don't want to risk firing or infecting their coworkers by coming down with the flu.

Some of it is law or policy, some of it is cultural, a lot of it is dependent on where in CA you're located.  But being a bleeding heart liberal myself, it's all worked out pretty well. :)

[FIRE@50]

, but gas is less costly, and no annual inspections or smog checks and associated costs.

To me these would be negatives - all contribute to poor air quality and increased carbon (CO, CO₂, particulate matter) in the air.

Have you ever been to Iowa?  I have, and I can assure you there is no problem with their air quality.  I also lived in CA for 19 years.  There is a notable difference. 

Perhaps it's because there are 5 times more residents per square mile in CA than in IA.  Maybe I'm in the minority, but I prefer a less intrusive government that doesn't put unnecessary, costly, regulations in place just for the sake of doing so.

CA has the strict air quality regulations that they do because they have poor air quality (a combo of geography, climate, and emissions). Iowa has none of those problems so follows federal standards and does no more. Neither state is wrong in the way they regulate most air pollutants. Now, we could talk about greenhouse gasses, but then the picture gets a lot more complicated (in both states)

We're not disagreeing.  I'm just pointing out that simply because Iowa doesn't need to impose the same air regs that CA does, that that isn't necessarily a negative.  RetiredAt63 seemed to be implying that simply because gas prices in IA were lower than prices in CA, and because IA doesn't need to have annual smog inspections, that that automatically meant air quality was worse in IA.

NO. I am implying that Iowa assumes it doesn't need them because it has good air quality (low population density and no temperature inversions help a lot). But air moves around.  That means the greenhouse gases move around, so it doesn't really matter who is doing the burning, ii all goes into our common atmosphere.

Once upon a time mid-west coal-fired electric plants caused major acid rain problems in the north-east  (I have no idea how much or little was from Iowa) - the air moved and took the acid rain components with it.  Atmosphere is global.  Canada got fallout from Chernobyl.

Have you ever considered writing hip hop songs?

[dougules]

California is a socialist nightmare. Besides Apple, Google, HP, Tesla, Cisco, VMware, Airbnb, and Uber, and a bunch of other companies whose products you use monthly if not weekly, what else has come out of California? Nothing but high taxes and a nanny state mentality.

Avocados!!

True. But besides that, and the companies above, and Intuit, Nvidia, Qualcomm (snap dragon), and Intel, what else has come out of California? Nothing.

Nothing except world-class skiing, climbing and mountaineering. And almonds! And movies, lots of movies. Other than that though, nothing.

Hehehe what else have the Romans Californians not done for you all?

Seriously? Does California even have aquaducts?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Aqueduct

California has one of the most sophisticated and comprehensive water management and distribution systems in the country. It has plenty of flaws, but we recognized long ago that water is a precious and limited resource and so a goes into managing it.

Do men have the right to have babies in California?

As a matter of fact, they do. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_pregnancy

Although they probably can where you live, too. 

[I'm a red panda]

California is a socialist nightmare. Besides Apple, Google, HP, Tesla, Cisco, VMware, Airbnb, and Uber, and a bunch of other companies whose products you use monthly if not weekly, what else has come out of California? Nothing but high taxes and a nanny state mentality.

Avocados!!

True. But besides that, and the companies above, and Intuit, Nvidia, Qualcomm (snap dragon), and Intel, what else has come out of California? Nothing.

Nothing except world-class skiing, climbing and mountaineering. And almonds! And movies, lots of movies. Other than that though, nothing.

Hehehe what else have the Romans Californians not done for you all?

Seriously? Does California even have aquaducts?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Aqueduct

California has one of the most sophisticated and comprehensive water management and distribution systems in the country. It has plenty of flaws, but we recognized long ago that water is a precious and limited resource and so a goes into managing it.

Do men have the right to have babies in California?

As a matter of fact, they do. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_pregnancy

Although they probably can where you live, too.

I don't think the men in question were trans. They just wanted the right to have babies.

But the movie reference isn't fun anymore.

[HBFIRE]

I too live in Cali, 2 blocks off the beach, and yeah it basically tries to steal from you as much as possible.  The entire philosophy of the state government is how much $ it can suck out of people.  CA is like the hot airhead blonde every guy wants for appearances but has little else to offer and costs you tons of money.  I like how you call it the Republic of California.  Spot on.

All that said, great article here by gocurrycracker -- maybe it's not as expensive as thought for retirees:

https://www.gocurrycracker.com/going-back-to-cali/


Despite our shitty government, I still would rather live here than anywhere else.  Luckily OC is more conservative than much of the state.

[GuitarStv]

I too live in Cali, 2 blocks off the beach, and yeah it basically tries to rape you as much as possible.

I used to regularly use the term 'rape' in the same way that you do above here as a kind of joking offhand comment.  One friend of mine mentioned that a woman we were working with had recently been raped, and was upset by the usage.  It made me think about what I was actually saying . . . that something mildly annoying was equivalent to being violated in a horrible way.  And that I was making light of a pretty traumatic event.  I haven't used the term in a joking manner ever since.

[HBFIRE]

I used to regularly use the term 'rape' in the same way that you do above here as a kind of joking offhand comment.  One friend of mine mentioned that a woman we were working with had recently been raped, and was upset by the usage.  It made me think about what I was actually saying . . . that something mildly annoying was equivalent to being violated in a horrible way.  And that I was making light of a pretty traumatic event.  I haven't used the term in a joking manner ever since.

Point well taken, I've modified my post.

[OneStep]

Beautiful interaction GuitarStv and dustinst22. Something we need more in this world.

[BuildingFrugalHabits]

Despite our shitty government, I still would rather live here than anywhere else.  Luckily OC is more conservative than much of the state.

Just curious what benefits you perceive in living in a conservative part of a liberal state? 

[HBFIRE]

Just curious what benefits you perceive in living in a conservative part of a liberal state?

Oh, I don't want to turn this thread into politics.  I'm an independent, but lean more conservative.  I prefer living in areas that lean more conservative for many reasons, which can be tough to find in CA.  OC still has a liberal political majority, but there is a more even split.

[BuildingFrugalHabits]

Just curious what benefits you perceive in living in a conservative part of a liberal state?

Oh, I don't want to turn this thread into a politics.  I'm an independent, but lean more conservative.  I prefer living in areas that lean more conservative for many reasons, which can be tough to find in CA.  OC still has a liberal political majority, but there is a more even split.

Definitely not trying to argue politics (I'm also independent), more just interested in hearing the experiences of others.  The only reason I ask is because I feel like most areas I am drawn to tend to always be more liberal i.e. Boulder, CO (a liberal place in a centrist state).  They have good community resources like bike infrastructure and do a good job with open space preservation and management but the downside is always cost of housing.  Not sure how OC compares in terms of value vs. community resources (conservative place in a liberal state) since you still have high state taxes to deal with. 

[HBFIRE]

Definitely not trying to argue politics (I'm also independent), more just interested in hearing the experiences of others.  The only reason I ask is because I feel like most areas I am drawn to tend to always be more liberal i.e. Boulder, CO.  They have good community resources like bike infrastructure and do a good job with open space preservation and management but the downside is always cost of housing.  Not sure how OC compares in terms of value vs. community resources.

Definitely a good point regarding infrastructure.  Luckily all of the beach areas tend to have pretty good community resources.  Newport Beach, which is a heavily conservative OC city, probably has the best resources. In CA at least, the cities with the highest average income tend to have the best resources, regardless of political affiliation.
I'm going to be very careful here because I don't want to offend anyone.  From my experience, conservative areas tend to have stronger family communities.  I'm an atheist, but I appreciate what religious communities bring with regards to family values, etc.  Also, I like living in areas where I can discuss politics, economy, etc and relate more to others.  It wasn't until relatively recently this mattered to me (last ~ 10 years).  As liberals are moving more and more to the far left, which seems to be the recent trend, it's becoming more of an issue.  I still vote democrat sometimes when there is a good moderate candidate.  This is becoming more difficult to find.

[calimom]

Definitely not trying to argue politics (I'm also independent), more just interested in hearing the experiences of others.  The only reason I ask is because I feel like most areas I am drawn to tend to always be more liberal i.e. Boulder, CO.  They have good community resources like bike infrastructure and do a good job with open space preservation and management but the downside is always cost of housing.  Not sure how OC compares in terms of value vs. community resources.

Definitely a good point regarding infrastructure.  Luckily all of the beach areas tend to have pretty good community resources.  Newport Beach, which is a heavily conservative OC city, probably has the best resources. In CA at least, the cities with the highest average income tend to have the best resources, regardless of political affiliation.
I'm going to be very careful here because I don't want to offend anyone.  From my experience, conservative areas tend to have stronger family communities.  I'm an atheist, but I appreciate what religious communities bring with regards to family values, etc.  Also, I like living in areas where I can discuss politics, economy, etc and relate more to others.  It wasn't until relatively recently this mattered to me (last ~ 10 years).  As liberals are moving more and more to the far left, which seems to be the recent trend, it's becoming more of an issue.  I still vote democrat sometimes when there is a good moderate candidate.  This is becoming more difficult to find.

Not harshing your buzz, but just entertained by the notion that one can find all the benefits of a liberal leaning society - decent health care options, environmentalism, public facilities and then be against the forces that work to make those things happen.

Luckily things are changing in the OC:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/katie-porters-midterm-blue-wave-fades-in-orange-county

[kei te pai]

I enjoy reading the forum for insight into US culture, even though this is probably not a representative sample population. Down here in this little antipodean Liberal paradise, our right wing parties would probably be considered more left wing than your lefties!

[HBFIRE]

Luckily things are changing in the OC:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/katie-porters-midterm-blue-wave-fades-in-orange-county

Yeah saw that.  OC as a whole is still a higher than 50% liberal as I mentioned, but the nice thing the balance is closer to 50/50 compared to the rest of CA.  There are pockets that are more red than blue, like HB and Newp.

And don't get me started on our horrible state government, I don't want to go down that road on this thread.  It's insanely bad.

[Dicey]

California is terrible, just terr-i-ble. No one can FIRE on a reasonable salary; it's just impossible. Stay away! Move anywhere else but here. Puh-leeze. And Thank You!! (Just doing my part to reduce traffic in the Golden State.)

[Abe]

Have to echo Dicey - this state is such a dump, no reasonable person would move here ever, unless they could walk or bike here. It is impossible to drive a car more than 5 feet at any time. Also, the state took all my money and I live in a box now, which is good since I fit in with everyone else at the beach - I mean needle pit.

[dresden]

Just like anything else it all depends on facts and circumstances.

If you have high assets, low expense load and ability to control income you can benefit most from living in a liberal state where you might qualify for food subsidies even with several million in assets on top of medical and other subsidies.  Most conservative states have an asset test for food subsidies.    If you are working towards FIRE in your prime earning years you don't want to get transferred to a liberal state where you will be subsidizing millionaires with low expenses and the ability to control income - and in CA your living expenses might go up significantly.

The system isn't fair and never will be. That is why financial independence is good regardless of politics and the politics of where you live.

[partdopy]

People pay a premium to live in California because it's worth it.

Meh. I grew up in CA. It's only worth it if you make a ton of money or inherited a house or 100% of your family is there.

The main draw is the weather. Sure, that's a positive, but in Colorado (where I live now), I get just as much sunshine, much cleaner air, and far less traffic (we don't live in Denver), and our dream home was in reach as a first-house purchase.

I'll leave the traffic and smog in CA where it belongs. Most of my family has moved away from CA because you can get a better lifestyle (whatever that means) at a fraction of the cost.

I hear the surf is quite a bit better in California . . .

Perhaps, but the water is just as cold, so whats the point if you're not an expert surfer?

[GetItRight]

Compare apples to apples. An extra $20k/yr and arguably better quality of life elsewhere (depends on your interests I suppose). Or just a comparable income before FIRE elsewhere.

I travel for work and am in CA regularly, among other states. Coming from the cold northeast I don't mind a break from the frozen tundra in the winter but hate going in the summer. The rest of the southwest is far nicer IMO, and the southeast even nicer if you want warm or mild winters. I wouldnd only live in CA if the company paid me enough that I could be FI within say 5 years then move somewhere civilized. I could do a defined term, sort of like enlisting or even a prison sentence, as long as there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

As for traffic in CA... Yeah if you want to live anywhere nice but still have a high earning job you'll be driving 2-3 hours each way from the more civilized parts of the state to the densely populated hell holes where the jobs are. Traffic IMO is not anywhere near as bad in CA as the northeast. People in the northeast are far more selfish and dangerous drivers actively blocking people from getting out of their way or off the road, tailgating, and generally driving dangerously. I've found this dangerous and stressful behavior of other drivers is very minimal in CA and outside of the socialist northeast urban regions. I don't mind CA rush hour traffic and think it's silly how much the locals complain about it when they think it's the worst in the country... Yeah traffic sucks but it's not the worst by a long shot.

At the end of the day I value freedom highly, CA simply doesn't offer nearly the level of freedom as most other areas of the country do. It's not for me.

[ixtap]

Compare apples to apples. An extra $20k/yr and arguably better quality of life elsewhere (depends on your interests I suppose). Or just a comparable income before FIRE elsewhere.

I travel for work and am in CA regularly, among other states. Coming from the cold northeast I don't mind a break from the frozen tundra in the winter but hate going in the summer. The rest of the southwest is far nicer IMO, and the southeast even nicer if you want warm or mild winters. I wouldnd only live in CA if the company paid me enough that I could be FI within say 5 years then move somewhere civilized. I could do a defined term, sort of like enlisting or even a prison sentence, as long as there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

As for traffic in CA... Yeah if you want to live anywhere nice but still have a high earning job you'll be driving 2-3 hours each way from the more civilized parts of the state to the densely populated hell holes where the jobs are. Traffic IMO is not anywhere near as bad in CA as the northeast. People in the northeast are far more selfish and dangerous drivers actively blocking people from getting out of their way or off the road, tailgating, and generally driving dangerously. I've found this dangerous and stressful behavior of other drivers is very minimal in CA and outside of the socialist northeast urban regions. I don't mind CA rush hour traffic and think it's silly how much the locals complain about it when they think it's the worst in the country... Yeah traffic sucks but it's not the worst by a long shot.

At the end of the day I value freedom highly, CA simply doesn't offer nearly the level of freedom as most other areas of the country do. It's not for me.

In what way does CA impinge on your freedom?

[Abe]

I've only been here a year and a half, but here are the ways my freedoms have been impinged:

1. Required more than minimal effort to buy weapons (had to prove I knew how to operate a handgun, and also prove I knew that I should not to aim gun at face, even if I really really think the chamber is empty!)
2. Had to present proof of citizenship to get a driver's license (never had to do that before!)
3. Highest state income tax rate - rather give that money to a more efficient charity.
4. Have to make sure any additions to the house are structurally sound instead of what I looked up on Youtube. This takes a while, and I want my new bathroom now!!

Back in North Carolina, I could get a gun at Walmart, get a driver's license with a minimal understanding of traffic rules, and had an extra couple thousand from the lower taxes. #4 still was there, though. Don't tread on my blueprints!

In all seriousness, I'm interested in what the civilized and uncivilized portions of California are. Yeah, we have a lot of homeless people camping out on the beach, but for the most part they're pretty civilized. Those scooter-riding millennials, that's another story!

[Euphorbia]

A family of four would need to make $185k or more before they would pay more state tax in California vs. Virginia which has a top rate of 5.75%. People have a tendency to look at the top rate and do no further analysis.

[ixtap]

I've only been here a year and a half, but here are the ways my freedoms have been impinged:

1. Required more than minimal effort to buy weapons (had to prove I knew how to operate a handgun, and also prove I knew that I should not to aim gun at face, even if I really really think the chamber is empty!)
2. Had to present proof of citizenship to get a driver's license (never had to do that before!)
3. Highest state income tax rate - rather give that money to a more efficient charity.
4. Have to make sure any additions to the house are structurally sound instead of what I looked up on Youtube. This takes a while, and I want my new bathroom now!!

Back in North Carolina, I could get a gun at Walmart, get a driver's license with a minimal understanding of traffic rules, and had an extra couple thousand from the lower taxes. #4 still was there, though. Don't tread on my blueprints!

In all seriousness, I'm interested in what the civilized and uncivilized portions of California are. Yeah, we have a lot of homeless people camping out on the beach, but for the most part they're pretty civilized. Those scooter-riding millennials, that's another story!

You still got a gun, so you freedom was not impinged on.
You can get a drivers license in CA without proving you are a citizen, those are federal rules, but CA issues either a license that conforms, if you show proof of citizenship or legal residency or one that does not conform if you don't have such proof with you. Federal rules, not state.
NC does have free state parks somehow, that one I will give you.

[Abe]

Yeah, I was being sarcastic and appreciate those regulations' intent. I don't have a large herd of cows and such, so haven't had problems with government interference in my life.

Some of the state parks here are free. The rest have nominal fees. 

[TomTX]

Overall tax burden by state is easy to look up if you want to know what a "normal" person's taxes would be relative to other states. California comes in at #10 this year:

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/

I'm puzzled by the low "sales and excise tax" for Texas. 4.45% doesn't seem plausible. Most stuff is subject to sales tax (groceries being an exception - but "groceries" is fairly limited. Ready-to-eat stuff from the grocery store is typically taxed)

One mistake I saw in one of these comparisons elsewhere was basing the calculation on a 6.25% overall sales tax for Texas. That's just the State portion. There is also local sales tax of 2% for a total of 8.25%.

Sure, theoretically you can buy stuff in areas without local sales tax - but 99.9+% of the purchases are going to be in full 8.25% sales tax areas. I drive all over the state and I haven't made a purchase in an area without the full 8.25% tax in something like 20 years.

[pecunia]

I contracted in California many years ago for a year and a half.  It was an adventure.  My rent was expensive.  The traffic was intense.  I come from the sticks so it sometimes terrified me. 

I was surprised.  I lived in the Bay area.  The people were friendly.  This was a big city yet the people would talk to you.  I was exposed to many cultures.  It was great.  I could bicycle the entire year.  I never had to shovel snow.  I got paid more.  I hiked in the Redwoods.  I didn't have to drive as I took the BART.  I got to see the beautiful mountains and the seashore.  The Contra Costa library was great.  I saw great parks, Yosemite, Mt Lassen, Redwoods park.  I hiked through the city and crossed to Alcatraz.  The biking and hiking were basically free as was the library.  I bought computer stuff in Fremont.  I was exposed to foods of many cultures.  I got free entertainment seeing the tables set up at Berkeley on the weekends set up by people with different agendas.  I camped on a vacant stretch of land next to the ocean near Crescent City. 

It was the adventure of a lifetime.

I haven't lived in Iowa, but lived in Minnesota.  I can't see Iowa being as good, but I'm older now and things would no longer be the same.

Were things more expensive?  Yeh - so what.  I lived rather inexpensively and when I was done there I paid cash for a new Dodge Dakota that I used on my next job to explore the Pacific Northwest.  It ain't just about money.

[Cassie]

California is a beautiful state. We enjoy visiting. We live in Nevada and many people from California are moving here for financial reasons. Housing is cheaper and no state income tax. However, this is causing our home and rent prices to skyrocket and it’s making low income workers homeless.  As a state we are becoming more liberal which suits me.

[jpdx]

I live in the liberal hell hole to your North: Oregon.

WE PAY:
+We have a high income tax (but a modest property tax, and no sales tax).
+In the Portland metro area, we pay a 0.7-ish % payroll tax for transit.
+In the Portland/Multnomah area, businesses pay a license tax (it's more complicated than it aught to be) which works out to a couple hundred bucks a year for us.

WE RECEIVE:
+Free healthcare for our child. 100% free. No deductible, no co pays, and this includes dental and vision. (In Oregon the income level for CHIP is pretty high).
+Amazing parks and environment. Portland's parks are some of the best I have ever seen. The entire Oregon coast is public.
+A robust public transit system and good bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure (we sold one of our cars, saving lots of $).
+A great public library system, branches in every neighborhood, open 7-days a week.
+The state Energy Trust chips in for home upgrades like insulation and furnaces (saved us $1500).

We probably pay more in taxes than we would in Iowa, but I think we also receive more in services that contribute to a high quality of life.

[soccerluvof4]

I lived in California for about a year though in a different environment being in the military. What I got from it was its really a great place to visit but not a place I would choose to live. Also because of the size I don't think California can be looked at as one area. I really loved Northern Ca. and wasn't much of a fan of Southern Cal though San Diego you cant beat the weather but to damn expensive. But I can see why people enjoy different aspects of the state. Where I live the winters are long and frigid and its not cheap to live here in the Midwest where I live, So I guess my point is simply if you like it and can make it work $ then great. For me my first preference would be to move to NC. CA wouldn't make my list of top 25 so for those that want to scare us away! haha.. no need for me I'm not coming. But obviously a great portion of people love it and have figured out how to make it work.

[TheInsuranceMan]

My in-laws and a bunch of my wife's relatives live in NW IA. The whole area reeks of manure year round, poor water quality due to agricultural runoff, can't mow your lawn on a Sunday without religious extremists getting PO'd at you, huge amounts of corporate welfare, higher than average rates of health issues due to poor lifestyles. NW IA is its own special kind of hellhole.

Or, you just aren't used to it?  I live near that hell hole of NW IA, meaning North Central Iowa.  It smells a bit right now, as the hog barns are emptying their pits onto the fields, to be used as fertilizer for next years crop.  You know, to help grow crops for food, livestock feed, ethanol production, plus to make many clothing products.  Oh, and that manure you smell, yeah, that's called pork, beef, chicken, and turkey.  I certainly don't want to live without it.  In fact, we have a 2400 head hog confinement within a quarter mile of our farms home site, and I bet 90% of the year we smell nothing.  Maybe a bit when you drive by, but even with an east wind (which is prevalent when rain is coming, so the air is usually heavy), it still doesn't smell.

Poor water quality?  No.  There is so much regulation around nitrogen run off, manure leeching, etc.  In fact, there are quite a few studies that show the water coming out of tile lines, meaning the water draining through the soil, into the tile, and into a dredge ditch, has less N P and K than water out of most bottled water.  Turns out soil is a great filter.

Maybe you should get educated before you spew your assumptions.

[stoaX]

. Also because of the size I don't think California can be looked at as one area. .

Good insight...I agree!

[FINate]

I love California, born and raised here. There are at least 4 Californias: Southern, Central, Bay Area, Inland...maybe more. The variety is part of the charm with the highest and lowest points in the lower continental US just ~100 miles apart. The granite domes/slabs of the Sierras, along with sapphire blue skies, are stunning. We have the tallest, the largest, and the oldest non-clone trees in the world. I don't think most people realize how interesting the micro climates are: I see Oak/chaparral, pine, redwood/ferns, coastal bluffs, sandy beaches, and more all within the span of a single bike ride. And the weather can shift dramatically within just a few miles - this is part of the reason it's such a big wine producing region.

As much as we love it here, we're likely relocating in the near year or so. This is not something we take lightly and there are many complex reasons. To over simplify a bit, the extreme cost of living is a big factor. Cost of housing for sure, but this also has a ripple effect on cost of food and services, making pretty much everything else more expensive. The urban areas have mostly failed to plan for growth, opting instead for a no-growth philosophy over the last 3-4 decades. The idea was to preserve our way of life, our little piece of paradise, and we assumed "if you don't build it, they won't come." Well, it didn't work and we ended up with a lot of urban sprawl, insane prices for mediocre housing, and a hollowing out of the middle class as houses are purchased by wealthy tech employees and service workers cram into garages and out buildings.

Those big companies listed up-thread: Has no one else notice that these are *all* tech? About half of the state's income tax revenue comes from the top 1% of earners, which is now very tech heavy. I've lived here over 40 years now, and during that time the state has oscillated between feast and famine, which has gotten worse as we increasingly rely on taxing the rich. In other words, the tax burden is not spread widly enough. There are major unfunded liabilities w.r.t. pension obligations that are starting to come due. My city of 65k people, within commute distance of SV, is running a deficit of $5M in an economy that is absolutely booming. Every place is going to have some mix of these types of problems, but it's particularly bad in CA. Faced with the prospect of cutting pensions or raising taxes, I expect Prop 13 will be gutted - which is probably the right thing to do. The state is very dependent on tech at this point, but tech is extremely mobile, especially software development which can be done almost anywhere. I don't think SV is going to go bust overnight or anytime soon, but tech companies are already shifting hiring outside of the area because they are having difficulty recruiting and retaining people in the Bay Area due to the extreme cost of living. It will be a long slow drain, which may already be happening to a degree, and no one will notice until it's a problem.

Many urban areas in CA have major issues with crime and sanitation. I go for walks with my kids and we play spot the drug needles (I want them to know what to watch out for) and dodge the human poop on the sidewalks. I'm not a super fussy or clean person, but even I find it pretty gross.

So we love it here, but there are limits. At some point the sunshine tax is too high. The places we're looking would save us 500k-700k on housing, plus lower overall costs in general. With that difference invested we could afford to visit CA when we felt like taking in what it has to offer, while at the same time enjoying clean parks and maintained infrastructure in a different state.

[CSuzette]

Used to live in Seattle area and never cared for Portland. And now Antifa has taken over your downtown. I saw that they just attacked a conservative journalist and put him in the hospital. No thank you!

[EngagedToFIRE]

I love California, born and raised here. There are at least 4 Californias: Southern, Central, Bay Area, Inland...maybe more. The variety is part of the charm with the highest and lowest points in the lower continental US just ~100 miles apart. The granite domes/slabs of the Sierras, along with sapphire blue skies, are stunning. We have the tallest, the largest, and the oldest non-clone trees in the world. I don't think most people realize how interesting the micro climates are: I see Oak/chaparral, pine, redwood/ferns, coastal bluffs, sandy beaches, and more all within the span of a single bike ride. And the weather can shift dramatically within just a few miles - this is part of the reason it's such a big wine producing region.

As much as we love it here, we're likely relocating in the near year or so. This is not something we take lightly and there are many complex reasons. To over simplify a bit, the extreme cost of living is a big factor. Cost of housing for sure, but this also has a ripple effect on cost of food and services, making pretty much everything else more expensive. The urban areas have mostly failed to plan for growth, opting instead for a no-growth philosophy over the last 3-4 decades. The idea was to preserve our way of life, our little piece of paradise, and we assumed "if you don't build it, they won't come." Well, it didn't work and we ended up with a lot of urban sprawl, insane prices for mediocre housing, and a hollowing out of the middle class as houses are purchased by wealthy tech employees and service workers cram into garages and out buildings.

Those big companies listed up-thread: Has no one else notice that these are *all* tech? About half of the state's income tax revenue comes from the top 1% of earners, which is now very tech heavy. I've lived here over 40 years now, and during that time the state has oscillated between feast and famine, which has gotten worse as we increasingly rely on taxing the rich. In other words, the tax burden is not spread widly enough. There are major unfunded liabilities w.r.t. pension obligations that are starting to come due. My city of 65k people, within commute distance of SV, is running a deficit of $5M in an economy that is absolutely booming. Every place is going to have some mix of these types of problems, but it's particularly bad in CA. Faced with the prospect of cutting pensions or raising taxes, I expect Prop 13 will be gutted - which is probably the right thing to do. The state is very dependent on tech at this point, but tech is extremely mobile, especially software development which can be done almost anywhere. I don't think SV is going to go bust overnight or anytime soon, but tech companies are already shifting hiring outside of the area because they are having difficulty recruiting and retaining people in the Bay Area due to the extreme cost of living. It will be a long slow drain, which may already be happening to a degree, and no one will notice until it's a problem.

Many urban areas in CA have major issues with crime and sanitation. I go for walks with my kids and we play spot the drug needles (I want them to know what to watch out for) and dodge the human poop on the sidewalks. I'm not a super fussy or clean person, but even I find it pretty gross.

So we love it here, but there are limits. At some point the sunshine tax is too high. The places we're looking would save us 500k-700k on housing, plus lower overall costs in general. With that difference invested we could afford to visit CA when we felt like taking in what it has to offer, while at the same time enjoying clean parks and maintained infrastructure in a different state.

Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

[FINate]

Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

I would seriously consider Florida if the ocean was high on my list of priorities. However, and maybe this is because I grew up on the coast, I find it...meh...not that interesting. We live about 2 miles from the beach but almost never go: the water is cold, it's often overcast (the marine layer), and it's crowded and loud. I surfed a bit in college though never really took to it. The ocean is pretty, but I prefer mountains. A quiet lake or stream with a gravel or sand beach in the mountains and I'm happy. Fortunately, there a tons of places in the West with mountains, lakes and streams and plenty of sunshine to choose from :) For the 2-3 times/year we want to go to the ocean we can visit CA, HI, or Cabo.

[bacchi]

Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

When a crazy story shows up on the news, where is it from? Florida.


Man tries to eat face off of another man? Florida.
Man shoots car and kills someone because the hip-hop was too loud? Florida.
Landing airplane attacked by alligator? Florida.


(It's actually a great state, with nice beaches, but way too hot.)

[mm1970]

I love California, born and raised here. There are at least 4 Californias: Southern, Central, Bay Area, Inland...maybe more. The variety is part of the charm with the highest and lowest points in the lower continental US just ~100 miles apart. The granite domes/slabs of the Sierras, along with sapphire blue skies, are stunning. We have the tallest, the largest, and the oldest non-clone trees in the world. I don't think most people realize how interesting the micro climates are: I see Oak/chaparral, pine, redwood/ferns, coastal bluffs, sandy beaches, and more all within the span of a single bike ride. And the weather can shift dramatically within just a few miles - this is part of the reason it's such a big wine producing region.

As much as we love it here, we're likely relocating in the near year or so. This is not something we take lightly and there are many complex reasons. To over simplify a bit, the extreme cost of living is a big factor. Cost of housing for sure, but this also has a ripple effect on cost of food and services, making pretty much everything else more expensive. The urban areas have mostly failed to plan for growth, opting instead for a no-growth philosophy over the last 3-4 decades. The idea was to preserve our way of life, our little piece of paradise, and we assumed "if you don't build it, they won't come." Well, it didn't work and we ended up with a lot of urban sprawl, insane prices for mediocre housing, and a hollowing out of the middle class as houses are purchased by wealthy tech employees and service workers cram into garages and out buildings.

Those big companies listed up-thread: Has no one else notice that these are *all* tech? About half of the state's income tax revenue comes from the top 1% of earners, which is now very tech heavy. I've lived here over 40 years now, and during that time the state has oscillated between feast and famine, which has gotten worse as we increasingly rely on taxing the rich. In other words, the tax burden is not spread widly enough. There are major unfunded liabilities w.r.t. pension obligations that are starting to come due. My city of 65k people, within commute distance of SV, is running a deficit of $5M in an economy that is absolutely booming. Every place is going to have some mix of these types of problems, but it's particularly bad in CA. Faced with the prospect of cutting pensions or raising taxes, I expect Prop 13 will be gutted - which is probably the right thing to do. The state is very dependent on tech at this point, but tech is extremely mobile, especially software development which can be done almost anywhere. I don't think SV is going to go bust overnight or anytime soon, but tech companies are already shifting hiring outside of the area because they are having difficulty recruiting and retaining people in the Bay Area due to the extreme cost of living. It will be a long slow drain, which may already be happening to a degree, and no one will notice until it's a problem.

Many urban areas in CA have major issues with crime and sanitation. I go for walks with my kids and we play spot the drug needles (I want them to know what to watch out for) and dodge the human poop on the sidewalks. I'm not a super fussy or clean person, but even I find it pretty gross.

So we love it here, but there are limits. At some point the sunshine tax is too high. The places we're looking would save us 500k-700k on housing, plus lower overall costs in general. With that difference invested we could afford to visit CA when we felt like taking in what it has to offer, while at the same time enjoying clean parks and maintained infrastructure in a different state.

Florida.  Lots of LCOL areas, no sunshine tax, and it's the sunshine State.

And flesh eating bacteria, yikes!

[js82]

This is one of those threads where each side is going to be able to "prove" whatever it wants to.

Right. My point is not to argue whether one state is more or less expensive. My point was merely that paying more can get you more, and sometimes those ways are more subtle.

This sums it up well(or part of it).  Cost of living varies by vacation.  What you get in terms of services for your taxes also varies by location.  As do local wages.  As does the local culture.  As do other things, such as geography, and proximity to other things that you enjoy.

I'm not going to knock someone for choosing to live in a locale that's a good fit for the things that they put a high value on.  Certain areas of the country would be absolutely terrible fits *for me* and I'd likely be terribly unhappy there, but that in and of itself does not make them "hellholes".  For someone else, my "hellhole" might be their dream locale and vice versa.

Not going to bite on the political side of this thread - it really serves no purpose other than being a stereotypical pointless internet argument.

[FIREstache]

I don't live in California, but I live in a democrat controlled blue state which the democrats keep jacking up taxes and fees.  If it wasn't for most of my family and friends being in the area, I would move when I FIRE.

[HBFIRE]

Seattle and Portland are quickly following suit, have you visited either lately?  Totally falling apart and are becoming dumps.  Sad stuff, both of these used to be awesome cities.