My elderly mother was scammed; request for advice

[InquisitiveMind]

Our family learned two days ago that my mother, who is in her early 70s, was scammed: she is in the habit of opening email attachments, despite our warnings that she shouldn't, and her computer acquired a virus that subsequently displayed a phone number for her to call. The scammers posed as "computer support" professionals who were going to help her install Windows updates to get her computer running properly. Being naive and not particularly thoughtful, she promptly paid them $375 (not sure whether via credit card or whether something more pernicious like bank wire). They subsequently informed her that their method of payment had changed "for her safety", and that they would refund her that payment via a mailed check, but that she needed to instead send them iTunes gift cards. She did so (for which she paid cash), doubling her loss. Needless to say, no refund check has shown up (and if it did, I'm sure that it would be another component of the scam).

Once we alerted her that she has been scammed, she took action to contact her bank, who requested that she report this to the police, as well. She is currently visiting her bank and the police to get things sorted out. She is not sharing many details with us because she is defensive, but has mentioned that her interactions with the scammers have 'gotten really weird' in the last day. I cautioned her to cut off all contact with them and suggested that her computer is now infected beyond repair, and should be discarded.

I'm posting here partially to vent, and partially to ask for advice. I can't see how she will be able to continue using her computer after this incident, as it certainly contains who knows what forms of malware that likely won't all be removed even with careful sanitization. Is there a consensus that we should just chuck the computer? It was not expensive and could be replaced for a few hundred dollars at most; she only uses it for activities like email and Facebook.

I'm also curious about how others on this forum deal with elderly and increasingly mentally incompetent parents/relatives. My mother still has full control over her money. [My parents have a joint account, and she also has a separate account; fortunately, if she is being truthful, this scam has only affected her own account(s).] My father, to whom she is still married (but who is now threatening divorce), is extremely upset about this incident, and wants to have her 'declared mentally incompetent', which I don't think is really a 'thing'...

Thanks in advance for your input on this situation... It is fairly depressing, and any suggestions for how to deal with it are much appreciated.

[ketchup]

Definitely nuke the computer.  You don't have to trash it, but definitely wipe it and start over.  Maybe if she really does only use it for email and Facebook you could get her something like a Chromebook that would be more (for lack of a better term) idiot-proof.

Also, I don't think a loss of $375 (even doubled) is grounds for divorce in any sane person's mind... That's a different problem entirely.

[EricEng]

Reformat all hard drives and reinstall Windows will clean it up 99.9% of the time without need to chuck hardware.  More importantly, she MUST change passwords on all email and financial accounts via a different pc asap.

I remotely manage and support my elderly (70s) parent's computer usage through Teamviewer.
https://www.teamviewer.com/en/latest-version/

It is very easy to setup (managed to walk parents through it on the phone).  Once it is setup, I can access the pc like I am sitting in front of it. 

[InquisitiveMind]

Thanks for your replies, ketchup and Eric. I'll keep your advice in mind when deciding how to handle the infected computer. As I'm not available to make modifications myself, and other family members are not sufficiently computer-savvy to do this, I suppose that the best strategy is to call e.g. the Geek Squad...

I'm familiar with TeamViewer; thanks for the suggestion.

Also, I don't think a loss of $375 (even doubled) is grounds for divorce in any sane person's mind... That's a different problem entirely.

You are correct; this is simply the latest in a long string of incidents where she acts secretively and without her husband's consent. In the past, she has snuck around and purchased two cars, a refrigerator, an expensive recliner, chandeliers, costly services for their home, etc. without my father's knowledege or approval, due to their differences of opinion about how their money should be spent...

[Slee_stack]

Thanks for your replies, ketchup and Eric. I'll keep your advice in mind when deciding how to handle the infected computer. As I'm not available to make modifications myself, and other family members are not sufficiently computer-savvy to do this, is the best strategy to call e.g. the Geek Squad?

I'm familiar with TeamViewer; thanks for the suggestion.

Also, I don't think a loss of $375 (even doubled) is grounds for divorce in any sane person's mind... That's a different problem entirely.

You are correct; this is simply the latest in a long string of incidents where she acts secretively and without my father's consent. In the past, she has snuck around and purchased two cars, a refrigerator, an expensive recliner, chandeliers, expensive services for their home, etc. without my father's knowledege or approval, due to their differences of opinion about how their money should be spent...

Ugh, I feel bad for your Mom. Sorry to hear that.  Those preying on the elderly are among the lowest forms..

Your Mom's multiple financial 'infidelities' are another issue.  Your father may have a point if he has been continually disrespected over the years.

[InquisitiveMind]

Ugh, I feel bad for your Mom. Sorry to hear that.  Those preying on the elderly are among the lowest forms..

Thanks, Slee_stack. She is on that border where she doesn't consider herself to be 'elderly', yet she is starting to act like she is...

Your Mom's multiple financial 'infidelities' are another issue.  Your father may have a point if he has been continually disrespected over the years.

Yes, it is a perpetual battle between them... sigh...

[GuitarStv]

How is your mom's mental state?  The paying a scammer on the computer is a mistake that can be made by someone who doesn't know their way around a computer . . . but people start doing weird things as dementia creeps in, and it's important to keep a close eye on elderly loved ones to try and get them help as soon as possible when necessary.

Note - It's also common for people to hide it when they start losing their minds.  That was the scenario that we experienced with my grandmother.

[InquisitiveMind]

How is your mom's mental state?

It's a good question, and one that concerns us. In general, she exhibits poor judgment, e.g. agreeing to donate to cold-calling solicitors on the phone, getting involved in MLM schemes, and being a member of a religious cult, but she has always been like that... We are indeed keeping a close eye on these kinds of behaviors... The tough part is how to intervene if *we* decide that her behavior is problematic, but *she* doesn't see a problem with it...

[LifeHappens]

No advice, just lots of sympathy. I fear a scenario like this with my parents :(

[InquisitiveMind]

No advice, just lots of sympathy. I fear a scenario like this with my parents :(

Thank you. I am not one to share my problems, but it feels good to be able to discuss this...

[MilesTeg]

If you have the knowledge, you can just reformat (all drives!) and reinstall. It's unlikely there is a hardware/firmware level compromise. Sounds like either the "Windows Tech Support" scam or a derivative. If you don't know how to do that, it's cheaper to donate/recycle (being up front that it's full of malware!) the machine and replace.

However, if she only uses email and facebook, see if she would be ok with just a tablet and/or a Mac/iOS machine and treat it as a throw away device to avoid similar issues in the future. Mac/iOS are not a magic bullet solutions, but are not the soft target/low hanging fruit of Windows that these scams generally focus on.

With whatever device you use, make her use a very locked down account.

I don't have any knowledge about how to go about handling the larger problem; a family lawyer would be the place I would start.

[InquisitiveMind]

Thanks for all of your advice, MilesTeg.

I don't have any knowledge about how to go about handling the larger problem; a family lawyer would be the place I would start.

Thanks; that has already been addressed...

[ixtap]

Have you contacted the credit card companies? They may be able to help.

Also, it seems to me that anyone who falls for an iTunes card for payment scam should be a candidate to have a guardian for their finances.

[TrMama]

We've dealt with a very similar issue with my MIL. She's fallen prey to these scams a couple times now. In addition to wiping the computer, we also have her report her cc# as being stolen. This prevents the scammers from charging the card again.

As for the larger problem, my MIL has been widowed for many years, but even when FIL was alive she had spending patterns similar to your mom. FIL kept a secret account and restricted MILs access to money. When my DH was finally able to gain control over her accounts last year he employed the same tactic. Her cc balance was paid off, and the limit was reduced drastically. She gets a reasonable monthly allowance from her own invested assets (which DH also manages) and when it's gone, it's gone.

When we discuss it with her it's always in the vein of, "Let us take care of these boring financial matters for you so you can have more time to relax." Helps take the sting out of, "You're too incompetent to manage this basic task." Your dad's response to her overspending (while understandable) is pretty much guaranteed to make her defensive and secretive. A little empathy towards your mom would go a long way here.

You could also lock her credit to prevent her from acquiring new debts. I'd frame it as, "There was a big security breach recently and it's good to do this lock so people don't steal you identity. I've done it myself."

MIL lives in our basement suite. When the amount of mail (and requests for donations from a million and one charities) started to get out of control, I added our address and all phone numbers to the national Do Not Call/Do Not Send Junk Mail registries. It helped enormously. Her name is apparently on every single mailing list that targets suckers and the less she hears from them the better.

[Sibley]

A Chromebook might be an option, those don't retain anything as I understand it.

Re the rest of it - a discussion with the doctor may be in order to determine if her mental state has deteriorated and if so what steps should be taken. There is indeed a process to declare a person legally incompetent by the courts, but isn't done lightly or easily. You'd probably have to have a diagnosis along with medical assessment that she's no longer competent.

Maybe she should have an entirely separate (not linked) account with whatever "allowance" deposited into it regularly, and that's all the money she has access to without talking to her husband. That way if she gets scammed again, the damage is limited.

At the very least, notify the bank, etc that she is a risk for being taken advantage of. They should monitor for unusual withdrawals/purchases, etc.

[rementis]

Instead of windows install a very easy to use linux like Mint or Ubuntu Mate.

At least then you'll have less attack vectors.

[Metta]

I have dealt with similar problems with my mother (who is 80). My solution was to get her a Mac with Apple Support so that she always has someone to talk to when she is confused. And to win her agreement to allow me to be her computer expert that she can call anytime (day or night) with questions. I have drilled into her that she doesn't download anything or give anyone money or information without first calling me to check on whether this is a scam. This has worked fairly well, especially the AppleCare. I've been very impressed that AppleCare agents will stay on the phone with her for hours helping her with problems. 

[rosarugosa]

TrMama: Please tell me more about the junk mail registry.  My Mom makes small donations to many charities and her junk mail keeps increasing exponentially.  The mail thing has become a burden to her and I can't get her to fully appreciate that the problem is somewhat self-inflicted. 

[Letj]

How is your mom's mental state?

It's a good question, and one that concerns us. In general, she exhibits poor judgment, e.g. agreeing to donate to cold-calling solicitors on the phone, getting involved in MLM schemes, and being a member of a religious cult, but she has always been like that... We are indeed keeping a close eye on these kinds of behaviors... The tough part is how to intervene if *we* decide that her behavior is problematic, but *she* doesn't see a problem with it...

Do you think you mom could have Aspergers? Behavior like this may not be only a reflection of dementia especially if she has a history of such behavior.

[Syonyk]

No advice, just lots of sympathy. I fear a scenario like this with my parents :(

My dad's fallen for "Bob from Microsoft, you have a Virus on your Windows," as has my wife's grandmother.

My standing policy now is that if someone falls for this, I buy them a Chromebook.  It's cheaper than my time and sanity to try to fix their Windows box.   I've handed out several Chromebooks so far, and it has done a wonderful job of keeping my tech support burden low...

[jpdx]

Same thing happened to my family. I just want to add, it is possible the bad guys have gained access to the computer through a remote desktop application. This is a common tactic. Meaning they could have snooped around the computer for sensitive information, or installed keystroke capturing software to grab passwords, so be careful. Wipe that drive, and also have you mom change her passwords and keep an eye for signs of identity theft.

[InquisitiveMind]

Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses; they're very helpful.

Have you contacted the credit card companies? They may be able to help.

One problem is that she is very secretive about her finances, to the point that she won't even tell us how she originally paid these scammers. However, she claims that she did report it to her bank, and as mentioned above, they required her to file a police report, so I'm hoping that even if she doesn't share with *us* which account(s) were affected, her financial institution and other formal mechanisms will help her get it sorted out.

In addition to wiping the computer, we also have her report her cc# as being stolen. This prevents the scammers from charging the card again.

She is refusing to do this, because she says that it will prevent her from being able to use the card... :(

Thanks for the suggestions provided about how to manage her finances; the tricky thing is that she wants her independence and doesn't buy the 'let us take care of this for you' strategy, so any solution that is going to be implemented is going to have to happen with her consent and active participation...

When the amount of mail (and requests for donations from a million and one charities) started to get out of control, I added our address and all phone numbers to the national Do Not Call/Do Not Send Junk Mail registries. It helped enormously. Her name is apparently on every single mailing list that targets suckers and the less she hears from them the better.

Thanks for the reminder. I checked, and her phone number has been on the Do Not Call registry since 2003, yet they still receive an average of ~10 solicitation calls per day...

Those mailed donation solicitations are also an issue; my father tosses at least 5-10 of those that are sent to her each day...

Does anyone know if this is legit for the junk mail registry, or if this is shady? http://www.directmail.com/mail_preference/ I am not finding an official-looking site for requesting the stoppage of junk postal mail...

Maybe she should have an entirely separate (not linked) account with whatever "allowance" deposited into it regularly, and that's all the money she has access to without talking to her husband. That way if she gets scammed again, the damage is limited.

Yes, this is basically her current setup. She does have access to their joint account and pays their bills using it, but is sufficiently wise to restrict her crazy-type expenditures to her own account.

At the very least, notify the bank, etc that she is a risk for being taken advantage of. They should monitor for unusual withdrawals/purchases, etc.

I don't know that this is something I can do on her behalf, but I have definitely advised her to alert all financial institutions that were affected in this scam. If I can learn where she purchased those iTunes gift cards, I am tempted to call that store's management to ask whether their clerks might be alerted to elderly customers purchasing hundreds of dollars of iTunes gift cards for cash, to inquire why, although this would probably be considered an invasion of privacy. Western Union paid $586 million in a lawsuit for not intervening in wire fraud scams (https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/refunds/western-union-settlement-faqs).

Do you think you mom could have Aspergers? Behavior like this may not be only a reflection of dementia especially if she has a history of such behavior.

It's possible, although she is a very social and well-liked person, so I wouldn't think that she is anywhere on the autism scale. Actually, now that you mention it, my father regularly accuses her of having Williams Syndrome (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126224885), in which a person's ability to distrust is impaired, and they believe that everyone is their best friend. However, she doesn't have any of the physiological characteristics of WS, so that is not specifically her problem...

I appreciate the suggestions to purchase a Chromebook or a Mac; I will investigate those options.

Same thing happened to my family. I just want to add, it is possible the bad guys have gained access to the computer through a remote desktop application. This is a common tactic. Meaning they could have snooped around the computer for sensitive information, or installed keystroke capturing software to grab passwords, so be careful. Wipe that drive, and also have you mom change her passwords and keep an eye for signs of identity theft.

Thanks, jpdx; we're planning to do everything you suggested.

Question: I know that she has various documents (mostly MS Word and Excel format, as well as photos and home videos) saved on her computer that she isn't going to want to lose. Will it be safe to save these on an external drive before we wipe the computer, or might some of those documents also be infected?

[InquisitiveMind]

A few updates, in case anyone is interested:

Now that the situation has calmed down, my mother is more willing to talk about the status, and she provided the following updates:

~ She had actually started interacting with the scammers back in October, so this has been an ongoing situation, which is worrisome...

~ As of yesterday, her bank account for which they had had the routing info etc. has now been closed, and a new account opened.

~ Her visit to the police station yielded a set of info for her to contact Equifax and the other credit bureaus to place a freeze on her credit, which she plans to do.

~ A cop showed up at her house today with updates; revealing nothing we didn't already know, he confirmed that his efforts to determine the legitimacy of this outfit showed it to be a scam. During this discussion, my mom confessed that the cost of the iTunes gift cards had actually been $900, so that money is gone, on top of the $375 she had paid them via check... to fix her $200 computer...

~ She has agreed not to use her infected computer until it has been sanitized or replaced, although she insists that she wants to save important files before it is wiped. I still need to determine whether this will be feasible without risking problems, and any input is appreciated on whether MS Word and Excel documents, and photos & videos, would be safe to save on an external drive before we wipe or get rid of her PC.

[GuitarStv]

A few updates, in case anyone is interested:

Now that the situation has calmed down, my mother is more willing to talk about the status, and she provided the following updates:

~ She had actually started interacting with the scammers back in October, so this has been an ongoing situation, which is worrisome...

~ As of yesterday, her bank account for which they had had the routing info etc. has now been closed, and a new account opened.

~ Her visit to the police station yielded a set of info for her to contact Equifax and the other credit bureaus to place a freeze on her credit, which she plans to do.

~ A cop showed up at her house today with updates; revealing nothing we didn't already know, he confirmed that his efforts to determine the legitimacy of this outfit showed it to be a scam. During this discussion, my mom confessed that the cost of the iTunes gift cards had actually been $900, so that money is gone, on top of the $375 she had paid them via check... to fix her $200 computer...

~ She has agreed not to use her infected computer until it has been sanitized or replaced, although she insists that she wants to save important files before it is wiped. I still need to determine whether this will be feasible without risking problems, and any input is appreciated on whether MS Word and Excel documents, and photos & videos, would be safe to save on an external drive before we wipe or get rid of her PC.

Scan them with some free virus/adware programs and then save them to a thumbdrive.

[InquisitiveMind]

Thanks for the advice, Stv; that will be great if she can retain her files.

[Cali Nonya]

PTF

[TrMama]

TrMama: Please tell me more about the junk mail registry.  My Mom makes small donations to many charities and her junk mail keeps increasing exponentially.  The mail thing has become a burden to her and I can't get her to fully appreciate that the problem is somewhat self-inflicted.

Well we're Canadian, so I registered our address and all phone numbers here, https://www.the-cma.org/consumers/do-not-mail. MIL lives in our basement suite so we share the same address. However, I know I got the idea from here when someone was talking about doing the same thing with the US equivalent. Maybe a US person here can chime in, or you could try starting a new thread.

I also taped a note to the inside of our mailbox that reads, "No community mail, please." This stops the postman from putting all the unadressed flyers in our box. It cut down on the amount of recycling quite a bit and also removes MILs exposure to the fancy shoe store flyers that seem to trigger more shoe shopping.

InquisitiveMind - You have my sympathies. I totally understand why your mom is being secretive and defensive about this, especially since it sounds like your dad has said some pretty cruel things to her about it. If it's any consolation, it took DH years and years of asking, cajoling and arguing with his mom before she allowed him to manage her finances. In fact, things came to a head around this time last year after she'd gotten herself into a huge mess. Took DH a solid 6 months to sort it out and in the end she only conceded because we threatened to kick her out of the house and cut her off. When FIL was alive, he was never able to control her spending, which is how he ended up with a secret bank account.

I often wonder if MIL has fetal alcohol syndrome, or some other diagnosable issue. However, since there's little chance any kind of treatment would work at this stage (even if she were to consent) I just write her behaviour off as "quirky".

[Miss Piggy]

There are just so many red flags with her decision making...and the fact that this took place over the course of 2-3 months is indeed worrisome.

Could you look for a "how to avoid scams targeted at older people" class locally? I see classes like that in my area, such as through the community college adult education catalog, AAA, maybe AARP, etc. I suspect Mom might benefit from hearing this stuff from someone knowledgeable and experienced who isn't her (and I say this with all due respect) annoying, nagging, nosey, MYOB son/daughter/husband. Maybe you and Mom attend the class together, so there's no denying what each of you heard later on.

Tough lesson for her, but at least it wasn't a forever-life-changing amount of money.

[Miss Piggy]

I don't know that this is something I can do on her behalf, but I have definitely advised her to alert all financial institutions that were affected in this scam. If I can learn where she purchased those iTunes gift cards, I am tempted to call that store's management to ask whether their clerks might be alerted to elderly customers purchasing hundreds of dollars of iTunes gift cards for cash, to inquire why, although this would probably be considered an invasion of privacy.

Bankers, financial advisers, and other legit financial professionals are trained (and sometimes required) to ask these types of questions, depending on the amount & circumstances. I'd be surprised if you were able to convince a retailer to ask his/her minimum wage staff to pay attention to this, but it's worth a try.

[InquisitiveMind]

InquisitiveMind - You have my sympathies. I totally understand why your mom is being secretive and defensive about this, especially since it sounds like your dad has said some pretty cruel things to her about it.

Yes... I have been trying to serve as a mitigating presence since she is much more willing to take the positive needed actions when she doesn't feel attacked...

There are just so many red flags with her decision making...and the fact that this took place over the course of 2-3 months is indeed worrisome.

Yes. She has always had poor judgment, but this incident is really bothersome. Paying cash for $900 in iTunes giftcards didn't raise one concern in her mind...

Could you look for a "how to avoid scams targeted at older people" class locally?

Great idea; I will look into this. I've also searched around for books on this topic, but these are surprisingly sparse or of low quality. I provided her some URLs with info about avoiding scams, and she thanked me, so that is a start to her education.

Tough lesson for her, but at least it wasn't a forever-life-changing amount of money.

Yes, we're hoping that once all of the follow-ups are finished, the loss will be limited to the $1,275 already gone. I told her to consider changing her Social Security number...

Bankers, financial advisers, and other legit financial professionals are trained (and sometimes required) to ask these types of questions, depending on the amount & circumstances. I'd be surprised if you were able to convince a retailer to ask his/her minimum wage staff to pay attention to this, but it's worth a try.

Thanks for your input. I'll be interested to see the response I get from the manager when I make this request.

[Rubic]

My standing policy now is that if someone falls for this, I buy them a Chromebook.  It's cheaper than my time and sanity to try to fix their Windows box.   I've handed out several Chromebooks so far, and it has done a wonderful job of keeping my tech support burden low...

+1

Three years ago I purchased mom a Chromebook for Christmas.  Best investment / gift
I've ever given her.

[TrMama]

Those mailed donation solicitations are also an issue; my father tosses at least 5-10 of those that are sent to her each day...

Does anyone know if this is legit for the junk mail registry, or if this is shady? http://www.directmail.com/mail_preference/ I am not finding an official-looking site for requesting the stoppage of junk postal mail...

One more thought. Once you get the address and phone# added to the Do Not Call registry, have your dad answer ever single solicitation call with, "Please remove this number from your call list". I do that every time we get a call and it helps. I do the same thing with all the catalogs that come to the house for MIL. Of course, it only works until she orders something from them again. However, it has helped to weed out her least favorite mail order services.

Similarly, since the scammers have her phone# I'd see if you can get their # blocked. If she uses a cell phone, many allow you to block individual numbers. If she uses a land line I think you have to go through the phone company to get the # blocked.

[InquisitiveMind]

Three years ago I purchased mom a Chromebook for Christmas.  Best investment / gift I've ever given her.

Thanks for your input, Rubic; I checked out the Chromebook options, and see that these are very affordable. If I can convince her to switch from a desktop to a laptop, this seems like a great choice.

One more thought. Once you get the address and phone# added to the Do Not Call registry, have your dad answer ever single solicitation call with, "Please remove this number from your call list". I do that every time we get a call and it helps. I do the same thing with all the catalogs that come to the house for MIL. Of course, it only works until she orders something from them again. However, it has helped to weed out her least favorite mail order services.

Thanks for the suggestion, TrMama. My father does a combination of requesting to be removed from call lists and just hanging up. :) What I learned from calling the Do Not Call registry yesterday to confirm that their number is on the list, is that if solicitors still call numbers included on that list, you're allowed to ask them for their company name and phone number, and can file a formal complaint against them. A hope would be that, at least for the semi-legitimate enterprises, requesting their company info in order to escalate things to that level might convince them to stop calling.

Similarly, since the scammers have her phone# I'd see if you can get their # blocked. If she uses a cell phone, many allow you to block individual numbers. If she uses a land line I think you have to go through the phone company to get the # blocked.

They have her cell phone #; I will suggest to her that she have the numerous phone numbers the scammers used blocked on that phone.

[Cassie]

You have to really be bad off to be determined incompetent.   If you know the date, who is president etc courts do not consider you incompetent.

[InquisitiveMind]

You have to really be bad off to be determined incompetent.   If you know the date, who is president etc courts do not consider you incompetent.

Thanks for the clarification, Cassie; yes, she is nowhere near that mental state and is still mostly functional.

[NeonPegasus]

I'm sorry you're dealing this. I'm starting to deal with this with my 69 year old dad. A scammer called him and told him he would qualify for a $9k grant for something or other but he would need to pay them for some processing fees. My step mom thought it was a scam and called me. I confirmed it with her and she told my dad. My dad wouldn't listen. I got on the phone with him and explained it was a scam. He didn't listen. While I was on the phone with him, my step mom told the guy at the money wiring desk at Walmart what was going on and then he told my dad it was a scam. Together, we were able to get him to leave.

I later told my step mom to block the number on my dad's phone in case they tried to call him again. He caught her doing so and got mad because he had planned to call them back and make them give him the grant without him paying them any money. I mean, how delusional!

My dad was making multimillion dollar business deals before he retired 4 years ago. The decline in his mental functioning since then is shocking and we can't get him to see a doctor. Furthermore, he was always the one to deal with financial matters so my step-mom is very much helpless to stop him.

So, no real advice, only commiseration.

[Cassie]

If your Dad went from a powerful job to doing nothing it could be severe depression.  4 years is too fast to go that far downhill. Too bad he won't see a doctor because he may just need some meaningful activities to occupy his time and maybe some meds.  Retirement can be a very difficult adjustment for some people.

[Miss Piggy]

Remember the comedian whose schtick was "You know you're a redneck if..."?

A financial institution or AARP should create a "You know it's a scam if..." checklist. A "yes" to any question on the checklist means you are being scammed.

[InquisitiveMind]

Thanks for sharing your story, NeonPegasus; I'm so sorry that your father is struggling. That must be extremely frustrating to have him so actively insist on pursuing an ignorant action; I'm holding out hope that if we can improve communications with my mother, and she discusses such potential activities with us in the future, she would not continue on the wrong path once we alerted her to problems.

On a lighter note, I will recommend the movie Nebraska, which has a very similar theme to your father's situation, but mixes in some humor with the tragedy, and imho reaches a touching conclusion.

Remember the comedian whose schtick was "You know you're a redneck if..."?
A financial institution or AARP should create a "You know it's a scam if..." checklist. A "yes" to any question on the checklist means you are being scammed.

My aunt (not coincidentally, my mother's sister...) had an extended "relationship" with an online scammer she met on an online dating site after her husband had passed away. I didn't hear about this situation until she was supposedly deeply involved with him, but I assembled everything I knew about him and compared it against this checklist that I found (Recognizing an Online Dating Scam Artist: https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/sandiego/news/press-releases/fbi-warns-of-online-dating-scams). I presented my aunt with an itemized list of all of the ways in which this scammer met each one of the listed criteria (including using the photo, identified via reverse-photo lookup, of an Italian actor). Fortunately, she listened to reason and called him out on his scam. Even more fortunately, he hadn't taken it to the stage of having asked her for money yet, so she was able to laugh about it and move on...

[Just Joe]

Those mailed donation solicitations are also an issue; my father tosses at least 5-10 of those that are sent to her each day...

Does anyone know if this is legit for the junk mail registry, or if this is shady? http://www.directmail.com/mail_preference/ I am not finding an official-looking site for requesting the stoppage of junk postal mail...

One more thought. Once you get the address and phone# added to the Do Not Call registry, have your dad answer ever single solicitation call with, "Please remove this number from your call list". I do that every time we get a call and it helps. I do the same thing with all the catalogs that come to the house for MIL. Of course, it only works until she orders something from them again. However, it has helped to weed out her least favorite mail order services.

Similarly, since the scammers have her phone# I'd see if you can get their # blocked. If she uses a cell phone, many allow you to block individual numbers. If she uses a land line I think you have to go through the phone company to get the # blocked.

Our landline cordless phone allows us to block numbers too. You have to have caller ID for this to work though. The callers are getting more mischievous though and calling from the same number plus or minus the area code. Just block them again. "BOA" has been calling us this week. Never a message, always a hangup. We have them blocked. Not a Bank of America in my financial portfolio anyhow, nor a branch in my town.

[Dicey]

How is your mom's mental state?

It's a good question, and one that concerns us. In general, she exhibits poor judgment, e.g. agreeing to donate to cold-calling solicitors on the phone, getting involved in MLM schemes, and being a member of a religious cult, but she has always been like that... We are indeed keeping a close eye on these kinds of behaviors... The tough part is how to intervene if *we* decide that her behavior is problematic, but *she* doesn't see a problem with it...

Do you think you mom could have Aspergers Alzheimer's? Behavior like this may not be only a reflection of dementia especially if she has a history of such behavior.

I wonder if you meant something else? FTFY, I think.

[jan62]

so sorry to hear this has happened to your mum.  just thought I would share my experience to encourage you to act now to prevent an even worse scenario.

I've worked in aged care for years so am very familiar with dementia, even ran a dementia special care unit for several years, however that did not stop my mum losing all her lifes savings and ending up bankrupt when she was scammed by a supposedly 'nice helpful' lady at her church ( who is now in jail).  My mum at times appeared to show poor judgement and get a moody when I suggested any problems. I rang her dr and asked him to check her for dementia at her next visit- he did and she scored OK on the Mini Mental exam ( lots of people with early dementia do) do I could not get anyone to take my concerns seriously.

I was concerned about mums increasing talk about this woman, mum had a heart of gold and would always help out people in need, she told me this lady was in need of some help and she had given her a small amount of money. Once I started to caution her about this and my concerns she just would no longer discuss it with me, when I'd go to visit she would sometimes pretend she wasn't home. I was really unsure how to handle it and no siblings to help.  Eventually she promised me she wouldn't give this woman any more money.

Fast forward a few months down the track and mum got suddenly very ill and was hospitalised. She was diagnosed with Alzheimers and her memory was shot. As I started to sort out her papers I found that this woman had forged documents and stolen all her savings, ran up bills in her name and stolen some family heirlooms from the home.  Then we had to go through the process of declaring bankruptcy.  There was no ability to take action as mum was so confused she couldn't make a statement and there were letters she had signed stating she was giving her the money as a gift or that she had authority to operate her account.

I felt very guilty that this had happened and only wish I had intervened more aggressively much sooner. I also wish I had demanded a thorough dementia assessment instead of settling for the GPs screen.

I would really encourage you to get her assesed fully, she will not want it or like and she will probably be very angry but its just part of caring for an ageing parent and if you act now you might be able to prevent bigger losses. I would also encourage you to get her to give you authority to use her accounts so you can keep an eye on whats happening.  Its a very difficult situation!

[NeonPegasus]

If your Dad went from a powerful job to doing nothing it could be severe depression.  4 years is too fast to go that far downhill. Too bad he won't see a doctor because he may just need some meaningful activities to occupy his time and maybe some meds.  Retirement can be a very difficult adjustment for some people.

Depression? Undoubtedly. Throw in the following and shake until well mixed: No real hobbies, severe hearing loss so he basically guesses what you're saying, alcohol abuse, a wife with multiple physical ailments that has made it very hard for her to travel (his one hobby that he loved), and a step-son who is a (non-violent) ex-con with medical problems that doctors can't diagnose but prevent him from being able to work. Because of him being an ex-con, they can't even rent an apartment for him so he has to live with them.

He refuses almost all medical interventions, including hearing aids. We can't get him to stop drinking long enough to see a doctor and figure out whether he's got dementia issues, physical alcohol dependency and/or an underlying liver problem.

My brother and I are working to help my stepmom find out about their financial status so she can protect their assets.

[HoustonSker]

How is your mom's mental state?

It's a good question, and one that concerns us. In general, she exhibits poor judgment, e.g. agreeing to donate to cold-calling solicitors on the phone, getting involved in MLM schemes, and being a member of a religious cult, but she has always been like that... We are indeed keeping a close eye on these kinds of behaviors... The tough part is how to intervene if *we* decide that her behavior is problematic, but *she* doesn't see a problem with it...

Good lord, sounds strikingly similar to my mom.  The older she gets the more disconnected from reality and rational thinking she gets.  She’s been a converted Jehovah’s Witness for decades so she’s very susceptible to cold calls and otherwise “needy” people because she inherently sees them as potential converts.  To her, it’s normal but to an objective outsider, it’s awkward and embarrassing to watch.  Anyways, best of luck managing the ongoing situation. 

[InquisitiveMind]

Thanks for sharing your story about your mom, jan62; how very sad. :(

My mom always prided herself on not going to doctors, but in the last few months, her health has really started to decline (hip problems and consequent trouble walking, neurological problems, significant macular degeneration), and now she is turning into an 'old person' with regular doctor visits and has started taking prescription meds for the first time. I will definitely be on the alert for situations similar to what happened to your mom, and I'm hoping that her pending visit to a neurologist might identify the source of some of these physiological and mental problems.


Thanks for sharing, HoustonSker; yes, I agree that from an external perspective, these behaviors are quite irrational. Having to write out these descriptions in compact form has been a bit jarring for me, as I am condensing all of my mom's poor choices into a small space, and these descriptions are making her sound much more crazy than one would perceive from daily interactions with her...
 

[Goldielocks]

Instead of doubling down on what your Dad is saying, I would seek out examples (newspapers, online video interviews) where real people acknowledge having fallen for a scam (often much more).  Tell her how proud you are that she was able to stop it before it got any further, alerting you and the police, etc.

It is the embarrassment and hiding it that causes most people to lose THOUSANDS of dollars.   You mom was actually quite good, to call a stop to it, even after realizing that she had been suckered for a lot of money.  At this point, some people try to throw more money at the scammers in the hopes of reclaiming the lost amounts.

Really.  Normal, intelligent people get scammed all the time.  Yes, she fell for what seems to be an obvious one to us youngsters... I know I have almost donated via giving out my CC  to a smooth taking "charity" that called me up.   The only thing that save me was when he asked for the credit card, and I had it in my hand was "Wait -- YOU called ME... my rule is to never give out bank / cc info over the phone to anyone that has called ME... can you send me a letter request instead?"   

My Dad, who is pretty smart and helps other people not get scammed, was sold a projector / stereo off the back of a truck a couple of years ago.  "Look at the deal I got!"   um... Dad?!

If you don't do this, but start talking about  possible dementia, and divorce by your Dad, what will happen the next time she makes a money mistake of any kind?

[StockBeard]

I'm posting here partially to vent, and partially to ask for advice. I can't see how she will be able to continue using her computer after this incident, as it certainly contains who knows what forms of malware that likely won't all be removed even with careful sanitization. Is there a consensus that we should just chuck the computer? It was not expensive and could be replaced for a few hundred dollars at most; she only uses it for activities like email and Facebook.

My wife got similarly scammed about 2 years ago*. Thankfully she got suspicious right at the point where they asked for money (but after they had installed their remote control software on her computer).

After researching this type of scam, the people running them are usually not particularly tech savvy, and they follow a simple script. Their usual M.O. is: if you pay, they're happy and don't mess up your computer. If you don't, they install something that will encrypt your hard drive and will ask for ransom in exchange for payment.
Since your mom paid, what is likely is that:
1) there is probably no malware on your grandma's PC, but you could either do a fresh install or run some of the popular anti-malware tools (not antivirus)
2) The scammer now have your mom's phone number/information, and they know she is an easy prey. They will most likely call her again to "renew" the attack, and they will probably circulate (sell) her information. It feels to me that it would be more important for her to change her phone number than the computer.

If you want to relax about the whole situation, I particularly recommend youtube channel "the hoax hotel" (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnNlJNSRxa3PF8XrKHOEPug ), it's a guy who calls those scammers and gives them a run for their money, and it's hilarious. I felt it particularly enjoyable to know there is someone who gets revenge in our name.

* This is even more nerve racking that I'm a software engineer with a strong background in hacking (including social engineering), and have told my wife numerous stories about gullible people. At least your mom has a good excuse of not being familiar with this.

[MoMan]

I went through this exact scenario last February with my 81 year old mom. For the computer viruses (I took her laptop back to Geek Squad a couple of times) Google Chrome was the answer. I haven’t had any real problems since.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/protecting-the-elderly-stache-dealing-with-scammers-etc/msg1429542/#msg1429542

Now my main battle is weening her off an expensive “hobby”: Donating to charitable causes, most of which are slimy fucks who guilt the elderly into many, many small donations. We took her checkbook away from her last month. Just today I discovered she donated to something using her credit card. Not sure what we will do next.

Best of luck!

[jim555]

I have gotten those "Windows Technical Support" scam calls.  Now those "IRS" scam calls have started up again, just when I thought they got busted.
I don't have an answer on protecting those who fall prey to these scams.

[Just Joe]

Its fun getting those Microsoft Support calls. They tell you about all sorts of problems with your computer which is actually running Linux...

I set up a husband/wife pair that we are friends with on Mint Linux b/c they were often clicking on anything and everything and I was clearing the viruses.

That stopped it in its tracks. They are very happy now.