My awful boss wants to be my buddy

[Runrooster]

I’m having serious growing pains in my newish job. I’ve been here about 15 months and within 3 my coworker and I bonded over my bosses attitude issue. She’s condescending sarcastic impatient - both of us are in the entry level job so her expectations are wildly unrealistic. But I know what it’s like to be experienced and have no memory of what it’s like to be new.  And she has a lot on her plate, and I’ve had rude bosses in the past. Having helpful coworkers on a day to day basis makes a job bearable. Which is a different issue.

She actually said she noticed I don’t ask her for help. Maybe because you’re always in meetings and sarcastic when I do ask?   I’ve been fantasizing about quitting. I dont really need the money, I don’t have anything else lined up and it would be hard to find something comparable. I don’t want to be retired yet. But maybe sitting at home twiddling my thumbs would be better than this job. I don’t feel appreciated, supported, productive, and I’m not having fun.

But what I find annoying is that she small talks me about her weekend - revolves around alcohol and football- or what toy she bought her 2 year old. I’m not in your mommy group, I do not want to gush over the playhouse you built.  Obviously the two things are related: if I liked her as a boss, I’d be willing to care more about her weekend. Or if I didn’t think she has a drinking problem?  And then she’s telling me she didn’t like hummus as a teenager. She still barely eats vegetables. She’s about 20 years younger. I was driving on the highway when she sent me a text asking if I could bring her a towel. I don’t text while I’m driving but I thought of some snarky comments mirroring hers to me. She made a mixup between two work parties and I wanted to throw that in her face when she complained about having to spend an extra minute out of her day explaining that she was talking about y project not x project, something my senior colleague didn’t figure out either. Like, lower your expectations or fire me, because I’m maxed out in how hard I can try.

Am I a bad person for just not wanting to socialize with her?  The other 4 people on the team go along with it. I tell myself it’s just small talk, nod and smile. It’s like fine, you’re busy, I’m new and stupid, be rude to me, you’re allowed. But don’t turn around and expect me to be your buddy.

[lhamo]

Why not be honest?  You don't need this job, so you don't really need to play the traditional games.  And it doesn't matter if she fires you, since you already are FIREd. 

Personally I would probably quit.  Life is too short to waste so much time in an unpleasant situation.

[Sibley]

It's not a choice between staying at this job and sitting at your house twiddling your thumbs. Want to volunteer? Get a different job?

And you're not required to be friends with your boss. Shouldn't actually. Friendly is not friends.

[Dicey]

Since you have nothing to lose, I'd think about pushing back, albeit gently at first. I think the response in your head could easily be verbalized.

"She actually said she noticed I don’t ask her for help. Maybe because you’re always in meetings and sarcastic when I do ask?"

There have been times in my life when I've been accused of being condescending. It cuts like a knife, and I always rehash what I said and how I said it, looking for the reason why someone felt that way. Who knows? She might have the same reaction.

I've also been accused of being sarcastic, but I'm totally owning that :-)

[Runrooster]

I’m depressed and anxious which filters my view of my options. But, totally I thought about whether I could gently voice my point of view. The odd thing is, we just went through performance reviews. It starts with a self review and I reflected honestly in where I am not meeting her stated expectations and the lack of resources I had to meet them. She responded much more positively, perhaps because she knows my failures are hers.  In person, she said to focus on how much I have accomplished. Then 5 seconds later undid all her positive comments with a laundry list of my failures.

The bottom line is, I don’t think she cares that her expectations are insane. She trotted them out, we show you something once, you forget (some component) 3 months later. It’s total BS. I don’t have a photographic memory, in a 20 step process I forgot something, didn’t take notes that included that step because it seemed obvious in the moment. Even in situations where I’ve taped the initial training and have their notes, something is missing.  I can tell I’ve missed a step, something is off, just saying “we showed you once 3 months ago, you did it right then, keep digging you’ll figure it out” is straight up nuts. And it’s not like either of them learn perfectly on the first try, the boss took 3 tries on the credentialing exams where the training is infinitely more detailed and documented.

And realistically I don’t think she can change. Impatient people don’t become amazing teachers overnight. Even if they want to, which I don’t think she will.

[Villanelle]

You sound miserable.  I'd be quitting.  It doesn't really matter whether your expectations are reasonable or not?  You don't like this job, and you don't need this job.  So why do you have this job? 

I'd also spend some time exploring why I thought not working for pay meant "sitting around and twiddling my thumbs".  Do you have no interests at all outside work?  No hobby to practice or learn from scratch?  No causes close to your heart for which you might volunteer?  Heck, no part time job to be found at an independent bookstore, coffee shop, gardening center, or comic book store?  Or something aligned with your interests?  Is there really nothing at all you want to do with your time? 

[Metalcat]

I'm curious, what about not wanting to socialize with someone who is awful to you makes you think you might be a "bad person?"

[ender]

I don't think you're a bad person for not wanting to socialize with your boss.

I instead would focus on how questionable it is you'd work a job you seem to hate for a both you seem to despise, though.

[Sibley]

I’m depressed and anxious which filters my view of my options.

Found the issue. Please take whatever steps are required to put yourself first. Your mental health is important. If that means you quit, or go part time, or anything else, do that.

[vand]

15 months in is not still a new job.
Sounds pretty bog standard passive/aggressive mildly toxic workplace arrangement to me. Is the paycheck outstanding? Otherwise, what else keeps you there?

[clarkfan1979]

Is it really your boss that is awful or is it the job that is awful? The boss is sometimes just the messenger telling the employee to do something that they don't want to do.

The current job doesn't seem like a good fit. I would start looking for another job. However, I personally wouldn't quit until I have something else lined up. When you leave, thank them for the opportunity. Don't burn any bridges.   

[Josiecat22222]

 In a nutshell: No you are not a bad person because you don't want to be buddy buddy with your toxic boss.  Even if your boss was an awesome person, you would not be a bad person if you don't want to be buddy buddy with him/her.  It's work.  They have to pay you to get you to show up.  You are not there to socialize, you are there to complete a task and you are, in fact, trading your time for their money.  So that's that.


That said, she sounds awful.  If you are not enjoying your work or the company at your work and you don't need the money, why would you stay???   There are a lot of reasons that may make sense (great benefits/flexibility/this is the next step on a ladder to your dream job, etc) but IIRC, you said this was 15mo into an entry level job and you don't need the money.  Sounds like it is time to explore what you would like to do with your time.

Best wishes,
Josie

[GilesMM]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

[FINate]

The only way to fix a bad boss is getting a new one. Management is mostly a product of environment, so your boss is very likely behaving as she's learned from her boss(es). Having unrealistic expectations is a management technique based on the idea that the business is right and justified to squeeze as much as possible from employees.

Your co-workers that go along with her small talk? I'd be willing to bet that they need the job and the money, and so they're playing the game. If your boss is smart, she understands that they aren't really her friends, but the charade is useful to her as a loyalty test.

IMO, look for a new job or retire.

[rantk81]

If you really wouldn't miss the income of the job, then you can obviously just stop working there.

I don't know all of the circumstances, and I don't know how toxic this person really is.  But I've "managed" having bad bosses in the past, even ones who were occasionally chatty/chummy.  It didn't really bother me to just exchange platitudes, being respectful but not being overly "warm" or "cold" in passing.  Unless the boss was particularly bad (like to the point of being a metaphorical 'back-stabber' or sabotaging my work), it doesn't bother me to play the game and say "oh that's nice, sounds like you had a good/bad/interesting weekend!"  or something neutral.  In some cases, I've found that being a little "warm" to bad bosses (who are often all caught up in their own issues), causes them to occasionally be a little bit less-toxic in the work place.

Of course, I don't know your situation, or how bad this person really is.

[simonsez]

I’ve been fantasizing about quitting. I dont really need the money, I don’t have anything else lined up and it would be hard to find something comparable. I don’t want to be retired yet. But maybe sitting at home twiddling my thumbs would be better than this job. I don’t feel appreciated, supported, productive, and I’m not having fun.

If retired = "sitting at home twiddling your thumbs", I have some great news for you!  It doesn't have to like that, at all!

You could garden, visit friends and family, play music, hike, ride bikes, golf, read in the hammock, upgrade the part of your house that's bothered you, buy that run-down vehicle and inject life back into it (to either enjoy yourself or make a buck on it), take time to focus on your body and mental health by joining any number of classes and networks, play tennis, volunteer with local organizations that you have a passion for, tent camp/car trip/RV/etc. explore the country and the world, brew beer, make cheese, smoke meats, make your own clothing, become really good at bridge, pickleball league, bake, tend an orchard, go hunting or out into the wilderness, landscape, become skilled with metal or wood or pottery, babysit, have pets, find the church/coffeeshop/bar/restaurant/farmer's market that fits you, become an election worker, join a volunteer fire department, donate blood/plasma every few months, etc.  Challenge your brain and body and serve those in your network to the best of your ability.  Make your corner of the universe slightly better with you existing in it (i.e. someone will appreciate it and consider you productive and support you and you might just have fun while you're at it!).  Take frequent timeouts to realize how lucky we are to exist in this time, in a part of the world with immense freedom - to remind ourselves to not waste the precious time that has been granted to us while on this rock. >99% of the ~110 billion humans to have ever lived would jump at the chance to switch places with you in a heartbeat.

If your boss is awful and you don't need the money, why stay?  Seems like you could spend your time a little more efficiently.

[TheFrenchCat]

Are you generally an outwardly friendly person?  I thankfully have only had one bad boss, so that hasn't come up for me, but I've definitely been in the situation where someone I don't like thinks I want to be friends with them.  I do generally try to be personable, so that's probably why that occasionally happens.  If you are too, I'm not saying to stop, but if you want to keep this job (which I don't think I'd recommend), you might want to set limits with your responses.  I'll try to be polite but not too involved and keep the "friendship" more distant and not give out personal details in return. 

But it sounds like the bigger problem is the rest of your boss' behavior, so I'll echo the others in saying that it seems like it's time to start moving on to something else.  If you're interested in volunteering somewhere, you could start somewhere on the evenings and weekends while you still have your job, and if you like it, you could quit to focus more on that. 

[trollwithamustache]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

[Metalcat]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

[trollwithamustache]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change. 

[TimCFJ40]

I've had three very toxic, narcissistic bosses.  In all three cases, I eventually left and found new, better opportunities.

That said, I tried to work with the first one to improve the relationship/set boundaries/offer feedback/ to try and improve the situation.  In the end, this earned me a passive aggressive meeting with a request that I change (or else), and I put in my notice shortly afterwards.

With the other two toxic bosses, I played nice, excelled at my job, didn't engage with their negative behavior, and they both loved me.  Each of them offered me promotions, (I don't fly too close to the sun when things are getting hot, so I turned them down), Eventually after I realized I wouldn't outlast them, I found better opportunities.

The closer to FI I get, the less BS I tolerate.  Be professional, kick ass at your job, but you don't have to be buddies with anyone, or put up with anyone's shit you don't want to. 

Listening to your situation, I'd start actively looking for new opportunities, and set yourself a drop dead date, i.e. by March 31st 2024 I'll either have a new boss, a new job (or volunteer opportunity you are passionate about), or quit.  Having an end date can help things along if you are stuck in the trap of being afraid to act. 

[MaybeBabyMustache]

A few thoughts:
1) you are not enjoying your work, and don't need the money. Quit.
2) Small talk shouldn't be this hard, and yes, some small amount of small talk at work is a light expectation. Hi, how are you? How was your weekend. It sounds like you don't like or respect her as a person (which sounds deserved), but nothing she's talking about seems particularly inappropriate. I have a coworker who talks a lot about a hobby I find boring. NBD. He knows I'm a runner, and therefore shares quite a bit of detail about his 100 mile runs, the training, the prep, the food you have to pack, etc. I gently redirect, use body language cues to indicate I'm busy, sometimes get up, etc.
3) Have you given her feedback on why you don't ask for help? When she brought up that you hadn't asked for help, were you (politely) candid? Oh, I got the sense that asking for help was irritating to you (be prepared to share examples), so I thought it made more sense to try on my own, or ask ABC for help.

[Metalcat]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

[eyesonthehorizon]

... I was driving on the highway when she sent me a text asking if I could bring her a towel. ...

So this might be an entirely expected thing to request in your line of work, but otherwise - what the hell??

[GilesMM]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

Boundaries work ok for animals, like fences for cows, but people not so much.  She can ask the boss not to share as much, but boss will typically do what boss wants to do...

[Metalcat]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

Boundaries work ok for animals, like fences for cows, but people not so much.  She can ask the boss not to share as much, but boss will typically do what boss wants to do...

What an odd thing to say...

[neo von retorch]

Boundaries are a real tool for intelligent humans to use to communicate to each other what works for their relationship and what does not. Anyone that puts any effort into understanding how humans relate to each other can learn this important tool and appreciate it, and wouldn't confuse it for the physical analogy.

[ender]

Boundaries are a real tool for intelligent humans to use to communicate to each other what works for their relationship and what does not. Anyone that puts any effort into understanding how humans relate to each other can learn this important tool and appreciate it, and wouldn't confuse it for the physical analogy.

+1 though I suspect if someone has no concept of ever having conversations which set boundaries, the physical analogy might make sense as how boundaries "work."

[GilesMM]

Boundaries are a real tool for intelligent humans to use to communicate to each other what works for their relationship and what does not. Anyone that puts any effort into understanding how humans relate to each other can learn this important tool and appreciate it, and wouldn't confuse it for the physical analogy.

+1 though I suspect if someone has no concept of ever having conversations which set boundaries, the physical analogy might make sense as how boundaries "work."

You can try "boundaries" but if the other party chooses to do their own thing, they are just your boundaries and not theirs.  People do as they like all too often.

[Villanelle]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

Boundaries work ok for animals, like fences for cows, but people not so much.  She can ask the boss not to share as much, but boss will typically do what boss wants to do...

Have you really never set a personal boundary in your life, or had someone set one with you?  This is such an odd response.  Sure, they don't always work as intended or you have to resort to consequences when they are ignored.  In this case, that could look like this:  OP:  I was very uncomfortable when you texted me to bring you a towel.  That's well outside the scope of my responsibilities, and also feels demeaning and inappropriate.  Please don't do it again."  Manager: does it again.  OP:  We discussed this.  Since you can't respect the boundary I set, from now on, I will not be answering any calls from you on my personal cell phone.  If you want me to answer calls during the work day, you will need to provide me with a phone and pay for service.  And if calls to that phone are not of a work-specific nature ONLY, I will report this to HR." 

It's not just a fence.  It's an electric fence that zaps someone when they get too close..  And the fence builder can adjust those zaps so the are increasingly unpleasant for the figurative cow.  That could eventually be.  "You continue to be inappropriate with me, despite number conversations about this.  I'm tendering my resignation as I won't continue to work with someone who can't respect my boundaries and behave in a professional manner.  I'm also notifying HR of the situation. "   

No one is saying boundaries are a magic forcefield that can't be breached.  If you tell your gross uncle that racist jokes at Thanksgiving are not okay and he makes another one, you then either leave dinner or tell him to leave your home if you are hosting.  You set the boundary and then you *maintain* the boundary. 

[ender]

Boundaries are a real tool for intelligent humans to use to communicate to each other what works for their relationship and what does not. Anyone that puts any effort into understanding how humans relate to each other can learn this important tool and appreciate it, and wouldn't confuse it for the physical analogy.

+1 though I suspect if someone has no concept of ever having conversations which set boundaries, the physical analogy might make sense as how boundaries "work."

You can try "boundaries" but if the other party chooses to do their own thing, they are just your boundaries and not theirs.  People do as they like all too often.

OP has a pretty clear and obvious consequence if the boss ignores their boundary here. They just quit (though I'd say they should quit now anyways given their clear feelings on the matter).

The reason so many of us are saying to set a boundary here is because the OP isn't standing up for themselves and is letting the boss do things which they clearly perceive as a negative to them. Without communicating anything.

For all we know, the boss is going to go "oh thank god, I hate forcing small talk" and be appreciative of OP for clearly articulating what they want/need out of the relationship. I've worked with a lot of people who try to force small talk out of some feeling of it being how you connect with people. They would have LOVED someone like OP to clearly tell them, "look, I don't really enjoy this type of conversation. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Please stop."

And yes, if someone sets boundaries they don't believe in and won't take action when violated? Those aren't meaningful. But that's my entire point - if you haven't set boundaries before, your fence analogy makes some sense. But for someone who has actually defined, set, and enforced boundaries? It's a silly example.

[curious_george]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

Boundaries work ok for animals, like fences for cows, but people not so much.  She can ask the boss not to share as much, but boss will typically do what boss wants to do...

What an odd thing to say...

I suspect Giles did not read the chapter in your book on boundaries...

[Metalcat]

I suspect Giles did not read the chapter in your book on boundaries...

It's a good chapter ;)

[GilesMM]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

Boundaries work ok for animals, like fences for cows, but people not so much.  She can ask the boss not to share as much, but boss will typically do what boss wants to do...

What an odd thing to say...

I suspect Giles did not read the chapter in your book on boundaries...

You guys seem determined to make this about me rather than the topic at hand.

[Metalcat]

You guys seem determined to make this about me rather than the topic at hand.

Threads derail when someone says something that a bunch of people disagree with.

Feel free to try and get it back on the OP topic if you have more to say on that.

[curious_george]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

Boundaries work ok for animals, like fences for cows, but people not so much.  She can ask the boss not to share as much, but boss will typically do what boss wants to do...

What an odd thing to say...

I suspect Giles did not read the chapter in your book on boundaries...

You guys seem determined to make this about me rather than the topic at hand.

I think it is a misunderstanding about how boundaries work, imo.

Boundaries are not about controlling what other people say. It's about clearly explaining how what they say or do makes you feel, explaining how you expect them to change their behavior, and sometimes explaining the consequences you will take if they don't change their behavior.

Maybe I am reading too far into this, but it seems like you believe boundaries are about controlling what other people say and do (which is impossible). Boundaries are more about self empowerment and self-expression.

If the awful boss doesn't respond well to someone expecting them to change their behavior then that is their fault. But if someone never even tells an awful person that what they're doing is awful and how it makes them feel, then it's sort of the person's fault as well for never vocalizing this information.

That is my understanding anyway. I'm certainly not an expert and have no background in therapy and have never been to therapy.

[GilesMM]

You guys seem determined to make this about me rather than the topic at hand.

Threads derail when someone says something that a bunch of people disagree with.

Feel free to try and get it back on the OP topic if you have more to say on that.

I guess if 5 out of more than 20 posters qualifies as "a bunch", but still no reason to "derail" the thread.  Just keep it on topic.


The OP is dealing with someone who is 1) her boss and 2) clearly narcissistic and 3) possibly way out to lunch.  The idea that a couple of remarks setting "boundaries" could fix this person is unrealistic in my view and likely to hurt the relationship.  The OP appears to be viewed by the boss as some sort of paid personal assistant (towel fetcher) and shoulder to cry on.  Take home the pay and do that job as best you can until ready to move along to something different.  Fighting this will likely make it worse; I would just play along and in fact play up to this needy person's ego.  It's all a game after all!

[Villanelle]

You guys seem determined to make this about me rather than the topic at hand.

Threads derail when someone says something that a bunch of people disagree with.

Feel free to try and get it back on the OP topic if you have more to say on that.

I guess if 5 out of more than 20 posters qualifies as "a bunch", but still no reason to "derail" the thread.  Just keep it on topic.


The OP is dealing with someone who is 1) her boss and 2) clearly narcissistic and 3) possibly way out to lunch.  The idea that a couple of remarks setting "boundaries" could fix this person is unrealistic in my view and likely to hurt the relationship.  The OP appears to be viewed by the boss as some sort of paid personal assistant (towel fetcher) and shoulder to cry on.  Take home the pay and do that job as best you can until ready to move along to something different.  Fighting this will likely make it worse; I would just play along and in fact play up to this needy person's ego.  It's all a game after all!

So you don't want anyone else to talk about boundaries and how they work or to disagree with you when you say the don't, but you want to talk about boundaries and how they are unrealistic and don't work? 

If I were OP, I'd just skip to the quitting, since they clearly state they don't need the money.  (If they aren't ready to retire, they can immediately start looking for a different job, though clearly that's not necessary.)  But if they aren't ready to call it quits just yet, trying to establish a boundary seems like a perfectly viable suggestion.  If it works, great--OP's situation gets better.  Problem mostly solved.  If it fails to move the needle at all on boss's behavior, then OP can still just quit. 

"Hey, get me a towel."  OP: chuckles; "That's so not part of my job.  Not happening." 

[GilesMM]

You guys seem determined to make this about me rather than the topic at hand.

Threads derail when someone says something that a bunch of people disagree with.

Feel free to try and get it back on the OP topic if you have more to say on that.

I guess if 5 out of more than 20 posters qualifies as "a bunch", but still no reason to "derail" the thread.  Just keep it on topic.


The OP is dealing with someone who is 1) her boss and 2) clearly narcissistic and 3) possibly way out to lunch.  The idea that a couple of remarks setting "boundaries" could fix this person is unrealistic in my view and likely to hurt the relationship.  The OP appears to be viewed by the boss as some sort of paid personal assistant (towel fetcher) and shoulder to cry on.  Take home the pay and do that job as best you can until ready to move along to something different.  Fighting this will likely make it worse; I would just play along and in fact play up to this needy person's ego.  It's all a game after all!

So you don't want anyone else to talk about boundaries and how they work or to disagree with you when you say the don't, but you want to talk about boundaries and how they are unrealistic and don't work? 
...

I do want them to talk about boundaries, if that pleases them, but they, and you, seem, instead to want to talk about me instead how to help the OP.  That doesn't really move her forward, though.  Back to "boundaries", for those who like them, and also to realistic solutions for the hapless OP.

[neo von retorch]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

[GilesMM]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

This is a perfect example of how I have made a clear a boundary ("focus on the topic, not the poster"), and people being people did what they wanted and ignored the boundary.  QED.

[ender]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

This is a perfect example of how I have made a clear a boundary ("focus on the topic, not the poster"), and people being people did what they wanted and ignored the boundary.  QED.

This is a perfect example of how someone doesn’t understand boundaries. QED.

[Villanelle]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

This is a perfect example of how I have made a clear a boundary ("focus on the topic, not the poster"), and people being people did what they wanted and ignored the boundary.  QED.

As several of us have pointed out, boundaries are established in part through "if, then".  Like you might say, "if you keep addressing me in this thread, I will leave the conversation."  A boundary isn't just a  tantrum where someone says, "NO!  DO WHAT I SAY, RIGHT NOW!" and that's it.

Since that is your approach to boundaries, it's now clear why you think they are ineffective.  A boundary is not the same as simply trying to bend someone else's behavior to your will by asking, or demanding, they do so.

Again, I boundary is, "if you continue to tell racist jokes, you will need to leave my home.  I won't have blantant, overt racists in my home or expose my kids to that language," not "NO MORE RACIST JOKES, Uncle John!"

[GilesMM]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

This is a perfect example of how I have made a clear a boundary ("focus on the topic, not the poster"), and people being people did what they wanted and ignored the boundary.  QED.

As several of us have pointed out, boundaries are established in part through "if, then".  Like you might say, "if you keep addressing me in this thread, I will leave the conversation."  A boundary isn't just a  tantrum where someone says, "NO!  DO WHAT I SAY, RIGHT NOW!" and that's it.

Since that is your approach to boundaries, it's now clear why you think they are ineffective.  A boundary is not the same as simply trying to bend someone else's behavior to your will by asking, or demanding, they do so.

Again, I boundary is, "if you continue to tell racist jokes, you will need to leave my home.  I won't have blantant, overt racists in my home or expose my kids to that language," not "NO MORE RACIST JOKES, Uncle John!"

That sounds a lot more like just giving up.  Do what I want or I quit my job. Do what I want or I'm taking my kids and running away.

[Villanelle]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

This is a perfect example of how I have made a clear a boundary ("focus on the topic, not the poster"), and people being people did what they wanted and ignored the boundary.  QED.

As several of us have pointed out, boundaries are established in part through "if, then".  Like you might say, "if you keep addressing me in this thread, I will leave the conversation."  A boundary isn't just a  tantrum where someone says, "NO!  DO WHAT I SAY, RIGHT NOW!" and that's it.

Since that is your approach to boundaries, it's now clear why you think they are ineffective.  A boundary is not the same as simply trying to bend someone else's behavior to your will by asking, or demanding, they do so.

Again, I boundary is, "if you continue to tell racist jokes, you will need to leave my home.  I won't have blantant, overt racists in my home or expose my kids to that language," not "NO MORE RACIST JOKES, Uncle John!"

That sounds a lot more like just giving up.  Do what I want or I quit my job. Do what I want or I'm taking my kids and running away.

So you think that anything other than sitting around and taking uncomfortable, bad, or inappropriate behavior is "giving up"?  And that somehow the suggestion to tell someone to knock it off or face consequences is more "giving up", and presumable in a bad way, than just resigning yourself to continuing to suck it up?  How is "continue to be mistreated" not giving up, but "if she doesn't stop making you feel uncomfortable after you explain, then leave the job you don't need anyway" is? 

Yes, "just continue to go to work everyday in an environment that makes you uncomfortable and depressed"  isn't giving up at all.  No, sir. 

[Kris]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

This is a perfect example of how I have made a clear a boundary ("focus on the topic, not the poster"), and people being people did what they wanted and ignored the boundary.  QED.

As several of us have pointed out, boundaries are established in part through "if, then".  Like you might say, "if you keep addressing me in this thread, I will leave the conversation."  A boundary isn't just a  tantrum where someone says, "NO!  DO WHAT I SAY, RIGHT NOW!" and that's it.

Since that is your approach to boundaries, it's now clear why you think they are ineffective.  A boundary is not the same as simply trying to bend someone else's behavior to your will by asking, or demanding, they do so.

Again, I boundary is, "if you continue to tell racist jokes, you will need to leave my home.  I won't have blantant, overt racists in my home or expose my kids to that language," not "NO MORE RACIST JOKES, Uncle John!"

That sounds a lot more like just giving up.  Do what I want or I quit my job. Do what I want or I'm taking my kids and running away.

So you think that anything other than sitting around and taking uncomfortable, bad, or inappropriate behavior is "giving up"?  And that somehow the suggestion to tell someone to knock it off or face consequences is more "giving up", and presumable in a bad way, than just resigning yourself to continuing to suck it up?  How is "continue to be mistreated" not giving up, but "if she doesn't stop making you feel uncomfortable after you explain, then leave the job you don't need anyway" is? 

Yes, "just continue to go to work everyday in an environment that makes you uncomfortable and depressed"  isn't giving up at all.  No, sir.

Agreed. “Not putting up with something is giving up” while “putting up with something you hate is not giving up” seems like a pretty strange mentality.

[curious_george]

You're being obstinate and dismissing a bunch of intelligent people explaining why you're wrong while you give bad advice, and then wondering why anyone is bothering to call you out.

Boundaries are a useful, realistic, practical tool. They need communicated and enforced to realize their potential. Pretending they are useless is avoiding the best tool you could have. It's bad advice.

This is a perfect example of how I have made a clear a boundary ("focus on the topic, not the poster"), and people being people did what they wanted and ignored the boundary.  QED.

As several of us have pointed out, boundaries are established in part through "if, then".  Like you might say, "if you keep addressing me in this thread, I will leave the conversation."  A boundary isn't just a  tantrum where someone says, "NO!  DO WHAT I SAY, RIGHT NOW!" and that's it.

Since that is your approach to boundaries, it's now clear why you think they are ineffective.  A boundary is not the same as simply trying to bend someone else's behavior to your will by asking, or demanding, they do so.

Again, I boundary is, "if you continue to tell racist jokes, you will need to leave my home.  I won't have blantant, overt racists in my home or expose my kids to that language," not "NO MORE RACIST JOKES, Uncle John!"

That sounds a lot more like just giving up.  Do what I want or I quit my job. Do what I want or I'm taking my kids and running away.

It seems like the alternative you are suggesting is to simply not say anything about the bad behavior, never express how it makes one feel, never set boundaries, and just go with the flow, which seems a lot more like just giving up to me...

Your approach of just not expressing yourself also doesn't seem very authentic to me. For the people who report to me - I *want* them to tell me if something I say makes them uncomfortable or hurts their feelings or stresses them out. I *want* authenticity in their feedback - it literally helps me to do my job better. I *want* them to feel safe around me to express how they think and feel. It actually feels good to me to know I can give someone a space where they feel safe to express themselves with me.

Don't you want people to be honest and authentic with you about how they think and feel? Or would you rather have relationships with mannequin's who never express their own feelings? People who are mirrors who simply validate your feelings?

Life is way more fun when you can express your thoughts and feelings and stand up for yourself by setting boundaries...It is like a whole new level of connecting better with both yourself and other people...

[trollwithamustache]

Personally, I'd be friendly with the boss. It's a solid work politics move. The goal here is not to sell your soul, but to make your life easier.

At the same time, I'd be sorting out how exactly unhappy I was and if I was really willing to change jobs over it. If I was looking for a new job? I'd still be friends with the Boss until I left.

Boundaries are actually a really healthy thing to have.

OP dislikes this person and doesn't need the job.

Boundaries are not working late or not coming in on Saturday or not approving paperwork you are pretty sure someone just pencil whipped. How is small talk in the office not part of being a socially functioning person? The  world is absolutely  stuffed full of people that are annoying and unlikeable.    Telling the boss they won't engage in small talk will just get OP laid off, and it sounds like if OP is still working, they want to work.

Again, if OP doesn't like it, they should find another job/situation, the boss won't change.

OP doesn't need the job and I'm assuming that the level of discomfort they have with their boss is pretty intense to come here and start a thread about it.

The social skill of being able to keep someone awful at arm's length is actually really valuable, and yes, it is a boundary.

Remember, OP doesn't need this job. If their boss is making the job too unpleasant, there's no risk in experimenting with social boundaries with them. And yes, leaving the job may in the end be the best move.

Boundaries work ok for animals, like fences for cows, but people not so much.  She can ask the boss not to share as much, but boss will typically do what boss wants to do...

What an odd thing to say...

well I've been out trolled!

[Cassie]

In addition to the bad boss it sounds like you aren’t enjoying the actual job either. If that’s the case I would definitely look for a different job. I understand wanting to work because I am still doing part time consulting at 69. I tried volunteering and I found it unfulfilling and with some of the same problems as working.

Since I quit working full time 11 years ago I have spent all but 3 years working part time. I did get rid of the clients that I found annoying because at this age I don’t want to deal with anyone that isn’t pleasant. I certainly understand wanting to work whether you need the money or not. Maybe part time would be better for you.

[the_hobbitish]

OP you are not a bad person for having preferences. You don't need to let this boss or your coworkers going along with the small talk dictate what you do. You're perfectly ok for not enjoying it. You don't need the money. This job is not making you happy. Sounds like it's a great time to go out and find a job/volunteer work/social hobby that you do enjoy and that adds fulfillment instead of negativity to your life. Don't let yourself get stuck.