Support expectations from your parent or of your children

[maisymouser]

I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with what could potentially be an awkward or maybe stressful situation down the line.  I don't think children are obligated to care for their parents unless it is out of their own choice. That's my personal perspective, but I recognize that it is an acceptable one in the culture I grew up in.

The closest situation I can imagine in my own life is having an alcoholic sibling in law that is being supported by my in-laws. When they are no longer able to shield her from the consequences of her own actions, I fear she will come knocking on our door. In which case DH and I are already on the same page, and we will not be providing assistance.

You need to definitely be having discussions with your husband about this if you haven't already. There are some red flags in your post.

And what red flags are those.

I edited the OP, but I'll post this here, too.


DH and I have had many conversations about familial support--not just about his mom but also about his brother and my parents.  I didn't say DH and I haven't discussed it and I didn't imply we weren't on the same page. We are generally in agreement, at least while this is still theoretical, since we both admit--and have discussed--the fact that saying it is one thing and turning down guilt trips and sob stories from family will be much tougher in reality.  But we've talked many times and are in basic agreement, despite some of you assuming otherwise. I posted because I'm curious about how other people view the obligations/responsibilities of a child toward their parent, especially because DH's mom (and her husband) seem to have very different views on this than I (and DH, too!) do.

I wanted to respond to this a lot earlier but life happened. I meant red flags with the dynamic MIL has with you, not between you and DH.

[rocketpj]

I'm pretty sure my parents, or at least my mother, will be wanting me to provide some kind of non-financial assistance at their end of life.  No issues on financial assistance on either side of our family - both sets of parents are fine and unlikely to need any money.  In laws aren't likely to come to us as SIL and BIL are both living in their city and all quite close.

My folks moved out near us about 12 years ago.  Not next door, but in the next town about 18 km away, which is about perfect.  They have always been engaged, generous and kind and I'd have no issue helping them any way I can come the day.

We have spoken a bit about converting our detached garage into a carriage house to either provide housing to a parent at some point or move into it ourselves and provide the big house to a child & potential family since we are in a HCOL area where options to purchase homes are limited for young people.

[Duke03]

My mom has always been horrible with money.  Of course, if you listen to her, she has had bad luck her entire life.  The truth is she has come into substantial sums of money several times that could have set her up for a modest retirement, but every time the money was dust in the wind.  For years she has made comments that since I'm so rich and have a large house I should take care of her or give her a place to live.  I kindly remind her that we are a single-family income, and I can't take away from my children to take care of an adult who has had 74 years to figure it out.  This is coming from a person that just bought a brand-new car and will take monthly casino trips.  The truth is my mom doesn't scare me because I can deal with her and have shut that shit down at every turn.

Who truly scare me are my in-laws.  They have been wealthy most of their lives due to a business that sustained any dream imaginable.  The problem is they sold the business 4 years ago and still act like they make millions of dollars a year.  Add in a dysfunctional half sibling of my wife and it's a disaster in the making.  The half sibling walked away from a 6-figure job 5 years ago that I personally got them because they claimed they didn't like being controlled by corporate puppets.  In the 5 years since they have not worked and have lived off the in-laws in lavish style. I'm talking 100% funded to the tune of all expense vacations multiple times a year, 3 different brand-new cars in 5 years, and enough money to fund several ongoing drug addictions.  I've explained to my wife when the money runs out, they will all live under a bridge because I refuse to support them in any way.  If the half sibling ever OD's on drugs I don't think I'll be able to keep from telling the MIL that she basically killed her only son and ruined his life by always making things easy on him and giving him the money to buy all the drugs.

My advice is you can't pick your family, so I don't feel obligated to support any of them.  I tell my kids that as a father it's my job to teach you life lessons and give you the tools to succeed in life.  That includes entering adulthood debt free with a college degree paid for by me or a trade certificate etc.  If you can't figure life out after that I refuse to support you in anyway outside of health or safety reasons.

[newco]

My mom has always been horrible with money.  Of course, if you listen to her, she has had bad luck her entire life.  The truth is she has come into substantial sums of money several times that could have set her up for a modest retirement, but every time the money was dust in the wind.  For years she has made comments that since I'm so rich and have a large house I should take care of her or give her a place to live.  I kindly remind her that we are a single-family income, and I can't take away from my children to take care of an adult who has had 74 years to figure it out.  This is coming from a person that just bought a brand-new car and will take monthly casino trips.  The truth is my mom doesn't scare me because I can deal with her and have shut that shit down at every turn.

Who truly scare me are my in-laws.  They have been wealthy most of their lives due to a business that sustained any dream imaginable.  The problem is they sold the business 4 years ago and still act like they make millions of dollars a year.  Add in a dysfunctional half sibling of my wife and it's a disaster in the making.  The half sibling walked away from a 6-figure job 5 years ago that I personally got them because they claimed they didn't like being controlled by corporate puppets.  In the 5 years since they have not worked and have lived off the in-laws in lavish style. I'm talking 100% funded to the tune of all expense vacations multiple times a year, 3 different brand-new cars in 5 years, and enough money to fund several ongoing drug addictions.  I've explained to my wife when the money runs out, they will all live under a bridge because I refuse to support them in any way.  If the half sibling ever OD's on drugs I don't think I'll be able to keep from telling the MIL that she basically killed her only son and ruined his life by always making things easy on him and giving him the money to buy all the drugs.

My advice is you can't pick your family, so I don't feel obligated to support any of them.  I tell my kids that as a father it's my job to teach you life lessons and give you the tools to succeed in life.  That includes entering adulthood debt free with a college degree paid for by me or a trade certificate etc.  If you can't figure life out after that I refuse to support you in anyway outside of health or safety reasons.

You sound like a joy to live with...

[GuitarStv]

I guess I'm pretty lucky in that both of my parents are OK for money.

My dad did a lot of accounting classes in university and has worked as an accountant several times and has always been good with money/investments.  Dad worked as a teacher for many years (so has a good chunk of a pension from that), and now runs a farm which posts a regular profit.  As far as I'm aware, he's quite financially secure.

My mom has never really understood money or financial systems (I've recently started doing her taxes because she just has a total mental block on this matter) . . . but grew up very poor and had the need to always save for hard times drummed into her as a child.  She has a decent pension provided from her lifetime of teaching, and has more money than she knows what to do with that has been socked away year after year into low interest guaranteed investment certificates.  Not very efficient from an investment perspective, but she is happy with how things are going.

I don't believe either parent expects me to carry them financially in their retirement, and haven't really planned for that.  If there's a role necessary as a caregiver, I like to think that I could fill it somewhat by managing to retire early.  I would have free time as needed, although I don't know how hard it would be to actually try living together again for an extended period of time.

[rocketpj]

I would draw the line on sharing a home with my parents, or my in-laws.  They are all wonderful people (mostly), but everyone would be miserable if we all lived in the same house.

I would and might build a granny suite or carriage home to house a relative, come the need.  I might do it anyway.  I have a friend whose father lived on his own and had a fall.  It took him 3 days to die while lying on the floor in pain.  He was living in a different hemisphere from her (he was in Buenos Aires, she was in Canada), but she is haunted by that, and I would not want that for my parents at all.  I'd happily have them close, but not in the kitchen every morning when I am trying to get my coffee. 

[jeninco]

I would draw the line on sharing a home with my parents, or my in-laws.  They are all wonderful people (mostly), but everyone would be miserable if we all lived in the same house.

I would and might build a granny suite or carriage home to house a relative, come the need.  I might do it anyway.  I have a friend whose father lived on his own and had a fall.  It took him 3 days to die while lying on the floor in pain.  He was living in a different hemisphere from her (he was in Buenos Aires, she was in Canada), but she is haunted by that, and I would not want that for my parents at all.  I'd happily have them close, but not in the kitchen every morning when I am trying to get my coffee.

That is actually a lovely way to phrase how close to someone else I feel: would I want to see them in the kitchen every morning while I'm trying to get my coffee

We are presently reconfiguring our (2000ish sf) house to have a slightly separated guest room (with a 3/4 bath) so I don't have to run into ANYONE in the middle of the night when I get up to pee, but I love this as a metric:
my mom -- fine for a few days, then I don't want to make conversation while I'm making coffee
MIL -- same as my mom
my aunt -- same
our kids -- actually, we'd probably last several weeks, since I really like them. And they know to leave me alone for the first half hour...

[Dicey]

A few weeks after DH and I wed in 2012, his father died. In the process, we realized his mom was not okay. She had dementia and they'd been propping each other up. DH and I each owned two-story houses with no downstairs bedroom. We sold both houses, bought a single story house. We also cleaned out and sold their second home, and cleaned out their primary home. It was way too small for us to live in, and it was for some reason deeded to DH's brother. (I know this because I found the paperwork in her freezer. We have no idea why.) She lived with us for almost eight years.

I suppose the difference was that she didn't actually ask or expect us to take her in, because she wasn't able to. She had resources, but we didn't know if she had enough to last her lifetime. By living with us, she never ran out of money, even as her care needs escalated. At the end, DH did receive a not-insignificant inheritance.

The hardest thing was that it made it difficult to travel to my parents as their years were waning. They also lived on their own until the last few months, when in-home caregiving was required. I hated that I couldn't just pop down (7.5 hours away) to see them. My siblings helped, and a friend of mine who was between jobs moved in with them until my mom died. After that, my dad didn't want to live in their house without mom, so he moved into my brother's house, four hours away. I spoke to him often by phone, but only got to visit in person once or twice during his last year.

I guess my point is that we did these things, but nobody demanded them of us. It was difficult at times, but we knew all along that it was our decision, and it was the right one.

I'd have a much harder time dealing with a parent who demanded we take care of them.

[Zamboni]

It would be best for all parties if your spouse made it clear sooner rather than later that his mother and her crew are NEVER moving in with you and should not expect ANY financial support in the future. This will help MIL and others plan alternatives.

Echoing this. That's what I did when my Mom told me she was going to run out of money. It was about 10 years before she passed away. RIP, Mom. Me telling her the blunt truth got her to behave a little differently with her money.

For example, a few months before that conversation happened she bought an 80's Camero that she saw along the side of the road with a "for sale" sign in the window (for $8K, can't make this stuff up). Who cares if a 70-something woman has a Camero? Not me, but where she lives there is a very long winter, and the car is pretty useless in that. After the conversation, she appeared to understand that she had to make her little nest egg of $60K last as long as possible, and she made no other large and impulsive purchases.

To her credit, when she died 10 years later she still had $30K in the bank and another $20K in cash, so I think she just completely stopped spending above her social security check when I put the hammer down on her "you will have to help me because I am going to run out of money" talk. Not everyone will do that, of course, as anyone who read my long and insane thread about my Dad (RIP) and Step Mom will recall.

[kite]

For the most part, my family’s expectation is that we help each other. My father began losing his eyesight and needed rides to work, to shop and to medical appointments. He also extracted a promise that we’d look after our mother when he was gone. Mom voiced no expectations. “The Lord will provide” was her mantra. To a large extent, that is how it worked out for her. But her faith wasn’t reckless. They lived frugally and saved a lot. Eventually she got dementia. There was plenty of help from my siblings and enough money from Mom’s savings to hire help. Plus she was a joy, making no demands.

Mom’s brother and my brother needed care in the same years that mom was declining with dementia. These men expected their sisters and nieces would take care of them. Each was broke. I got quite the education in what resources are available for poor seniors in my community. In my community, it’s actually pretty good.
But.
Most people need an advocate to navigate the systems available to them, particularly if they are sick or in a state of declining faculties and abilities. I think this is a role we should expect to do, even if we don’t/can’t/won’t provide money or hands-on care.

It’s been a few years since they died, but my Uncle & brother were the same in just expecting the females in the family to manage everything. Even if we pushed back and said “Your nephew isn’t working, why don’t you ask him?” They’d respond, “I don’t want to bother him” oblivious to how that sounds to the woman they do bother. Literally an expectation that we’d drop everything, take a day off of work to ferry them to medical appointments 2 hours away.

Since the question of bringing an aging parent into one’s home has been raised, I’ll share some thoughts I only realized after my mother passed away. She knew how to get from her bed to her toilet beyond the point where she could say she needed to use the bathroom. In familiar surroundings, there were no accidents. I was fully prepared to have her in my home, but we were able to keep her in her own home of 60 years.

Her siblings who were moved did not have the same progression of dementia that she did. They moved/were moved, and shortly after moving they were in diapers because they could not learn and retain where the bathroom was. They had accidents, UTI’s and then pneumonia. If anyone has a genuine expectation to move when they become dependent, they should be decluttering yesterday. If they expect to age in place, they should renovate to ensure accessibility, yesterday. Otherwise, it’s just a word salad that I wouldn’t take seriously.

[Dicey]

We chose our family home with MIL in mind. The door to her bathroom was directly across from her bedroom door. We had the dogs sleep her room. If anything was amiss, they made a fuss. After a little while of this, we discovered the dogs were taking turns escorting her into the bathroom. Cracked us up every time. At night, when MIL was ready to go to bed, she'd get up and  say, "Here, doggies" as she never could remember their names.

[Just Joe]

My MiL is squared away. She is located close to DW's siblings. She'll be okay where she is. DW expected to be MiL's future caretaker. DW's own future health is uncertain right now. It will have to be one of DW's siblings most likely. That's all in another city. FiL passed last year.

My parent #1 = rapid decline last year, this year in nursing care. 

My parent #2 - currently good, inventing road blocks any time the subject of downsizing or moving closer to sibling or I. As if they need to be living alone in a four bedroom house.

The more local they are to sibling or I, the easier we can assist. The easier we can assist, the longer they can remain independent.

DW and I own a rural property. Plenty of space for a cottage or carriage house. Parent insists that they wouldn't consider that if they couldn't build something modern and contemporary to sit next to our traditional farmhouse. WTH? If tall ceilings and skylight windows are important, that can be wrapped in an exterior that is more similar to our existing house.

Sibling is having some employment uncertainty due to the Trump WH EOs. Could lead to an inability to assist our parent as flexibly as we did last year. The employment status of their spouse is suddenly uncertain too. Thanks DJT.

My DW is also having some serious health issues of her own, might also limit my ability to assist my parent as easily as I did last year. 

I drove our EV 20K in the past year, in part, to help my parents sometimes at the drop of a hat in their city. Might not be able to do that going forward. Sibling can for the moment (WFH situation).

Our kids who aren't little kids anymore: they have the opportunity to attend university at our expense. We gave them both tired, high mileage cars that have served them well. One took care of their car and sold it to upgrade to another used car available within the family. The other offspring crashed both of their cars. Currently without. Had a family meeting reminding them that the future is uncertain, they need to get their own situations in order. There is little help besides tuition from us in the short term.   

[Villanelle]

My MiL is squared away. She is located close to DW's siblings. She'll be okay where she is. DW expected to be MiL's future caretaker. DW's own future health is uncertain right now. It will have to be one of DW's siblings most likely. That's all in another city. FiL passed last year.

My parent #1 = rapid decline last year, this year in nursing care. 

My parent #2 - currently good, inventing road blocks any time the subject of downsizing or moving closer to sibling or I. As if they need to be living alone in a four bedroom house.

The more local they are to sibling or I, the easier we can assist. The easier we can assist, the longer they can remain independent.

DW and I own a rural property. Plenty of space for a cottage or carriage house. Parent insists that they wouldn't consider that if they couldn't build something modern and contemporary to sit next to our traditional farmhouse. WTH? If tall ceilings and skylight windows are important, that can be wrapped in an exterior that is more similar to our existing house.

Sibling is having some employment uncertainty due to the Trump WH EOs. Could lead to an inability to assist our parent as flexibly as we did last year. The employment status of their spouse is suddenly uncertain too. Thanks DJT.

My DW is also having some serious health issues of her own, might also limit my ability to assist my parent as easily as I did last year. 

I drove our EV 20K in the past year, in part, to help my parents sometimes at the drop of a hat in their city. Might not be able to do that going forward. Sibling can for the moment (WFH situation).

Our kids who aren't little kids anymore: they have the opportunity to attend university at our expense. We gave them both tired, high mileage cars that have served them well. One took care of their car and sold it to upgrade to another used car available within the family. The other offspring crashed both of their cars. Currently without. Had a family meeting reminding them that the future is uncertain, they need to get their own situations in order. There is little help besides tuition from us in the short term.

This sounds to me like someone who clearly doesn't want help.  Fine, if you can't live the skylight-bereft existence I'm offering, then you are welcome to figure out something out.  This is my offer; take it or leave it.

To me, this is the same disease--but an even more severe version--as parent who cry poverty and ask for money, but refuse to let the money-giver do a deep dive into their finances.  If you aren't willing to accept our terms, then you are making it clear that you don't actually need help as badly as ou say you do. 

[bacchi]

The morning-coffee test is excellent!

I'd put my mom up in a guest house but my dad is too curmudgeonly to live with or near.

I can only take so much of MIL but step-FIL is a delight. He'd be fine in a guest house or nearby.

FIL and step-MIL keep to themselves but I still wouldn't want to live with or near either.

Financially:

Dad is fine and spends less than his income.

MIL is probably fine. I introduced them to the 4% rule and, though they spend a lot, they insist it's all good. Fingers crossed.

FIL is probably not ok. They pretended to be rich and hung out with the (truly) rich while their house was deteriorating. Thankfully, there's another sibling who will help because we (me and SO) are leaning towards "you made your bed."

[Just Joe]

To me, this is the same disease--but an even more severe version--as parent who cry poverty and ask for money, but refuse to let the money-giver do a deep dive into their finances.  If you aren't willing to accept our terms, then you are making it clear that you don't actually need help as badly as ou say you do.

You're spot on...

I expect some health event will shape their choices when they could enjoy the right now close to us, and they could eat with us at least a few times per week.

Someone I know is experiencing this with their own parents. Elderly parents are several years overdue to seek assisted living or moving in with their adult offspring. Nope, now having a series of ER visits as their health deteriorates. They too have the big house chock full of things but live in but 2-3 rooms.

I think at that stage of my life I want a single floor zero maintenance condo with a garage until I can't live alone.

[okits]

Someone I know is experiencing this with their own parents. Elderly parents are several years overdue to seek assisted living or moving in with their adult offspring. Nope, now having a series of ER visits as their health deteriorates. They too have the big house chock full of things but live in but 2-3 rooms.

Oh this gave me flashbacks.

Sometimes that stubborn independence costs months or years of your parent's life because it's unsafe or isolating for them to keep living in their big house, alone.  Beyond having very honest talks about it and offering help for them to move, I'm not sure what more can be done if they are legally competent to choose for themselves.  Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.

[Much Fishing to Do]

When I had a few great business years and shot past my FIRE number, I started putting about $150k in each of my 3 kids 529s (which I'll transfer into their names with any remaining balance as each turn 25), and promised them a new car upon college graduation.  They've all been told that's what they can expect from me, as it will help them start life with no debt payments, and are encouraged to get as good a deal as they can with college so there is some pot of money left over as well.

It will be interesting to see what happens with any living here after school.  I can tell my wife would love it, so if any of them string it out that'll be my biggest problem I'm sure ;-)
 

[ender]

It’s been a few years since they died, but my Uncle & brother were the same in just expecting the females in the family to manage everything. Even if we pushed back and said “Your nephew isn’t working, why don’t you ask him?” They’d respond, “I don’t want to bother him” oblivious to how that sounds to the woman they do bother. Literally an expectation that we’d drop everything, take a day off of work to ferry them to medical appointments 2 hours away.

I'm starting to see this gender dynamic play out in extended family too.

I suspect we're going to feel a lot of pressure here since I work remotely, too, so even though we are the ones with a bunch of little kids we'll get pressure to take care of folks. I've seen this play out with the inlaws already when MiL had some health issues and so they couldn't travel. It was wild to see the expectations on DW. "Oh even though you just had a baby you should just come live by us 6 hours away to take care of us while we deal with health issues. Not a big deal to uproot your life right?"

[rocketpj]

Gender expectations are strange in many ways.

We had an elderly couple living next door to us that were really not happy.  They shared a culture (greek) with my wife, so she and the elderly woman got along very well, and she was quite kind to our littles.  Then everything blew up - elderly man (who was a miserable old fucker) was abusive to his wife one last time and she left him after 58 years.

My wife was very supportive of her (of course) and she lived in our house for a few days while she found accommodation.  At the time I was working full time while also trying to start a business.  The business work was at home, on my kitchen table at the computer.  She spent days moping around the house and sighing, sometimes sitting across the table from me.

Of course I was 100% on board with supporting her in her escape.  But it was very distracting.  At one point I suggested she call her (local, wealthy) son to see if he would be able to help her and she said 'I don't want to bother him'.  Which was pretty funny in the context of her sitting at what was basically my desk while I was trying to work.

In retrospect I think the son was 'taking sides' in the split.  Thankfully it's all years in the past and ended fairly well.