Author Topic: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)  (Read 5063241 times)

Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9200 on: May 26, 2022, 07:49:25 AM »
The tedium of explaining that I don't do FaceTime unless I'm on WiFi

Fortunately I've never had to explain that to people but I can imagine... "what you ONLY have 3G of data???"

DH and I had a shared 5GB data plan for years. What shocked the heck out of me was that when we added our son to the plan it was the same price to have 3 people on unlimited that it was for 2 lines on that tiny shared plan. So now we have unlimited plans and I may never want my kids to get their own plansÖ

Why do you think I'm still on the family plan? Because I can't get comparable service for cheaper. So I send money to my sister every month for my share as she's the one who manages it.

I do the same with my parents.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5342
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9201 on: May 26, 2022, 11:15:12 AM »
The tedium of explaining that I don't do FaceTime unless I'm on WiFi

People who want to video chat off of wifi baffle me. Okay, Thomas Paine, let's see how much AT&T agrees that you're using common sense.

mspym

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9640
  • Location: Aotearoa
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9202 on: May 26, 2022, 08:07:39 PM »
The amount of hoops we are having to jump through to prove we are not money launderers because we are buying a house with cash instead of a mortgage*. Amazing.

*not the US, your calculations do not apply in this situation

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4538
  • Age: 51
  • Location: SoCal
    • Our Sea Story
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9203 on: May 26, 2022, 09:01:13 PM »
The amount of hoops we are having to jump through to prove we are not money launderers because we are buying a house with cash instead of a mortgage*. Amazing.

*not the US, your calculations do not apply in this situation

Oh, you totally have to show your work for cash in the US, as well. I had a friend who literally kept cash under the mattress and had to delay purchase to let it season in an account. Because evidently actual crooks don't know to let the money sit in an account for awhile before they do their legit stuff.

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7356
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9204 on: May 27, 2022, 06:39:46 AM »
The amount of hoops we are having to jump through to prove we are not money launderers because we are buying a house with cash instead of a mortgage*. Amazing.

*not the US, your calculations do not apply in this situation

Is it easier to get a mortgage then pay it off within a year?

solon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2343
  • Age: 1823
  • Location: OH
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9205 on: May 27, 2022, 01:49:25 PM »
Finally getting your company to put in a 401k and then being the only person excited about launch day.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9206 on: May 28, 2022, 12:57:32 AM »
The tedium of explaining that I don't do FaceTime unless I'm on WiFi

People who want to video chat off of wifi baffle me. Okay, Thomas Paine, let's see how much AT&T agrees that you're using common sense.

I don't really think having (almost) no data and using public wifi instead is very mustachian actually.

There are security risks associated with using public wifi networks. Data is cheap these days, there are good deals to be found, and the more data you get in your plan the cheaper it gets. Using public wifi instead of data isn't frugal (value for money) but cheap (no value for money).

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22126
  • Age: 65
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9207 on: May 28, 2022, 02:34:17 AM »
The amount of hoops we are having to jump through to prove we are not money launderers because we are buying a house with cash instead of a mortgage*. Amazing.

*not the US, your calculations do not apply in this situation
US resident here. We recently paid cash for a property. We discovered our bank will only let us wire transfer $100k per day without fees. DH doggedly moved that much into escrow every day until the full amount was transferred. Thank goodness he learned this before the last minute. Crazy.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3647
  • Location: Germany
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9208 on: May 28, 2022, 09:17:54 AM »
I think 100K is actually much.
The normal limit at my bank is 1K per day, and you can up that. Get a SMS to up it to then get another SMS to actually send it...

And I think because of money lendering, above 50K takes extra time because it's manually checked.

Loren Ver

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Handlebar Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 1216
  • Location: Midwest USA
  • I Retired. Yah!
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9209 on: May 28, 2022, 09:20:32 AM »
The tedium of explaining that I don't do FaceTime unless I'm on WiFi

People who want to video chat off of wifi baffle me. Okay, Thomas Paine, let's see how much AT&T agrees that you're using common sense.

I don't really think having (almost) no data and using public wifi instead is very mustachian actually.

There are security risks associated with using public wifi networks. Data is cheap these days, there are good deals to be found, and the more data you get in your plan the cheaper it gets. Using public wifi instead of data isn't frugal (value for money) but cheap (no value for money).

I have 1GB of data per month and use about half that.  I do things via wifi, but I only do them when I am home.  Things can wait.  DH has zero data, he still has a flip phone.  For him, everything waits until he gets back to his desk top, and the wifi at home. 

Loren

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22126
  • Age: 65
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9210 on: May 28, 2022, 09:28:30 AM »
The amount of hoops we are having to jump through to prove we are not money launderers because we are buying a house with cash instead of a mortgage*. Amazing.

*not the US, your calculations do not apply in this situation
US resident here. We recently paid cash for a property. We discovered our bank will only let us wire transfer $100k per day without fees. DH doggedly moved that much into escrow every day until the full amount was transferred. Thank goodness he learned this before the last minute. Crazy.
Clarification: DH says it wasn't about fees; it was a hard limit set by the bank. FFS, it's our own, fully seasoned money!

I think 100K is actually much.
The normal limit at my bank is 1K per day, and you can up that. Get a SMS to up it to then get another SMS to actually send it...

And I think because of money lendering, above 50K takes extra time because it's manually checked.
When you're buying CA real estate, $100k is nothing. Are you referring to daily electronic banking limits or withdrawals of your own funds? How would you pay cash for anything that's expensive?

mspym

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9640
  • Location: Aotearoa
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9211 on: May 28, 2022, 02:01:24 PM »
Since I now have proof of funds sourcing in my email, I will be going into the bank to get my limit raised so that I can send through the settlement payment to the lawyers.

PMG

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1581
  • Location: USA
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9212 on: May 28, 2022, 02:20:55 PM »
We bought a late model used car in 2019. We intended to drop the full coverage insurance after a few years of depreciationÖ but the same make and model with more miles than ours is now selling for more than we paid, the insurance cost difference isnít a whole lot, so I guess weíre keeping full insurance for a while. 

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3647
  • Location: Germany
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9213 on: May 29, 2022, 01:41:59 AM »

I think 100K is actually much.
The normal limit at my bank is 1K per day, and you can up that. Get a SMS to up it to then get another SMS to actually send it...

And I think because of money lendering, above 50K takes extra time because it's manually checked.
When you're buying CA real estate, $100k is nothing. Are you referring to daily electronic banking limits or withdrawals of your own funds? How would you pay cash for anything that's expensive?
Yes, daily limits. Which of course is also withdrawals.
What do you mean with cash? Bank notes? Nobody does this. Could be robbed. (IF you wanted to you have to call a few days early so that the bank could organize the money).
And electronic - see the money laundering.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9912
  • Registered member
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9214 on: May 29, 2022, 01:56:37 AM »

I think 100K is actually much.
The normal limit at my bank is 1K per day, and you can up that. Get a SMS to up it to then get another SMS to actually send it...

And I think because of money lendering, above 50K takes extra time because it's manually checked.
When you're buying CA real estate, $100k is nothing. Are you referring to daily electronic banking limits or withdrawals of your own funds? How would you pay cash for anything that's expensive?
Yes, daily limits. Which of course is also withdrawals.
What do you mean with cash? Bank notes? Nobody does this. Could be robbed. (IF you wanted to you have to call a few days early so that the bank could organize the money).
And electronic - see the money laundering.

They mean no loan.  Pretty much every real estate transaction is paid with money*, but people call it "cash" when it's all coming from your cash account and not from a lender. 

*exceptions include seller financing, trading a movie role for a house, etc.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 01:58:28 AM by dragoncar »

mspym

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9640
  • Location: Aotearoa
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9215 on: May 29, 2022, 03:37:14 AM »
Yeah Sydney real estate prices mean even if you are using a mortgage there is still 200-400k you need for the deposit.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20605
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9216 on: May 29, 2022, 07:55:31 AM »
But for the down payment can't you just do a bank transfer?  I know for houses I bought we did that.  It was "cash" in that it came out of a bank account as opposed to a mortgage loan, but it was never actually cash in hand.

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22126
  • Age: 65
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9217 on: May 29, 2022, 08:37:17 AM »
But for the down payment can't you just do a bank transfer?  I know for houses I bought we did that.  It was "cash" in that it came out of a bank account as opposed to a mortgage loan, but it was never actually cash in hand.
Yes. The bank would only let us wire transfer $100k per day, which required five business days to move enough money to the escrow account so that we could pay "cash" at closing. In real life, my husband and I rarely have more than $100 dollars in actual cash between us.

jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2690
  • Age: 247
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9218 on: May 29, 2022, 08:37:35 AM »
The amount of hoops we are having to jump through to prove we are not money launderers because we are buying a house with cash instead of a mortgage*. Amazing.

*not the US, your calculations do not apply in this situation
US resident here. We recently paid cash for a property. We discovered our bank will only let us wire transfer $100k per day without fees. DH doggedly moved that much into escrow every day until the full amount was transferred. Thank goodness he learned this before the last minute. Crazy.
US resident here. We recently paid cash for a property. When I attempted to set up a wire to the destination account, received a similar message (I think it was $75k). I freaked out as this was the day before closing. Called up Vanguard, who said it was a safety measure; the agent set up the full wire transfer without fees. Had to give a justification statement: "For cash purchase of residential property."
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 08:39:49 AM by jinga nation »

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7356
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9219 on: May 29, 2022, 08:38:56 AM »
But for the down payment can't you just do a bank transfer?  I know for houses I bought we did that.  It was "cash" in that it came out of a bank account as opposed to a mortgage loan, but it was never actually cash in hand.

You're making an incorrect assumption: that the US banking system is modern and logical. It's not. I had trouble transferring the money from my parent's checking account to their online bank savings account last year (yes, I did the transfers for them, mom's got learned helplessness on some things). I was able to do all the transfers same day, but hard limit of $100k per transfer. The online bank was fine to do the wire transfer when they bought the new house, though there was some delay because they do manual checks on big wires.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20605
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9220 on: May 29, 2022, 11:40:20 AM »
But for the down payment can't you just do a bank transfer?  I know for houses I bought we did that.  It was "cash" in that it came out of a bank account as opposed to a mortgage loan, but it was never actually cash in hand.

You're making an incorrect assumption: that the US banking system is modern and logical. It's not.

Sorry.

I know it is a big country and it has a lot more banks than we have, but I just have trouble wrapping my mind around the apparent fact that Canada's big banks, plus Caisse Populaires and such not, can do better than US banks.

I know in the past I have had trouble using my Canadian Mastercard or Visa at gas station pumps in the Northeastern US.   The cashier usually had a work-around because these were places that had a lot of Canadian traffic.  But it was odd.

When Ex and I sold a property the notary (Quebec so not a lawyer for land transactions) just arranged bank transfers.  Purchasers transferred him the money.  We each gave him a void cheque, he asked how the split was to go, and it happened. Would that not happen in the US either?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 11:43:39 AM by RetiredAt63 »

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7356
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9221 on: May 29, 2022, 10:03:57 PM »
But for the down payment can't you just do a bank transfer?  I know for houses I bought we did that.  It was "cash" in that it came out of a bank account as opposed to a mortgage loan, but it was never actually cash in hand.

You're making an incorrect assumption: that the US banking system is modern and logical. It's not.

Sorry.

I know it is a big country and it has a lot more banks than we have, but I just have trouble wrapping my mind around the apparent fact that Canada's big banks, plus Caisse Populaires and such not, can do better than US banks.

I know in the past I have had trouble using my Canadian Mastercard or Visa at gas station pumps in the Northeastern US.   The cashier usually had a work-around because these were places that had a lot of Canadian traffic.  But it was odd.

When Ex and I sold a property the notary (Quebec so not a lawyer for land transactions) just arranged bank transfers.  Purchasers transferred him the money.  We each gave him a void cheque, he asked how the split was to go, and it happened. Would that not happen in the US either?

Yeah, its just another example of the US thinks its great and in reality, it kinda sucks.

Quote
When Ex and I sold a property the notary (Quebec so not a lawyer for land transactions) just arranged bank transfers.  Purchasers transferred him the money.  We each gave him a void cheque, he asked how the split was to go, and it happened. Would that not happen in the US either?

Its possible that something similar could happen, but it would have to be two private individuals, no 3rd party involved. Going to be quite uncommon. Buying a house, even buying in cash, you're likely going through a title company as middleman, so the buyer would transfer the funds to escrow, the escrow would then confirm receipt of funds/transfer funds to buyer. Businesses would likely have a middleman as well, just a different kind.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8925
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9222 on: May 29, 2022, 10:17:44 PM »
First of all, the rules in the US vary by state.   But generally there is an attorney and/or a title company involved.  In some states an attorney is not required.   

A title company is involved because someone is buying title insurance to protect them in case they don't end up with a valid title to the property.   

I suspect it's possible if no one wants title insurance and no 3rd party mortgage provider is involved (because they have rules they will insist be followed), that in a state where an attorney is not required, the relevant parties could go to the registrar of deeds and get the job done.   Probably with a lot of bother and confusion on the part of the registrar staff since it would be extremely rare!

But honestly, title insurance is so very dirt cheap compared to the potential loss it's foolish not to purchase it, so I wouldn't recommend doing this even if you could.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9223 on: May 30, 2022, 03:34:35 AM »
First of all, the rules in the US vary by state.   But generally there is an attorney and/or a title company involved.  In some states an attorney is not required.   

A title company is involved because someone is buying title insurance to protect them in case they don't end up with a valid title to the property.   

I suspect it's possible if no one wants title insurance and no 3rd party mortgage provider is involved (because they have rules they will insist be followed), that in a state where an attorney is not required, the relevant parties could go to the registrar of deeds and get the job done.   Probably with a lot of bother and confusion on the part of the registrar staff since it would be extremely rare!

But honestly, title insurance is so very dirt cheap compared to the potential loss it's foolish not to purchase it, so I wouldn't recommend doing this even if you could.

This is very fascinating to read, for someone with a law degree from a totally different country. I struggle to comprehend how a title could be invalid? Title insurance is not a thing that exists here. It can't be registered if it's not valid and when it's registered, it's valid by definition.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20605
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9224 on: May 30, 2022, 05:22:23 AM »
Here most purchases go through a third party, a lawyer in Ontario, a notary in Quebec (each province is in charge of civil law, which is why Ontario and Quebec can do things differently; the federal government is in charge of criminal law).  Money is deposited to the lawyer/notary, and money owing to third parties (i.e. a hot water tank rental, taxes) gets calculated and paid.  Then the lawyer/notary pays the sellers the rest.  But these days it is all on-line banking, no cash, no cheques, no money orders.

What I really liked when I sold the last house was on-line signing - I authorized a signature and initials, and online approved the offer to purchase and counter offer and everything.  I sat at my computer with my real-estate agent on the phone and we went through everything.  This is really useful in rural areas, my agent lived a fair distance from me. 

bill1827

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9225 on: May 30, 2022, 06:12:03 AM »
First of all, the rules in the US vary by state.   But generally there is an attorney and/or a title company involved.  In some states an attorney is not required.   

A title company is involved because someone is buying title insurance to protect them in case they don't end up with a valid title to the property.   

I suspect it's possible if no one wants title insurance and no 3rd party mortgage provider is involved (because they have rules they will insist be followed), that in a state where an attorney is not required, the relevant parties could go to the registrar of deeds and get the job done.   Probably with a lot of bother and confusion on the part of the registrar staff since it would be extremely rare!

But honestly, title insurance is so very dirt cheap compared to the potential loss it's foolish not to purchase it, so I wouldn't recommend doing this even if you could.

This is very fascinating to read, for someone with a law degree from a totally different country. I struggle to comprehend how a title could be invalid? Title insurance is not a thing that exists here. It can't be registered if it's not valid and when it's registered, it's valid by definition.

In the UK, before the advent of the Land Registry, property was transferred via documents called conveyances. These would have a description of the property, the names of the vendor and purchaser and details of any restrictions or covenants. There could be a sequence of conveyances going back hundreds of years for some properties. It was the job of the conveyancer to go through all these documents to ensure that they were correct, consistent and showed continuous ownership. A break in the chain of ownership could give rise to a faulty title.

The Land Registry was started in the mid 19th century to provide a central record of property ownership. Now the state guarantees the ownership of a particular property, theoretically giving protection to purchasers. However, compulsory registration only came into force in 1990 and then only on transfer. My parents house wasn't registered when it was sold in 2012.

Catbert

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3252
  • Location: Southern California
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9226 on: May 30, 2022, 10:28:15 AM »
First of all, the rules in the US vary by state.   But generally there is an attorney and/or a title company involved.  In some states an attorney is not required.   

A title company is involved because someone is buying title insurance to protect them in case they don't end up with a valid title to the property.   

I suspect it's possible if no one wants title insurance and no 3rd party mortgage provider is involved (because they have rules they will insist be followed), that in a state where an attorney is not required, the relevant parties could go to the registrar of deeds and get the job done.   Probably with a lot of bother and confusion on the part of the registrar staff since it would be extremely rare!

But honestly, title insurance is so very dirt cheap compared to the potential loss it's foolish not to purchase it, so I wouldn't recommend doing this even if you could.

This is very fascinating to read, for someone with a law degree from a totally different country. I struggle to comprehend how a title could be invalid? Title insurance is not a thing that exists here. It can't be registered if it's not valid and when it's registered, it's valid by definition.

I'll give you an example of the only time I've known anyone who actually had to use title insurance.  My sister bought a house 2010.  It had been a foreclosure and then someone bought and flipped it.  My sister bought from the flippers.  The previous owners (who lost it to foreclosure and then died) had borrowed money against the house shortly before foreclosure with some crazy 10K loan.  20% interest and if it wasn't paid on time the interest rate or penalties jumped tremendously.  The loan, of course, was wiped out by the foreclosure regardless of...anything.  But the person who held the loan (also crazy) popped up 5 years later waving the loan papers and demanding 200K or something from my sister.  My sister called the title insurance co.  They have attorneys on staff who are experts in this and my sister had to do nothing else.  The crazy plaintiff was eventually barred by the court from refiling after she tried at least twice.  Without title insurance my sister would have still eventually won but would have been on the hook for finding and paying an attorney.

Sandi_k

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1498
  • Location: California
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9227 on: May 30, 2022, 10:58:40 AM »

This is very fascinating to read, for someone with a law degree from a totally different country. I struggle to comprehend how a title could be invalid? Title insurance is not a thing that exists here. It can't be registered if it's not valid and when it's registered, it's valid by definition.

I worked in title many years ago, in CA. As a result, I have purchased title insurance for both of our purchased homes. ;) For the current home, I am *really* glad we did.

We purchased the home from a couple who had owned it outright, AND who had gotten divorced. The ex-wife had a lien on the property, which was apparently owned by the husband. When we purchased the place, both spouses had to sign sale documents.

Several years later, when we went to refi - the lender could not find the sale document signed by the wife. Since CA is a community property state, to have a clear title, the chain of ownership had to show both spouses as relinquishing their ownership rights to us.

I pulled out our title policy, forwarded the email to the company that we'd purchased it from, and asked them to certify the conveyance from the wife. It had been long enough that they had to go pull the physical file from deep storage, and it wasn't accidentally there, either (instead of on file with the county recorder).

The remedy was to go to the ex-wife again, and have her sign a new conveyance deed - probably a quitclaim deed - which she did complete.

If we had NOT had title insurance, and she had refused to sign the new quitclaim deed, she could have theoretically sued us for the face value of her lien - $300k.

So yes - always get title insurance. Especially if there are divorced spouses in the chain.

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7356
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9228 on: May 30, 2022, 12:43:26 PM »
@Imma how does it work in your country? How would situations like have been described be handled there, or how would they not occur to start with?

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9229 on: May 30, 2022, 01:35:46 PM »
That all sounds really complicated!

We have a Land Registry and have had that for literal centuries. And we don't only have it, registering purchases and mortgages and the like have always been mandatory, too. Those are public records, and if it's not registered it's not valid. The Land Registry is one of the oldest historical records we have, their very detailed registers go back centuries, and all properties in the country are in it. Somehow I had assumed all countries would have Land Registries. It seems very impractical not to have detailed, complete records of ownership of properties.

So anyone can look up my address and see that my house is owned by Mr. Imma and me and that there's a mortgage on the property and that the original amount of X was owed to ABC Bank. If we re-fi that would be on record, when we pay it off it would be registered too. That's one thing that sometimes goes wrong - some people forget to register that they've paid off the mortgage. In that case they can't sell until they've dug up the records to have the mortgage removed. You can't sell without permission of the mortgage holder.

If our home should end up being foreclosed, we wouldn't be able to quickly get another mortgage against the property before a sale, since not just us, the owner, would have to give permission for the registration of a new mortgage, the original mortgage holder would have to give permission, too. That's the whole reason why a lender would prefer a mortgage over a regular loan - so they get some control over what happens to the property.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8925
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9230 on: May 30, 2022, 02:12:50 PM »
In the US we have Registrars of Deeds in which official transactions that change the ownership of the property (or assign rights to a lienholder) are officially recorded.

In principle, it's correct and complete.

Now, let's look at the gap between "theory" and "practice".

Property was owned by someone.   I forget the name, let's call him John Doe. 

John Doe sells the property in his name.  Shows up, shows legal and valid identity documents showing he is John Doe.   As a bonus, the identity documents even show his address as the property being sold.

Problem is, the person selling the property is the nephew of the property owner, who lives with the property owner.  He isn't the actual property owner.

In this case, the buyer got cold feet because something about the person and how they wanted to do the sale gave them cold feet.   Had they not paid attention to their gut feeling, they would have purchased the property, the documents would have been recorded in the land registry, the nephew would have snorted up the monies from the sale, and the real owner of the property would have contested the sale as a fraudulent transaction.   The real owner would end up still owning their property and the buyer would have lost their money.


Another case would be an executor of an estate passes on ownership to someone and it later turns out that a different relative had a better claim to the property than the one it was given to.    The case goes to court and there's a new owner.

This same kind of thing can still happen anywhere.    So I'm surprised there's no title insurance to cover it, unless the government is making the loss good.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9231 on: May 30, 2022, 03:59:02 PM »
@SwordGuy I suppose that thing with the two John Does is something that could theoretically happen here but the probability is extremely low. How likely is it that there are two people called John Robert Peter Doe, with the exact same birth place and date at all, and that one would want to commit fraud against the other?  In families, it wouldn't be unusual to have the same full name or birth place, but all those same details?? I haven't heard of a case like that. If it happened, it would be the responsability of the notary that registered the sale. They would have insurance to protect themselves I'm sure. It would also be their responsability to make sure an estate was settled properly before transferring a property, too. To make inheritances easier, we also have a national register for wills and if a will isn't registered in it, it's not valid either.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8925
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9232 on: May 30, 2022, 07:27:16 PM »
They didn't have the same birthplace and date.  Just the same name and address.  And the same address wasn't needed, it's routine for people to move out before they sell a house.

In the US at least, birthdate and place of birth aren't checked.   Given the prevalence of false IDs in this country, using one to produce false IDs to sell a house is no harder than using one to get a job at a meat packing plant or lawn service.

As for the wills, I'm sure that the state has a provision for "who has priority to inherit" if there is no will.   It's perfectly possible for an estranged family member who lives overseas to have children that the rest of the family (and the government in question) know nothing about when the estate is "settled".   If the child with a higher inheritance priority later shows up, do they get the property or are they cheated out of it because the family in country didn't know about them?  (Or cheated out of it because the family in country did know about them but also knew the government didn't know?)


Show me a system and I'll show you a way to cause that system to fail to get the correct results. 

These things aren't common.  That's not the point.

They can happen.

And when they do, what happens to the person who now thinks they own the property?   In the inheritance case just above, what happens if the inheriting family member sells it to someone else and spends all the money on hookers and blow?   Someone is going to be cheated out of the value of that home.  If it's the buyer, that's what the title insurance is for.

In the US, it's a trivial amount of money to protect a very sizeable asset.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 08:36:49 PM by SwordGuy »

fuzzy math

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1722
  • Age: 42
  • Location: PNW
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9233 on: May 31, 2022, 08:24:05 AM »
May has been the longest month of my life and I'm ready for my end of the month retirement contributions to hit so I can update my "race to" amounts and move on

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7356
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9234 on: May 31, 2022, 08:32:25 AM »
I'm an auditor - which means I'm very used to seeing how a process could fail. Imma, there must be controls in place that you're not aware of or didn't mention if you are aware of them. Because what you describe isn't all that dissimilar from how it works in the US, at least the states I know the process. Which means that there's risk of fraud or error.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8925
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9235 on: May 31, 2022, 11:43:08 AM »
@Imma, do I remember correctly that you're in Sweden?   

I've just seen some news reports from 2016-2017 that Sweden was testing a blockchain solution for land registry.  They note that it could reduce fraud.    One can't reduce fraud if there is already zero fraud.

The question still remains, when a buyer purchases land and it turns out later that the sale wasn't valid, how are they compensated for their loss when the fraudulent (or mistaken) seller can't be made to pay?

lemanfan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1265
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9236 on: May 31, 2022, 12:05:57 PM »
@Imma, do I remember correctly that you're in Sweden?   

I've just seen some news reports from 2016-2017 that Sweden was testing a blockchain solution for land registry.  They note that it could reduce fraud.    One can't reduce fraud if there is already zero fraud.

The question still remains, when a buyer purchases land and it turns out later that the sale wasn't valid, how are they compensated for their loss when the fraudulent (or mistaken) seller can't be made to pay?

If I remember right, Imma is in another European country.  In Sweden, I think its very uncommon with the kind of scenarios you paint up - and if it happens there will be a court case where someone will lose. The insurances that people take in real estate deals are more geared towards problems with the actual buildings on the land, not the deed itself.  And most people have insurances that will help with legal fees.  But ... no deed insurance here.

As for Swedish fraud cases mentioned, they are to the best of my knowledge more concerned with the fact that the government agency that handles the deed registry don't do a very good job of checking the paperwork upon registering a new owner of a property.  This "hijacking" is usually done on an existing property without connection to a real change of ownership and it is done by sending in a fraudulent form to the government agency.  About five attempts per year are made according to the sources I found (linked below). The solution does not need a blockchain, just that the responsible government agency starts checking the paperwork it receives.

The critical text from the government agency says roughly translated:

"If a hijacking against all odds should be completed, the real owner will get the deed back by appealing the change decision or buy suing in court. In addition, the state has taken on a comprehensive responsibility to pay damages to a property owner who gets their property hijacked".

No sources in English from me, unfortunately:

https://www.lantmateriet.se/sv/Fastigheter/Min-fastighet/Lagfartskapning/
https://www.villaagarna.se/radgivning-och-tips/juridik/artiklar/hart-arbete-for-att-stoppa-lagfartskapning/


The same kind of hijacking attempts are also made against companies in Sweden, not just properties, by trying to register new board members who then can hijack the bank accounts.  Same problem exists (bad controls) and same solution needed (better controls).   This is however a different agency that handles.


« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 12:12:23 PM by lemanfan »

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9912
  • Registered member
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9237 on: May 31, 2022, 12:46:24 PM »
 Personally Iíve never had any problem wiring over $100k, completely depends on your bank and their risk tolerance

Ally did ask me to resign and fax the authorization because my formal signature looks nothing like the scribble I put on checks.  They said make it match my checks




This is very fascinating to read, for someone with a law degree from a totally different country. I struggle to comprehend how a title could be invalid? Title insurance is not a thing that exists here. It can't be registered if it's not valid and when it's registered, it's valid by definition.

Easy, Iíll sell you the buckingham palace for $1000.  Interested? Send money now.

Seriously though, there has never been any error whatsoever in your countryís property registry?  Itís been 100% correct forever?




lemanfan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1265
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9238 on: May 31, 2022, 01:16:36 PM »
Seriously though, there has never been any error whatsoever in your countryís property registry?  Itís been 100% correct forever?

This is getting more and more off topic from the MPP theme, but I feel that in Europe it's usually the individuals arguing with the state about what is right, while in the USA it's more often resolved by arguing in court directly between the individuals.

Probably a historical remains from the times when the European countries were kingdoms where the king (or his appointees) decided what was right.  You Americans are more used to a process between citizens without the king involved.  :)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 01:19:30 PM by lemanfan »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22942
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9239 on: May 31, 2022, 01:21:07 PM »
Don't listen to dragoncar, he's a snake oil salesman.  I'll sell you an NFT of Buckingham palace for 1000$.  Don't you want to buy a piece of the future?

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9912
  • Registered member
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9240 on: May 31, 2022, 01:24:15 PM »


In the UK, before the advent of the Land Registry, property was transferred via documents called conveyances. These would have a description of the property, the names of the vendor and purchaser and details of any restrictions or covenants. There could be a sequence of conveyances going back hundreds of years for some properties. It was the job of the conveyancer to go through all these documents to ensure that they were correct, consistent and showed continuous ownership. A break in the chain of ownership could give rise to a faulty title.

The Land Registry was started in the mid 19th century to provide a central record of property ownership. Now the state guarantees the ownership of a particular property, theoretically giving protection to purchasers. However, compulsory registration only came into force in 1990 and then only on transfer. My parents house wasn't registered when it was sold in 2012.

This sounds great but if the government is guaranteeing title itís essentially state sponsored title insurance. 

Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9241 on: May 31, 2022, 01:32:35 PM »
Tomorrow is spreadsheet day and the TSP website is down for maintenance.  I can't update my spreadsheet accurately.  What am I going to do?!?

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9912
  • Registered member
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9242 on: May 31, 2022, 01:34:10 PM »
Tomorrow is spreadsheet day and the TSP website is down for maintenance.  I can't update my spreadsheet accurately.  What am I going to do?!?

Just use last years number to be safe

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9243 on: May 31, 2022, 03:16:27 PM »
Personally Iíve never had any problem wiring over $100k, completely depends on your bank and their risk tolerance

Ally did ask me to resign and fax the authorization because my formal signature looks nothing like the scribble I put on checks.  They said make it match my checks




This is very fascinating to read, for someone with a law degree from a totally different country. I struggle to comprehend how a title could be invalid? Title insurance is not a thing that exists here. It can't be registered if it's not valid and when it's registered, it's valid by definition.

Easy, Iíll sell you the buckingham palace for $1000.  Interested? Send money now.

Seriously though, there has never been any error whatsoever in your countryís property registry?  Itís been 100% correct forever?

Sure, there are errors, although they are very rare. But those mistakes would not be the responsability of the individual citizens. The notary is the professional who made the error, so they are liable and they would carry professional liability insurance to protect them.

I'd love to buy that property from you! I'll transfer you the money once the registrar has confirmed you are the legitimate owner of Buckingham Palace and have presented a valid passport in the name of HM the Queen. If it turns out your passport is fake, the notary who registrated the sale would be liable for my damages. It wouldn't be the responsability of the real Queen to get my name removed from the record. A notary would definitely have more knowledge about spotting a fake passport than the average HR manager and I think they can likely also check the government records to see if the passport number matches.


I'm not in Sweden, but in the Netherlands. We aren't planning on using blockchain and hijacking property is not a thing that I've heard about happening. In our ownership records we use the full name, place and date of birth and passport number. It would be extremely hard to fake that. The most "popular" fraud is simply pressuring vulnerable people to sell their property for a low price or naming them as sole heir. The registrar of course has to check mental capacity, undue pressure and the like and they would be liable for damages if they didn't do their job properly. In real life this is very difficult and hard to prove after the fact.

@Sibley I've also worked in auditing and one thing is sure, you can never completely prevent fraud. People with bad intentions will always find a way.

@SwordGuy in short: you sell me a property you didn't actually own, the real owner would get the record corrected, you ran away with the money? In that case you'd have received an unjust payment and it would be quite simple to start a civil claim procedure against you. If the official record was corrected, the fraud is basically already proven, you'd just need a rubber stamp from the judge. Assuming you haven't spent the money already I'd be able to reclaim the money.

When an estate is settled by a court and transferred to the heirs, aside from very exceptional circumstances, such as the fraud you mentioned, any new creditors are SOL. That's the whole point of settling an estate, in general it's final. Even in exceptional cases where assets are already sold and a judge later finds that shouldn't have happened, the heir wouldn't get the actual house (because that was sold in good faith to a third party) but instead they'd get a claim to the monetary value of the property.

 

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9244 on: May 31, 2022, 03:44:06 PM »
I wasn't prompt about swapping 457 contributions over to 401k contributions once I maxed out the 457, so my paycheck is entirely too large.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9912
  • Registered member
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9245 on: May 31, 2022, 03:45:04 PM »
Lol I just heard an ad on the radio for ďhome title lockĒ. Because apparently thieves will sell your title RIGHT OUT FROM UNDER YOUR NOSE

Taran Wanderer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9246 on: May 31, 2022, 04:29:54 PM »
Is this a good reason to always keep a small mortgage on the property?  Would it make such a title transfer more complicated and less likely to be successful?

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8925
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9247 on: May 31, 2022, 04:45:01 PM »
Is this a good reason to always keep a small mortgage on the property?  Would it make such a title transfer more complicated and less likely to be successful?
It's got to be a lien.   

stoaX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
  • Location: South Carolina
  • 'tis nothing good nor bad but thinking makes it so
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9248 on: May 31, 2022, 05:35:31 PM »
I wasn't prompt about swapping 457 contributions over to 401k contributions once I maxed out the 457, so my paycheck is entirely too large.

A true MPP.  I suggest you retire soon in order to avoid this problem in the future.

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #9249 on: May 31, 2022, 06:00:08 PM »
I wasn't prompt about swapping 457 contributions over to 401k contributions once I maxed out the 457, so my paycheck is entirely too large.

A true MPP.  I suggest you retire soon in order to avoid this problem in the future.

General target is 2023, but it all depends on when I'm no longer enjoying the job.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!