Author Topic: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)  (Read 5086473 times)

LennStar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8350 on: February 05, 2021, 03:40:41 AM »
Not really a problem but related to the previous post. I recently upped my contributions to max my 403b. It didn’t cause any issues but when I spoke to HR about it she commented “I was going to make sure you knew this was a really big number and that your paychecks would be really small, but I decided that you understood that I didn’t need to say anything.” I said, “Yes. I understand that.” Definitely must be unusual.

And my real MMP. We made a big pot of chicken noodle soup last night. I forgot to put it in the fridge. So frustrating but no way it’s safe this morning. Ugh. I hate wasting food and what pain to have to scrounge up lunch on an already busy day.
Huh, it's soup. I'd be tempted to boil it again. OTOH, I'm a vegetarian. Maybe with meat that's not such a good idea.

There's nothing wrong with that soup. I'd eat it.
The chicken is the problem. The soup might be alright. But in case the chicken was infected (which is relativly likely, thus why you should make sure to cook properly and don't use the chicken knife on anything else), it might well give you a few impressive hours on your toilet to think about it, or even worse.

Quote
If you heat that soup up to a simmer for 30 minutes, you’ll kill any pathogens
But not necessarily poison from those bacteria.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8351 on: February 05, 2021, 08:58:28 AM »
Not really a problem but related to the previous post. I recently upped my contributions to max my 403b. It didn’t cause any issues but when I spoke to HR about it she commented “I was going to make sure you knew this was a really big number and that your paychecks would be really small, but I decided that you understood that I didn’t need to say anything.” I said, “Yes. I understand that.” Definitely must be unusual.

And my real MMP. We made a big pot of chicken noodle soup last night. I forgot to put it in the fridge. So frustrating but no way it’s safe this morning. Ugh. I hate wasting food and what pain to have to scrounge up lunch on an already busy day.
Huh, it's soup. I'd be tempted to boil it again. OTOH, I'm a vegetarian. Maybe with meat that's not such a good idea.

There's nothing wrong with that soup. I'd eat it.
The chicken is the problem. The soup might be alright. But in case the chicken was infected (which is relativly likely, thus why you should make sure to cook properly and don't use the chicken knife on anything else), it might well give you a few impressive hours on your toilet to think about it, or even worse.

Quote
If you heat that soup up to a simmer for 30 minutes, you’ll kill any pathogens
But not necessarily poison from those bacteria.
Why is it relatively likely that the chicken was "infected" when it has already been cooked? Those warnings are for raw meat, and this clearly was not.

LennStar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8352 on: February 05, 2021, 09:34:43 AM »
Not all bacteria die from cooling temperatures, or for that matter household freezer temperature (some grow down to -10C).

A boiled soup is likely to be okay though, at least for healthy people. But in a care home or hospital...

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8353 on: February 05, 2021, 10:14:27 AM »
That much debated soup is long gone.

I set an alarm to remind me to put dinner away last night after it cooled.

Rest easy.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8354 on: February 05, 2021, 11:23:57 AM »
That much debated soup is long gone.

I set an alarm to remind me to put dinner away last night after it cooled.

Rest easy.

I have come close to doing that a few times.  Now I leave the light over the stove on until the food has cooled enough to go in the fridge.  I turn all the lights off before I go to bed, so if the stove light is still on the food gets put away then.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8355 on: February 05, 2021, 12:16:30 PM »
Letting food cool before putting it in the fridge is not necessary and in fact might be harmful. See the USDA guidelines here:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Leftovers_and_Food_Safety.pdf

"Bacteria grow rapidly between the temperatures of 40° F and 140° F. After food is safely cooked, hot food must be kept hot at 140° F or hotter to prevent bacterial growth. Within 2 hours of cooking food or holding it hot, leftovers must be refrigerated. Throw away all perishable foods that have been left at room temperature for more than 2 hours (1 hour if the temperature is over 90° F, such as at an outdoor picnic during summer)."

and

"To prevent bacterial growth, it’s important to cool food rapidly so it reaches as fast as possible the safe refrigerator-storage temperature of 40° F or below. To do this, divide large amounts of food into shallow containers. A big pot of soup, for example, will take a long time to cool, inviting bacteria to multiply and increasing the danger of foodborne illness. Instead, divide the pot of soup into smaller containers so it will cool quickly. Hot food can be placed directly in the refrigerator or be rapidly chilled in an ice or cold water bath before refrigerating.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8356 on: February 05, 2021, 12:47:18 PM »
Letting food cool before putting it in the fridge is not necessary and in fact might be harmful. See the USDA guidelines here:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Leftovers_and_Food_Safety.pdf

"Bacteria grow rapidly between the temperatures of 40° F and 140° F. After food is safely cooked, hot food must be kept hot at 140° F or hotter to prevent bacterial growth. Within 2 hours of cooking food or holding it hot, leftovers must be refrigerated. Throw away all perishable foods that have been left at room temperature for more than 2 hours (1 hour if the temperature is over 90° F, such as at an outdoor picnic during summer)."

and

"To prevent bacterial growth, it’s important to cool food rapidly so it reaches as fast as possible the safe refrigerator-storage temperature of 40° F or below. To do this, divide large amounts of food into shallow containers. A big pot of soup, for example, will take a long time to cool, inviting bacteria to multiply and increasing the danger of foodborne illness. Instead, divide the pot of soup into smaller containers so it will cool quickly. Hot food can be placed directly in the refrigerator or be rapidly chilled in an ice or cold water bath before refrigerating.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/

Things that make sense in commercial food service could maybe be overly cautious at home... Maybe I could have avoided a stomach ache or two over the past 25 years if I'd followed those guidelines. Not a big deal. I drink unfiltered creek water whenever i judge the risk acceptable though, so I'm crazy heretic when it comes to food safety.


merula

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8357 on: February 05, 2021, 01:26:07 PM »
Commercial food service vs home cooking is a law of large numbers issue. If you'll only make 1 out of every 100 people who eat a dish sick with your home cooking habits, that's fine, because the vast majority of the time nothing will happen with any given dish. But if you're cooking for 1,000 people daily, that's 10 people getting sick every day.

You may be familiar with this argument from recent Covid arguments. I work in insurance, I've been dealing with these issues my entire career.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8358 on: February 05, 2021, 01:48:08 PM »
Commercial food service vs home cooking is a law of large numbers issue. If you'll only make 1 out of every 100 people who eat a dish sick with your home cooking habits, that's fine, because the vast majority of the time nothing will happen with any given dish. But if you're cooking for 1,000 people daily, that's 10 people getting sick every day.

You may be familiar with this argument from recent Covid arguments. I work in insurance, I've been dealing with these issues my entire career.

I very much agree. It's why I think the things that make sense in a commercial kitchen are overkill for the average person cooking for themselves. I'm all for best commercial kitchens following best practices. A couple years before I arrived there my college cafeteria somehow made a mistake where water contaminated with raw chicken ended up in the ice machine... They had to turn the gyms into an infirmary for a few days!

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8359 on: February 05, 2021, 04:11:05 PM »
I was actually trying to say that you can be LESS cautious than the people who are setting a timer to remind them to put the food into the fridge. You can just cook, scoop out what you want, throw the rest in the fridge, and go eat. No need to wait for it to cool before putting it in the fridge.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8360 on: February 05, 2021, 04:57:49 PM »
I was actually trying to say that you can be LESS cautious than the people who are setting a timer to remind them to put the food into the fridge. You can just cook, scoop out what you want, throw the rest in the fridge, and go eat. No need to wait for it to cool before putting it in the fridge.
Yeah, not sure why anyone would want to put in more effort for something that is known to be less safe.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8361 on: February 05, 2021, 05:22:23 PM »
I was actually trying to say that you can be LESS cautious than the people who are setting a timer to remind them to put the food into the fridge. You can just cook, scoop out what you want, throw the rest in the fridge, and go eat. No need to wait for it to cool before putting it in the fridge.
Yeah, not sure why anyone would want to put in more effort for something that is known to be less safe.

My primary objection to dropping a whole pot in the fridge is space and the energy used to cool it down. I don't have any objection to setting it on my back porch to cool though... I did miss GreenSheep's intent though. Sorry about that... That's not by any chance a reference to your college? Perhaps you know the story of the chicken water ice.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8362 on: February 05, 2021, 05:55:04 PM »
I was actually trying to say that you can be LESS cautious than the people who are setting a timer to remind them to put the food into the fridge. You can just cook, scoop out what you want, throw the rest in the fridge, and go eat. No need to wait for it to cool before putting it in the fridge.
Yeah, not sure why anyone would want to put in more effort for something that is known to be less safe.

My primary objection to dropping a whole pot in the fridge is space and the energy used to cool it down. I don't have any objection to setting it on my back porch to cool though... I did miss GreenSheep's intent though. Sorry about that... That's not by any chance a reference to your college? Perhaps you know the story of the chicken water ice.

Uh... no? My name has nothing to do with anywhere I went to school. It's just that rather than being the black sheep, I am the green (financially savvy) sheep in my family.

Yeah, the USDA says you should divide a whole pot of something into multiple smaller containers... their reasoning is that it will cool down faster, but the side benefit is that it's easier to fit in the fridge. Although depending on where you live and the time of year, your back porch might be faster than the fridge!

I wonder if this "let it cool before you put it in the fridge" idea came about when refrigerators were much less efficient.

Dicey

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8363 on: February 05, 2021, 06:10:17 PM »
That much debated soup is long gone.

I set an alarm to remind me to put dinner away last night after it cooled.

Rest easy.

I have come close to doing that a few times.  Now I leave the light over the stove on until the food has cooled enough to go in the fridge.  I turn all the lights off before I go to bed, so if the stove light is still on the food gets put away then.
Ha! Me, too! Lesson learned the hard way. Also had to teach DH that if that particular light was on that it Meant Something to me and to please leave it on.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8364 on: February 05, 2021, 06:29:31 PM »
Uh... no? My name has nothing to do with anywhere I went to school. It's just that rather than being the black sheep, I am the green (financially savvy) sheep in my family.

Yeah, the USDA says you should divide a whole pot of something into multiple smaller containers... their reasoning is that it will cool down faster, but the side benefit is that it's easier to fit in the fridge. Although depending on where you live and the time of year, your back porch might be faster than the fridge!

I wonder if this "let it cool before you put it in the fridge" idea came about when refrigerators were much less efficient.

Nice, I like that. The college I went to had a tradition involving a sheep someone had dyed green. I forget the details now.

The first refrigerator i remember having ran on propane! Maybe that's where I got the idea of not putting anything warm into from. We definitely did not open the the door and then think about what we wanted to eat.

LennStar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8365 on: February 06, 2021, 04:10:46 AM »
I was actually trying to say that you can be LESS cautious than the people who are setting a timer to remind them to put the food into the fridge. You can just cook, scoop out what you want, throw the rest in the fridge, and go eat. No need to wait for it to cool before putting it in the fridge.
Yeah, not sure why anyone would want to put in more effort for something that is known to be less safe.

My primary objection to dropping a whole pot in the fridge is space and the energy used to cool it down. I don't have any objection to setting it on my back porch to cool though... I did miss GreenSheep's intent though. Sorry about that... That's not by any chance a reference to your college? Perhaps you know the story of the chicken water ice.

Uh... no? My name has nothing to do with anywhere I went to school. It's just that rather than being the black sheep, I am the green (financially savvy) sheep in my family.

Yeah, the USDA says you should divide a whole pot of something into multiple smaller containers... their reasoning is that it will cool down faster, but the side benefit is that it's easier to fit in the fridge. Although depending on where you live and the time of year, your back porch might be faster than the fridge!

I wonder if this "let it cool before you put it in the fridge" idea came about when refrigerators were much less efficient.
It's not only about energy costs. It is also about heating up the inside space. That may not be an issue with todays US-sized refrigerators since they contain enough space and more cooling capacity because of the sheer size - but back in the days when a refrigerator was a lot smaller and less insulated, a large amount of hot soup (like for 5 people) might have increased the whole inside by 10 degrees or more for 2 hours. Not good for the milk in the opened bottle!

rebel_quietude

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8366 on: February 07, 2021, 12:06:19 PM »
Apropos of nothing, today's MPP: I keep having to re-do long term financial projections because the market blows an 8% expected average return out of the water. Projected NW at retirement has increased dramatically since I first started plugging numbers into a compound interest calc in 2013.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8367 on: February 07, 2021, 02:11:35 PM »
I was actually trying to say that you can be LESS cautious than the people who are setting a timer to remind them to put the food into the fridge. You can just cook, scoop out what you want, throw the rest in the fridge, and go eat. No need to wait for it to cool before putting it in the fridge.
Yeah, not sure why anyone would want to put in more effort for something that is known to be less safe.
My primary objection to dropping a whole pot in the fridge is space and the energy used to cool it down. I don't have any objection to setting it on my back porch to cool though... I did miss GreenSheep's intent though. Sorry about that... That's not by any chance a reference to your college? Perhaps you know the story of the chicken water ice.
Uh... no? My name has nothing to do with anywhere I went to school. It's just that rather than being the black sheep, I am the green (financially savvy) sheep in my family.

Yeah, the USDA says you should divide a whole pot of something into multiple smaller containers... their reasoning is that it will cool down faster, but the side benefit is that it's easier to fit in the fridge. Although depending on where you live and the time of year, your back porch might be faster than the fridge!

I wonder if this "let it cool before you put it in the fridge" idea came about when refrigerators were much less efficient.
It's not only about energy costs. It is also about heating up the inside space. That may not be an issue with todays US-sized refrigerators since they contain enough space and more cooling capacity because of the sheer size - but back in the days when a refrigerator was a lot smaller and less insulated, a large amount of hot soup (like for 5 people) might have increased the whole inside by 10 degrees or more for 2 hours. Not good for the milk in the opened bottle!

My 12-year-old GE fridge has a button along the top for just this - if you are knowingly putting something rather warm inside, you push the Turbo Cool button and I guess it cranks out a bit of extra cold for a while to offset the heat you have added.  I have never used it and forgotten about it completely until this thread. I am also notorious for leaving food out overnight - perhaps I should try it! :D

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8368 on: February 07, 2021, 05:00:21 PM »
I was actually trying to say that you can be LESS cautious than the people who are setting a timer to remind them to put the food into the fridge. You can just cook, scoop out what you want, throw the rest in the fridge, and go eat. No need to wait for it to cool before putting it in the fridge.
Yeah, not sure why anyone would want to put in more effort for something that is known to be less safe.
My primary objection to dropping a whole pot in the fridge is space and the energy used to cool it down. I don't have any objection to setting it on my back porch to cool though... I did miss GreenSheep's intent though. Sorry about that... That's not by any chance a reference to your college? Perhaps you know the story of the chicken water ice.
Uh... no? My name has nothing to do with anywhere I went to school. It's just that rather than being the black sheep, I am the green (financially savvy) sheep in my family.

Yeah, the USDA says you should divide a whole pot of something into multiple smaller containers... their reasoning is that it will cool down faster, but the side benefit is that it's easier to fit in the fridge. Although depending on where you live and the time of year, your back porch might be faster than the fridge!

I wonder if this "let it cool before you put it in the fridge" idea came about when refrigerators were much less efficient.
It's not only about energy costs. It is also about heating up the inside space. That may not be an issue with todays US-sized refrigerators since they contain enough space and more cooling capacity because of the sheer size - but back in the days when a refrigerator was a lot smaller and less insulated, a large amount of hot soup (like for 5 people) might have increased the whole inside by 10 degrees or more for 2 hours. Not good for the milk in the opened bottle!

My 12-year-old GE fridge has a button along the top for just this - if you are knowingly putting something rather warm inside, you push the Turbo Cool button and I guess it cranks out a bit of extra cold for a while to offset the heat you have added.  I have never used it and forgotten about it completely until this thread. I am also notorious for leaving food out overnight - perhaps I should try it! :D

I will have to remember that for when I move someplace warm. It was -13F when I woke up today. I have been known to set stuff outside to cool it off.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8369 on: February 08, 2021, 01:21:06 AM »
i probably have an iron stomach, lol.
My parents used to leave the cooked chili, bolognese sauce, soups out on the stove for up to two days. If it didn't fit in the fridge as is, pot and all, out it stayed until eaten.

i'm being more reasonable with my own cooking, but i'm not exactly keeping time for how long stuff takes to cool before it eventually gets stashed and cooled

Same. I leave food overnight on the stove all the time. Like my parents when I was growing up. Never had any problems, ever. The nature gave us senses and ability to identify bad food - if it smells bad or tastes sour, it’s bad. If it smells ok and tastes ok I’ll eat it. I don’t leave it out more then overnight or all day though - but 8-12 hours is fine.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8370 on: February 08, 2021, 09:21:00 AM »
My Mustachian people problem- DH won't let me start prepping our taxes since we may be modestly over the upcoming stimulus check income limit if it is decreased to 100k. I typically enjoy doing taxes (it's a nice way to do a formal check-in on our income and look at the progress we've made career-wise and personally). Getting a refund early in the year is pretty nice too! So... I will exercise patience this year.

Our understanding is that if we file our 2020 taxes now, the gov't will base our stimulus check on the AGI reported therein, while if we receive a check based on our 2019 income we will not owe it back even if our 2020 AGI is higher than the income limits. At least, based on the previous stimulus bill rules...? Is that correct or are we misinterpreting?

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8371 on: February 08, 2021, 09:24:22 AM »
My Mustachian people problem- DH won't let me start prepping our taxes since we may be modestly over the upcoming stimulus check income limit if it is decreased to 100k. I typically enjoy doing taxes (it's a nice way to do a formal check-in on our income and look at the progress we've made career-wise and personally). Getting a refund early in the year is pretty nice too! So... I will exercise patience this year.

Our understanding is that if we file our 2020 taxes now, the gov't will base our stimulus check on the AGI reported therein, while if we receive a check based on our 2019 income we will not owe it back even if our 2020 AGI is higher than the income limits. At least, based on the previous stimulus bill rules...? Is that correct or are we misinterpreting?

I was under the impression that either way, when you file taxes for the year it will all be tried up. That is, you might get a stimulus check with this method, but if your are over the limit you will pay it back with your 2021 taxes. I could be wrong, I am not close to any cut offs and so have only gleaned what has been mentioned here and there, I haven't looked into any of it.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8372 on: February 08, 2021, 09:40:14 AM »
My Mustachian people problem- DH won't let me start prepping our taxes since we may be modestly over the upcoming stimulus check income limit if it is decreased to 100k. I typically enjoy doing taxes (it's a nice way to do a formal check-in on our income and look at the progress we've made career-wise and personally). Getting a refund early in the year is pretty nice too! So... I will exercise patience this year.

Our understanding is that if we file our 2020 taxes now, the gov't will base our stimulus check on the AGI reported therein, while if we receive a check based on our 2019 income we will not owe it back even if our 2020 AGI is higher than the income limits. At least, based on the previous stimulus bill rules...? Is that correct or are we misinterpreting?

I was under the impression that either way, when you file taxes for the year it will all be tried up. That is, you might get a stimulus check with this method, but if your are over the limit you will pay it back with your 2021 taxes. I could be wrong, I am not close to any cut offs and so have only gleaned what has been mentioned here and there, I haven't looked into any of it.

For the first stimulus you are indeed wrong.  I haven’t checked the second and we can’t know for the third until the bill is passed but I’d be surprised if they changed the approach

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8373 on: February 08, 2021, 09:45:11 AM »
Just to chime in...as a chef, you don't need to throw food away that has been left out for 2 hours at room temperature...that's 6 hours if it comes from a controlled environment (i.e. Cold storage at 39 or below, or cooked to the proper internal temp for that dish), and stays in a controlled environment (room temp would qualify)...as long as you don't then serve it again...would have to throw away after the 6 hours. If you keep it outside the danger zone, and document every 2 hours, you can then cool it effectively (taken from above 140 to below 70 in the first 2 hours, and then from 70 to below 40 over the next 4 hours), you can re-heat it for later use.

At home, if you are going to follow all the USDA rules (I don't), then you also can't use anything in the fridge opened for more than 7 days, and with some products less (Milk is 3 days open and dated). No one does that. If it doesn't smell or feel slimey, I'm cooking that stuff up and eating it.

merula

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8374 on: February 08, 2021, 04:02:44 PM »
My Mustachian people problem- DH won't let me start prepping our taxes since we may be modestly over the upcoming stimulus check income limit if it is decreased to 100k. I typically enjoy doing taxes (it's a nice way to do a formal check-in on our income and look at the progress we've made career-wise and personally). Getting a refund early in the year is pretty nice too! So... I will exercise patience this year.

Our understanding is that if we file our 2020 taxes now, the gov't will base our stimulus check on the AGI reported therein, while if we receive a check based on our 2019 income we will not owe it back even if our 2020 AGI is higher than the income limits. At least, based on the previous stimulus bill rules...? Is that correct or are we misinterpreting?

I was under the impression that either way, when you file taxes for the year it will all be tried up. That is, you might get a stimulus check with this method, but if your are over the limit you will pay it back with your 2021 taxes. I could be wrong, I am not close to any cut offs and so have only gleaned what has been mentioned here and there, I haven't looked into any of it.

For the first stimulus you are indeed wrong.  I haven’t checked the second and we can’t know for the third until the bill is passed but I’d be surprised if they changed the approach

Dragoncar is correct. From https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf:

Subtract line 16 from line 15. If zero or less, enter -0-. If line 16 is more than line 15, you don’t have to pay back
the difference

Where line 16 is the Economic Impact Payments already received, and line 15 is the calculation of the Recovery Rebate Credit you would've earned.

I personally think that it's likely that any new stimulus will require people to file their 2020 taxes and not be based on 2019 or prior years. When the first round of stimulus was being debated, a lot of places had suddenly shut down with little to no plan to offer distanced or virtual services, but since we've had a year to plan, that's not really the case anymore. (For example, the VITA site where I do volunteer tax prep shut down completely last February, but this year there's a whole virtual infrastructure built out so we'll be doing returns again starting this week.)

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8375 on: February 08, 2021, 07:39:18 PM »
This morning I was on a zoom call and someone mentioned being upset about what happened in Kansas City yesterday. I immediately thought there was a mass shooting or bombing that I hadn't heard about, until other people started laughing and I realized they were talking about the super bowl. I had totally forgotten about it.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8376 on: February 08, 2021, 08:09:04 PM »
This morning I was on a zoom call and someone mentioned being upset about what happened in Kansas City yesterday. I immediately thought there was a mass shooting or bombing that I hadn't heard about, until other people started laughing and I realized they were talking about the super bowl. I had totally forgotten about it.

What happened at the Super Bowl?  Besides one team winning and one team losing?  I didn't even realize it was in Kansas City, I had it in my head that it was in Florida. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8377 on: February 09, 2021, 02:10:25 AM »
It was in Florida. The NFL always picks a warm stadium for the benefit of their coddled guests. Nobody with enough money to attend wants anything to do with open air stadiums in Midwestern states in February.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8378 on: February 09, 2021, 03:56:49 AM »
This morning I was on a zoom call and someone mentioned being upset about what happened in Kansas City yesterday. I immediately thought there was a mass shooting or bombing that I hadn't heard about, until other people started laughing and I realized they were talking about the super bowl. I had totally forgotten about it.

What happened at the Super Bowl?  Besides one team winning and one team losing?  I didn't even realize it was in Kansas City, I had it in my head that it was in Florida.

I just looked it up. Kansas City was the losing team. The way the lady's voice sounded, I really thought there was a mass shooting for a minute.

I really don't get how people decide which team to like.

Steeze

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8379 on: February 09, 2021, 05:10:17 AM »
This morning I was on a zoom call and someone mentioned being upset about what happened in Kansas City yesterday. I immediately thought there was a mass shooting or bombing that I hadn't heard about, until other people started laughing and I realized they were talking about the super bowl. I had totally forgotten about it.

What happened at the Super Bowl?  Besides one team winning and one team losing?  I didn't even realize it was in Kansas City, I had it in my head that it was in Florida.

I just looked it up. Kansas City was the losing team. The way the lady's voice sounded, I really thought there was a mass shooting for a minute.

I really don't get how people decide which team to like.

If you bet money on the game the whole thing makes more sense.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8380 on: February 09, 2021, 06:04:54 AM »
Letting food cool before putting it in the fridge is not necessary and in fact might be harmful. See the USDA guidelines here:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Leftovers_and_Food_Safety.pdf

"Bacteria grow rapidly between the temperatures of 40° F and 140° F. After food is safely cooked, hot food must be kept hot at 140° F or hotter to prevent bacterial growth. Within 2 hours of cooking food or holding it hot, leftovers must be refrigerated. Throw away all perishable foods that have been left at room temperature for more than 2 hours (1 hour if the temperature is over 90° F, such as at an outdoor picnic during summer)."

and

"To prevent bacterial growth, it’s important to cool food rapidly so it reaches as fast as possible the safe refrigerator-storage temperature of 40° F or below. To do this, divide large amounts of food into shallow containers. A big pot of soup, for example, will take a long time to cool, inviting bacteria to multiply and increasing the danger of foodborne illness. Instead, divide the pot of soup into smaller containers so it will cool quickly. Hot food can be placed directly in the refrigerator or be rapidly chilled in an ice or cold water bath before refrigerating.

so doesn't the reheating process kill all the bacteria?

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8381 on: February 09, 2021, 06:07:25 AM »
The little 30 year-old plastic wallet holding my credit card, licence, etc has almost fallen apart so I had to use a lot of duct tape to mend it. Should last another 30 years, much to my very fashionable sister's horror. She snatched it off me the last time we were out with friends and showed them all so they could have a good laugh. I didn't care, as I am the only one out of the group who has a paid-off house and doesn't need to work.

i've been making my own wallets out of old dog food bags and duct tape mostly just to see how well they hold up. the one i have now looks pathetic but i've been using it for almost 2 years. i actually got a compliment about it at one point but that was when it was new.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8382 on: February 09, 2021, 06:31:38 AM »
The little 30 year-old plastic wallet holding my credit card, licence, etc has almost fallen apart so I had to use a lot of duct tape to mend it. Should last another 30 years, much to my very fashionable sister's horror. She snatched it off me the last time we were out with friends and showed them all so they could have a good laugh. I didn't care, as I am the only one out of the group who has a paid-off house and doesn't need to work.

i've been making my own wallets out of old dog food bags and duct tape mostly just to see how well they hold up. the one i have now looks pathetic but i've been using it for almost 2 years. i actually got a compliment about it at one point but that was when it was new.

Compliments said not sarcastically?... Ok, I am kidding, but there is definitely stigma (smell) associated with old dog food bags...

chaskavitch

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8383 on: February 09, 2021, 06:33:40 AM »
Letting food cool before putting it in the fridge is not necessary and in fact might be harmful. See the USDA guidelines here:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Leftovers_and_Food_Safety.pdf

"Bacteria grow rapidly between the temperatures of 40° F and 140° F. After food is safely cooked, hot food must be kept hot at 140° F or hotter to prevent bacterial growth. Within 2 hours of cooking food or holding it hot, leftovers must be refrigerated. Throw away all perishable foods that have been left at room temperature for more than 2 hours (1 hour if the temperature is over 90° F, such as at an outdoor picnic during summer)."

and

"To prevent bacterial growth, it’s important to cool food rapidly so it reaches as fast as possible the safe refrigerator-storage temperature of 40° F or below. To do this, divide large amounts of food into shallow containers. A big pot of soup, for example, will take a long time to cool, inviting bacteria to multiply and increasing the danger of foodborne illness. Instead, divide the pot of soup into smaller containers so it will cool quickly. Hot food can be placed directly in the refrigerator or be rapidly chilled in an ice or cold water bath before refrigerating.

so doesn't the reheating process kill all the bacteria?

Some bacteria produce spores that can survive the heating process and turn back into more bacteria later, and some bacteria actually produce toxins that aren't affected at all by heating.  Bacterial food intoxication is the kind of food poisoning that comes on pretty quickly, because it doesn't require the bacteria to replicate inside your body.  You're just eating toxins :(

rantk81

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8384 on: February 09, 2021, 06:46:55 AM »
Some bacteria produce spores that can survive the heating process and turn back into more bacteria later, and some bacteria actually produce toxins that aren't affected at all by heating.  Bacterial food intoxication is the kind of food poisoning that comes on pretty quickly, because it doesn't require the bacteria to replicate inside your body.  You're just eating toxins :(

I think I read something about rice being especially problematic in this regard.

That said, I generally leave my left-overs out for a couple of hours before putting it in the refrigerator.  I don't recall getting sick from it (yet!) :)

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8385 on: February 09, 2021, 06:54:46 AM »
Letting food cool before putting it in the fridge is not necessary and in fact might be harmful. See the USDA guidelines here:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Leftovers_and_Food_Safety.pdf

"Bacteria grow rapidly between the temperatures of 40° F and 140° F. After food is safely cooked, hot food must be kept hot at 140° F or hotter to prevent bacterial growth. Within 2 hours of cooking food or holding it hot, leftovers must be refrigerated. Throw away all perishable foods that have been left at room temperature for more than 2 hours (1 hour if the temperature is over 90° F, such as at an outdoor picnic during summer)."

and

"To prevent bacterial growth, it’s important to cool food rapidly so it reaches as fast as possible the safe refrigerator-storage temperature of 40° F or below. To do this, divide large amounts of food into shallow containers. A big pot of soup, for example, will take a long time to cool, inviting bacteria to multiply and increasing the danger of foodborne illness. Instead, divide the pot of soup into smaller containers so it will cool quickly. Hot food can be placed directly in the refrigerator or be rapidly chilled in an ice or cold water bath before refrigerating.

so doesn't the reheating process kill all the bacteria?

Some bacteria produce spores that can survive the heating process and turn back into more bacteria later, and some bacteria actually produce toxins that aren't affected at all by heating.  Bacterial food intoxication is the kind of food poisoning that comes on pretty quickly, because it doesn't require the bacteria to replicate inside your body.  You're just eating toxins :(

wow. my gf is notorious for leaving food out overnight and i have a history of an iffy stomach. she's trying to poison me!

merula

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8386 on: February 09, 2021, 07:06:35 AM »
It was in Florida. The NFL always picks a warm stadium for the benefit of their coddled guests. Nobody with enough money to attend wants anything to do with open air stadiums in Midwestern states in February.

The 2018 Super Bowl held in Minneapolis would beg to differ.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8387 on: February 09, 2021, 08:10:26 AM »
It was in Florida. The NFL always picks a warm stadium for the benefit of their coddled guests. Nobody with enough money to attend wants anything to do with open air stadiums in Midwestern states in February.

The 2018 Super Bowl held in Minneapolis would beg to differ.

And the 1996 Grey Cup.  Hamilton isn't considered heavy winter country like, say, Edmonton is.

The 84th Grey Cup, also known as The Snow Bowl, was the 1996 Grey Cup Canadian Football League championship game played between the Toronto Argonauts and the Edmonton Eskimos at Ivor Wynne Stadium in Hamilton, Ontario.  The temperature at game time was -10 °C, with 20 km/h winds and heavy snow. Tractors had to remove snow from the field prior to the game, as well as at halftime.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8388 on: February 09, 2021, 10:21:12 AM »
Letting food cool before putting it in the fridge is not necessary and in fact might be harmful. See the USDA guidelines here:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Leftovers_and_Food_Safety.pdf

"Bacteria grow rapidly between the temperatures of 40° F and 140° F. After food is safely cooked, hot food must be kept hot at 140° F or hotter to prevent bacterial growth. Within 2 hours of cooking food or holding it hot, leftovers must be refrigerated. Throw away all perishable foods that have been left at room temperature for more than 2 hours (1 hour if the temperature is over 90° F, such as at an outdoor picnic during summer)."

and

"To prevent bacterial growth, it’s important to cool food rapidly so it reaches as fast as possible the safe refrigerator-storage temperature of 40° F or below. To do this, divide large amounts of food into shallow containers. A big pot of soup, for example, will take a long time to cool, inviting bacteria to multiply and increasing the danger of foodborne illness. Instead, divide the pot of soup into smaller containers so it will cool quickly. Hot food can be placed directly in the refrigerator or be rapidly chilled in an ice or cold water bath before refrigerating.

so doesn't the reheating process kill all the bacteria?

Some bacteria produce spores that can survive the heating process and turn back into more bacteria later, and some bacteria actually produce toxins that aren't affected at all by heating.  Bacterial food intoxication is the kind of food poisoning that comes on pretty quickly, because it doesn't require the bacteria to replicate inside your body.  You're just eating toxins :(

wow. my gf is notorious for leaving food out overnight and i have a history of an iffy stomach. she's trying to poison me!

I'd definitely sleep with one eye open!

Paul der Krake

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8389 on: February 09, 2021, 10:41:58 AM »
It was in Florida. The NFL always picks a warm stadium for the benefit of their coddled guests. Nobody with enough money to attend wants anything to do with open air stadiums in Midwestern states in February.

The 2018 Super Bowl held in Minneapolis would beg to differ.
Minneapolis has a heated stadium, like Ford Field in Detroit and Lucas Oil in Indiannapolis where it was held in 2006 and 2012. The only exception to the rule in recent years was 2014 when they held it at the Metlife stadium in NJ.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8390 on: February 09, 2021, 12:10:24 PM »
Just to chime in...as a chef, you don't need to throw food away that has been left out for 2 hours at room temperature...that's 6 hours if it comes from a controlled environment (i.e. Cold storage at 39 or below, or cooked to the proper internal temp for that dish), and stays in a controlled environment (room temp would qualify)...as long as you don't then serve it again...would have to throw away after the 6 hours. If you keep it outside the danger zone, and document every 2 hours, you can then cool it effectively (taken from above 140 to below 70 in the first 2 hours, and then from 70 to below 40 over the next 4 hours), you can re-heat it for later use.

At home, if you are going to follow all the USDA rules (I don't), then you also can't use anything in the fridge opened for more than 7 days, and with some products less (Milk is 3 days open and dated). No one does that. If it doesn't smell or feel slimey, I'm cooking that stuff up and eating it.

How do you feel about frozen things going directly into the crockpot?  I try to let things defrost over night, but sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes they are still frozen the next day.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8391 on: February 09, 2021, 01:07:56 PM »
Just to chime in...as a chef, you don't need to throw food away that has been left out for 2 hours at room temperature...that's 6 hours if it comes from a controlled environment (i.e. Cold storage at 39 or below, or cooked to the proper internal temp for that dish), and stays in a controlled environment (room temp would qualify)...as long as you don't then serve it again...would have to throw away after the 6 hours. If you keep it outside the danger zone, and document every 2 hours, you can then cool it effectively (taken from above 140 to below 70 in the first 2 hours, and then from 70 to below 40 over the next 4 hours), you can re-heat it for later use.

At home, if you are going to follow all the USDA rules (I don't), then you also can't use anything in the fridge opened for more than 7 days, and with some products less (Milk is 3 days open and dated). No one does that. If it doesn't smell or feel slimey, I'm cooking that stuff up and eating it.

How do you feel about frozen things going directly into the crockpot?  I try to let things defrost over night, but sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes they are still frozen the next day.
I'm not a chef, but we toss frozen meat into the crock pot quite regularly, with no issue.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8392 on: February 09, 2021, 01:37:59 PM »
Just to chime in...as a chef, you don't need to throw food away that has been left out for 2 hours at room temperature...that's 6 hours if it comes from a controlled environment (i.e. Cold storage at 39 or below, or cooked to the proper internal temp for that dish), and stays in a controlled environment (room temp would qualify)...as long as you don't then serve it again...would have to throw away after the 6 hours. If you keep it outside the danger zone, and document every 2 hours, you can then cool it effectively (taken from above 140 to below 70 in the first 2 hours, and then from 70 to below 40 over the next 4 hours), you can re-heat it for later use.

At home, if you are going to follow all the USDA rules (I don't), then you also can't use anything in the fridge opened for more than 7 days, and with some products less (Milk is 3 days open and dated). No one does that. If it doesn't smell or feel slimey, I'm cooking that stuff up and eating it.

How do you feel about frozen things going directly into the crockpot?  I try to let things defrost over night, but sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes they are still frozen the next day.
I'm not a chef, but we toss frozen meat into the crock pot quite regularly, with no issue.

I do too, but I've heard it's not the safest thing in the world.  We've never gotten sick, but I've got an iron stomach.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8393 on: February 09, 2021, 01:44:13 PM »
Just to chime in...as a chef, you don't need to throw food away that has been left out for 2 hours at room temperature...that's 6 hours if it comes from a controlled environment (i.e. Cold storage at 39 or below, or cooked to the proper internal temp for that dish), and stays in a controlled environment (room temp would qualify)...as long as you don't then serve it again...would have to throw away after the 6 hours. If you keep it outside the danger zone, and document every 2 hours, you can then cool it effectively (taken from above 140 to below 70 in the first 2 hours, and then from 70 to below 40 over the next 4 hours), you can re-heat it for later use.

At home, if you are going to follow all the USDA rules (I don't), then you also can't use anything in the fridge opened for more than 7 days, and with some products less (Milk is 3 days open and dated). No one does that. If it doesn't smell or feel slimey, I'm cooking that stuff up and eating it.

How do you feel about frozen things going directly into the crockpot?  I try to let things defrost over night, but sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes they are still frozen the next day.

At work we would never do that,  but at home I'd have no qualms about it...especially in a crock pot where internal temp of any meat is most likely going to be over 165 anyways.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8394 on: February 09, 2021, 06:51:18 PM »
My current MPP is that I finally grok'd how the "Required Minimum Distribution" applies in my personal situation. I feel pretty stupid that I thought I could withdraw just what I needed to live on without incurring major tax penalties. All this talk about the 4% rule, I was envisioning a 1-2% drawdown each year. And while I don't technically have to start doing the RMD, my stash is to the point that I'd just be delaying the inevitable. The amounts involved will put me in a tax bracket that I never dreamed would apply in retirement.

Yes, I'm whining about having to take TOO MUCH MONEY out each year. Waaah for me!
We also Waaah for you. :-) 

I am drawing down early a IRA via a SEPP  72(t) rule thing, to _help_ mitigate that issue.   When we get to 65, we will  be paying taxes again in a big way.

Freedomin5

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8395 on: February 10, 2021, 01:12:12 AM »
My current MPP is that I finally grok'd how the "Required Minimum Distribution" applies in my personal situation. I feel pretty stupid that I thought I could withdraw just what I needed to live on without incurring major tax penalties. All this talk about the 4% rule, I was envisioning a 1-2% drawdown each year. And while I don't technically have to start doing the RMD, my stash is to the point that I'd just be delaying the inevitable. The amounts involved will put me in a tax bracket that I never dreamed would apply in retirement.

Yes, I'm whining about having to take TOO MUCH MONEY out each year. Waaah for me!
We also Waaah for you. :-) 

I am drawing down early a IRA via a SEPP  72(t) rule thing, to _help_ mitigate that issue.   When we get to 65, we will  be paying taxes again in a big way.

I approve of this MPP. I shall cue my tiny violin for you to bewail your unfortunate circumstances.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8396 on: February 10, 2021, 03:23:11 AM »
The Wail of the Taxpayer, D-Moll

so doesn't the reheating process kill all the bacteria?
Just for education: There are bacteria that thrive in nearly every environment you can find on earth. That includes freezing temperatures but also 100°C+ hot water in the deep sea near black smokers.
It would be a scientific sensation if you find those in your kitchen, but I personally refrain from ever saying "all bacteria" as long as I am not extremely sure.
Bacteria are amazing! Life is amazing!

dcheesi

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8397 on: February 10, 2021, 07:27:55 AM »
Some bacteria produce spores that can survive the heating process and turn back into more bacteria later, and some bacteria actually produce toxins that aren't affected at all by heating.  Bacterial food intoxication is the kind of food poisoning that comes on pretty quickly, because it doesn't require the bacteria to replicate inside your body.  You're just eating toxins :(

I think I read something about rice being especially problematic in this regard.

That said, I generally leave my left-overs out for a couple of hours before putting it in the refrigerator.  I don't recall getting sick from it (yet!) :)
https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/can-reheating-rice-cause-food-poisoning/

Basically, the spores are dormant in dried, uncooked rice. When you cook the rice, you also re-hydrate it; the spores survive the cooking process, and can germinate once the rice cools a bit. Once germinated, the active bacteria multiply and begin making toxins. Refrigeration pauses the bacterial activity, but doesn't kill the bacteria or affect the toxins already present. Reheating the rice may not kill all the active bacteria, and even if it does the toxins from before are still there. Also any spores that didn't germinate the first time might still be able to germinate and cause problems if the rice sits out at room temperature once again.

TL;DR: cooked rice should always be kept out of the "danger zone" temperature range (roughly 40F-140F); either steaming hot, or else refrigerated. The longer it sits at room temperature, or in a warming tray, the more chance for toxins to potentially accumulate (if the bacterium was present to begin with). Additional heating/cooking doesn't solve the problem, nor does it even reset the clock on it.

Rhinodad

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8398 on: February 10, 2021, 07:31:04 AM »
I always used to wonder why they would have an RMD in the first place, and why people would complain about it. Now that I've found MMM, and have started to save aggressively, it's all making sense now!

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #8399 on: February 10, 2021, 09:06:32 AM »
I always used to wonder why they would have an RMD in the first place, and why people would complain about it. Now that I've found MMM, and have started to save aggressively, it's all making sense now!
I spent decades learning how to put it away, never gave much thought to the taking it out action. It was always drilled into me that "you'll be in a lower tax bracket after you retire." Um, looks like that's a nope!

Feverishly reading all I can in the Post-FIRE threads. Wish I'd done that a lot sooner!

Yep, "I have so much money I have to pay taxes!!!" is a pretty good problem to have.