Author Topic: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)  (Read 3156717 times)

ixtap

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5300 on: June 20, 2018, 12:49:32 PM »
Never did the standard deduction before, always itemized but the new numbers for standard deduction may be better for us.

If you use the standard deduction, is there anything you can take off like property tax?
There are above the line deductions, but property tax is no longer a deduction.
Property taxes *are* still a valid deduction, but 1) only if you don't take the standard deduction, and 2) you're now limited to a total of $10k of deductions from SALT (state and local taxes), including property taxes.

So at the end of last year, there were a lot of people pre-paying their property taxes in high-property-tax states, to maximize their deductions over two years--stack up the itemized deductions in 2017, take the standard in 2018.

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.

LennStar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5301 on: June 20, 2018, 01:04:27 PM »
Never did the standard deduction before, always itemized but the new numbers for standard deduction may be better for us.

If you use the standard deduction, is there anything you can take off like property tax?
There are above the line deductions, but property tax is no longer a deduction.
Property taxes *are* still a valid deduction, but 1) only if you don't take the standard deduction, and 2) you're now limited to a total of $10k of deductions from SALT (state and local taxes), including property taxes.

So at the end of last year, there were a lot of people pre-paying their property taxes in high-property-tax states, to maximize their deductions over two years--stack up the itemized deductions in 2017, take the standard in 2018.

Wait a second.

You can deduct direct taxes like property tax from your tax payment?

Means if you are poor and not paying property taxes, you pay more taxes.
 
And there are still people saying the system isn't rigged towards the rich!

FIRE@50

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5302 on: June 20, 2018, 01:10:57 PM »
Never did the standard deduction before, always itemized but the new numbers for standard deduction may be better for us.

If you use the standard deduction, is there anything you can take off like property tax?
There are above the line deductions, but property tax is no longer a deduction.
Property taxes *are* still a valid deduction, but 1) only if you don't take the standard deduction, and 2) you're now limited to a total of $10k of deductions from SALT (state and local taxes), including property taxes.

So at the end of last year, there were a lot of people pre-paying their property taxes in high-property-tax states, to maximize their deductions over two years--stack up the itemized deductions in 2017, take the standard in 2018.

Wait a second.

You can deduct direct taxes like property tax from your tax payment?

Means if you are poor and not paying property taxes, you pay more taxes.
 
And there are still people saying the system isn't rigged towards the rich!
Yes & No

No, if you are poor, you pay almost no taxes.

Yes, the system is still rigged.

Dragonswan

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5303 on: June 20, 2018, 01:57:45 PM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?

FIRE@50

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5304 on: June 20, 2018, 02:04:54 PM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.

dragoncar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5305 on: June 20, 2018, 02:06:26 PM »
Never did the standard deduction before, always itemized but the new numbers for standard deduction may be better for us.

If you use the standard deduction, is there anything you can take off like property tax?
There are above the line deductions, but property tax is no longer a deduction.
Property taxes *are* still a valid deduction, but 1) only if you don't take the standard deduction, and 2) you're now limited to a total of $10k of deductions from SALT (state and local taxes), including property taxes.

So at the end of last year, there were a lot of people pre-paying their property taxes in high-property-tax states, to maximize their deductions over two years--stack up the itemized deductions in 2017, take the standard in 2018.

Wait a second.

You can deduct direct taxes like property tax from your tax payment?

Means if you are poor and not paying property taxes, you pay more taxes.
 
And there are still people saying the system isn't rigged towards the rich!

Wut?  Iím not sure where the idea came from that a tax deduction saves you money overall.   Even after deducting property tax, you still pay more total tax than you would have if you paid no property tax in the first place

This line of thinking leads to antimustachians leasing business SUVs ďfor the tax deductionĒ
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 02:08:24 PM by dragoncar »

Dragonswan

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5306 on: June 20, 2018, 02:09:16 PM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.
Exactly.

Goldielocks

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5307 on: June 20, 2018, 03:27:10 PM »
Okay -- I am blanking -- how does the lack of payroll taxes over $120k become "huge" for the employee.  For the employer, well, yes, but are you pointing out that you have maxed out your SS and other employee payments?

Hmm.. I guess I am spoiled.  Ours max out at around $55k  (annual payment of $3500/yr or 6.6%) or so it does not seem like a "huge" benefit personally... ...  on the other hand, the payments back to you from them are a lot less than the USA, too.   (Parental leave excepted, of course)

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5308 on: June 20, 2018, 03:37:45 PM »
Property taxes *are* still a valid deduction, but 1) only if you don't take the standard deduction, and 2) you're now limited to a total of $10k of deductions from SALT (state and local taxes), including property taxes.

So at the end of last year, there were a lot of people pre-paying their property taxes in high-property-tax states, to maximize their deductions over two years--stack up the itemized deductions in 2017, take the standard in 2018.
Wait a second.

You can deduct direct taxes like property tax from your tax payment?
Dragonswan's explanation is correct.  Deductions, whether itemized or standard, are subtracted from your income, and then your tax is calculated on what's left.  So if I earned $60,000 and paid $3,000 in property tax and 3,000 in state income tax, my federal income tax is levied on the $54,000 that's left.  (yes, this is an oversimplified example, but works for the point we're discussing)

To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.
That's a very well-documented topic.  The short answer is that the top 1% get 19% of the income and pay 38% of the federal income tax, the top 10% get 46% and pay 70%, and so on.  There's a great chart near the top of that article that lays it all out--the cutoffs between the 1%, 10%, 25%, and 50%, the effective tax rates for each group, etc.  However, it does *not* include FICA as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 03:39:17 PM by zolotiyeruki »

LeRainDrop

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5309 on: June 20, 2018, 06:20:28 PM »
However, it does *not* include FICA as far as I can tell.

Who's FICA?  Why's he getting all my money?

dragoncar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5310 on: June 20, 2018, 08:21:40 PM »
However, it does *not* include FICA as far as I can tell.

Who's FICA?  Why's he getting all my money?

Itís really a moo point

BTDretire

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5311 on: June 21, 2018, 04:29:36 AM »


Not a plane, but watch out for flying backhoes!



I find this hilarious but that is probably just because in the past I have made way too many calls to have lines marked and I have seen way to many workers marking lines.  I am pretty sure there is a good % of those line markers that are just guessing, my backhoe operators have agreed with me.
I was installing an additional sprinkler head in our yard and called to have any lines marked.
They came out and marked electric lines and cable lines. While digging my trench I hit two TV/internet
cables and cut part way through them. I called to report it, the company wasn't interested they had
no report of problems, so it was ignored. I marked the spot thinking they will be out to fix it.
 It was a year later that I see a new orange cable running from the box in my yard over to the neighbors house.
 It took me a couple of months of carefully mowing around the cable before I buried about 6 ft that goes
from the box to my neighbors driveway. Two years later the orange cable still lays in their driveway going to the house, never got buried.

LennStar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5312 on: June 21, 2018, 05:13:01 AM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.

Basically thats it. (may differ slightly per country)

The poor pay the highest taxes compared to their income if you include all that stuff that is in the price of the necessary basic living expenses (sales tax for example) - or in other words, they pay the most taxes of income-% for just living.

The middle middle class pays the most percentage in regards to working income.

The higher middle class already pays less % because they have a greater capital gains percantage of their income, but already good tax evasion advisors.

And the richest pay the lowest % of their income as taxes.

It is as Warren Buffet likes to say: He pays less taxes (%) then his secretary.

And that is not even touching the topic of inheritances. 

Slow&Steady

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5313 on: June 21, 2018, 07:00:25 AM »
That's a very well-documented topic.  The short answer is that the top 1% get 19% of the income and pay 38% of the federal income tax, the top 10% get 46% and pay 70%, and so on.  There's a great chart near the top of that article that lays it all out--the cutoffs between the 1%, 10%, 25%, and 50%, the effective tax rates for each group, etc.  However, it does *not* include FICA as far as I can tell.

Bold part adds up to 108%, I think those numbers might be off.

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5314 on: June 21, 2018, 07:13:52 AM »
That's a very well-documented topic.  The short answer is that the top 1% get 19% of the income and pay 38% of the federal income tax, the top 10% get 46% and pay 70%, and so on.  There's a great chart near the top of that article that lays it all out--the cutoffs between the 1%, 10%, 25%, and 50%, the effective tax rates for each group, etc.  However, it does *not* include FICA as far as I can tell.

Bold part adds up to 108%, I think those numbers might be off.

Not if you include the top 1% in the top 10%.

Slow&Steady

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5315 on: June 21, 2018, 07:14:57 AM »
That's a very well-documented topic.  The short answer is that the top 1% get 19% of the income and pay 38% of the federal income tax, the top 10% get 46% and pay 70%, and so on.  There's a great chart near the top of that article that lays it all out--the cutoffs between the 1%, 10%, 25%, and 50%, the effective tax rates for each group, etc.  However, it does *not* include FICA as far as I can tell.

Bold part adds up to 108%, I think those numbers might be off.

Not if you include the top 1% in the top 10%.

Aha, good point!

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5316 on: June 21, 2018, 08:22:09 AM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.
The poor pay the highest taxes compared to their income if you include all that stuff that is in the price of the necessary basic living expenses (sales tax for example) - or in other words, they pay the most taxes of income-% for just living.

The middle middle class pays the most percentage in regards to working income.

The higher middle class already pays less % because they have a greater capital gains percantage of their income, but already good tax evasion advisors.

And the richest pay the lowest % of their income as taxes.

It is as Warren Buffet likes to say: He pays less taxes (%) then his secretary.

And that is not even touching the topic of inheritances.
I'd like to see some test cases run with specific numbers to support the claim that the lowest-income folks pay the highest taxes compared to income.  In addition, it's not even as simple as including taxation on all levels--if we're concerned about "fairness," we must also take into account all the other government programs in place to help the poor.

dragoncar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5317 on: June 21, 2018, 10:10:15 AM »
That's a very well-documented topic.  The short answer is that the top 1% get 19% of the income and pay 38% of the federal income tax, the top 10% get 46% and pay 70%, and so on.  There's a great chart near the top of that article that lays it all out--the cutoffs between the 1%, 10%, 25%, and 50%, the effective tax rates for each group, etc.  However, it does *not* include FICA as far as I can tell.

Bold part adds up to 108%, I think those numbers might be off.

Not if you include the top 1% in the top 10%.

Doesnít answer the question at all, though, which was about effective tax rates not percent of total taxes paid

Paul der Krake

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5318 on: June 21, 2018, 10:24:51 AM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.
The poor pay the highest taxes compared to their income if you include all that stuff that is in the price of the necessary basic living expenses (sales tax for example) - or in other words, they pay the most taxes of income-% for just living.

The middle middle class pays the most percentage in regards to working income.

The higher middle class already pays less % because they have a greater capital gains percantage of their income, but already good tax evasion advisors.

And the richest pay the lowest % of their income as taxes.

It is as Warren Buffet likes to say: He pays less taxes (%) then his secretary.

And that is not even touching the topic of inheritances.
I'd like to see some test cases run with specific numbers to support the claim that the lowest-income folks pay the highest taxes compared to income.  In addition, it's not even as simple as including taxation on all levels--if we're concerned about "fairness," we must also take into account all the other government programs in place to help the poor.
Those studies are questionable at best. Here in Washington where there is no personal income tax, you often see a study quoted that the poor spend 17% of their income on local taxes, while the rich spend something like 4%.

How can anyone spend 17% of their income on taxes when sales tax is 10% and there is no income tax? Unless you spend all your money on goods subject to excise taxes like gasoline, cigarettes, and booze? Well, to arrive at these numbers the study uses things like "imputed property taxes" that the renters pay, but conveniently completely ignore federal taxes, transfer payment between the state and federal government, corporate taxes, and a million other things.

If you buy an end product, whether it's rent, an airplane ticket, or a smartphone, it's not really relevant how many taxes the people who made the product paid.

Bicycle_B

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5319 on: June 21, 2018, 12:23:02 PM »
I personally think that imputing property tax is worthwhile. Most low income people rent, not own. Property tax is paid. It should be counted.

I have tried several times to estimate effective tax rate in the US at various income levels. My feeble calculations surprised me. Once I include property tax, sales taxes, income-related taxes at state and federal levels including FICA - as best I can figure, the system is pretty close to flat.

More specifically, it's close to flat except that the tippy top does get a break. But the "flat" nature of it is that the different benefits and costs at different income levels roughly cancel out for most groups. Individuals can vary. Individuals only get full value if they learn and pursue the relevant details of the tax code.

It looked like most income levels under the top 1 in 1000 have an effective rate close to the 25% to 30% range, or a bit lower. It was pretty close to total government tax receipts and total government spending, which I used as check totals. Receipts and apparent effective tax rates were slightly lower than spending, so my attempts corresponded to the fact the govt runs at a deficit.

Examples:
$20,000 income - federal income tax $730, FICA $1530, state income tax $400, sales tax $600, property tax 25% of rent $1800, auto registration $100, total $5160 => 25.8%.

$75,000 income - FIT $6620 after deducting 15,000 in 401k contributions; FICA $5700; state income tax $3500; sales tax $1200; property tax $4000; auto registration $100.  Total $21,162 => 28.2%.

$400,000 income (250k salary, 100k dividends, 50k passthrough; retirement contribution 50,000) - FIT 60,690; FICA $12,035; state income tax $18,000; sales tax $6,000; property tax $12,000; auto registration $300.  Total $109,025 => 27.3%.

My tentative conclusion was: OMG, the politicians have us split between people who think our system's regressive and people who think it's progressive - when it's roughly flat already!

Obviously my MPP is that I can spend too much time indulging my taste for calculations.

Clookie

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5320 on: June 21, 2018, 12:41:46 PM »
Anyone else thought they found their long lost tribe when they found this site or read the comments on this topic?

Me too. I feel at home here.

It feels hard when I'm asked by friends what I want for my birthday. I can't answer rice & beans and they are not very fond of giving me money.
Oh, the drama. The difficult life a mustachian

gaja

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5321 on: June 21, 2018, 01:58:07 PM »
Anyone else thought they found their long lost tribe when they found this site or read the comments on this topic?

Me too. I feel at home here.

It feels hard when I'm asked by friends what I want for my birthday. I can't answer rice & beans and they are not very fond of giving me money.
Oh, the drama. The difficult life a mustachian

For my 30th, my parents bought me a toilet. We were adding a new bathroom to the house (made a small appartment to let), and needed a new toilet. One of the best birthday gifts I ever got. Especially since they gifted us the money, and we were able to find a brand new one on craigslist for half the price.

Hirondelle

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5322 on: June 21, 2018, 02:11:40 PM »
Anyone else thought they found their long lost tribe when they found this site or read the comments on this topic?

Me too. I feel at home here.

It feels hard when I'm asked by friends what I want for my birthday. I can't answer rice & beans and they are not very fond of giving me money.
Oh, the drama. The difficult life a mustachian

For my 30th, my parents bought me a toilet. We were adding a new bathroom to the house (made a small appartment to let), and needed a new toilet. One of the best birthday gifts I ever got. Especially since they gifted us the money, and we were able to find a brand new one on craigslist for half the price.

Friends are a tough one. My parents don't care too much so would indeed be just as happy to give me a toilet (haha) or money. My best friends know me and don't show up with crap anymore, usually we just take each other out for (cheap!) dinner or a concert/theatre or so. Friends that know me less well sometimes still show up with things like shower gels or perfumes but that means I just never have to buy those myself :).

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5323 on: June 22, 2018, 12:48:04 AM »
Anyone else thought they found their long lost tribe when they found this site or read the comments on this topic?

Me too. I feel at home here.

It feels hard when I'm asked by friends what I want for my birthday. I can't answer rice & beans and they are not very fond of giving me money.
Oh, the drama. The difficult life a mustachian

For my 30th, my parents bought me a toilet. We were adding a new bathroom to the house (made a small appartment to let), and needed a new toilet. One of the best birthday gifts I ever got. Especially since they gifted us the money, and we were able to find a brand new one on craigslist for half the price.

Friends are a tough one. My parents don't care too much so would indeed be just as happy to give me a toilet (haha) or money. My best friends know me and don't show up with crap anymore, usually we just take each other out for (cheap!) dinner or a concert/theatre or so. Friends that know me less well sometimes still show up with things like shower gels or perfumes but that means I just never have to buy those myself :).

Sometimes I just ask for a bottle of wine. We will enjoy to drink it and the friends can decide for themselves how much they want to spend on the wine.

Imma

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5324 on: June 22, 2018, 06:28:40 AM »
We hardly ever celebrate our birthdays and don't expect gifts. My mum just transfers money into my bank account.... then keeps nagging for months to hear what I spent it on. Apparantly index funds is not the right answer. One time I bought some clothes, expecting that would be a 'proper' gift, but apparantly basic clothing is not good enough for a birthday gift either. I'm starting at grad school right after my birthday this year, so hopefully she won't mind me spending the money on tuition / books.


Dicey

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5325 on: June 22, 2018, 07:01:05 AM »
My car flashes an "oil change soon" light every time you start it up when it gets down to 15% oil life remaining.  You have to hit a button to avoid having to look at the orange message on the dash.  Given how much I drive, it will take 3-4 months to get to 0-5% remaining (when I will change the oil) so I have to clear the light every time I drive until then.  Ugh.
I drive a Toyota and use synthetic oil.  I call it my nanny car because every 3k miles, not one but THREE warning lights are activated. There is a way to push buttons in an exact sequence to reset the system so it thinks you've changed the oil and stops screaming at you. I never remember the exact sequence, so I just ask Google for the YouTube video from the comfort of my very own driveway. It usually takes less than a minute to figure out.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5326 on: June 22, 2018, 07:10:15 AM »
We hardly ever celebrate our birthdays and don't expect gifts. My mum just transfers money into my bank account.... then keeps nagging for months to hear what I spent it on. Apparantly index funds is not the right answer. One time I bought some clothes, expecting that would be a 'proper' gift, but apparantly basic clothing is not good enough for a birthday gift either. I'm starting at grad school right after my birthday this year, so hopefully she won't mind me spending the money on tuition / books.

Hi Imma   I am probably about your mother's age, and I give DD practical presents -  like winter tires for her car, a table for her living room, the materials for a powder room (half bath) in her house.  Since we live 500 km apart, what really happens is I say - "I want to get you this for your birthday/Christmas, go buy it and I will reimburse you".  So yes, I give her money for practical stuff.  I would be totally fine with you spending gift money on tuition/books.

plainjane

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5327 on: June 22, 2018, 07:35:14 AM »
I pulled up my investment account this morning, and I can't remember if that number is higher or lower than it was last week. My initial thought was "awesome", but now I'm thinking maybe it is down, and I'm benchmarking against the beginning of the month before I dropped in June's contribution.

Slow&Steady

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5328 on: June 22, 2018, 07:42:41 AM »
Anyone else thought they found their long lost tribe when they found this site or read the comments on this topic?

Me too. I feel at home here.

It feels hard when I'm asked by friends what I want for my birthday. I can't answer rice & beans and they are not very fond of giving me money.
Oh, the drama. The difficult life a mustachian

For my 30th, my parents bought me a toilet. We were adding a new bathroom to the house (made a small appartment to let), and needed a new toilet. One of the best birthday gifts I ever got. Especially since they gifted us the money, and we were able to find a brand new one on craigslist for half the price.

Friends are a tough one. My parents don't care too much so would indeed be just as happy to give me a toilet (haha) or money. My best friends know me and don't show up with crap anymore, usually we just take each other out for (cheap!) dinner or a concert/theatre or so. Friends that know me less well sometimes still show up with things like shower gels or perfumes but that means I just never have to buy those myself :).

People have adult FRIENDS that give other adult FRIENDS birthday gifts?  The only adults I get or give gifts to are immediate family (parents/siblings/kids), and I am pretty sure that is just Christmas gifts, rarely birthday gifts.  I think it would be a little weird to get or give any of my friends a gift (beside somebody picking up the dinner check or bring a bottle of wine that we will drink together).

FIRE@50

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5329 on: June 22, 2018, 07:51:21 AM »
I pulled up my investment account this morning, and I can't remember if that number is higher or lower than it was last week. My initial thought was "awesome", but now I'm thinking maybe it is down, and I'm benchmarking against the beginning of the month before I dropped in June's contribution.

I have a spreadsheet with my 401k balance at 40.5 and projected balances every year until 59.5. My plan was to simply update this every year on my .5 birthday. Now, I'm debating whether or not I should have an actual column next to the projected balances so that over the years I can see if I beat the projections or not.

Hirondelle

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5330 on: June 22, 2018, 08:40:15 AM »
Anyone else thought they found their long lost tribe when they found this site or read the comments on this topic?

Me too. I feel at home here.

It feels hard when I'm asked by friends what I want for my birthday. I can't answer rice & beans and they are not very fond of giving me money.
Oh, the drama. The difficult life a mustachian

For my 30th, my parents bought me a toilet. We were adding a new bathroom to the house (made a small appartment to let), and needed a new toilet. One of the best birthday gifts I ever got. Especially since they gifted us the money, and we were able to find a brand new one on craigslist for half the price.

Friends are a tough one. My parents don't care too much so would indeed be just as happy to give me a toilet (haha) or money. My best friends know me and don't show up with crap anymore, usually we just take each other out for (cheap!) dinner or a concert/theatre or so. Friends that know me less well sometimes still show up with things like shower gels or perfumes but that means I just never have to buy those myself :).

People have adult FRIENDS that give other adult FRIENDS birthday gifts?  The only adults I get or give gifts to are immediate family (parents/siblings/kids), and I am pretty sure that is just Christmas gifts, rarely birthday gifts.  I think it would be a little weird to get or give any of my friends a gift (beside somebody picking up the dinner check or bring a bottle of wine that we will drink together).

I never realized this would be something weird?

Do you never have adult birthday celebrations? Milestone birthdays? In my country it's normal to give gifts during those, just like it's normal to give a gift for a wedding or when someone graduates. It's also completely acceptable to give money though, so in many friend groups it's just become a habit of handing each other $5 or $10 bills.

My friends even gave me gifts when I threw a little goodbye party when moving abroad for an exchange. I also bring a little gift of appreciation when I'm on a trip and staying with a friend - usually something related to an inside joke or good times together, often edible or drinkable :).

These are normal things in my environment so hard to opt out completely. Usually gifts aren't expensive though, think in the $5-10/person range.

Slow&Steady

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5331 on: June 22, 2018, 09:27:25 AM »
Anyone else thought they found their long lost tribe when they found this site or read the comments on this topic?

Me too. I feel at home here.

It feels hard when I'm asked by friends what I want for my birthday. I can't answer rice & beans and they are not very fond of giving me money.
Oh, the drama. The difficult life a mustachian

For my 30th, my parents bought me a toilet. We were adding a new bathroom to the house (made a small appartment to let), and needed a new toilet. One of the best birthday gifts I ever got. Especially since they gifted us the money, and we were able to find a brand new one on craigslist for half the price.

Friends are a tough one. My parents don't care too much so would indeed be just as happy to give me a toilet (haha) or money. My best friends know me and don't show up with crap anymore, usually we just take each other out for (cheap!) dinner or a concert/theatre or so. Friends that know me less well sometimes still show up with things like shower gels or perfumes but that means I just never have to buy those myself :).

People have adult FRIENDS that give other adult FRIENDS birthday gifts?  The only adults I get or give gifts to are immediate family (parents/siblings/kids), and I am pretty sure that is just Christmas gifts, rarely birthday gifts.  I think it would be a little weird to get or give any of my friends a gift (beside somebody picking up the dinner check or bring a bottle of wine that we will drink together).

I never realized this would be something weird?

Do you never have adult birthday celebrations? Milestone birthdays? In my country it's normal to give gifts during those, just like it's normal to give a gift for a wedding or when someone graduates. It's also completely acceptable to give money though, so in many friend groups it's just become a habit of handing each other $5 or $10 bills.

My friends even gave me gifts when I threw a little goodbye party when moving abroad for an exchange. I also bring a little gift of appreciation when I'm on a trip and staying with a friend - usually something related to an inside joke or good times together, often edible or drinkable :).

These are normal things in my environment so hard to opt out completely. Usually gifts aren't expensive though, think in the $5-10/person range.

The last big milestone birthday party I had was at 30.  We had lots of friend over to the house, had big dinner with lots of drinks and played card games/told stories/etc.  I don't remember getting a single gift that night but did get some from family members for my birthday.  I have gotten small gifts for friends as house warming, good bye, thank you, or even inside joke type of gift but not birthdays.  Maybe my friends and I are the weird ones.

dcheesi

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5332 on: June 22, 2018, 09:47:46 AM »
US-ian here, and I'd say gifts among friends aren't necessarily "weird", but not common either. Certainly not an expectation. This obviously varies in other countries (and maybe even in other parts of the USA?).

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5333 on: June 22, 2018, 10:31:18 AM »
US-ian here, and I'd say gifts among friends aren't necessarily "weird", but not common either. Certainly not an expectation. This obviously varies in other countries (and maybe even in other parts of the USA?).

I think it varies on when you made the friend, too. Friends from when I was younger/childhood, we still tend to do gifts, since the habit has been there so long. Friends made as adults, not so often.

plainjane

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5334 on: June 22, 2018, 10:49:07 AM »
I have a spreadsheet with my 401k balance at 40.5 and projected balances every year until 59.5. My plan was to simply update this every year on my .5 birthday. Now, I'm debating whether or not I should have an actual column next to the projected balances so that over the years I can see if I beat the projections or not.

My MPP is that I had a column next to the projected balances on how I actually did, but that was using my planned contributions as a variable. Since that changed with various life changes, I don't have a record of the actual original FIRE assumptions around contribution levels from 2012.

My other MPP is that there is a ton of food left over from the work party last night, but I've been taking advantage of free food too much the past couple of months and I have been over my comfortable weight range for a week, so I need to stick to my plan. (I put some into a plastic container to bring home for the SO, but have to leave the pizza.)

SimpleCycle

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5335 on: June 23, 2018, 05:31:26 PM »
I lost my wallet butI donít know when.  I last had it last Friday when I went grocery shopping, but I didnít spend money all week so no idea when it disappeared.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5336 on: June 24, 2018, 04:14:10 AM »
Call the grocery store. They may have it in their safe.

Clookie

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5337 on: June 24, 2018, 07:23:37 AM »
I have a spreadsheet with my 401k balance at 40.5 and projected balances every year until 59.5. My plan was to simply update this every year on my .5 birthday. Now, I'm debating whether or not I should have an actual column next to the projected balances so that over the years I can see if I beat the projections or not.

My MPP is that I had a column next to the projected balances on how I actually did, but that was using my planned contributions as a variable. Since that changed with various life changes, I don't have a record of the actual original FIRE assumptions around contribution levels from 2012.

My other MPP is that there is a ton of food left over from the work party last night, but I've been taking advantage of free food too much the past couple of months and I have been over my comfortable weight range for a week, so I need to stick to my plan. (I put some into a plastic container to bring home for the SO, but have to leave the pizza.)

You might try to look what you can bring home with you and freeze. A lot of stuff can be frozen and you can either eat it in a couple of moths or you can eat it in the following weeks, maybe with a salad on the side or a generous quantity of cooked vegetables on the side.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5338 on: June 24, 2018, 07:03:02 PM »
We hardly ever celebrate our birthdays and don't expect gifts. My mum just transfers money into my bank account.... then keeps nagging for months to hear what I spent it on. Apparantly index funds is not the right answer. One time I bought some clothes, expecting that would be a 'proper' gift, but apparantly basic clothing is not good enough for a birthday gift either. I'm starting at grad school right after my birthday this year, so hopefully she won't mind me spending the money on tuition / books.

At this point in my life the "universal gift certificate" is used to offset my taxes, as in anything they give to me I donate.  I don't think that is what they planned but htye gave it to me so it is mine to do as I wish.

woopwoop

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5339 on: June 24, 2018, 11:24:51 PM »
People have adult FRIENDS that give other adult FRIENDS birthday gifts? 
Sure, why not? I don't think it's weird at all, gifts are fun to make and give! Usually it's the birthday person who is hosting a party or inviting others out and doing all of the arrangements, a bit of reciprocity is called for imo. Plus it's a good excuse to give a friend something nice that they wouldn't get themselves. The last birthday party I went to was a friend I made a few months ago who invited me to an art opening she was in, so I just made some homemade chocolate truffles and put them in a nice box.

When I don't know someone well enough to know what they would like, I give them a candle and a card that says "I think you are pretty darn cool and I hope that by next year I know you well enough to get you something more awesome than a generic candle". 

My spin teacher gives everybody socks with weird patterns for their birthday; I can't wait for my birthday socks to see what she picks out. In conclusion, birthday presents rule!


Loren Ver

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5340 on: June 25, 2018, 05:04:25 AM »


When I don't know someone well enough to know what they would like, I give them a candle and a card that says "I think you are pretty darn cool and I hope that by next year I know you well enough to get you something more awesome than a generic candle". 


I really like the bold above.  DH and I make many of the gifts we give.  We like to share and expect no reciprocity.  We struggle when we don't know someone well enough to make a gift and your response really made me smile.  Thanks for sharing!

My problem, DH and I just move our FIRE date closer by one year.  This is great, but now we both need to recalculate our vacation usage as our employers do not pay it out when we leave and if you use to too much you have to pay it back.   

LV

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5341 on: June 25, 2018, 05:57:20 AM »


When I don't know someone well enough to know what they would like, I give them a candle and a card that says "I think you are pretty darn cool and I hope that by next year I know you well enough to get you something more awesome than a generic candle". 


I really like the bold above.  DH and I make many of the gifts we give.  We like to share and expect no reciprocity.  We struggle when we don't know someone well enough to make a gift and your response really made me smile.  Thanks for sharing!

My problem, DH and I just move our FIRE date closer by one year.  This is great, but now we both need to recalculate our vacation usage as our employers do not pay it out when we leave and if you use to too much you have to pay it back.   

LV

My friends and I give gifts - there are only 3-4 of us in a group, so we bands together, put £4-7 in each and buy random stuff we know we all like. one of my friends had a celebration this weekend, we all went out to a dance in a local cricket club - £5 entry, £3-4 a drink (alcoholic), and put in £4 each to buy her a Mexican death mask light (sounds weird, but she loved it!).

Imma

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5342 on: June 27, 2018, 02:08:05 AM »
I love giving gifts, especially home made thoughtful gifts, and I've been trying for years to establish a christmas gift tradition with the female half of the couple we celebrate christmas with.

My fiance is a true mustachian and thinks this is stupid, because there is not a single thing in the world he needs or wants that he doesn't already have...  Not even something nice and homemade.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5343 on: June 27, 2018, 02:36:26 AM »
I love giving gifts, especially home made thoughtful gifts, and I've been trying for years to establish a christmas gift tradition with the female half of the couple we celebrate christmas with.

My fiance is a true mustachian and thinks this is stupid, because there is not a single thing in the world he needs or wants that he doesn't already have...  Not even something nice and homemade.

The year that my brother started giving me money for a Christmas present, I suggested to stop giving gifts to the adults. I still make a yearly photo calendar for them from our own pictures, but that is just a small thing.

In the other half of the family we still do this. But we usually ask each other what we want to have. It is nice asking for something you don't want to buy yourself, but would like to have. It is also nice to buy something for another person that this person wants to receive. Buying a random gift is not nice, because you have no idea how appreciated it is.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5344 on: June 27, 2018, 05:08:43 AM »
My family did this a couple of years.

Each person put 3 things on a list with their name on it and kept the dollar value to $50. We put the lists in a hat and each of us pulled out a list out of the hat. We would buy one thing on the list and that would be the gift the person would receive. Each person got one nice gift and we didn't have to spend a fortune buying everyone in the family a gift. It definitely worked out nicely. They wouldn't know who they received the gift from as all the givers were anonymous.

plainjane

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5345 on: June 27, 2018, 08:18:27 AM »
You might try to look what you can bring home with you and freeze. A lot of stuff can be frozen and you can either eat it in a couple of moths or you can eat it in the following weeks, maybe with a salad on the side or a generous quantity of cooked vegetables on the side.

This is what I ended up doing on Friday. A couple of fellow scavengers got together and distributed the leftover food as matched dietary desires and discussed how more challenging items (like the soggy thin crust pizza) might be repurposed or frozen for later use. Yesterday I pointed out that the last of the olives and hot pepper things could probably be made into a tapenade for someone who likes that sort of thing, so that has found a home too.

BTDretire

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5346 on: June 27, 2018, 09:09:15 AM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.
The poor pay the highest taxes compared to their income if you include all that stuff that is in the price of the necessary basic living expenses (sales tax for example) - or in other words, they pay the most taxes of income-% for just living.

The middle middle class pays the most percentage in regards to working income.

The higher middle class already pays less % because they have a greater capital gains percantage of their income, but already good tax evasion advisors.

And the richest pay the lowest % of their income as taxes.

It is as Warren Buffet likes to say: He pays less taxes (%) then his secretary.

And that is not even touching the topic of inheritances.
I'd like to see some test cases run with specific numbers to support the claim that the lowest-income folks pay the highest taxes compared to income.  In addition, it's not even as simple as including taxation on all levels--if we're concerned about "fairness," we must also take into account all the other government programs in place to help the poor.
It always comes back to your personal philosophy regarding wages vs dividend/interest income. If you think dividend/interest income should be taxed different than wages, then you see that the rich pay much higher percentage in taxes.
  If you think dividend/interest income should be taxed the same as wages then the rich pay a lower percentage in taxes. Of course individuals very, some have lots of dividend/interest income, other high wages.
  I like the special tax treatment of dividend/interest income. even though our average inflation adjusted income has been about $71k.
  And then some people consider FICA a tax the poor pay that makes their tax rate very high. I disagree, FICA is a forced retirement program that is a savior of the poor in retirement. Most poor would never save anything for their retirement and end up living a squalid existence if they weren't forced to pay into their retirement program.
  Personally, We have had many years with income between $80k and $105k, broke down into, about $70k wages and the rest dividend/interest income. Yet, we only pay 2% to 4% in federal tax on my total income. I take full advantage of two SEPS, an HSA and College tuition credits. I do pay 15.2% into FICA and medicare. (no deductions to reduce that) We're self employed.

dragoncar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5347 on: June 27, 2018, 10:33:37 AM »
To be more precise: Direct taxes are deducted from the income.  The resulting adjusted income is then taxed.  This normally results in a lower tax payment.  The system is rigged but given that it is graduated upward with income it begs the questions against whom is it rigged?  The poor, the middle or the rich?
It would be interesting to see which income levels are paying the highest effective tax rate. I would guess that upper middle class is getting squeezed the most. My thought being that they are paying high income taxes while the rich are more likely to gain from the concept of capital gains taxes. The lack of payroll taxes above ~120k is also huge.
The poor pay the highest taxes compared to their income if you include all that stuff that is in the price of the necessary basic living expenses (sales tax for example) - or in other words, they pay the most taxes of income-% for just living.

The middle middle class pays the most percentage in regards to working income.

The higher middle class already pays less % because they have a greater capital gains percantage of their income, but already good tax evasion advisors.

And the richest pay the lowest % of their income as taxes.

It is as Warren Buffet likes to say: He pays less taxes (%) then his secretary.

And that is not even touching the topic of inheritances.
I'd like to see some test cases run with specific numbers to support the claim that the lowest-income folks pay the highest taxes compared to income.  In addition, it's not even as simple as including taxation on all levels--if we're concerned about "fairness," we must also take into account all the other government programs in place to help the poor.
It always comes back to your personal philosophy regarding wages vs dividend/interest income. If you think dividend/interest income should be taxed different than wages, then you see that the rich pay much higher percentage in taxes.
  If you think dividend/interest income should be taxed the same as wages then the rich pay a lower percentage in taxes. Of course individuals very, some have lots of dividend/interest income, other high wages.
  I like the special tax treatment of dividend/interest income. even though our average inflation adjusted income has been about $71k.
  And then some people consider FICA a tax the poor pay that makes their tax rate very high. I disagree, FICA is a forced retirement program that is a savior of the poor in retirement. Most poor would never save anything for their retirement and end up living a squalid existence if they weren't forced to pay into their retirement program.
  Personally, We have had many years with income between $80k and $105k, broke down into, about $70k wages and the rest dividend/interest income. Yet, we only pay 2% to 4% in federal tax on my total income. I take full advantage of two SEPS, an HSA and College tuition credits. I do pay 15.2% into FICA and medicare. (no deductions to reduce that) We're self employed.

Definitely agree about FICA.  It may not have the greatest returns, and thus some portion could be considered tax, but the predicted benefits seem like a pretty fair return on investment (this ignores the effect of potential reforms in the future, and I say seem because I realize itís not an actual investment, it just acts like one). 

People who say the FICA cap should be raised seem to miss this point.  Unless the way social security is changed, the rich will still get increased benefits from their increased payments.  Yes, the benefit increase is progressive in that it goes down the more you pay in, but itís still positive.  I wonder if people who want to raise the fica cap also are suggesting a new tier of reduced benefits or a new regime where the rich donít receive benefits on additional fica taxes.

Iím biased coming from an upper middle/upper class income, but I personally agree with others that the middle/upper middle class are the ones really squeezed under our tax regime and the poor/upper upper do fine.  Iíd much rather leave social security alone and fund any shortfall with general tax receipts, and you can fight abough the best way to increase tax receipts most likely from the upper/ultra classes.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5348 on: June 27, 2018, 11:04:15 AM »
Everybody thinks the upper class starts at 20% annual income above their own.

dragoncar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #5349 on: June 27, 2018, 11:59:36 AM »
Everybody thinks the upper class starts at 20% annual income above their own.

Naw, itís at least double