Author Topic: most overrated HCOL area  (Read 17078 times)

SKL-HOU

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2018, 02:49:08 PM »
How/Why do some of you hate Chicago?? I LOVE Chicago despite the weather! I have visited maybe 30 times, unfortunately never lived there but I am strongly considering moving there in a few years. What is there to hate?

If all I did was visit a few times, I think I'd like Chicago too.

I have visited more than "a few times". Do you mean LIVING in Chicago vs visiting?

mathlete

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #101 on: October 22, 2018, 03:45:26 PM »
A few posts mentioning crowding. The problem is always other people. :)

The problems and costs of LA and SF are glaring. But to me, the benefits are so obviously self-evident as well. I live in a pretty affluent but affordable suburb. It's an excellent place to pursue FIRE, but I consider it to be cultural wasteland pretty much. Chain restaurants, strip malls, McMansions, and not much in the way of hikeable nature.

I don't think one locale is strictly better than another. But if you live in a desirable place, people will find out sooner or later. You can band together with your neighbors to keep it desirable, but that leads to the cultural wasteland IMO.

And if you think you live in a pristine city that has it all, chances are, those "other people" are going to discover it pretty soon.

montgomery212

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #102 on: October 22, 2018, 04:11:33 PM »
I totally get why some people love Manhattan.  It's not for me, but I completely get why some wouldn't live anywhere else.

For a business person, there is no other place with the same energy.  It's literally the center of world capitalism.  The hustle is really inspiring for someone of this mindset.  You can feel yourself feeding off the energy and drive.  The opportunity in NYC is astounding.  This could be a turn off for some.  To each their own.

NYC also has top tier culture/diversity, tip top tier food from any place in the world, convenience (dont need a car), really neat neighborhoods with very distinct personalities, unlimited excitement/entertainment and variety, and endless landmarks/places to visit.

Again, I wouldn't want to live there, but I totally get it.

I lived there for 10 years and have contemplated going back for more, so I certainly get it. It's the highest level finance work I'm going to get anywhere -- which matters to me being a financial lawyer. And the energy is unsurpassed and the city is built for the convenience of people who work all the time; you can leave work at 10-11 pm and everything is still open in a way that it isn't in any other city whether DC or ATL or wherever.

But then you think about being 35 or 55 and still being on foot bc no car; still hauling your groceries home on foot; shared laundry and you wonder if the energy and the high level work is still worth it. Maybe it is. Best of all worlds is if you are the type who is making 500k-1mil in salary/bonuses; you live the luxury building life with every amenity and delivery service and have the best that Manhattan has to offer. But most can't get there, even ivy league professional types. Many can get to the 200k-300k range and then there are a LOT of tradeoffs. My friends who are choosing to stay ARE living the luxury building lifestyles, have dishwasher, laundry in unit and nice NEW apartments that rival any suburban home anywhere. But then reality is you're saving minimally. If you're in the 200-300k range and FIRE is ever a goal, then you are going to have to live in a nice but "regular" $2000-3000/month apartment which may have a doorman, usually shared laundry, maybe you get a dishwasher if you're lucky. It's all a series of tradeoffs unfortunately.

HBFIRE

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #103 on: October 22, 2018, 05:08:01 PM »
If you're in the 200-300k range and FIRE is ever a goal, then you are going to have to live in a nice but "regular" $2000-3000/month apartment which may have a doorman, usually shared laundry, maybe you get a dishwasher if you're lucky. It's all a series of tradeoffs unfortunately.

Agreed, its pretty much the worst place to live if your goal is early financial independence, very difficult to achieve.  Still, I sort of wish I had experienced living there for a couple years early in my career.  As a part time professional bridge player, I would have loved to play in the Manhattan clubs against some of the greatest wall street minds on a regular basis.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:11:53 PM by dustinst22 »

BuildingFrugalHabits

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #104 on: October 22, 2018, 05:08:58 PM »

Chicago's 2016 Regional Price Parity is 103.8, meaning it is 3.8% more expensive than the U.S. average, which to me is not HCOL.  Median home price in Chicago is $228,500, compared to $1.4M for San Francisco and almost $600k in Boston.  It is a city with city prices, but it is a pretty affordable city.  Obviously there are things that are way above average (namely taxes), but overall I think it's hard to make a high cost of living argument for Chicago.

Chicago is pretty damn reasonable!  I think it's officially out of the running as an overrated HCOL area.  Other selling points are amazing food, four seasons, and access to the one of the largest sources of surface freshwater in the world.  When I visited, it reminded a lot of NY with a mid-west flair.  No place is perfect and I know they have issues with crime but I'm shocked at the low cost of housing vs other large cities. 


wildbeast

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #105 on: October 22, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
I think it would be cool to offer alternates to your pick of the most overrated area.  I admit that I have not toured the U.S. very much and I would find that more interesting.  For those who hate the Bay Area, what cities do you think offer similar benefits at a better price?  Extra points for inclusivity!

FINate

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #106 on: October 22, 2018, 06:08:09 PM »
I think it would be cool to offer alternates to your pick of the most overrated area.  I admit that I have not toured the U.S. very much and I would find that more interesting.  For those who hate the Bay Area, what cities do you think offer similar benefits at a better price?  Extra points for inclusivity!

The idea of "similar benefits" is in the eye of the beholder. Keeping in mind there's never a 1:1 correspondence and so there are tradeoffs for each...

Some of the "larger" cities: Portland OR, Austin TX, Denver CO, Reno NV, Boise ID, Spokane WA, Nashville TN, Salt Lake City UT.

If willing to go smaller: Eugene OR, Bend OR, Tacoma WA, Ft Collins CO, Colorado Springs CO, Flagstaff AZ, Prescott/Sedona AZ, Santa Fe NM.

I'm sure there are many many other smaller cities to consider. Also, I happen to be partial to the mountain west and PNW so these are areas I tend to watch/visit. I know there are great, cheap cities in the Midwest and the South and the Northeast...I just don't know these areas well.

FINate

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2018, 06:41:57 PM »
I think it would be cool to offer alternates to your pick of the most overrated area.  I admit that I have not toured the U.S. very much and I would find that more interesting.  For those who hate the Bay Area, what cities do you think offer similar benefits at a better price?  Extra points for inclusivity!

The idea of "similar benefits" is in the eye of the beholder. Keeping in mind there's never a 1:1 correspondence and so there are tradeoffs for each...

Some of the "larger" cities: Portland OR, Austin TX, Denver CO, Reno NV, Boise ID, Spokane WA, Nashville TN, Salt Lake City UT.

If willing to go smaller: Eugene OR, Bend OR, Tacoma WA, Ft Collins CO, Colorado Springs CO, Flagstaff AZ, Prescott/Sedona AZ, Santa Fe NM.

I'm sure there are many many other smaller cities to consider. Also, I happen to be partial to the mountain west and PNW so these are areas I tend to watch/visit. I know there are great, cheap cities in the Midwest and the South and the Northeast...I just don't know these areas well.

You're right - benefits do differ with people.  The benefits that I get from the Bay Area are as follows:
Diversity  - this is probably the most important benefit
Weather - jobs and weather would be tied for second place
Jobs
Easy access to free or low-cost recreation:  beaches, hiking, Monterey Bay, wineries, etc...  (this was a big benefit when I was younger, say 20's and 30's, and will probably be important again now that we have time to do more fun things)

If we can find something that offers similar benefits at a lower cost, we would definitely consider relocating. 

Would you say that the cities on your list offer these benefits?

I think it depends on the specifics of each. For example, weather. The climate of the Bay Area is a mix of microclimates. Southeast San Jose is very different from San Francisco. And, no, you're not going to find many other places with both mild summers and mild (e.g. above freezing) winters, so tradeoffs are involved. If you don't mind overcast and rain, Portland has a good job market and some degree of diversity. Denver has cold winters but a lot more sun, strong job market, and also fairly diverse. Neither city is as diverse as San Francisco proper. Median home price in both cities as around $400-500k. Almost every place has access to low-cost recreation if you're into outdoor activities - many other areas beat the Bay Area in this category. There's a surprising number of local wineries across the US. Not as good as Napa or Monterey, but also less expensive. And a shit-ton of breweries, distilleries, artisanal cheese producers, and so on.

The website city-data.com is a good place to compare data on different cities.

BuildingFrugalHabits

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2018, 07:04:54 PM »
I googled "Most diverse US Cities" and got this ranking: https://wallethub.com/edu/most-diverse-cities/12690/

I thought this was interesting. Denver, DC, and San Diego all rank higher in overall diversity which factors in socio-economic diversity, household diversity and religious diversity. In my opinion Denver and San Diego have better weather and better access to free or cheap outdoor activities (mountain and beach respectively).  Obviously weather preference is personal.  Boulder has Google and other tech jobs and is very inclusive but not super diverse. 

San Fran ranks very high for cultural diversity which is maybe what you are after.  The best places for cultural diversity are New York and areas outside Washington DC which I can attest to.   
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 07:17:42 PM by BuildingFrugalHabits »

rdaneel0

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2018, 09:54:39 PM »
Boston comes to mind immediately. I don't hate the city, but for how expensive it is versus what you get, IMO it's way overpriced. I'd say the amenities are more on par with a city like Kansas City or Tucson, but the pricing is closer to NYC. In fact, I spent more in groceries in Boston than I do now, and my rent in Boston was the same as here. Apartments are a bit larger in Boston, but the high student population (and amount of college-owned properties) keeps rents artificially high. It's also super f-ing cold, and the subway closes really early and is slow AF.

slackmax

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2018, 03:05:47 PM »
Princeton, NJ.  Lots of 1 percenters here (which is OK I guess, since they probably don't drive much).  But the traffic is horrible. A shack costs a million dollars. Some great restaurants. I guess if you don't have to drive yourself anywhere ("Home, James"), it would be OK.  Nahhh, even a 1 percenter should move to NYC, from here.
More to see and do, and not much more expensive. Maybe even cheaper in NYC. 

HenryDavid

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2018, 06:47:15 PM »
Toronto, Canada. Shitty weather, shitty traffic. Lots of ugly sprawl.
Lots of nice people, good universities, lake is nice.
And Canada, eh? Great place.
But Toronto the city ain’t worth the pain.

HBFIRE

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2018, 06:54:15 PM »
Toronto, Canada. Shitty weather, shitty traffic. Lots of ugly sprawl.
Lots of nice people, good universities, lake is nice.
And Canada, eh? Great place.
But Toronto the city ain’t worth the pain.

Really?  I've only visited, but I found it a really nice city and relatively clean compared to most US cities.  The china town area was really nice.

letsdoit

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #113 on: October 24, 2018, 08:51:55 AM »
plus one boston

LostGirl

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #114 on: October 24, 2018, 11:30:13 AM »
I LOVE the Bay Area, in most of its forms but it is not worth the cost.  As someone who does not work in tech, it pains me to know that we should move.

diapasoun

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #115 on: October 24, 2018, 01:02:41 PM »
I'm on the outskirts of the Bay Area (outside the area proper, but very accessible). I love where I live for literally everything except cost and the sizable homeless population (and I'm not so much upset about the homeless as people or as a "problem" for me as I am about the fact that this city will joyfully spend more on maintaining a literal dirt campsite for people to camp in than they would spend putting the exact same people in market rate housing; our entire policy towards helping people is 5000% borked). Fantastic weather, fantastic hiking, immediately available ocean that I love spending time at, just enough stuff going on that there's things to do but not so much going on that I'm overwhelmed by choice. I have a bunch of friends here and generally enjoy the greater populace in this area. Unfortunately, this is also one of the most unaffordable locales in the entire country, and that -- that I do not enjoy. If it weren't for the cost, I'd never leave. As it is, leaving is always in the back of my mind.

Re: the Bay Area proper -- I like the East Bay, and would move there if Boyfriend ends up with a job up in that area once he finishes his PhD. (I work remotely for the most part, so my commute would not be affected.) The weather is an acceptable variant of the weather where I currently live; there's decent public transit; there's access to nature in the form of the Oakland Hills; I know people there who I adore, and I like the downtowns of the cities in question. On the other hand, I would strongly protest moving to SF or to the South Bay. Downtown SF (the financial district) makes me want to cry, what with the juxtaposition of extreme poverty and the glittering finance + tech world. I like the rest of SF as a place to wander about as a visitor, but have no desire to live somewhere that's pretty much 60 degrees and fog year round and even more insanely expensive than my current locale. I'd rather have easy immediate access to nature, better weather, and slightly cheaper rent than more access to museums or restaurants. As for the South Bay -- there's again some good stuff (good cheap pho and boba, for example, or as I just recently found out, really top notch veterinary care!). However, it's basically a super-expensive suburb, and again would not be an improvement on my current life here.

I generally find that I'm very interested in a lot of northern, cold metropolises (Minneapolis/St Paul, for example) in terms of everything except for weather. I grew up in the northeast and I hate cold weather; it can be genuinely painful for me, even in proper attire, and I definitely get some amount of winter SAD. It's kind of ridiculous how much the weather here keeps me where I am.

Erica

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #116 on: October 24, 2018, 09:16:20 PM »
so many SF Bay area , California haters - just dont ever come here ever, and if you hate it here, just get the out now, less people like you 'round here, 'k. lol . Actually, with no traffic my east bay commute on 80 through Berkeley is 15 min., with traffic, it's 30 mins. - please stay out/ get out now, that's extra 15 mins I could be playing Pokemon Go, lol
Relax. It's a free country

Just Joe

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #117 on: October 26, 2018, 10:49:17 AM »
I totally get why some people love Manhattan.  It's not for me, but I completely get why some wouldn't live anywhere else.

For a business person, there is no other place with the same energy.  It's literally the center of world capitalism.  The hustle is really inspiring for someone of this mindset.  You can feel yourself feeding off the energy and drive.  The opportunity in NYC is astounding.  This could be a turn off for some.  To each their own.

NYC also has top tier culture/diversity, tip top tier food from any place in the world, convenience (dont need a car), really neat neighborhoods with very distinct personalities, unlimited excitement/entertainment and variety, and endless landmarks/places to visit.

Again, I wouldn't want to live there, but I totally get it.

I lived there for 10 years and have contemplated going back for more, so I certainly get it. It's the highest level finance work I'm going to get anywhere -- which matters to me being a financial lawyer. And the energy is unsurpassed and the city is built for the convenience of people who work all the time; you can leave work at 10-11 pm and everything is still open in a way that it isn't in any other city whether DC or ATL or wherever.

But then you think about being 35 or 55 and still being on foot bc no car; still hauling your groceries home on foot; shared laundry and you wonder if the energy and the high level work is still worth it. Maybe it is. Best of all worlds is if you are the type who is making 500k-1mil in salary/bonuses; you live the luxury building life with every amenity and delivery service and have the best that Manhattan has to offer. But most can't get there, even ivy league professional types. Many can get to the 200k-300k range and then there are a LOT of tradeoffs. My friends who are choosing to stay ARE living the luxury building lifestyles, have dishwasher, laundry in unit and nice NEW apartments that rival any suburban home anywhere. But then reality is you're saving minimally. If you're in the 200-300k range and FIRE is ever a goal, then you are going to have to live in a nice but "regular" $2000-3000/month apartment which may have a doorman, usually shared laundry, maybe you get a dishwasher if you're lucky. It's all a series of tradeoffs unfortunately.

We have visited NYC as recently as this year. Amazing place to visit. I can't imagine living there. Those apartment prices are 3.5 times our mortgage on a 3 bed/2 bath home with all the creature comforts, two car garage, excellent school 2 miles away, bikable town, with peace and quiet at night. No worries about crime. When we want local culture and good food we drive 20 mins/bike 35 minutes across town (ebikes are nice on the hills) or hop on the interstate and visit the big city next door for some of the best music and food in the country. And we're home again with an hour drive. Or spend the night in there.

Big cities like Chicago and NYC are so interesting but at the same time SO difficult to function in. Expensive too. Dinner during our visits could run four times more what the same dinner might cost here.

Cheers from flyover country. Maybe we need a thread about best LCOL areas?

Unique User

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2018, 11:50:02 AM »
I think it would be cool to offer alternates to your pick of the most overrated area.  I admit that I have not toured the U.S. very much and I would find that more interesting.  For those who hate the Bay Area, what cities do you think offer similar benefits at a better price?  Extra points for inclusivity!

Raleigh/Durham.  I've lived in several different areas and really love the Triangle.  Lots of green space, well paying high tech/banking/life sciences jobs, 3 universities all within 1/2 hour, relatively inexpensive housing, traffic is nothing compared to other areas, the list goes on. 

BuildingFrugalHabits

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #119 on: October 28, 2018, 09:22:54 AM »

Cheers from flyover country. Maybe we need a thread about best LCOL areas?

That's not a bad idea. Or at the very least, would you mind posting your general location for others to see?

BuildingFrugalHabits

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Re: most overrated HCOL area
« Reply #120 on: October 28, 2018, 09:30:26 AM »
I think it would be cool to offer alternates to your pick of the most overrated area.  I admit that I have not toured the U.S. very much and I would find that more interesting.  For those who hate the Bay Area, what cities do you think offer similar benefits at a better price?  Extra points for inclusivity!

Raleigh/Durham.  I've lived in several different areas and really love the Triangle.  Lots of green space, well paying high tech/banking/life sciences jobs, 3 universities all within 1/2 hour, relatively inexpensive housing, traffic is nothing compared to other areas, the list goes on.

If there's plentiful high paying jobs, Raleigh sounds like a great place to build the stash... maybe the one of the best cities in the country. 

Looks like their housing market is strong but remains affordable with a median home price in the mid-200's
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article193700644.html