Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents

[Skyhigh]

My parents are on the verge of being financially destitute. They blew their security in retirement on what I believe to be selfish endeavors. Now they are looking to my brother and I to support them. They have frugal choices that they could make to salvage some of their resources but they refuse. My guess is that they are too embarassed. Between the two of us my brother and I have 9 young children to care for. We are doing the best we can to plan for their futures but if we had to endure the open ended financial devastation our destitute parents could cause it could endanger their future college plans as well. Not only are my parents broke but they are in failing health too. I image they would like for one of us to quit our employment activities to drive them to endless doctors appointments and the like. They are fairly young too, early 70's. They could live for another 10-15 years.

I really don't know what to do here.

Skyhigh

[jprince7827]

That whole help-yourself-first thing in the air planes when the oxygen masks drop applies here. Then there is the second rule: Help your kids next.

Parents are third. If you can't see yourself setting up your future and your children's with them hopping along, then you've got a difficult discussion ahead of you. You've got to tell them no, and explain that it's for their grandkids, and if they truly care about their family they'll understand.

Personally, I'd rather die of cold over a winter after my heat was turned off, alone in my house, than endanger my grandkid's financial future because I made mistakes in my life. That's my job as the oldest member of a family: Die to conserve resources if needed for my progeny.

However, I don't plan to run out of money in old age. ;)

[Paul der Krake]

They have frugal choices that they could make to salvage some of their resources but they refuse.

Any chance of them seeing to reason if you and your brother sat them down and nailed the sales pitch?

If not, live and let live. If they live in a first world country, they'll be fine.

[mxt0133]

There are a wide variety of attitudes for taking care of the elderly in every culture.  In the US we have social security and a welfare system.  I come from a third world country where financially destitute means you don't know where your next meal will come from.

In the US there is social security, food assistance, SNAP, Section 8 housing, Medicare and Medicaid, even free cell phones and assistance for home heating.  What I am trying to get at it that you can help your family in a variety of ways other then financial.  You can help them get services and assistance and all it would take is some time on your part.  Sometimes all people need is a sympathetic ear and some positive reinforcement.

Where there is a will there is a way, I think your parents can still live a comfortable and safe life without you and your brother's financial assistance.

[driftwood]

My parents may be in a similar situation soon, depending on how much longer both of them can work as they age.  My parents aren't really irresponsible with money, but they've never been good with it or with planning.  What I would do with my parents if they were looking to me for support:

I will never cut a check to them for them to use as they see fit.  This leaves them to live with their bad habits as I pay them and reduce my own ability to be FI.  If they were destitute:

1. I would, however, buy/rent (totally depends on other factors) a house that can fit my spouse and two kids as well as them.  We would provide housing/food/toiletries.  If they couldn't work we could swing clothing (thrift store).  Transportation to/from medical appts would have to be based on need at the time, too hard to predict right now.  The support I would provide would come in Mustachian style, and if they didn't like it they'd be free to leave.  They would also have to move around with me until I retire from the military.  No allowance, not providing a car, cell phone, etc.

2. I have 5 other siblings so they might be able to contribute enough to make the costs of added food/housing space negligible. Not a guarantee, but this could help some.

Though I probably sound very curt as I write this, I would offer this to my parents lovingly, and look forward to the years we could spend together (I've been geographically separated from them since I joined the military in 2001, so we could use some time together again).  They would both probably enjoy not having to be responsible for many of the things we could handle, and they would both contribute to our household.  My mom can sew anything, and my dad can fix/build anything. 

[Skyhigh]

I hope they will have government assistance. Ironically they retired young and do not have much paid into SS. They were doing well with their investments until the boredom set in. They talk about how in the TV show the "Waltons" the eldrly parents lived with the kids. I have to remind them that on that show the grandparents were the ones who owned the house and business. The next two generations actually lived with them.

[deborah]

It is very usual in my generation to look after elderly parents, as it was in theirs. They are "only in their 70s". When I was at school, the average lifespan was 68, and it almost certainly was when they went to school. I would feel quite callous if I  left my parents with less support than I give them, but their problems are health rather than money. There is always the issue of how much support is right, or enough - and my parents are always suggesting that I do too much, and they don't want to put me out - especially as I live so far from them. But they also say that they don't know where they would be if I didn't give them the support I do.

If your parents looked after their money well until recently, they may have some sort of cognitive degeneration - whether permanent (like dementia - they are the right age for it to start showing), or temporary (the elderly often have insufficient vitamin D and various other vitamins that can cause signs of cognitive degeneration). In any case, it is worthwhile checking that there are no health factors underlying this. I am sure you would be quite distraught if there were.

[iwasjustwondering]

My parents are on the verge of being financially destitute. They blew their security in retirement on what I believe to be selfish endeavors. Now they are looking to my brother and I to support them. They have frugal choices that they could make to salvage some of their resources but they refuse. My guess is that they are too embarassed. Between the two of us my brother and I have 9 young children to care for. We are doing the best we can to plan for their futures but if we had to endure the open ended financial devastation our destitute parents could cause it could endanger their future college plans as well. Not only are my parents broke but they are in failing health too. I image they would like for one of us to quit our employment activities to drive them to endless doctors appointments and the like. They are fairly young too, early 70's. They could live for another 10-15 years.

I really don't know what to do here.

Skyhigh

I'm sorry SH.  My parents are in a similar situation, although they would probably send themselves off on an ice floe before asking for money from their kids.  It's hard, because they really did try to do the right things.  They just didn't quite make it.  They are always telling me not to worry about saving money for my kids' college, that somehow it will all work out.  But honestly, it didn't all work out when it was time for me to go to college, and retirement isn't all working out for them. 

Right now they are spending 10% of their savings every year, and that %age will only increase every year.  They are in their early 70s.  They have a condo, with $100K in equity and a $200K mortgage.  Clearly, they need to sell the condo.  If they had paid it off a few years ago, they would be so much better off right now.  I do feel an obligation to them, specifically b/c they bought a 3BR condo because I was a struggling single mother with two kids at the time, and they wanted a place where I could live if I got desperate.  Ugh.

[Skyhigh]

I understand that mental issues can cause poor decision making. My parents have been retired for over 30 years now. Their poor decisions pattern started long before. Even if they were proven that they had a medical condition that caused their situation should that change my position? Two aging people with failing health can sink even the most ardent financial plans. My brother and I have small children to care for our plates are full. Besides that we have in laws that would be expecting a retirement package as well.

Skyhigh

[Zamboni]

SH, this is a tough situation, but it sounds like all you and your brother can reasonably offer at this time is some advice on lifestyle changes they can make right now and then assistance helping them find the resources they need once they really are completely destitute (assuming that you are in a country with a social safety net with things like food stamps, etc.)  If you can see changes that would stave off the destitution, and you suggest those changes but they are unwilling to make any of those changes, then there's not much else you can do. 

If you don't want them to move in with you for whatever reason, then they can't move in with you.  Period.  I feel where you are coming from since I love my parents but I have one parent who will never move in with me.  It doesn't mean I don't love that person, but I have valid reasons for never wanting to live in the same house.   

I wish you luck in managing their expectations and suspect I will face the exact same dilemma with one of my parents.

[surfhb]

Whatever the case may be I will make sure my parents have a roof over their heads.   I mean, what is there to do?  Let them go homeless?

[MikeBear]

I understand that mental issues can cause poor decision making. My parents have been retired for over 30 years now. Their poor decisions pattern started long before. Even if they were proven that they had a medical condition that caused their situation should that change my position? Two aging people with failing health can sink even the most ardent financial plans. My brother and I have small children to care for our plates are full. Besides that we have in laws that would be expecting a retirement package as well.

Skyhigh

You could at least take some time to make some calls/send some letters and try to find out if there's any government assistance that applies to them. It's a bad situation all around, but that shouldn't mean you just leave them to possible suffering when there may be help available that they can't find themselves due to whatever reason.

[former player]

Assuming they live in a developed country with a social security safetynet, I would be a lot more concerned about the failing health than the lack of money. Early 70s and reasonable health translates to each getting a low-level part-time job and living modestly with whatever can be added in the way of pensions, social security and government help on housing, etc.

Failing health is a whole different ballgame of needing monthly, weekly and daily practical help.

It is good that you and your brother are on the same page here.  You need to research what your parents' needs are now and in the next few years, find out what is available to your parents from sources other than family (social housing, social security, local employers who hire older people, charities which provide financial and other support such as social groups). I'd suggest you and your brother write a joint letter to your parents setting that out to them.   Then say that your parents' grandkids are your focus for the next X years (until the youngest leaves for college), but after that you will start to have some time, and perhaps a little money, to provide support to your parents.

The point is to try to get them to face up to dealing with their own problems through the next few years while holding out some hope to them of things getting better in the future.  I think it's the best you can do for the moment.  Good luck.

[EconoWiser]

We might find ourselves in the same situation regarding my parents in the near future. They're 63 and 61. They're entrepreneurs. In The Netherlands your employer automatically pays for your retirement. Entrepreneurs have to do this themselves. As you can guess, they didn't do that. They're spendthrifts (from my point of view) as in: every time there's a chunk of money it will go towards a new(er) car, a new kitchen and so forth. My father especially is an impulse buyer, he bought an electric scooter on a whim for example. He's used it about ten times. The worst part is they remortgaged their home in order to invest in their business and make stupid purchases. So now they're stuck with a €290.000 mortgage. Now that there are grandkids they want to retire, because they are working like crazy. I'm thinking: you haven't got anything to retire with... Social security will only kick in at age 67 and is only €650 per person per month. So my mum will be 69 when my dad will get ss. They want to sell their business...but I really don't see any opportunities there. If they do manage to sell, it won't be enough to pay off their mortgage. Which I'm sure they would consider anyway, because they would spend a huge chunk on shit. I did manage to convince them to start paying off their mortgage. They paid off 10.000, so they're now stuck with 280.000.
They won't be able to keep up their lifestyle in the future. And it seems me and my brother are worried about that, but they aren't. We keep warning them.
Sad thing is that they would like to see more of their grandkids...but can't because they're always working.
But what will happen if their health deteriorates or one of them passes away? They'll go bankrupt, we don't see any other option. They'll lose their home and will have nothing left.
In the meantime they keep on spending money on shit we think they don't need.

So, what to do when shit hits the fan?

Well, I am definitely not going to support them financially. I am not going to give them money, because I would hate to see that squandered on shit. I would buy them groceries and arrange things like help for them and of course help out myself.

At least they're a great example of how I'd not want to end up and I've learned a lot from that.

Don't know whether this helps, but it's my view on things.

[Poopsio]

Similar situation in family. Don't help them out. If they're approaching S.S. age and still could possibly work, they don't need your help. You're doing yourself and your kids a disservice.

Gift as much as you want but don't feel obligated to. You absolutely don't have to.

The safety net may be for people who at that age can't work but it works just as well for people who can't control their spending. Believe me, I know, I saw it firsthand...

[Zamboni]

Medicaid will pay for home health workers and caregivers hired from private firms such as Synergy Homecare, but it is almost always the adult children who make the arrangements for this.  That is something you could look into if they are in that program.

I'm not sure what kind of resources there are in your area for elderly health appointment transportation.  Perhaps someone at the United Way or similar aid agency can point you in the right direction?  Obviously you or your brother quitting your job to ferry them around is not realistic given your other obligations.

Whatever the case may be I will make sure my parents have a roof over their heads.   I mean, what is there to do?  Let them go homeless?

That is not something I will let happen either, because all it takes is being very poor and then filling out the forms (or having someone do it for you) to get into the section 8 program.  Much of the section 8 housing around here is quite decent and certainly clean and dry.  I know so much about that because of my interest in landlording, so I know exactly how much rent the program will pay in this area for a single person or a couple and what type of housing one can secure for that rent; even most of the brand new complexes here take the vouchers.  Section 8 housing is not "the projects" around here, although I'm sure that varies by location.  My Mom especially would have a fit about it just in principle, but sometimes all you can do is help someone fill out the form.  An adult child with enough resources might consider the possibility of purchasing a small house or condo and letting them live there rent free, but it sounds like that is not OP's situation.   

At least they're a great example of how I'd not want to end up and I've learned a lot from that.

Word. 

[golden1]

My mother is in this situation (my father passed years ago).  She didn't save anything for retirement and is now living a very Mustachian life, but not voluntarily.   She lives in section 8 housing, and relies on SS disability.  I have helped her in the past when it comes to medical issues, paying for prescriptions that medicare can't cover, driving her places that she needed to go when she didn't have a car etc...and I will occasionally throw her some cash, but small amounts.  My biggest fear is when she gets to the point where she can't physically live on her own.  She is only 68, but is in poor health already.  I can't imagine having her live with me, and tbh, I don't think she would like it.  She is a very private person. 

[golden1]

I forgot to add, my view is that my 2 kids come first before anything else.  My mom also agrees with that. 

[Terrestrial]

Tough situation...not one I am likely to face in the future, but I think personally I would try and do what needs to be done to make sure they are not out on the street.  I honestly don't know if my view on this is impacted by the fact that my parents have always been extremely financially responsible, did without alot of stuff for themselves to make sure their kids had things, and gave me a great upbringing despite being relatively modest wage earners, so if they did fall onto hard times it would likely not be through any irresponsible actions, thus me feeling like I would really want to help and I'm sure my sister feels the same.  If they had always blown all their money I'm not sure I would feel as strongly about helping so I don't think there is a blanket 'right answer'.

This doesn't mean cutting them checks necessarily, since you don't seem to think they would  be responsible with the money or that it would solve their problem as anything more than a temp band-aid.  Is your (or your brother's) house large enough that they can move into a bedroom (even if this means your kids have to share rooms or something, perhaps slightly inconvenient but not devastating to their futures)...if your parents are good grandparents perhaps your kids will even enjoy it.  Whichever brother doesn't have the parents move in can contribute a little money to help out and balance the load.

That's probably the route that I would offer that is also the least financially impactful to you...it really doesn't increase your fixed costs all that much, no additional rent/mortgage, minimal extra utilities.  They probably have enough or will get enough SS that it can at least pay for their own food and hopefully the bus or some ride service to medical appointments.  I'd offer that, along with the caveat that they need to sit down and start to form a longer term plan with you.

I wouldn't quit my job, frankly it's silly they would even suggest that, that helps nobody.  Perhaps whoever said they may be having mental healthy issues is on to something and it's worth further investigating.  If they had always been decent with money up until relatively recently that may be a strong sign.

[Penny Lane]

I'm sorry for your very tough situation, SH.  If there is anything to avoid crisis, it's always preferable to having to triage a disaster, but many older folks will not change their current situation.  Do they own a house?  If so, it may be possible to get them into one of those complexes which provide everything from independence to skilled nursing, usually one meal a day for those who are independent or in the assisted living side.  Especially if you can find a nonprofit one.

My parents planned to go into such a facility, well-known to them, but they waited too long and then dad had a fall from which he would never recover.  So, crisis time.  To get them there, I lent the initial buy-in $ and was repaid when their house sold. 

[Skyhigh]

Thank you for all your kind reply's.

I have put together a plan at my mothers request. a year ago she gave me all her bank statements and financial information. They own a home. I even found a government subsidized housing situation, but when the time came she did not do it. She gave me all that information because I think she was hoping for a different solution. I gave her the application for the subsidized housing, but she will not fill it out and I can not legally do it for her. It can take two years but I can not even get her on the waiting list because she is too proud to sign the silly application. I could fill it out. They have about one year left according to their current financial burn rate. I know my mom, one day she will call out of the blue and declare that she does not have the $250 for her medication that day and that the home is being foreclosed from that day forward our parents will try to become my brothers and my problem. My brothers plan is to dissolve as a family and re-constitute ourselves under assumed names in a different part of the country. (His joke, but half serious.)

There seems to be some status among their generation of family members to claim that they are being supported by their loving children. It just does not make any sense at all. I know that my mother dreams of living with one of us but they can't for various reasons. I read a lot about others in this situation in America. As people age they are living much longer and are not prepared to make it 30 years in retirement. It most likely will be a national problem.

Skyhigh

[Sarita]

There are a wide variety of attitudes for taking care of the elderly in every culture.  In the US we have social security and a welfare system.  I come from a third world country where financially destitute means you don't know where your next meal will come from.

In the US there is social security, food assistance, SNAP, Section 8 housing, Medicare and Medicaid, even free cell phones and assistance for home heating.  What I am trying to get at it that you can help your family in a variety of ways other then financial.  You can help them get services and assistance and all it would take is some time on your part.  Sometimes all people need is a sympathetic ear and some positive reinforcement.

Where there is a will there is a way, I think your parents can still live a comfortable and safe life without you and your brother's financial assistance.

+1.  I think one has an obligation to provide time to help them access services, but not money.  I am so sorry that you've been put in this position.

[CarFIRE]

That whole help-yourself-first thing in the air planes when the oxygen masks drop applies here. Then there is the second rule: Help your kids next.

Parents are third. If you can't see yourself setting up your future and your children's with them hopping along, then you've got a difficult discussion ahead of you. You've got to tell them no, and explain that it's for their grandkids, and if they truly care about their family they'll understand.

Personally, I'd rather die of cold over a winter after my heat was turned off, alone in my house, than endanger my grandkid's financial future because I made mistakes in my life. That's my job as the oldest member of a family: Die to conserve resources if needed for my progeny.

However, I don't plan to run out of money in old age. ;)

Spot-on, Prince.  I have seen this with other folks parents.  They are the first generation to inherit their parents money, blow it, blow their own, plan badly, then suck money out of their kids.  Truly morally reprehensible behavior.  I believe this stems(in the US anyway) from a culturally created entitlement disorder.  Sorry the OP's parents are too "proud"  to cut back, but tough sh!t!  They didn't earn the right to be proud.  They should be ashamed, embarrased, and then suck it up and get to work.  We honor our parents by giving to our children.  Obviously there are circumstances beyond anyone's control that could happen and assistance might be warranted. This sounds self-inflicted.

[ldk]

Same situation here….parents are 68 and 70 year "entrepreneurs" who are still working because they didn't save for retirement OR pay off their mortgage (and as self-employed persons have no company pensions).  We recently convinced them to finally move out of their original family home (complete with swimming pool, obviously) and into a more manageable smaller home.  My husband and I paid for half of the home because, like most of you, we refused to cut them monthly cheques for them to spend as they saw fit, and yet can't sit back and just watch them struggle.  As a result of our help, there is no mortgage on their new home and they will have no access to a HELOC on the property because we are on title, so their access to debt has dried up and they are now FINALLY forced to live on their monthly income.

They are good, loving people who are horrible with money and act like classic "entitled" boomers.  My sister and her husband are heading down the exact same path-- house/large truck/boat/trailer/Harley/snowmobiles/etc.--where I have gone in the exact opposite direction. (We were debt/mortgage free by 36 while raising 2 kids, which is how we were able to afford to help my parents.  Maybe we should have travelled more?!)

Good luck to you….everyone needs to answer the 'what to do?' question for themselves I think.  Though I do agree that whatever it is you do, you should act to protect yourself and your kids first!

[Bob W]

Yes, you have an obligation to your parents.   You are obliged to help them set up a life they can live.    I assume that at least one of them draws $1,200 per month in SSI?   In that case they can qualify for senior housing.   Their rent will be around $200 per month.  They would also qualify for food stamps. 

I think you should refer them to someone at your state senior services agency to get some direction.   

[iris lily]

OP, as a Boomer I support you  in taking care of your children. I am horrified by the accounts here of Boomer finances, but I know it to be true from my circle of friends. So many are STUPID about finances. It's all magical thinking fueling these financial choices, that what they are doing is "normal" or someday it will all change.

I watched a friend blow half a million dollars on dumb real estate choices and a variety of other big ticket stuff. That was her retirement cushion, now she'll be living hand to mouth only she still doesn't see it, she's shopping for 2,000+ sq ft houses in her old age, just one person. Gotta have 3 BR 2 baths. dear lord.

But I have other friends just as clueless and at this point I may have to admit that it's the Boomer sense of entitlement. But also, the Boomers are accustomed to  good luck in living decades where bad financial choices didn't bite you in the butt immediately. Those days are over.

[Skyhigh]

Yes, you have an obligation to your parents.   You are obliged to help them set up a life they can live.    I assume that at least one of them draws $1,200 per month in SSI?   In that case they can qualify for senior housing.   Their rent will be around $200 per month.  They would also qualify for food stamps. 

I think you should refer them to someone at your state senior services agency to get some direction.

My parents retired long ago and therefore do not have much paid into SS. I do not think they receive much of anything from the gov. What is more of a burden is the incidental costs associated with healthcare such as travel expenses, perscriptions, long term care, and a whole host of things I have not even thought of yet. To take on aging parents at any level seems like opening Pandora's box. Just where does it end? Possibly with the caregivers bankruptcy.

I struggle with this issue.

Skyhigh

[RetiredAt63]

This is why I want to make sure my financial affairs are in order.  My DD and I love each other and get along so well because we do NOT live together - we would drive each other crazy.  We both help each other in services, and I expect that will continue. But have her financially support me? No. I got support from my parents, I gave her support, and I expect her to pass that on to her children (if any).  And yes I am a boomer (born 1950), we are not all drowning in entitlement. 

[PloddingInsight]

My parents are on the verge of being financially destitute. They blew their security in retirement on what I believe to be selfish endeavors. Now they are looking to my brother and I to support them. They have frugal choices that they could make to salvage some of their resources but they refuse. My guess is that they are too embarassed. Between the two of us my brother and I have 9 young children to care for. We are doing the best we can to plan for their futures but if we had to endure the open ended financial devastation our destitute parents could cause it could endanger their future college plans as well. Not only are my parents broke but they are in failing health too. I image they would like for one of us to quit our employment activities to drive them to endless doctors appointments and the like. They are fairly young too, early 70's. They could live for another 10-15 years.

I really don't know what to do here.

Skyhigh

You and your brother are both married, right?  Do all four of you (including your spouses) work full time?

My parents are nearing retirement with very little in the way of assets, but I cannot imagine a situation in which I wouldn't be willing to do the bare minimum of:

1) Helping them navigate whatever social services they are eligible for.
2) Arranging their transportation to and from doctors' appointments.
3) Helping with medical costs where absolutely necessary -- with direct payments to the pharmacy or hospital.
4) Providing them a bedroom in my house (& meals) if they are unable to provide food and shelter for themselves.

I understand that you might not be willing to cut them a check once a month to fund a spendthrift lifestyle, but that is not what your post seems to be about.  Remember: Your family are the people that have to take you in when you have nowhere else to go.

[MayDay]

I'm kind of surprised at the number of people willing to take their parents into their homes. The only way I would do that is if my house had a separate in law suite. Living with either my dad or my in laws would be he'll, I'm pretty sure I'd end up in a mental ward. My mom I could probably handle. 

I agree with the train of thought that you should help them navigate social services and pay for emergency medication, but not much else, unless you can do so without significantly sacrificing.  I don't know how the rides stuffworks, perhaps you can take a half day once a month and tell them that is your driving availability, so schedule everything then.

[Skyhigh]

My parents situation can serve as a cautionary tale for other mustachians. They were able to acquire 14 rental properties and retire at a fairly young age. The rest of the family felt that due to their affluence they should take on the less fortunate members of the extended family. It is the way things were done when my mom was a kid. Family served as a financial safety net. When you were down your brothers family took you in and when it was their turn you did the same.  I believe that it was part boredom and part ego but they spent the next 30 years taking on a host of derelict relatives. Some took residence in my parents rental properties and promptly stopped paying rent. All were financial drains. Now my parents are broke and expect that it is their turn to be taken care of however the dead beats are no where to be found.

Ironically my mother donated her time to work for the city to help less fortunate people to acquire government resources. She is an expert on how to get government assistance but will not help herself. It is like she wants to be rescued by relatives as compensation for all the decades of service she blew on dead end family members. My brother and I are the only ones still in audience.

I watched and learned from my parents. They served as good examples of what to do and as a lesson on what not to do. I have built up a portfolio of rental properties and am self sufficient but will not succumb to family pressures. It seems to me that the wild card in financial independence is those we love. Parents, siblings, and children are individuals who are largely beyond our control and have the ability to do great harm to themselves. It can put us in moral dilemma regarding our obligation to throw them a line and possibly drown ourselves in the process. When children are small it is easier to control risk factors. I can see now how that is going to change real soon as they become adults.

Hard to predict future events can easily scuttle ones dreams of financial independence. Often it seems to me that the prudent thing is to keep working regardless of ones ability to stop because you never know what might be just around the corner. Especially those who dutifully save a calculated pile of cash and expect to doll out a measured portion extending into decades. We can mathematically predict an assumed need into the future but one never knows the future variables that could radically change those numbers.   

My parents are too old and professionally irrelevant to work anymore. Extended retirement is an atrophy of the ability to work. Once one becomes self employed it seems to be poison to employers. Perhaps staying marginally employed somehow is a good idea?

Skyhigh

[Skyhigh]

...I even found a government subsidized housing situation, but when the time came she did not do it. She gave me all that information because I think she was hoping for a different solution...

Ugh, this is the most frustrating thing when trying to help someone.  I'm sorry you're going through this Skyhigh.  My parents are not yet at this point, but I can relate to the pride and lack of follow-through when they are having financial trouble.  I think a lot of people seek out help or advice, but what they really want is a solution that lets them keep going forward the exact same way they've been living.  They don't want to change in order to reach their goals, they just want different consequences for the same actions.  It's hard to change, and no one can force change when the other party is not willing.

I wonder at what point the obligation to help ends in this case.  If you do all that work to help them with your time and services, and they don't take the actions they need to make it work, what else can you do?  "Keeping a roof over their head" is a nice, but vague idea.  To me, helping my parents get in low income housing "counts" as much as having them move in with me.  I'm not sure how I'd feel if my efforts/services were rejected by the ones in need... Am I obligated to help in the way THEY prefer or the way that is best suited for my life/money/time?  The first option certainly sounds more charitable, but what if it's not sustainable emotionally or monetarily?  I'd hate to tell my parents "beggars can't be choosers", but they taught me that.

Thanks ChransStache !!

[Zikoris]

I would be fine with either of my parents living with me, provided they contributed something to the cost of a bigger place (the cost difference between my current bachelor and theoretical two bedroom apartment would be large), and were okay with not having animal products in the house. I spend next to nothing on other basic expenses, so feeding extra people would be no problem. I wouldn't give money, but would help with applications for services if needed.

[Catbert]

I think you've gotten lots of good advice which I won't repeat.  I will emphasis that you should not under any circumstances let them move in with you unless you and your spouse are 100% in agreement that you can be happy with that.  I'll tell a story somewhat on point:

I worked with someone whose MIL moved in with him.   He wasn't happy with that but his wife insisted.  (I think they also had a crappy marriage but I digress.)  MIL was a lifelong chain smoker in her mid-70s, with a variety of health issues - he figured how long could she live?  15 years later he was still working, partly to be out of the house, when he dropped dead of a heart attack at 68.  MIL was still smoking and still going strong in her late 80s.

The moral of this story is not to think that you can put up with relatives because you think they'll have a short life.

 

[Terrestrial]

I'm kind of surprised at the number of people willing to take their parents into their homes. The only way I would do that is if my house had a separate in law suite. Living with either my dad or my in laws would be he'll, I'm pretty sure I'd end up in a mental ward. My mom I could probably handle. 

I don't think most people are saying it's the prefered way to live life, or even that it wouldn't be quite strenuous, annoying, or severely impacting of lifestyle.  But most people can also not fund a fully separate residence for their destitute parents, so given the options of: 1) letting them live with you, or 2) letting them be out on the street...yes it seems reasonable to take them in as a last resort.   

My parents gave me a wonderful home to live in and 100% of financial support for 18 years, and further support in one form or another like financial help with college, advice, helping watch my children, for many years since...at a bare minimum do I not owe them a little bit of the same if they need it and I am able?  Will it perhaps delay some financial goals yes, but I look at it in the  context of...how much less time would my parents have had to work if they didn't have me, or even taken to a lesser extent, if they had been crappy parents that didn't ever do anything for me....probably alot.  But as I already acknowledged, I have great parents who sacrificed alot for me, and that I'm not sure I would feel the same about the degree of help I was willing to provide if that were not the case.  I know not everybody has great parents or a great relationship with them and it's fair if that impacts their view of what actions to take.

[iwasjustwondering]

I would take in my parents if I had to, but it could ruin my life.  I spent 14 years in a bad marriage, 8 years raising kids on my own, and I have just now found the love of my life.  At 44 and 52, we are talking about moving in together and eventually getting married.  He has worked hard all his life, and has already raised and educated his kids.  He acts in a father role to my kids already, and does so very graciously.  If I add my parents to the mix, I seriously don't think he would go for it, and I don't blame him.  He's done it.  He's taken care of his elderly parents, his elderly in-laws, and his own kids.  He wants to take it easy.   

[Skyhigh]

I think you've gotten lots of good advice which I won't repeat.  I will emphasis that you should not under any circumstances let them move in with you unless you and your spouse are 100% in agreement that you can be happy with that.  I'll tell a story somewhat on point:

I worked with someone whose MIL moved in with him.   He wasn't happy with that but his wife insisted.  (I think they also had a crappy marriage but I digress.)  MIL was a lifelong chain smoker in her mid-70s, with a variety of health issues - he figured how long could she live?  15 years later he was still working, partly to be out of the house, when he dropped dead of a heart attack at 68.  MIL was still smoking and still going strong in her late 80s.

The moral of this story is not to think that you can put up with relatives because you think they'll have a short life.

Right on Mary !

[Firefly]

Every family is different. It's hard to advise without knowing the family dynamics. We support my mom (well, my parents until my father passed away a few years ago). I brought them here from a different country, so they don't have SS income, but we were able to get them a good housing and we pay for all of the expenses. My mom doesn't need much and is very grateful for the support, although she does feel uncomfortable with the fact that she is burden. She is happy to repay by watching our kids any time. But we have no choice. The way I see it - it's the least I can do for her. She is a reason I am in this country and have a good life. They sacrificed a lot to help me. And it's my time to help her. In my mind - this is how family works. Whoever needs help, the family helps. My husband has the same views. But I do recognize that my situation is rather unique.

[Lia-Aimee]

I'm sorry you're going through this.  If you already have tried to help them in filling out housing applications, and they refuse, then you've done all you can.  They need to make sacrifices first before expecting you to make any.  When they've made all their sacrifices, then you step in.

That said, I think there is another factor to consider: how much have your parents helped you when you were an adult? I do think you owe that back to them. 

[Mesmoiselle]

She won't sign the dotted line until there is no where else to turn. Stand firm, tell her you're not going to provide, then remind her of the wait times for housing. And then don't discuss it with her again. If she calls you to whine,hang up on her. If she brings it up in person,smile and don't speak. If she starts crying, excuse yourself and leave.

Her pride shouldn't cost you your plans for you and kids. It's selfish. Don't put up with it.

[pagoconcheques]

Sometimes the MMM narrow-focus lens on FIRE is inadequate to inform the breadth of real life. 

Your parents raised you, spending roughly 18 years of their lives and lots of resources as well. 

It does sound as if help you provide your parents will have to be measured and controlled, and it will have to be done with a shared awareness of how it affects the rest of your family. 

So, yeah, investigate and exhaust the social safety nets available to your parents, but after that my opinion is that you should help them.  Put conditions on the help if you must. Consider also the precedent you set for your own children as they watch you refuse to help their grandparents. 

There is so much more than money going on here.

[DecD]

We help subsidize my FIL's housing.  SIL's family helps out with $100 every month as well.  We probably assist by about $400 a month.  At some point in the future, he'll be moving into a less expensive place, so our assistance may go down by half or more. 

This assistance is preventing what would likely be a family crisis in the IL's family.  It's worth every penny.  It's important to remember that in the past, he financially supported his children...and gave us a couple of generous gifts of money when he had a lucrative contracting position.  We didn't spend any of it: knowing that his financial situation later in life might not support him, we kept it to give back to him in the future.  Now that future is here, and if we can help him maintain a high quality of life, his dignity, and his sense of purpose, as well as preventing a tricky family crisis based on retirement accounts and an unusual marriage situation, it's beyond worth it for peace of mind and peace in the family.

[Terrestrial]

My parents situation can serve as a cautionary tale for other mustachians. They were able to acquire 14 rental properties and retire at a fairly young age. The rest of the family felt that due to their affluence they should take on the less fortunate members of the extended family. It is the way things were done when my mom was a kid. Family served as a financial safety net. When you were down your brothers family took you in and when it was their turn you did the same.  I believe that it was part boredom and part ego but they spent the next 30 years taking on a host of derelict relatives. Some took residence in my parents rental properties and promptly stopped paying rent. All were financial drains. Now my parents are broke and expect that it is their turn to be taken care of however the dead beats are no where to be found.

Ironically my mother donated her time to work for the city to help less fortunate people to acquire government resources. She is an expert on how to get government assistance but will not help herself. It is like she wants to be rescued by relatives as compensation for all the decades of service she blew on dead end family members. My brother and I are the only ones still in audience.

Skyhigh

I also think it's worth looking at this with a little context too.  Being broke because you helped relatives who then took advantage of you, and spent your life while you had money volunteering to help those who didn't, while perhaps a bit naive/foolish or not great decisions, doesn't seem to have come from a horrible place.  It's not like you wrote that your parents blew all their money on trips to gamble in vegas and yachts and ferrari's and now want a big hand out.  Again, maybe they didn't make the best decisions but they don't seem to have found themselves in this situation by sheer  selfishness.  I'm not saying that it's now your responsibility to clean it all up, just that how someone got to where they are does matter in my book.

I'd be alot more willing to help feed a hungry nun than a junkie laying on the side of the street, if they both had zero money.

[deborah]

+1

OP's original position sounded halfway reasonable, but rather hard-hearted. The more it is explained, the less reasonable and more callus it sounds.

[Sibley]

I'm not there yet, but looking down the road I can see very choppy times ahead. In my case, it's not due to poor financial decisions so much as one devastating event caused by other family and years of subsequent recovery, capped now by early-stage dementia. I'm not sure what extent and form of assistance will be needed/provided, but something will be worked out to take care of my parents. However, getting my house in order first!

[P1]

I have the same problem. My mom is flat broke and I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to let her move in with me pretty much any month now. I have a 1 bedroom apartment with my gf so looks like I need to get a two bedroom, which of course just means more money coming out every month. But I can't tell her no, she has no one else, she's my mom, and I can't let her be homeless. But I'm squeeking by as it is trying to figure out how to get the savings jump started and this extra cost won't help.

[southern granny]

You said that they own a home.  How much equity is there?  Have you considered a reverse mortgage?   I understand you feel an obligation.  I would too.  I am 58 and my husband is 59, and all four of our parents are already deceased.  The last one passed away at 78.  So we never had your problem.  I am however facing a similar one.  I have a brother who has been incarcerated for 6 years.  He will be released in a few months.  I am feeling an obligation to let him live with us until he gets on his feet.  I don't want to have him live with us, but I am not seeing many other options.

[RunningWithScissors]

Supporting relatives is a tough question as it brings up all sorts of emotional and moral issues.  My belief is to stick to the airline safety instruction of  'put your mask on before assisting others'.  So, if providing financial assistance to others fits within your means, then by all means, help away.  I, however, don't believe there's an obligation to support other adults.

Every family is different, but my family tends to give support in non-financial ways.  The financial costs of my Dad's long-term care is handled by my Mom, but there's a family member with him every day.    My Mom is excellent at handling money so I don't anticipate ever needing to support her. 

/start rant
However, I do have a sister who is notoriously bad at money.  Throughout her life she's needed bailout after bailout.  Because of my limited means, I was the first to withdraw my financial support although as a 14 year old I used to give her money on a weekly basis when she was a full-time employed, married 24 year old woman!  One by one the other members of the family have dropped out, seeing that their money went to trips, tattoos, exotic pets and other non-essentials.  We also tried giving her goods such as needed furniture directly, or gift cards, but those were cashed in and spent on more crap.  The final straw was finding out that the money we had gifted to her children, in a trust account that she had control over, mysteriously disappeared.   All in all, my sister blew through over $100K.  Honestly, all that 'help' did nothing.  It was only when we stopped enabling her that she had to step up, grow up and deal.  We three younger siblings are now on the cusp of retirement with healthy investment plans and pensions, while she is still mired in credit card debt with no assets whatsoever.  Once we all retire and she realizes she essentially will never be able to retire, I'm sure there will be wailing and moaning.  /end rant

In short, I'm all about choices and consequences. If I've chosen to live frugally for decades in order to build up my 'stash, that's my choice and I don't expect anyway to pay for spendypants luxuries.  If you've chosen to live outside your means and now can't afford to retire, so be it. 

Having said that, illness or other issues can be a game-changer.  I just don't have a lot of sympathy for self-induced misery.

[Threshkin]

For me, it is simple.  Family is important.  End of story.

If you don't take care of your parents, who do you think will take care of you?  What type of example are you setting for your own kids?

I am amazed an appalled by the callous attitudes posted in this thread.

[MrFancypants]

For me, it is simple.  Family is important.  End of story.

If you don't take care of your parents, who do you think will take care of you?  What type of example are you setting for your own kids?

I am amazed an appalled by the callous attitudes posted in this thread.

Right, but if you follow Skyhigh's posts and kind of try to ignore the others...  he's trying to help his parents by providing information on social programs which exist for just this kind of thing, and he's being rejected.

Family is important, but when family refuses to help themselves out of pride, it would be extremely difficult to not feel resentful.  I think it's totally reasonable to say "if you take advantage of these programs, I'll help fill in the gaps."