Moderation vs Cold Turkey

[poxpower]

So in 2022 I decided to quit playing video games entirely for the year. I spent thousands of hours on video games in my adult life.
So jan 2nd I started playing again, just to see. Learned I cannot stop myself, at all. I don't want to play an hour, I want to play all day and go to sleep at 5am, if at all.

Realizing the same with alcohol and food. Eating a cookie does nothing for me, I have to eat 4000 calories of cookie to feel even remotely satisfied. I find it much easier to have zero cookies then to have just one.

Are other people like that as well? And with what? Did you learn anything about moderation in life?

And on that note: Do you also get annoyed by people who try to draw you into their bad habit/impulse? I'm sure you've had the experience with relatives where you say "no" to that piece of cake and the person badgers you 4-5 times attempting to guilt you into eating it, thinking it's you who's the bad person for refusing a gift. You know that "just this once" syndrome where on an almost daily basis somebody attempts to "just this once" you into over-eating or spending?

[AMandM]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

[Gremlin]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

This.  So much this.

[RetiredAt63]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

Lots of us find this out when we are pregnant.  No alcohol because of baby is not that hard, definitely easier than worrying about one drink here or there.

[poxpower]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

What did you end up doing with the extra time?

[AMandM]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

What did you end up doing with the extra time?

Well, I only blocked them yesterday as a sort of belated New Year's resolution, so I haven't saved enough time yet to say. My daughter suggested I pick something that I will do as a substitute and specifically every time I feel the impulse to go to those sites. Otherwise I'd probably just waste time elsewhere on the internet. I'm thinking about little housework jobs like dusting, or about writing letters.

Oh, and to answer your other question, no-one around me is going to draw me into their bad habits because they're all rooting for me. My sister also said she hasn't gotten grief from people trying to get her to drink, but she is annoyed by the ones who take her personal habit as an implicit judgment about them and start justifying themselves for having a drink.

[ender]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

What did you end up doing with the extra time?

Browsed MMM forum obviously (-:

[Monocle Money Mouth]

I'm pretty bad at moderation with food. All bags of potato chips, regardless of size, are single servings. I try to build some junk food into my life where I don't have to worry about it too much. On Saturday mornings, I'll have a can of Pringles or a box of crackers for breakfast. Then I won't eat again until dinner. I can still indulge in food I like without destroying my health.

I've found as I get older, I don't actually like to binge as much as I did when I was younger. I feel the side effects more acutely. I feel uncomfortably full quicker. I feel weird if I spike my blood sugar. I have a harder time burning off excess calories. I've scaled back my junk food habit considerably. I'm also happy we are past the holidays. There is always so much extra junk being offered. I have a hard time saying no to it.

Somebody also mentioned getting hooked on puzzle games. I've had the same issue. I like playing puzzles, but websites that feed you endless new puzzles are a problem so I stay away from them. Wordle is nice since you can only play one a day. There's a card game called Set that I like to play. The company that makes it lets you play a free online version, but also only offers one new puzzle a day. I've found playing physical jigsaw puzzles is helpful. I have a bunch of 1,000 piece puzzles and I keep one on our coffee table and chip away at it for a week until it's done. It takes awhile to finish, but there is a definitive end. If I like the final picture, I'll leave it out for a week or two before starting another one. It's not as big of time suck as sitting in front of the computer playing puzzle after puzzle.

I also found writing code in my free time helps scratch the puzzle itch. I created a recipe web page for myself a couple of years ago to keep track of recipes I like and any changes I made from the original. It started out as a simple static HTML page. I've turned it into a single page web application where you can filter the recipes by specific recipe or recipe category. Playing around with the JavaScript, HTML, and CSS to make it do what I want to do scratches that puzzle solving itch. It leaves me with something useful when I'm done, and I learn new things along the way.

I moderate food by eating pretty boring and healthy most of the time but then let my self eat with reckless abandon a couple of times per week. I stay away from never ending puzzle websites and substitute it with jigsaw puzzles and coding.

[clarkfan1979]

So in 2022 I decided to quit playing video games entirely for the year. I spent thousands of hours on video games in my adult life.
So jan 2nd I started playing again, just to see. Learned I cannot stop myself, at all. I don't want to play an hour, I want to play all day and go to sleep at 5am, if at all.

Realizing the same with alcohol and food. Eating a cookie does nothing for me, I have to eat 4000 calories of cookie to feel even remotely satisfied. I find it much easier to have zero cookies then to have just one.

Are other people like that as well? And with what? Did you learn anything about moderation in life?

And on that note: Do you also get annoyed by people who try to draw you into their bad habit/impulse? I'm sure you've had the experience with relatives where you say "no" to that piece of cake and the person badgers you 4-5 times attempting to guilt you into eating it, thinking it's you who's the bad person for refusing a gift. You know that "just this once" syndrome where on an almost daily basis somebody attempts to "just this once" you into over-eating or spending?

Some of my family dinners with extended family can be uncomfortable when I am pressured into eating large amounts of unhealthy food. Refusing the food would be rude. My wife and I now offer to make a salad as a side dish. If would be rude for them to refuse the gift of salad, so they typically agree. That has been our compromise.

[AlanStache]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." ...

How did you block them, what tool(s) did you use?

[moof]

So in 2022 I decided to quit playing video games entirely for the year. I spent thousands of hours on video games in my adult life.
So jan 2nd I started playing again, just to see. Learned I cannot stop myself, at all. I don't want to play an hour, I want to play all day and go to sleep at 5am, if at all.

Realizing the same with alcohol and food. Eating a cookie does nothing for me, I have to eat 4000 calories of cookie to feel even remotely satisfied. I find it much easier to have zero cookies then to have just one.

Are other people like that as well? And with what? Did you learn anything about moderation in life?

And on that note: Do you also get annoyed by people who try to draw you into their bad habit/impulse? I'm sure you've had the experience with relatives where you say "no" to that piece of cake and the person badgers you 4-5 times attempting to guilt you into eating it, thinking it's you who's the bad person for refusing a gift. You know that "just this once" syndrome where on an almost daily basis somebody attempts to "just this once" you into over-eating or spending?

Luckily I am decent at moderating a lot of things.  I'm usually a 1 beer a day guy max, often less.  I can limit my cookies, but usually to about 2x what I should, so I limit their availability as best I can.

Buying toys, like bike parts and climbing gear is my weakness.  I solved this problem by paying myself first, so I didn't have money sitting in my bank account burning a hole in my pocket.  For most of my 20's I budgeted miscellaneous spending using cash in my wallet.  It hurt a lot more to fork over half the cash in my wallet than to swipe a card.  It astonished my GF who then became my wife that I often had a few hundred bucks in my wallet, but it built up some good habits to mentally tally up what I was about to spend before I got to the register (often to within a couple bucks for a grocery run).  Once married this was not practical, so we instituted a his/hers/ours system.  Our individual accounts get biweekly transfers of our personal spending money.  My personal account is usually close to depleted, but the zero bound prevents my toy habit from bleeding into the much larger joint household pool of money.  We have never fought over money, as we almost never have to discuss in the first place.  Almost all is either autopilot'ed or our own personal no-questions-asked accounts, and  quick spousal check-in accomplishes the rest.

[slappy]

Maybe I'm rude, but I have no patience for people who try to draw me back into unhealthy habits. No is a complete sentence. It's not rude to refuse food, it's rude of them to try to force it on you.

[poxpower]

I also found writing code in my free time helps scratch the puzzle itch. I created a recipe web page for myself a couple of years ago to keep track of recipes I like and any changes I made from the original. It started out as a simple static HTML page. I've turned it into a single page web application where you can filter the recipes by specific recipe or recipe category. Playing around with the JavaScript, HTML, and CSS to make it do what I want to do scratches that puzzle solving itch. It leaves me with something useful when I'm done, and I learn new things along the way.

That's also the kind of stuff I ended up doing last year.

I found that even though this kind of task might be mostly pointless in the end ( like I made an entire website for no reason https://www.thepoxbox.com/ ) me having to find things to fill my time that aren't tv/games eventually yields some productive endeavors / interesting experiences or at least prevents delaying/deleting necessary things.

Like one thing that's very bad about big addictive time sinks is how it makes your brain delay working out or sleeping. When I'm bored, I look forward to training. When I'm playing video game my brain turns into an excuse manufacturing factory as to why I should train later or stop training to play games, or not stretch etc. etc.

It does that with everything, I find, making it so you only do things at the last minute or when absolutely necessary and at huge cost to your willpower.

Have you found that to be the same?
I hate how video games make me feel about every task that isn't video games.

Maybe I'm rude, but I have no patience for people who try to draw me back into unhealthy habits. No is a complete sentence. It's not rude to refuse food, it's rude of them to try to force it on you.

Yeah offering people junk food nonstop is like trying to get them to smoke with you. "Come on, just one cigarette" lol.

[Monocle Money Mouth]

I also found writing code in my free time helps scratch the puzzle itch. I created a recipe web page for myself a couple of years ago to keep track of recipes I like and any changes I made from the original. It started out as a simple static HTML page. I've turned it into a single page web application where you can filter the recipes by specific recipe or recipe category. Playing around with the JavaScript, HTML, and CSS to make it do what I want to do scratches that puzzle solving itch. It leaves me with something useful when I'm done, and I learn new things along the way.

That's also the kind of stuff I ended up doing last year.

I found that even though this kind of task might be mostly pointless in the end ( like I made an entire website for no reason https://www.thepoxbox.com/ ) me having to find things to fill my time that aren't tv/games eventually yields some productive endeavors / interesting experiences or at least prevents delaying/deleting necessary things.

Like one thing that's very bad about big addictive time sinks is how it makes your brain delay working out or sleeping. When I'm bored, I look forward to training. When I'm playing video game my brain turns into an excuse manufacturing factory as to why I should train later or stop training to play games, or not stretch etc. etc.

It does that with everything, I find, making it so you only do things at the last minute or when absolutely necessary and at huge cost to your willpower.

Have you found that to be the same?
I hate how video games make me feel about every task that isn't video games.

Maybe I'm rude, but I have no patience for people who try to draw me back into unhealthy habits. No is a complete sentence. It's not rude to refuse food, it's rude of them to try to force it on you.

Yeah offering people junk food nonstop is like trying to get them to smoke with you. "Come on, just one cigarette" lol.

I'm usually pretty good about getting the essentials done, but on occasion puzzles distract me from a chore. I'll forget to clean up my dishes after eating something. I think, I'll just clean those up once I'm done, then they're still in the sink when my wife gets home. Or I'll put clothes in the washing machine, then forget to put them in the dryer because I was goofing off on the computer playing a puzzle.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with playing games. The nature of games now means there is often no definitive end to them. Finished a puzzle? Cool. Here's another one.

[PDXTabs]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

This.  So much this.

I agree, and would point to the habit loop as to why. If you want a drink/cigarette/cookie you are reinforcing that desire (next time) by giving in to it.

[AMandM]

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." ...

How did you block them, what tool(s) did you use?

I used the LeechBlock extension on Firefox, specifying that the sites were to be blocked immediately upon any attempt to access them, 24/7, permanently. Now if I navigate to any page on those sites, I get a message saying it was blocked by LeechBlock and there's no option to unblock it, make an exception, override, or otherwise get around it.

[FrugalShrew]

Maybe I'm rude, but I have no patience for people who try to draw me back into unhealthy habits. No is a complete sentence. It's not rude to refuse food, it's rude of them to try to force it on you.

Yeah offering people junk food nonstop is like trying to get them to smoke with you. "Come on, just one cigarette" lol.

And yet, it's so rampant. People often take other people's food choices personally (which I can sort of see if they are offering you something they cooked themselves, but it goes wayyy beyond that).

I am definitely a cold-turkey person, especially with things that are addictive. As many have said, it's just easier when you don't have to think about it! The cookies were a great example, because sugar is one of the biggest areas where I find that moderation is practically impossible for me, but abstaining--after an initial withdrawal period--is super easy for long periods of time.

But I recall reading something years ago (maybe even on this forum?) about how there is a split in the population, with some people doing much better with "abstaining" and other people doing better with "moderation."

[oldladystache]

For me it's food. I tend to eat everything in sight. If there's a box of cookies I can easily eat the whole thing. I tend to check the kitchen frequently. I have a terrible time moderating, but I have been doing a fast day at least once a week with no problem.

[lutorm]

So in 2022 I decided to quit playing video games entirely for the year. I spent thousands of hours on video games in my adult life.
So jan 2nd I started playing again, just to see. Learned I cannot stop myself, at all. I don't want to play an hour, I want to play all day and go to sleep at 5am, if at all.

This only happens to me with Civ... ;-) It's not so much that it's addicting as the "just... one... more.... turn..." effect, the game goes on forever and has no natural stopping point. All other games, or other vices, I have little problems enjoying in moderation. (Not that I have much time playing video games anyway now that we have kids.)

[mspym]

So in 2022 I decided to quit playing video games entirely for the year. I spent thousands of hours on video games in my adult life.
So jan 2nd I started playing again, just to see. Learned I cannot stop myself, at all. I don't want to play an hour, I want to play all day and go to sleep at 5am, if at all.

This only happens to me with Civ... ;-) It's not so much that it's addicting as the "just... one... more.... turn..." effect, the game goes on forever and has no natural stopping point. All other games, or other vices, I have little problems enjoying in moderation. (Not that I have much time playing video games anyway now that we have kids.)

In 1998 I had to uninstall Civ from my pc so I could finish my uni degree. I’ve never let myself get hooked on a game since.

I’ve set daily time limits set on certain timesucks - including MMM - but if that doesn’t work I uninstall or block.

[Log]

I believe moderation is key in many, many aspects of life. But I utterly agree that the right amount of time to spend on solo video-game playing is 0. I’ll gladly pick up a controller and play some multiplayer games at someone else’s house, but I don’t need the stuff in my own house. The way videogames override the desire to do anything else is really destructive.

I’m hesitant to take drinking to 0 because I really enjoy an occasional night of drinks with friends. I’m hesitant to take cannabis use to 0 because it sometimes helps me see something from a different perspective in a meaningful way. For me, those are instances where moderation is preferable to cold turkey.

[partgypsy]

I'm weird. Most things I can do in moderation. Foodstuff wise the one thing I was bad with sugar, I cut it out of my diet for 5 years. I'm back to eating it, but more moderate, since the break. It is def true that completely abstaining from a thing, is easier than reducing.  Where I have issues. Surfing on internet. I don't seem to have an off button. When I read, sometimes can't put book down so I read less. Reserve it for weekends and vacations when I can stay up late reading. Time to put my phone away!

[Metalcat]

I'm a cold turkey kind of person, for sure.

I quit alcohol completely one day and never looked back, I quit coffee shortly after. I don't buy any sweets/snacks that I don't want to eat regularly, I just don't keep them in the house.

If I am going to consume something that I don't want to become a regular habit, I make sure it has a specific context. Dessert is something we have on dates, potato chips are something I have at casual parties, meat is something we only eat if someone else is cooking, the awesome samosas from the place in my building are a Friday night treat, etc, etc.

I make the healthiest habits the easiest/laziest habits by designing my life around them. I never have to choose between unhealthy snack foods vs veggies and hummus, because there's always veggies and fresh made hummus, it's always the easiest snack +/- hard boiled eggs that I just constantly keep in the fridge.

If I'm using an app too much, I do a detox for 6 weeks and retry. If the use becomes excessive again, I immediately do another 6 weeks. If it never naturally feels like a healthy level of engagement, I drop it.

I don't want my life filled with constant decisions of what I shouldn't have or do all day long. I don't like cluttering my daily decisions: I wear the same clothes 99% of the time, I have the same morning routine every day to ensure that I do my PT, electric toothbrush, flossing, and skin care. It's all automated and takes no discipline.

Moderation clutters my decision-making for the day, so I find it taxing and tedious. Whether to use an app or not, whether to eat potato chips or not, these just aren't daily mental real estate that I'm willing to part with.

Everyone is different. For me, routines and systems are easy and mindless, for someone else they're too rigid and restrictive. Each person needs to find what resonates best with them.

[J.R. Ewing]

So in 2022 I decided to quit playing video games entirely for the year. I spent thousands of hours on video games in my adult life.
So jan 2nd I started playing again, just to see. Learned I cannot stop myself, at all. I don't want to play an hour, I want to play all day and go to sleep at 5am, if at all.

This only happens to me with Civ... ;-) It's not so much that it's addicting as the "just... one... more.... turn..." effect, the game goes on forever and has no natural stopping point. All other games, or other vices, I have little problems enjoying in moderation. (Not that I have much time playing video games anyway now that we have kids.)

I had to delete my entire Steam account to get past an addiction to CIV 5.  It's just so unbelievably addicting.  A week later, and I still close my eyes and see myself exploring previously dark territory.

[Pam]

Definitely cold turkey...  I realized years ago that it was much easier to simply pass up the dessert/snack table than it was to have one cookie or one brownie.  Fast forward to 2017 when I had a lot of life changes going on and decided I needed to lose weight (a bunch of weight!).  I had read about intermittent fasting and decided that would work in combination with cold turkey...  So I did not eat at all on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and was very careful about what I ate on the other days.  I told no one what I was doing until at least six months in and when I did tell them they thought I was nuts.  My mantra became "I can eat tomorrow, I can eat tomorrow".  It took a little over a year but I lost 110 pounds and got to a normal BMI for the first time in my adult life.  I have kept most of it off for the past 4 plus years.  I do not recommend this for everyone, but it worked for me.  A side benefit is that it gave me some empathy for people (especially kids) who do not know where their next meal is coming from...  I was doing it because I wanted to and knew I could go to the kitchen or the store and get whatever I wanted whenever I wanted.

[partgypsy]

Wow that's incredible. I'm not going to call you nuts, bc people do have the capability to do (short) fasts. It's a practice many people did voluntarily as part of religious structures for hundreds and hundreds of years. Just that it is very far away from current western culture. Myself I don't think I can do that. But I also notice now that I'm older (and unfortunately less active) I don't need to eat as much as I used to. If I still eat the same, for pleasure, for routine, etc, I'm going to gain weight. So it's something I'm mulling, what I need to do going forward: exercise more regularly, cut some stuff out of diet, or accept being a different shape I've been the rest of my life...

[Metalcat]

Wow that's incredible. I'm not going to call you nuts, bc people do have the capability to do (short) fasts. It's a practice many people did voluntarily as part of religious structures for hundreds and hundreds of years. Just that it is very far away from current western culture. Myself I don't think I can do that. But I also notice now that I'm older (and unfortunately less active) I don't need to eat as much as I used to. If I still eat the same, for pleasure, for routine, etc, I'm going to gain weight. So it's something I'm mulling, what I need to do going forward: exercise more regularly, cut some stuff out of diet, or accept being a different shape I've been the rest of my life...

I've done alternate day fasting. It took me a few months of regular daily fasting to be able to do it, but now I can do it easily. Going a day without food is nothing for me now.

[AlanStache]

I have tried going cold turkey off caffeine and it really sucked, much better to ramp down over a few weeks if possible.  Even going from half a cup of coffee to zero was a jolt.  I have learned that if I dont want to eat/drink it, it I should not be in the house, in the last 20 years I have made like two special trips to go get ice cream but once its is in the house it is consumed in a day or two. 

"bc people do have the capability to do (short) fasts. It's a practice many people did voluntarily as part of religious structures for hundreds and hundreds of years."  -  I think a lot of those involved significant amounts of beer!! :-)  ... but that might make it harder as my nutritional decisions tend to go down hill after consuming alcohol and I would then eat food  :-( 

[poxpower]

I’m hesitant to take drinking to 0 because I really enjoy an occasional night of drinks with friends. I’m hesitant to take cannabis use to 0 because it sometimes helps me see something from a different perspective in a meaningful way. For me, those are instances where moderation is preferable to cold turkey.

Booze definitely makes for some fond memories.
Maybe that's a good way to moderate with it? Only drink in situations that alcohol would make better / more interesting?

Drinking alone is really where you start to have big problems as far as I can tell :O

I quit coffee shortly after.

I thought about doing this but it's like MY ONE THING of the morning I enjoy. But it's like a 1$/day habit too. On the plus side it seems to be good for your health and it helps with intermittent fasting a lot... Why did you stop?

I had to delete my entire Steam account to get past an addiction to CIV 5.  It's just so unbelievably addicting.  A week later, and I still close my eyes and see myself exploring previously dark territory.

Bro with this desert silver start you gotta go Petra.
*Deity AI gets Petra turn 62 on 1 desert tile city*
So anyway next game.

[Metalcat]

I’m hesitant to take drinking to 0 because I really enjoy an occasional night of drinks with friends. I’m hesitant to take cannabis use to 0 because it sometimes helps me see something from a different perspective in a meaningful way. For me, those are instances where moderation is preferable to cold turkey.

Booze definitely makes for some fond memories.
Maybe that's a good way to moderate with it? Only drink in situations that alcohol would make better / more interesting?

Drinking alone is really where you start to have big problems as far as I can tell :O

I quit coffee shortly after.

I thought about doing this but it's like MY ONE THING of the morning I enjoy. But it's like a 1$/day habit too. On the plus side it seems to be good for your health and it helps with intermittent fasting a lot... Why did you stop?

I had to delete my entire Steam account to get past an addiction to CIV 5.  It's just so unbelievably addicting.  A week later, and I still close my eyes and see myself exploring previously dark territory.

Bro with this desert silver start you gotta go Petra.
*Deity AI gets Petra turn 62 on 1 desert tile city*
So anyway next game.

Personally, for me, being sober has taught me that alcohol doesn't actually add anything to fun social nights. They tend to be just as fun or better totally sober now that my brain doesn't depend on alcohol to have fun.

As for coffee, I pretty much ignore the research because it's food research and paid for by the companies who want to find a benefit. No one is funding research to contradict any of the "coffee is amazing for you" research, so I take it worth a grain of salt.

In addition, I have irregular heart rate, so caffeine is problematic. But the main reason I quit was that once I quit alcohol, I didn't want to be addicted to another beverage, and I was VERY addicted to coffee.

My mornings are now more pleasant and more enjoyable without it. It just takes me time to warm up each morning. Coffee forced me through this warm up phase, but it didn't improve my overall state of being or energy. It just sped up my ability to get up and go.

Well, I'm retired, I don't get up and go until I feel like it, so why bother with coffee?

I did add some caffeine back in because I started having some narcolepsy-like symptoms and my MD recommended prescription stimulants, which I thought was kind of like aiming a fire hose at a birthday candle. So I proposed that I titrate up a bit of caffeine first, and it turns out two morning cups of black tea are enough to do the trick.

But I don't get the buzz or feel the same dependence that I did. If I don't have my tea, I don't feel lethargic and awful like I did when I missed my coffee.

DH is still very dependent on coffee and I often find it rather annoying. He will often stop us in the middle of running errands to grab a coffee, or if free coffee is on offer, he can't resist taking some even though he's picky and won't like it. It's such a blatant addiction, it seems silly to watch now.

Like what does he get from it other than chronic coffee breath?? He's perfectly healthy and gets plenty of sleep. His energy levels would naturally regulate themselves. He has no real need for coffee multiple times a day.

It's just silly.

[AlanStache]

I’m hesitant to take drinking to 0 because I really enjoy an occasional night of drinks with friends. I’m hesitant to take cannabis use to 0 because it sometimes helps me see something from a different perspective in a meaningful way. For me, those are instances where moderation is preferable to cold turkey.

Booze definitely makes for some fond memories.
Maybe that's a good way to moderate with it? Only drink in situations that alcohol would make better / more interesting?

Drinking alone is really where you start to have big problems as far as I can tell :O

It has been mentioned elsewhere here in the forums and I 100% agree and intend to follow it, that one should not drink at all at home in the early stages of RE.  Getting in the habit of drinking at home with no outside consequences is not how I want to spend FIRE. 

[Log]

Yeah I think Malcat's approach to junk food is a decent way to approach alcohol. Don't ever keep the stuff in the house, save it for social occasions. Paying for drinks at a restaurant might rub some people's frugality impulse the wrong way, but looking at dollar per drink is the absolutely the wrong measurement. Spending money on alcohol to drink alone at home is a losing game for one's well-being in just about every way, while an over-priced drink at a bar could be a valuable stepping stone to a beautiful friendship.

The best value per dollar is to throw a house party... but that's the answer for when you have an established community and a home suitable for hosting a party. For establishing new relationships and building that community up, the social reality in most Anglophone cultures is that you're going to be meeting new acquaintances at restaurants and bars, not going to their homes right away.

[poxpower]

It took a little over a year but I lost 110 pounds and got to a normal BMI for the first time in my adult life. 

That's amazing, congrats!
One of my big pet peeves with nutritionists/fitness trainers/doctors is they'd recommend slow and steady weight loss combined with some gym/cardio work.

Yeah in theory if you can sustain that, it's the healthiest way to lose weight.
In practice if it has a 95-99% failure rate and your client/patient stays obese their entire life, it's garbage advice and way better for them to lose tons of weight really fast and then work on maintenance.

They'd also mix this advice with "have breakfast" ( horrible advice ) and "eat lots of small meals a day" with all their meal plans being 3 meals a day and two snacks. That's like trying to get someone off meth by letting them have a taste every few hours. Good luck with that.

Like this plan operates on the theory that if you're hungry, that stops as long as you eat something. Hungry? Eat an olive. Boom, not hungry anymore!
I legit saw goofy advice like "oh eat 5 almonds as a snack, that'll keep hunger at bay because of the fats and protein!". Yeah maybe if you're a small rodent?

I think fasting is by far the best way to sustainably lose weight and the regimented nutrition / training is something you build up to and attempt to maintain later on and that takes a lot of willpower, knowledge and habit forming.

And it's also important that people understand that elite athletes struggle with nutrition as well. Read a book on cycling nutrition and one of the pros would just lock himself in a cabin with no food during weight cutting season lol. That dude's job depends on being skinny but strong and he sure as hell ain't doing any goofy "lick a slice of cheese every 20 minutes to quell hunger" nonsense plans.

[Metalcat]

Yeah I think Malcat's approach to junk food is a decent way to approach alcohol. Don't ever keep the stuff in the house, save it for social occasions. Paying for drinks at a restaurant might rub some people's frugality impulse the wrong way, but looking at dollar per drink is the absolutely the wrong measurement. Spending money on alcohol to drink alone at home is a losing game for one's well-being in just about every way, while an over-priced drink at a bar could be a valuable stepping stone to a beautiful friendship.

The best value per dollar is to throw a house party... but that's the answer for when you have an established community and a home suitable for hosting a party. For establishing new relationships and building that community up, the social reality in most Anglophone cultures is that you're going to be meeting new acquaintances at restaurants and bars, not going to their homes right away.

Yes, I long ago realized that making booze expensive was the best way to minimize consumption. If I were to choose to moderate in the future, I would *only* drink by the glass extremely expensive wines at wine bars with sommeliers.

That said, wine tastes like gasoline to me now, so I would never pay large sums for it, because it tastes disgusting to me now.

[wenchsenior]

There's a really clear dividing line for me... if I've crossed over from a pure habit into psychological dependence (as I had on booze back in the day), AND the habit is counterproductive to larger goals and health, then going cold turkey is necessary for me to reset my neurotransmitters re: that behavior.

If it's things where the behavior is more thoughtlessly habit-based, then moderation and/or changing the habit is usually sufficient.

But it's a weird distinction.

For example, I eat dessert every day and am pretty attached to that behavior psychologically (I definitely don't like to skip it). Usually it's a few bites of dark chocolate in some form, or maybe a small cup of good ice cream every week or two.

I don't view this habit as remotely problematic in its current form b/c I don't have any problem limiting my intake amounts, though as I said I would struggle to break the habit of having some sort of end of day dessert.  I don't struggle to not eat the whole chocolate bar. I keep ice cream in my freezer for weeks and don't fixate on it or have the urge to eat the whole pint.

But part of this is knowing myself: If I kept fresh baked cookies in my house that way, I'd be far more likely to eat more than I meant to. So I don't keep those around...very rarely if I'm really craving a sweet baked good, I will go buy one serving.

With booze, it was a bit different b/c of the physically addictive properties. My dependence on drinking was psychological dependence on it as part of my routine in the evening (associated with destressing). I'm not at all wired to be a binge-drinker, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had more than 4 drinks over the course of a single day; I've had one hangover in my life that was beyond a bit of a headache. BUT, booze is physically addictive and thus the body builds tolerance to it over time, so when I was in the habit of daily drinking, over the years my amount would always creep up slowly as my tolerance increased.  So that was a behavior with 2 problematic elements: 1) psychological dependence on an unhealthy substance for (perceived) stress relief and enjoyment of evening routine; and 2) the fact that increasing amounts of the substance were required to get the same experience.

So in the case of booze, cold turkey was necessary to change my habit.

Usually it's easy to tell which approach is required. I usually ask myself: Is this habit counterproductive to my greater goal (health/time management/etc)? If so, let's try moderation.... if that turns out to be difficult and my brain keeps generating excuses for wiggling out of it, then it's clearly time to go cold turkey.

Dessert = baked goods in the house = counterproductive to my goal of limiting sugar intake b/c I would struggle to limit my amounts, but easy to fix by not bringing baked goods in and instead sticking with dark chocolate. Dessert = dark chocolate or ice cream  = helpful to my long term goals of balancing good health and limited sugar with pleasure of dessert, and also easy to limit my amounts. 

[Monocle Money Mouth]

Oh my I could be the OP!! I have a terrible problem with binging on just about anything so have found that total elimination and going  cold turkey works best for me. So I have eliminated many things like alcohol, TV and gaming (really most online activities) from my life completely as well as most food items that I will binge on (mostly sugars, carbs and bad fats).  I still over exercise but, for the most part, have found its not too unhealthy. In all cases my life has greatly improved by eliminating those things and only do very selective "binges" at selected times  - usually binge watching movies (rented or borrowed DVDs) or being online (no home internet or computer just a phone) and very occasional big food binges when travelling solo (motel cake!!). 

So if I were the OP and moderation doesn't work - and in my case moderation is even worse as the desire or craving is worse - I'd try a total elimination of those trigger things. It sounds like that has been successful for you in the past too. I realized I will never be a "one slice of cake person" so not having it or even having it around at all is best for me. Other then an occasional "motel cake" binge that is ;-).

I'll bite. What's the story on the motel cake?

[AlanStache]

I'll bite. What's the story on the motel cake?

spartana: dont answer until mies makes a better bite & cake pun :-)

[RetiredAt63]

Um, I drink alone at home.  Because I live alone, and I like the occasional glass of wine with dinner, or a liqueur after dinner.  But I rarely drink becasue most of the time while I am preparing dinner I think "I would like a glass of wine with dinner" and I forget.  If I got to the point where I wanted a glass of wine every night with dinner and actually did that, I would cut back.  I rarely drink when I am out because I am not out much and I want to be totally sober when I drive.  I had one glass of wine at Christmas dinner, that was my limit.

Re fasting, I have often had an early dinner and then not had anything to eat the next morning until close to noon.  I can see being able to fast a whole day.  What gets me is what do I drink?  I am guessing that anything with sugar in it (like my tea or herbal teas) is out.  Sweeteners are still going to taste sweet and trigger some insulin production.  I can't not drink, I have medical reasons to make sure I stay well hydrated.

[ChpBstrd]

Posting to follow, and to see if anyone has book recommendations on this subject.

I'm working my way through Martin Meadow's Simple Self-Discipline Box Set of six books, which is almost 25 hours of content for just one credit on Audible! It's pretty good too.

[mistymoney]

So in 2022 I decided to quit playing video games entirely for the year. I spent thousands of hours on video games in my adult life.
So jan 2nd I started playing again, just to see. Learned I cannot stop myself, at all. I don't want to play an hour, I want to play all day and go to sleep at 5am, if at all.

Realizing the same with alcohol and food. Eating a cookie does nothing for me, I have to eat 4000 calories of cookie to feel even remotely satisfied. I find it much easier to have zero cookies then to have just one.

Are other people like that as well? And with what? Did you learn anything about moderation in life?

And on that note: Do you also get annoyed by people who try to draw you into their bad habit/impulse? I'm sure you've had the experience with relatives where you say "no" to that piece of cake and the person badgers you 4-5 times attempting to guilt you into eating it, thinking it's you who's the bad person for refusing a gift. You know that "just this once" syndrome where on an almost daily basis somebody attempts to "just this once" you into over-eating or spending?

super similar, although not a gamer.

I can eat nothing but salads and smoothies for months on end and super enjoy it. One serving of mashed potates and gravy and all I want is gravy gravy gravy and any food that gravy goes good on!

I try to plan for large salads with "moderate" sevings of gravy food, or salad for lunch and gravy food food dinner.....or salads 3 days a week and gravy 4 days a week......but it never lasts.....I wake up and realize I haven't had a fresh veg in weeks, lol!

binging TV, board games, wordle, etc. I get a bit compulsive.....Even just being on the internet when I need to turn off and go to sleep....oh it's midnight - oh it's 1 am, oh it's 3:30 a.m, crap! why have I done this!

[mistymoney]

coffee too! Can be caffeine free for a year or more.....then a few coffees and it's a pot a day every day.

[Weisass]

coffee too! Can be caffeine free for a year or more.....then a few coffees and it's a pot a day every day.

It's almost like you know me. This describes my constant experience with caffeine. Easiest not to drink it at all.

[Metalcat]

coffee too! Can be caffeine free for a year or more.....then a few coffees and it's a pot a day every day.

It's almost like you know me. This describes my constant experience with caffeine. Easiest not to drink it at all.

Same. I would quickly be back to being dependent on coffee if I restarted drinking it.

[JupiterGreen]

I'm a cold turkey quitter. But I also don't tend to get addicted to things so it's easy. I drank and even smoked for a number of years then one day I decided each of these things was gross so I quit with no tapering, just quit. Quit eating meat when I was like 14, never looked back etc. We "cold turkey types" can definitely be excessive (at least that's true for me). I think it's more of a boundary thing (how many pretzels are too many anyway...) It's so much easier to say none, rather than give it a number and then have to keep track of that.

[partgypsy]

I've never been addicted to coffee. Maybe because I'm a naturally nervous person, drinking coffee when I'm tired in morning actually feels aversive. I do enjoy the effects of caffeinated tea, it's just right. I do like the taste of coffee (big breakfast, with pie)so I got some decaf coffee. The bags of regular coffee I have gotten as gifts are still in pantry.

[Moustachienne]

"What did you end up doing with the extra time?"  This is a very good follow up question from the OP.  If we quit binging on time wasters like excessive scrolling or screening (TV, Netflix, gaming) what do we replace them with? This is where it gets interesting and challenging to figure out how better to spend our time and frankly, life.  As big as that question is, I just start small by focussing on a few meaningful (to me) things per day.  If we've been spending hours and hours gaming or equivalent, it isn't reasonable to expect ourselves to suddenly replace them all with higher quality activities.  Explore, try things out, just work on tipping the balance over time from low return activities to more satisfying ones. Aim to generally do what gives you the most satisfaction (which will change over time) rather than a person who tries to rigidly "optimize" at all times.

I just blocked reddit and a puzzles site on my laptop for exactly this reason. As my sister said after starting "dry February" last year and extending it indefinitely, "not at all is easy, moderation is hard." Cold turkey means no decision-making, and decision-making is wearying and leaves you less energy for other parts of your life.

What did you end up doing with the extra time?

[Metalcat]

Asking about time is always the wrong question. The question is what do you end up doing with the extra motivation?

Getting bored is necessary for finding motivation.

A huge part of why I'm so insanely productive is that I allow myself to get very, very bored, and that's when I come up with the best things to spend my energy on.

Addictive things eat time and motivation.

Time is easy to fill, but motivation for new things is hard to find.

[ChickenStash]

I really wish I could make either cold turkey or moderation work but I haven't been particularly successful. My issues are with food so outright quitting won't work (at least not for long). Moderation means constantly having to make "healthy choices" regarding ingredients, portion sizes, etc. which can be exhausting but it's the only way it works. I've made it work in the past with pretty good results but eventually fell away. Trying to get back to whatever state of mind allowed me to do it then hasn't been successful lately.

[Metalcat]

I really wish I could make either cold turkey or moderation work but I haven't been particularly successful. My issues are with food so outright quitting won't work (at least not for long). Moderation means constantly having to make "healthy choices" regarding ingredients, portion sizes, etc. which can be exhausting but it's the only way it works. I've made it work in the past with pretty good results but eventually fell away. Trying to get back to whatever state of mind allowed me to do it then hasn't been successful lately.

See I solve this.by taking the day to day decision making out of selecting meals. I meal plan and bulk cook for the week. I have very little option about what I have available to eat, so I just eat that.

It's always delicious, high quality, well cooked food, but there's never a question of "hmm, should I have fish and vegetables tonight or burritos?"

The meals are all made, all pre-portioned, and it's the laziest thing in the world to just pop them in the microwave and be fed with good, nutritious food when I need it.

This make.eating well the laziest, and easiest option possible. If I want something that doesn't match my nutrition goals, I have to go out of my way to cook it or buy it, which is so much more work than just popping a container into the microwave.

[GuitarStv]

I really wish I could make either cold turkey or moderation work but I haven't been particularly successful. My issues are with food so outright quitting won't work (at least not for long). Moderation means constantly having to make "healthy choices" regarding ingredients, portion sizes, etc. which can be exhausting but it's the only way it works. I've made it work in the past with pretty good results but eventually fell away. Trying to get back to whatever state of mind allowed me to do it then hasn't been successful lately.

See I solve this.by taking the day to day decision making out of selecting meals. I meal plan and bulk cook for the week. I have very little option about what I have available to eat, so I just eat that.

It's always delicious, high quality, well cooked food, but there's never a question of "hmm, should I have fish and vegetables tonight or burritos?"

The meals are all made, all pre-portioned, and it's the laziest thing in the world to just pop them in the microwave and be fed with good, nutritious food when I need it.

This make.eating well the laziest, and easiest option possible. If I want something that doesn't match my nutrition goals, I have to go out of my way to cook it or buy it, which is so much more work than just popping a container into the microwave.

This is a great suggestion that has worked for me too for many years.  Couple it with not keeping any snacks in your home so you don't have alternatives to mindlessly munch on and you end up living a very healthy life just by default.