Author Topic: MMM therapy:Philosophical problems about work, home and life (somewhat rambling)  (Read 28106 times)

arebelspy

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Or, to put it differently, arebelspy does not know what he's doing. ;)
https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnhzjP2MemqZDc4/giphy.gif

(The message being, you seems to be doing great already.)

Oh, I know exactly what I'm doing.

I've never had imposter syndrome, and I've almost never thought "I don't know what I'm doing."

What I'm saying is... I don't know what I should be doing.

:)
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milliemchi

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Oh, I know exactly what I'm doing.

I've never had imposter syndrome, and I've almost never thought "I don't know what I'm doing."

What I'm saying is... I don't know what I should be doing.

:)

Maybe "should" is the wrong word. Try "need" instead. For example, I need a strong, healthy family, and I need good friends. This is where my effort goes, consequently, and it's served me well. There's other things I needed, e.g., professionally (be useful), and it's worked out well, too. Perhaps when you look for your deepest needs, you find your vision/mission.

arebelspy

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Hmm, good thought, but I don't think I need anything.  I have no dependencies beyond basic biological ones, that I'm aware of, or can think of.

I do appreciate you guys trying to help me out though--hopefully we'll stumble upon someone's random idea of what works for them and have it work for me.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

shelivesthedream

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My point is, however you want to define vision, I don't know how to go from "nothing" to "vision."  How do I jump start into knowing what I want?

If you want to define it as simple, a few words, whatever... how do I even generate that?

Your explanation gave a different spin on what it is, sure, but not how to come up with it.  THAT'S what I'm stuck on.  :)

Let me get back to you on that one.

I'd like to recommend three book to you, though, if you haven't read them already:
Les Miserables - Victor Hugo (a ripping read but feel free to skim the digressions about sewers and the ENTIRE battle of Waterloo)
The Count of Monte Cristo - Alexandre Dumas (again, a ripping read but the beginning bit in prison does go on a little long)
Essays - Michel de Montaigne (perfect for dipping in and out of)

They all deal with big, philosophical, life-type problems and are also excellent reads. You probably won't get any answers but you seem like you might appreciate them.

shelivesthedream

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Finally: this is why I HATE the obsession in the media/culture with youthfulness. Getting older is the best thing ever.

THIS. It just gives you nothing to look forward to. Every day in every way, according to the "youth is best" narrative, your life gets worse. I can't wait til I'm old. It seems awesome.

The Happy Philosopher

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Finally: this is why I HATE the obsession in the media/culture with youthfulness. Getting older is the best thing ever.

THIS. It just gives you nothing to look forward to. Every day in every way, according to the "youth is best" narrative, your life gets worse. I can't wait til I'm old. It seems awesome.

Something to ponder: Maybe the root of your struggle (you too spy!) is your age. I'm not trying to be condescending but some things are not understandable in your early 20's or early 30's or whenever. Sometimes life just has to unfold. It's like someone who has never had a child understanding what having a drug addicted teenager is like, or somebody who has never been in combat to fully understand war. I'm sure there are things I think I know now or struggle with that will be easy when I'm 50 or 80. When I look back at previous times in my life I come to the conclusion that I would not have been able to understand them without going through struggles that have not yet happened. Whatever vision or purpose you think you have for your life now, I promise you is will be different in 10 years. Maybe not totally different, but different enough. This is why some sort of overarching vision that lasts your whole life is not all that useful, unless you boil it down to something so basic like 'happiness' or 'contentment'. This is probably not comforting but I think this is normal, and sometimes the only way to get through it is to just grind it out and try many different ways.

This is the power of FI. It won't give you the answer, but it will give you the freedom to choose. The problem is, we are not wired to make choices when there are too many. Maybe the achilles heel of FI.

I'll give you guys a book to check out.

The Wisdom of the Enneagram: The Complete Guide to Psychological and Spiritual Growth for the Nine Personality Types
by Don Richard Riso, Russ Hudson

If you are into Meyer-Briggs and personality stuff this will be an interesting read. I find it to be more useful and a very interesting conceptually. It is a great tool for better self reflection and understanding. This book is the closet thing to an aha moment I've had with understanding myself, other than when I  finally totally understood the introvert/extrovert spectrum and what that meant.

arebelspy

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My point is, however you want to define vision, I don't know how to go from "nothing" to "vision."  How do I jump start into knowing what I want?

If you want to define it as simple, a few words, whatever... how do I even generate that?

Your explanation gave a different spin on what it is, sure, but not how to come up with it.  THAT'S what I'm stuck on.  :)

Let me get back to you on that one.

I'd like to recommend three book to you, though, if you haven't read them already:
Les Miserables - Victor Hugo (a ripping read but feel free to skim the digressions about sewers and the ENTIRE battle of Waterloo)
The Count of Monte Cristo - Alexandre Dumas (again, a ripping read but the beginning bit in prison does go on a little long)
Essays - Michel de Montaigne (perfect for dipping in and out of)

They all deal with big, philosophical, life-type problems and are also excellent reads. You probably won't get any answers but you seem like you might appreciate them.

I've read the first two.  I'll look for the third, thanks!

Something to ponder: Maybe the root of your struggle (you too spy!) is your age. I'm not trying to be condescending but some things are not understandable in your early 20's or early 30's or whenever.

That's fine, but whether it's true or not, it's not a good solution.  I should just..wait?  For how long?  A decade?  Two?

Should I be 40 when I try to figure it out?  50?  80?

If I do wait, and then I figure something out, how many years will I regret having wasted?

Quote
Whatever vision or purpose you think you have for your life now, I promise you is will be different in 10 years. Maybe not totally different, but different enough. This is why some sort of overarching vision that lasts your whole life is not all that useful, unless you boil it down to something so basic like 'happiness' or 'contentment'. This is probably not comforting but I think this is normal, and sometimes the only way to get through it is to just grind it out and try many different ways.

This makes more sense than the previous part--naturally it will change.  So why wouldn't you have a vision when you're 20, and 30, and 35, and 50, and...?

The idea of having a changeable vision makes sense.  I wouldn't expect an overarching one that stays the same your whole life.

So saying "you're too young, you don't get it" makes less sense to me than "your vision when you're older will be different than now, and be prepared for that, because you'll have more experience(s) by that point."  I fully agree with that.

But I don't have one at all, and the idea of "just wait" isn't very satisfactory.  :)

I'd love to have a vision for my life, for now, with the idea that it will change.  That's exactly what I'm looking for--not a fixed vision for my whole life, but a vision for my life based on my beliefs and thoughts right now.  But I'm stuck on how to generate that.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
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arebelspy

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Also, I realize I'm sounding quite discontent.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

With all of the above being said: My life is amazing. It's wonderful.  I'm completely happy 100% of the time, and very content.  There is literally nothing I'd change about it, factually.

That doesn't mean I'm doing it right, or know what I should be doing.  I just like to examine things, and strive for better.  I can't imagine things could be any better, but you never know, there's always hope.  Every day is better than the last, and that's largely because of continual improvements, so I'll keep working at it.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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sing365

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I also certainly don't have any of this figured out, but wanted to share some books that have been helpful in thinking about my life vision:

- What Should I Do With My Life? by Po Bronson: not a traditional self-help book per se. Bronson, a journalist, simply interviewed a bunch of people who tried to answer the title question. He then wrote a series of vignettes about those people, who have made a variety of choices and met with varying degrees of "success." I have read this book more than once and simply find it comforting to read about others "on the journey."
- Who We Are by Vincent Deary: Also not a traditional self-help book. Deary is a psychologist-cum-philosopher who writes with a dash of pop culture (e.g., movie, TV references). The book is a rumination on how people change from one thing to the next, and was comforting to me in a time of transition.
- Working Identity by Herminia Ibarra: I've read a ton of career change books, and this is far and away the best. She recognizes that choosing a career path is really about choosing who you want to be (your new identity). She also advocates an experimental/trial-and-error approach to your career, instead of the more typical "do a bunch of soul-searching to find your passion and then make it happen."
- The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey: Ok, this book is not cool by any stretch of the imagination. But as far as I know, Covey is the original proponent of writing, regularly reviewing, and updating a "personal mission statement." He also includes examples. One helpful idea is to start by making a list of the "roles" you see yourself playing in life. For example, parent, child, sibling, employee, church member, soccer teammate, etc. Then you think about who you ideally want to be in each of those roles.

The Happy Philosopher

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I think I'm not articulating my first point clearly. I was not trying to say just wait it out. I was saying that sometimes there are no shortcuts. In part the struggle itself causes the solution. Reading a book, or blog post or whatever may not be enough. I've read a lot, and never found a solution to your problem, only things that may nudge you in the right direction. It's like trying to give someone instructions on how to fall in love...impossible...you just have to do it, and you can't force it, it just evolves naturally.

One of the smartest things I've done is to let go and just let be. Living in the present and not worrying about the future too much is quite blissful. Somethings just don't need to be figured out. Have no vision for a while and just enjoy whatever there is in your life.

One path that may help you is to explore the Buddhist/mindfullness/meditation rabbit hole. It's quite mind blowing when it clicks.

arebelspy

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One of the smartest things I've done is to let go and just let be. Living in the present and not worrying about the future too much is quite blissful. Somethings just don't need to be figured out. Have no vision for a while and just enjoy whatever there is in your life.

One path that may help you is to explore the Buddhist/mindfullness/meditation rabbit hole. It's quite mind blowing when it clicks.

I completely agree, and it's why I added my last post, above.  I'm completely content with the world and in the present.  :)

It's definitely something worth doing, continually.
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Cookie78

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Finally: this is why I HATE the obsession in the media/culture with youthfulness. Getting older is the best thing ever.

THIS. It just gives you nothing to look forward to. Every day in every way, according to the "youth is best" narrative, your life gets worse. I can't wait til I'm old. It seems awesome.

Agreed. In general, the older I get, the more awesome life gets.

Torran

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Finally: this is why I HATE the obsession in the media/culture with youthfulness. Getting older is the best thing ever.

THIS. It just gives you nothing to look forward to. Every day in every way, according to the "youth is best" narrative, your life gets worse. I can't wait til I'm old. It seems awesome.

Something to ponder: Maybe the root of your struggle (you too spy!) is your age. I'm not trying to be condescending but some things are not understandable in your early 20's or early 30's or whenever. Sometimes life just has to unfold. It's like someone who has never had a child understanding what having a drug addicted teenager is like, or somebody who has never been in combat to fully understand war. I'm sure there are things I think I know now or struggle with that will be easy when I'm 50 or 80. When I look back at previous times in my life I come to the conclusion that I would not have been able to understand them without going through struggles that have not yet happened. Whatever vision or purpose you think you have for your life now, I promise you is will be different in 10 years. Maybe not totally different, but different enough. This is why some sort of overarching vision that lasts your whole life is not all that useful, unless you boil it down to something so basic like 'happiness' or 'contentment'. This is probably not comforting but I think this is normal, and sometimes the only way to get through it is to just grind it out and try many different ways.

This is the power of FI. It won't give you the answer, but it will give you the freedom to choose. The problem is, we are not wired to make choices when there are too many. Maybe the achilles heel of FI.

I'll give you guys a book to check out.

The Wisdom of the Enneagram: The Complete Guide to Psychological and Spiritual Growth for the Nine Personality Types
by Don Richard Riso, Russ Hudson

If you are into Meyer-Briggs and personality stuff this will be an interesting read. I find it to be more useful and a very interesting conceptually. It is a great tool for better self reflection and understanding. This book is the closet thing to an aha moment I've had with understanding myself, other than when I  finally totally understood the introvert/extrovert spectrum and what that meant.

Yep. It's a weird thing - I don't really say this to people for fear of sounding condescending, but I really do feel that it just wouldn't have been possible for me to be this happy when I was 22, because I was 22. Nowadays I feel contented, in a way that I just couldn't imagine when I was 22. I'm sure back then I wanted to be 'contented' but I was thinking about an abstract concept of contentment, and didn't have the tools to build a bridge to get to it. Time simply had to pass, and over that time I build the bridge. It was slow and it did NOT feel like I was changing for the better in any way (I just felt like I was 'keeping going'), but I was.

Probably the most useful strategy my therapist gave me, was to learn how to build a path to where I wanted to be. She basically pointed out that I spent a lot of time envisaging disaster in great detail; how I would react to disaster; how disaster would feel (in my case, it was the fear of having a meltdown while doing public speaking for work). She pointed out that I had never imagined public speaking going well. I had to be able to imagine it going well, before it could possibly go well for me in real life. You can't do something you have NEVER even imagined doing.

I'm probably just rambling here - but basically, I agree, and I don't think it's patronizing, I think it is just correct. It's surprised me, how much better I have got at living, just by keeping on doing it :) Hahaha. Ofcourse when I was 22, and people said 'everything will work itself out', I would look at them with pity and think 'uugh they're so old, they can't remember the importance and intensity of what I am feeling right now'. I was an asshole when I was 22.

shelivesthedream - I am not meaning this to be directed at you, more at myself! You definitely do not sound at all like the asshole-22-year-old-me.

cerat0n1a

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I've read the first two.  I'll look for the third, thanks!

I was expecting you to have read Montaigne but not the others. I'd also really recommend Sarah Bakewell's "How to Live: A life of Montaigne".

arebelspy

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I've read the first two.  I'll look for the third, thanks!

I was expecting you to have read Montaigne but not the others. I'd also really recommend Sarah Bakewell's "How to Live: A life of Montaigne".

Okay, got the Bakewell book, as well as the Penguin Classics version/translation of Montaigne's essays.

Looking forward to diving into them (or at least adding them to my very long, and growing, list of books to read).  Thanks again for the recommendation!  :)
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shelivesthedream

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I've read the first two.  I'll look for the third, thanks!

I was expecting you to have read Montaigne but not the others. I'd also really recommend Sarah Bakewell's "How to Live: A life of Montaigne".

Okay, got the Bakewell book, as well as the Penguin Classics version/translation of Montaigne's essays.

Looking forward to diving into them (or at least adding them to my very long, and growing, list of books to read).  Thanks again for the recommendation!  :)

Enjoy! I have read the Bakewell book but didn't enjoy it much. Why read a secondary source when the primary source is excellent and accessible?

Wondering now if you have any book recommendations for me? :) Anything similar to Les Mis or Monte Cristo but by different authors? (I've read others by both authors and particularly enjoyed The Black Tulip)

big_slacker

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I just want to throw this out here about kids, some people gave advice but I don't feel it was worded strongly enough so I will pull no punches here:

DO NOT HAVE KIDS BECAUSE IT'S THE DEFAULT OR FOR A HOPE FOR PURPOSE!!!!! Raising children properly is a MASSIVE investment in time, money, patience, humor, emotion and basically tailoring your life to it. You *MUST* set aside your own priorities almost all of the time so that they get what they need. You lose a lot of the flexibility in your life. Also, you can definitely do it when you're older. I'm 41, my kids are 3 and 5. I'm so happy I did the snowboard bumming, road tripping, international travel, etc. before settling into family life. You can still do some of that with kids (we did a multi country east euro trip with my son and wife pregnant) but it is in no way as fun, free and easy as without kids.

In terms of finding purpose, I think people obsess about this a bit too much. Expecting their life to have a grand plan with them as the hero in their story. Are there things you can do today that you enjoy? Do them, enjoy them while you're doing them. Repeat. :)

arebelspy

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Wondering now if you have any book recommendations for me? :) Anything similar to Les Mis or Monte Cristo but by different authors?

I'm having a hard time with that question, because those two books didn't particularly stand out to me (they're not something I'd ever think to recommend).

A book for what purpose?  Related to this thread?  Or otherwise?  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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cerat0n1a

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I was expecting you to have read Montaigne but not the others. I'd also really recommend Sarah Bakewell's "How to Live: A life of Montaigne".

Okay, got the Bakewell book, as well as the Penguin Classics version/translation of Montaigne's essays.

Looking forward to diving into them (or at least adding them to my very long, and growing, list of books to read).  Thanks again for the recommendation!  :)

Enjoy! I have read the Bakewell book but didn't enjoy it much. Why read a secondary source when the primary source is excellent and accessible?

I think she gives a lot of interesting and relevant background which really added to my enjoyment and appreciation of Montaigne's writings and prompted me to re-read them. I think that's quite a rare thing for a biographer. The nice thing about Montaigne is that it really is the kind of thing you can dip into for 10 minutes.
 
Another example of this might be Samuel Pepys diaries, someone who, like Montaigne, lived through turbulent times (religious & civil wars, plague, great fire of London) and was involved in shaping the modern world (he had a significant impact on turning Britain into a world power.)  Not really philosophy, but very thought provoking reading. If you read the blog version http://www.pepysdiary.com/ which has annotations by experts, links to wikipedia etc. you get so much more out of it than you do by just reading the original text.

RedmondStash

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Hi there,

I'm just chiming in here to express what my personal experience was - hopefully to help you to go a bit easier on yourself and not be too harsh on yourself about the problems you're facing.

Basically, my mid-twenties were the worst time of my life.

This. And I'm 50 now, with a lot more time to look back on.

Like OP, I was a pretty accomplished 25-year-old who felt and was treated much older than I really was.

But -- a 16-year-old can be a really mature and wise adolescent, and still be going through all the changes and troubles of adolescence. Basically, your 20s can be an incredibly difficult time, no matter how sensible and mature you are. They are powerful, overwhelming, emotional, intense. You are still -- not growing up, exactly, but sort of solidifying and forming yourself, and very vulnerable to the world and its expectations. My 20s were fraught with emotional distress, health issues, family issues, and a general aimlessness. I accomplished my lifelong goal, and it turned out to be a bust, so I had no idea what to do next.

I wandered through lots of jobs in software documentation, still not knowing what I wanted to do. A few years ago, I realized my love of video games could actually lead me to a career, so I moved in that direction. I'm now a technical writer documenting internal tools at a video game company, and I couldn't be happier, even though I never would have envisioned this job in my 20s.

Also -- some people just don't have passions, despite that being the current byword. It's okay if you don't, if you're not sure what you want to do, if nothing really calls to you. It's also okay if you do. Finding something to do that you like, or even can tolerate, can be enough, until you're FI and can make your own rules.

I realize "it gets better" may sound trite, but it's true. I was born old. But in many ways, I'm getting more settled, happier, and younger all the time. :)

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And I am 65, and in some ways these are the best years of my life (so far).  The body may be a bit creaky, but the brain is having fun.  I have no answers for any of the topics here, all I can say is that some of us may never be good at articulating our goals or reason for being or whatever (obviously I am one of those people).  If you sit down every so often and ask yourself what is in your life that is bringing you joy/sense of fulfillment/sense of purpose and what is just distracting trivia, you will start to get a hold on what works for you.  But planning?  Of course planning is useful, but some of the best things in my life were semi-random, in that situations arose that I was prepared for, but had not planned on happening (both my good, interesting, long-term jobs, for example).  As well, some events that seemed minor at the time turned out to be far-reaching in my life, while others that I thought were major ended up, 20 or 40 years later, being minor. 

Last Night

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Also, I realize I'm sounding quite discontent.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

With all of the above being said: My life is amazing. It's wonderful.  I'm completely happy 100% of the time, and very content.  There is literally nothing I'd change about it, factually.

That doesn't mean I'm doing it right, or know what I should be doing.  I just like to examine things, and strive for better.  I can't imagine things could be any better, but you never know, there's always hope.  Every day is better than the last, and that's largely because of continual improvements, so I'll keep working at it.  :)

I am in the same boat and I totally get where you are coming from.

I recently read a book called resilience by eric greitens and he touches on this throughout his book.  Your vision/purpose/fulfillment/whatever you want to call it will come to you through a series of experiences that are currently shaping you.  The biggest take away is to try new things (even if they don't make sense at the time or you deem totally random), take yourself out of your comfort zone, fail, try again, fail, try again, etc.  All of these experiences will eventually lead to your "aha moment".  You will not get there by reading about it or watching others do things, you have to go out there and try different things, experience different emotions/hardships/successes/failures and take the time to reflect on them.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 08:21:20 PM by Last Night »

Bertram

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Well, if you can get over his somewhat vulgar style, I think Louis CK has a lot of philosophically relevant advice to share. He's the true master of bottom-up philosophy and thus should work very well as a complementary addition to the high-class, lofty, top-down approaches a lot of us overly "overthinking" types tend to get attached to early in life.

Just as MMM teaches us to re-learn how to get enjoyment without necessarily spending lots of money, Louis CK teaches us that leading a happy/content life does not require a complex superstructure of intellectually sophisticated visions and ethically pure goals. Just as any tool there's place for visions/goals/planning, where it helps; but it's not a magic bullet that's going to solve everything.

arebelspy

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Well, if you can get over his somewhat vulgar style, I think Louis CK has a lot of philosophically relevant advice to share.

Get over?  It's some of the best parts!  :D
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Bertram

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For us plebs, sure. : )

But I am trying to convince someone who has Coco Chanel as her avatar to give his comedy a try! And I think it's worth it, because although it superficially seems otherwise at first, his comedy (and certainly his advice on life) still works if you strip away the profanity. But just as Epikur I think he gets misinterpreted a lot by people who hear half his message and run with it thereby turning it on it's head.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 10:31:21 AM by Bertram »

cerat0n1a

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I wonder how many people in Britain would have heard of Louis CK - very few I suspect. Pretty unusual for stand-up comedians to successfully transfer across the atlantic.

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You're doing fabulously for a person your age.  Work on keeping your saving % high. AND ESPECIALLY work on developing relationships around you.  Volunteer at the local old folks home.  Do something you've always wondered if you'd like.  Paint, draw, skateboard, learn to sing, play the piano etc.  Messing around and finding yourself will help you find others who you just naturally appreciate.  Having interests and people to share them with enriches our lives. 

Relationships are what make life worth living.  http://www.ted.com/talks/robert_waldinger_what_makes_a_good_life_lessons_from_the_longest_study_on_happiness

Torran

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I wonder how many people in Britain would have heard of Louis CK - very few I suspect. Pretty unusual for stand-up comedians to successfully transfer across the atlantic.

Yeah he is pretty popular in the UK :) (also some of his stuff is on UK netflix).

AND I concur. He has some spectacular, humane, beautiful philosophy to his comedy - especially about aging.

Unfortunately this is presented in a style which I can't show my parents, because they would be mostly disgusted.

I think he's great though.

Nickels Dimes Quarters

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Most of us here are forging our own path, not following the masses. Saving money? Investing more than 10%. Heck, investing any at all? No consumer debt? We've left the pack. We're a minority saying no, when everyone else is saying yes to whatever thrills them in the moment.

It is going to feel lonely at times. We are outsiders and outliers.

My driving force is my own financial well-being, which I think brings peace of mind and good health. My day job brings some good challenges and I feel good about the work I do for the government and serving the people. For right now, and until I retire, this is enough.

NDQ

arebelspy

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Interestingly this article, and Kierkegaard, may help provide some answers:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/son-of-saul-kierkegaard-and-the-holocaust/
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Nancy

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Interesting article. Bits that stood out for me and require further contemplation:

Quote
It seems that one cannot fail to be a subject, to be subjective. However, as Kierkegaard points out, the mind can flee its own subjectivity; instead of dwelling in the presence of one’s experience, one can escape into alienation; into theorizing about needs, goals and happiness, and live by abstract principles and objective measures.
Quote
There is less of a tendency for modern humans to live thoroughly immersed in life, experiencing it, and more of a tendency of being mostly distracted by its abstractions...

arebelspy

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Those stood out to me as well, specifically the first one reminding me of this thread.

I didn't post them, because I figured just reading that snippet may cause people to nod, but not read the whole article, whereas not posting anything but that it's relevant may have them go read it, but it may be the opposite--that's enough to whet their appetite to have them go read it.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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Bertram

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I am pretty amazed that such a profound article came disguised in the opinion section as almost a moview review in the NYT. Didn't expect that at all. Thanks for linking it.

brooklynguy

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I am pretty amazed that such a profound article came disguised in the opinion section as almost a moview review in the NYT.

It's part of a running series called "The Stone" (housed within the opinion section of the paper), which has put out a bunch of great and profound pieces.  The Stone is self-described as follows:

Quote from: NYT
The Stone features the writing of contemporary philosophers and other thinkers on issues both timely and timeless. The series moderator is Simon Critchley. He teaches philosophy at The New School for Social Research in New York.

arebelspy

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I am pretty amazed that such a profound article came disguised in the opinion section as almost a moview review in the NYT.

It's part of a running series called "The Stone" (housed within the opinion section of the paper), which has put out a bunch of great and profound pieces.  The Stone is self-described as follows:

Quote from: NYT
The Stone features the writing of contemporary philosophers and other thinkers on issues both timely and timeless. The series moderator is Simon Critchley. He teaches philosophy at The New School for Social Research in New York.

It's been running for a few years, I was lucky enough to catch it the week it premiered somehow (link through Google News or something?), and immediately subscribed through RSS, and have found many great articles there.  It would be worth skimming the back links for content, if you enjoyed that.

Also it's been linked a number of times on these forums, searching the forums for links to there might be fruitful, too.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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Nancy

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Ah man, you're right, Arebelspy. Sorry about the spoilers! The portions I posted are better in context, so definitely worth reading the whole article.

arebelspy

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Ah man, you're right, Arebelspy. Sorry about the spoilers! The portions I posted are better in context, so definitely worth reading the whole article.

No, it's all good, and now I can find those quotes a lot easier!  :D
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

mmuhlenkamp

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Are there things you can do today that you enjoy? Do them, enjoy them while you're doing them. Repeat. :)

Catching up on this thread and this really stood out to me. I think I'll go ride my bike just because it's fun.

MVal

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I've tried to categorise these ramblings a bit below, but the main theme is just not really being sure about what I'm doing with my life. I'd appreciate any thoughts you can raise from the tangled mess below. I'd be equally happy with questions and answers!

Background
I'm 25. I work as a freelance creative doing self-contained team projects. I have a degree in it and am doing OK with my career. I've only been doing it for a little under two years, so I guess I'm still an emerging creative. My husband is training for a super-steady job and his training is being paid for by his future employer. The pay will never be great but it's a job for life and he loves what he does/will do. He'll be training until about May 2017. Small flat in a walkable mid-sized town in the south of England.

Work
For someone working regularly in my creative field, I just don't think I'm very driven. I generally enjoy the work I do, and I definitely enjoy the working patterns of a freelancer (own schedule, own priorities, own responsibility but so little bullshit from bosses/colleagues). But when I look around at the people  graduated with, they are all really hustling to get on, really ambitious to work for top-tier organisations... I mean, I'd love to work for one if the opportunity arose but I just don't have the drive to get on my bike and seek it out. I think I am somewhat falling into the trap of thinking that your job *has* to be some major passion for you, but I do feel like it ought to be for creatives. Otherwise why bother accepting the shitty pay? I feel like I've been handed some huge privilege (regular work in my field) and I'm not even appreciating it.

I also feel a bit like a fraud/imposter. I do feel a bit like I'm just waiting to be found out as not being very creative or good at my job, and that I don't want to put my head above the parapet in case someone notices. But again, while I recognise that I am sort of being drawn into "magical thinking" about creativity, I still feel like that.

Finances
We have about three and a half years of expenses saved. We also have about £30k in student loans between us but they're UK student loans and we might never earn enough to pay back any significant amount. Basically the deal is that we spend my husband's stipend and save anything I earn. Last year this went well and we saved about 60% of our HHI. This year it's not looking so good - we'll barely clear 10% unless something huge pops up for me. I feel very anxious about not saving. I definitely have a scarcity mentality about money. I don't even know what I'm afraid of. The stock market tanks - so we wait for it to go back up again. One of us can't work - we have three years of savings to figure it out. It's just this weird fear about some giant hand in the sky coming down and taking it all away from us.


I'm also taking driving lessons and they are just SO expensive. It's eating up every spare penny of our extra money and then some. I have a test booked for summer but might have to dip into our savings to pay for lessons til then, which TOTALLY freaks me out. If we did that I don't think I would be able to sleep until we had paid back in every penny and then some. And I don't even know if I'll pass that test, so I might need yet more lessons.

Staying at Home
I was super duper busy in autumn with work, but this year has been pretty quiet so far, so I've spent a lot of time at home. It's kind of nice. I've finally managed to get somewhat on top of the cleaning and laundry, and I've been enjoying cooking some new things. I'm slightly tempted to just slide into being a stay-at-home spouse. It seems easy. My husband says he's happy with whatever I want as long as we're financially secure enough to not need my income. (We are at the moment.) But I don't know... It's kind of nice as a breather but it doesn't seem like it would solve my problem of not feeling purposeful and valuable. I would also have HUGE feminist guilt about it. It's one of those things where I would never judge another woman for doing X, but I judge myself massively for it. I have all this expensive education (private school, degree, postgrad) and I'm doing shit all with it. Even though I never asked for private school (parents chose it when I was five) and I didn't really want to go to university (parents told me I had to, paid for it all). The only bit I did for myself and by myself was the postgrad in my current field, and I feel like if I went back to my college they'd be really disappointed in how I'm doing at work right now. I've always been one of those people tipped as "most likely to succeed" but no one ever asked me what I wanted for myself. So now I'm 25 and I just don't know. My husband and I have talked about having children in the next few years but I just worry that my life as an independent being would be over then. I would want to care for my children and hopefully homeschool them, but I don't want to not have had the opportunity to live a little first. I will never again have the freedom that I do now, and I don't even know what to do with it.

Comparing
So I compare myself to other people. I compare myself to the people I graduated with. I compare myself to my friends. I compare myself to my parents. And I know it's stupid and you can't compare apples to oranges and you never even know the full orange anyway, but I still do. And I worry about it. Not pathologically, but just mild fretting. Maybe it's the shitty weather but it's been particularly bad this past week.

Purpose
I think I am lacking purpose in my life, but I don't know where to find one. I also don't really have any close friends to confide in at the moment. I can talk to my husband but he's just so fucking supportive and nice all the time. I need a bit of a wall to bounce off. Not facepunches exactly, but maybe a stern talking to. I am just a very introverted private person, and I constantly worry about others judging me. I think this does stem from my childhood - my mother in particular was very judgemental and not very emotionally connected (see reddit/raisedbynarcissists for an extreme idea). I just don't really know how to have friends. Like, what do you do with them?

Anyway, I don't know if anyone else has ever been in this situation, and what you did. Or if an outside eye could see more clearly. Or if you think I should just man the fuck up and stop wanting to be so existentially satisfied and self-actualised when millions of people are starving.

AGH, at last, a kindred spirit!! I relate to every feeling you just described completely! I am a creative person but haven't ever had a creative job, so at least you are able to do that. But I do know what you mean about feeling like a fraud. The main thing that motivates me to FIRE is the desire to escape this need to work as a "fraud" and just be done with compulsive employment altogether. I have a deep fear that if I ever left my job for another, at any other place it would be impossible for me to hide my ineptitude and I'd be consumed with stress and failure. I'm quite jealous of all the self-assured people in this group who are very good at their jobs and the feeling of being inferior never enters their mind. I'm sorry about your debt situation, that is difficult. I was fortunate to have a small amount of student debt and get it paid off a couple of years ago, but I don't make a huge amount of money and growing my stache feels painfully slow. Kudos to you on having 3 years of expenses stashed, though! Sounds like you're on the right track.  Hang in there and let's stick together!

MVal

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I've never posted before and only found this blog/forum in like Dec I think so I have nothing to say about money, but I can chime in here on other things.

First, I'm super into personality stuff. I'm a fellow introvert (Myers Briggs INFP) and aspiring creative that also feels that I want to have meaning and some purpose in my career. Odd thing maybe on a forum specifically about retiring, but it's who I am and I'm more interested in the FI part for now anyways.

Idk what your personality type is, but the group I'm in (NF) is often thinking about the existential things. I don't think you have to give that up or "just get over it". I think it sounds like you've been doing that (or trying to) for a lot of your life and it's only making you miserable. Maybe look into sitting down and doing the "hard" work of writing out what your actual values are in life. Maybe they do involve you being ambitious, but also maybe they just involve you providing more value to people (in whatever way is important to you). It sounds like you know exactly what your parents and societies values are, but you don't know what yours are. So, take a weekend or however long it takes and figure them out. Then decide what small things you can do in your life that will move you in that direction. If you are following your values in your day to day life you will most likely feel more meaning and purpose in it as well. You don't need to follow the default values of your parents or society you come from. You are allowed to choose your own. :)

As for feeling like an impostor. This is an actual thing and it's called impostor syndrome and the creative field is the one hit heaviest by it. Though it is often a thing that hits people in many other fields as well. This is a fun and funny article about it that I read recently.

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2016/02/04/emmie-mears-hi-hello-were-here-to-revoke-your-artist-card/

As for friends. That can definitely be harder as an introvert especially when you're insecure/shy/perfectionist. It's also a skill that can be learned. People don't often think of it like that, but it is. If you're super horrible at it then I'd recommend a great book by Tynan http://www.amazon.com/Superhuman-Social-Skills-Likeable-Building-ebook/dp/B015QA1250/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8 . Also, just doing the scary things like being more friendly and going out with work people. Or doing a hobby where you can meet people... which can be anything really as long as it's in a group. You could even go to classes at the gym and meet people. Or yoga. Or maybe you always wanted to learn glass blowing or pottery making. Or maybe outside things like a running club or hiking or something. Whatever you've wanted to try, but have put off go take a class or join a group. And then even if you don't meet anyone you will have done something fun that you've always wanted to. It's a win-win. :)

HI FIVE, I'm an INFP too!! I'm constantly fighting against my natural inclination to find "meaningful work" when it mostly seems anything that falls in that category doesn't pay but peanuts or less. I've tried convincing myself to "get over it" also, but it is soul crushing. It definitely drives me to save so that eventually I will have the choices I want in life. We are caged birds yearning to fly!

milliemchi

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HI FIVE, I'm an INFP too!! I'm constantly fighting against my natural inclination to find "meaningful work" when it mostly seems anything that falls in that category doesn't pay but peanuts or less. I've tried convincing myself to "get over it" also, but it is soul crushing. It definitely drives me to save so that eventually I will have the choices I want in life. We are caged birds yearning to fly!

I have to say that I had a bit of the same dilemma early in my career (research). There were all kinds of interesting questions I wanted to work on (origin of universe, fundamental structure of matter, etc.), which didn't offer much in terms of financial reward. I was able to switch to something else, rewarding in a different way (connected to healthcare), once I realized that the things I was interested in could be hobbies.  I follow news on my interests, while I do a job that allows me to indulge in other needs and wants (travel, maintaining family connections, raising kids with opportunities I think they should have, etc.). It's a compromise. I've met people who do one thing and keep their art as a hobby, so it's doable. They keep their identity as a creative person, which is important, while being able to take care of other aspects of their identity. Not everything can be had 100%, all the time. There's also always different volunteer opportunities, if you want to contribute something meaningful to the world.

The young people today are told to 'follow their dreams' and that they 'can achieve whatever they set their mind to' and whatever, and it creates a kind of a tyranny of expectations. I truly think that this new culture of self-fulfillment creates an undue burden on the young, impeding and delaying the achievement of happiness.  (Not to mention directly undermining happiness by advising taking huge student loans to finance degrees with low earning potential.) It's fiction and it's not helpful.  Not 50% will be lucky to do truly fulfilling work full time while making a living, simply because there is not enough such work to go around. There are many other ways to be happy and whole as a human being. You have to de-program and look for what is achievable for you, and build your own compromise (and it is always a compromise) using your own parameters.

arebelspy

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The young people today are told to 'follow their dreams' and that they 'can achieve whatever they set their mind to' and whatever, and it creates a kind of a tyranny of expectations. I truly think that this new culture of self-fulfillment creates an undue burden on the young, impeding and delaying the achievement of happiness.  (Not to mention directly undermining happiness by advising taking huge student loans to finance degrees with low earning potential.) It's fiction and it's not helpful.  Not 50% will be lucky to do truly fulfilling work full time while making a living, simply because there is not enough such work to go around. There are many other ways to be happy and whole as a human being. You have to de-program and look for what is achievable for you, and build your own compromise (and it is always a compromise) using your own parameters.

I'm not sure I buy that, but ultimately you have do do what works for you.  So if that works for you, go for it.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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MVal

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HI FIVE, I'm an INFP too!! I'm constantly fighting against my natural inclination to find "meaningful work" when it mostly seems anything that falls in that category doesn't pay but peanuts or less. I've tried convincing myself to "get over it" also, but it is soul crushing. It definitely drives me to save so that eventually I will have the choices I want in life. We are caged birds yearning to fly!

I have to say that I had a bit of the same dilemma early in my career (research). There were all kinds of interesting questions I wanted to work on (origin of universe, fundamental structure of matter, etc.), which didn't offer much in terms of financial reward. I was able to switch to something else, rewarding in a different way (connected to healthcare), once I realized that the things I was interested in could be hobbies.  I follow news on my interests, while I do a job that allows me to indulge in other needs and wants (travel, maintaining family connections, raising kids with opportunities I think they should have, etc.). It's a compromise. I've met people who do one thing and keep their art as a hobby, so it's doable. They keep their identity as a creative person, which is important, while being able to take care of other aspects of their identity. Not everything can be had 100%, all the time. There's also always different volunteer opportunities, if you want to contribute something meaningful to the world.

The young people today are told to 'follow their dreams' and that they 'can achieve whatever they set their mind to' and whatever, and it creates a kind of a tyranny of expectations. I truly think that this new culture of self-fulfillment creates an undue burden on the young, impeding and delaying the achievement of happiness.  (Not to mention directly undermining happiness by advising taking huge student loans to finance degrees with low earning potential.) It's fiction and it's not helpful.  Not 50% will be lucky to do truly fulfilling work full time while making a living, simply because there is not enough such work to go around. There are many other ways to be happy and whole as a human being. You have to de-program and look for what is achievable for you, and build your own compromise (and it is always a compromise) using your own parameters.

I can absolutely attest to being a victim of this fallacy. All my school years were filled with tests identifying your "passion" and "talents" and encouraging you to follow your dreams. Very little education on actual practical matters of life like personal finance or what a limiting factor money would be on one's life.

Bertram

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I'll bite and play the devils advocate. There's the old adage:

Quote
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders.
Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.

School will always be imperfect, and it will never be "complete" in teaching you everything you will ever need in life. What is important is to find goals  to aspire to, and to be able to learn the things you need to get there (i.e., schools should be teaching you how to learn things on your own). Yes, schools could do a better job and we should work to improve them. But I wouldn't criticize them for trying to encourage kids/young adults to find goals that are important to them. Now it could be argued that they are too young for that advice (I sure was), but it still lets them know that they don't have to live the life that someone else expects from them, but that they are the masters of their fate (and if they confuse this with being all-powerful masters of the universe that can bend reality to their will and will never be bound by any limits... well, I don't blame the schools).

milliemchi

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(and if they confuse this with being all-powerful masters of the universe that can bend reality to their will and will never be bound by any limits... well, I don't blame the schools).

Why would you not blame the schools? This is arguably what they preach, to arguably very impressionable people, who arguably tend to already think so of themselves and don't really need that reinforced.

OTH, none of this would be so dire in the long term, actually, if it weren't for the high debt/low income potential trap that I mentioned. On days when I want to be cynical, all this 'follow your dreams' talk sounds like an effective method to keep the middle class back in its work-forever bondage.

cerat0n1a

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FWIW, we don't have much of this "follow your dreams" stuff in UK schools, much more "knuckle down and pass this arbitrary government test" and I'm not sure it makes us turn out radically different to americans in terms of career choices, consumer spending habits etc etc.

milliemchi

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FWIW, we don't have much of this "follow your dreams" stuff in UK schools, much more "knuckle down and pass this arbitrary government test" and I'm not sure it makes us turn out radically different to americans in terms of career choices, consumer spending habits etc etc.

Not knowing much about UK, I'm going to throw this out, aware that it may be wrong:

Perhaps the career choices don't differ much, because freshly minted adults can largely only choose from what is available.  The difference may be in the sentiment. If you think you 'deserve' a better, more meaningful career, you will be unhappy that you didn't find it. If not, you will be happy that you found your place under the sun and are a functioning adult. It's the same job in the end, but different expectations lead to different levels of happiness or anxiety.

This is not taking into account student loans, and years wasted waiting tables because 'acting is your calling'.  These, to be fair, are not a problem for majority. But for those that experience them, they can be a big problem.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 11:00:19 AM by milliemchi »

arebelspy

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It's easy to blame someone else.


And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, feeling indignant.
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milliemchi

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When you're 17,18,19... you can be entitled to blaming others, to a point. I have followed my mother's advice when choosing career tracks in high school. It's worked out great for me, because she gave good advice. If she had poor advice to give, I would have likely still followed it, but would now feel entitled to blame her for it, just like now I feel grateful.  When you have to lean on others, who are supposed to work for your benefit because they are more experienced, you can assign some blame.

shelivesthedream

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FWIW, we don't have much of this "follow your dreams" stuff in UK schools, much more "knuckle down and pass this arbitrary government test" and I'm not sure it makes us turn out radically different to americans in terms of career choices, consumer spending habits etc etc.

I would disagree. The main messages I got from school were:

1. Choose a university subject you are "passionate" about and worry about your career later.
2. Yes, you must go to university or you will die eating rats under a bridge.
3. When you do finally choose your career (at or after university), you must choose an authorised upper middle class career (banker, doctor, lawyer) or die eating rats under a bridge.
4. Equally and at the same time, you must be passionate about your chosen career.
5. If you choose an alternative career:
i. If it is creative/unorthodox then you will have failed to fulfil your potential UNLESS you get mega-famous.
ii. If it is lower level (e.g. Shop assistant or receptionist) then you will have failed to fulfil your potential and will die eating rats under a bridge.
6. Anything less than world domination in your career means you are failing to fulfil your potential and deserve to die eating rats under a bridge.
7. Anything other than overwhelming passion for your career means you will never achieve world domination.
8. No, we cannot tell you what career to choose to fulfil the potential we have arbitrarily decided you have and to make sure you don't die eating rats under a bridge. But don't worry, just choose a subject you're passionate about to study at university (despite the fact that A levels have killed any passion you thought you might have for the subject) and everything will magically be alright.

School is so fucked up.