MMM Electric Car forum/thread?

[Aardvark]

Although I understand that the MMM ideal is to not own a car, that is an unrealistic ambition for many of us. I would have thought that this forum has a section dedicated to cars (and especially electric cars). If I've overlooked it please direct me, otherwise I'd love to hear any suggestions regarding resources that I can use to figure out the most mustachian option for myself (Or maybe the MMM forum Gods should create a new section for this...?)

My situation:
-Currently carless and loving it
-Winter is coming and there is a good chance that I will soon start a job that is about 25min drive from home... These factors are pushing me towards considering a car.
-I want to do the most financially savvy and environmentally responsible thing. Based on this I am leaning towards a ~5 year old car with the best fuel efficiency possible. However, I am also considering something like a lease-swop on an electric using https://www.swapalease.com

update:
-The commute is about 15 miles in each direction.
-Denver/Boulder area, so winters are pretty mild
-The car's main use will be for the commute, but maybe a few side trips and weekend missions (we could also use a car-share option for this)
-Currently no charge points at work, but maybe I can change that (and there are some level two chargers about a mile away if I'm desperate)

Any thoughts/resources/insights/suggestions would be much apprecaited.

Happy Days

[Dave1442397]

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/electric-cars-can-they-finally-become-popular-in-the-united-states/

[Aardvark]

Thanks!

[Aardvark]

It doesn't seem possible to comment on that thread. Any idea why?

[shuffler]

It doesn't seem possible to comment on that thread. Any idea why?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/new-100-posts-to-post-in-'off-topic'-boards-103416/msg2321210/#msg2321210

[Syonyk]

Any thoughts/resources/insights/suggestions would be much apprecaited.

Buy a 2nd gen Volt and don't look back.  You can charge on 120V or 240V, whatever's convenient, can drive it across the country on gas if you have some reason to do so, they fit a surprising amount of stuff in the back, and the Volt is a conservative, well engineered vehicle that does pretty much all things for all people, in terms of "small numbers of people and not a huge amount of stuff" transportation on very little gas.

[gooki]

Is it just for commuting? Or do you plan to travel out of the city as well?

[dang1]

-Winter is coming and there is a good chance that I will soon start a job that is about 25min drive from home...

slap some snow tires on the fat bike and call it a day

[Paper Chaser]

I actually agree that some sort of transportation sub forum might be nice. We get lots of questions about buying cars, DIY repairing cars, reducing # of cars in the family, e bikes, cycling, public transit topics, etc. Having all of those conversations located in a single place might make it easier to search/navigate and be seen rather than posting them in a half dozen different forum sections as it is now.

As for this specific case, pending more details from OP I'm going to second Syonyk's advice. A lightly used PHEV gives you tons of advantages (assuming you can plug it in daily). They're reliable, efficient, cheap to own/operate, environmentally friendly, and don't typically cost more than a full ICE equivalent.

[nereo]

OP I agree with Syonyk: in your situation a 2nd generation Volt would fit your needs perfectly and be among the most fuel and dollar efficient.  You said “25 min commute” but didn’t specify distance or charging infrastructure at work. 

If that’s < 20 miles each way you could also go with a used Leaf with a 30kWh or 40kWh battery pack if you want to do full BEV - the first Gen Leafs (which are dirt cheap and had a 21kWh battery pack) might struggle with a 20 mile commute in very cold weather, particularly if you have any side trips or don’t get a full recharge.  If you’ve got at-work charging in addition to at-home, I wouldn’t wouldn’t worry about range at all for daily commutes.

[GodlessCommie]

Buy a 2nd gen Volt and don't look back.  You can charge on 120V or 240V, whatever's convenient, can drive it across the country on gas if you have some reason to do so, they fit a surprising amount of stuff in the back, and the Volt is a conservative, well engineered vehicle that does pretty much all things for all people, in terms of "small numbers of people and not a huge amount of stuff" transportation on very little gas.

A used Ford C-Max PHEV fits into the same category. A smaller battery, an older design, but a more practical form factor.

There are decent PHEVs from Kia and Hunday, too - but they haven't been selling a ton, and very few are in the used market.

[Aardvark]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the great replies, and my apologies for the late reply.

Here are some more details regarding my situation:
-The commute is about 15 miles in each direction.
-Denver/Boulder area, so winters are pretty mild
-The car's main use will be for the commute, but maybe a few side trips and weekend missions (we could also use a car-share option for this)
-Currently no charge points at work, but maybe I can change that (and there are some level two chargers about a mile away if I'm desperate)

More questions:
-When looking at electrics how do you account for mileage, age, and/or battery degradation?
-Doesn't leasing make quite a bit of sense here because the battery degradation isn't your problem and you can benefit from the outrageous learning curves that will drive prices down further in the next few years?
-The volt is surprisingly expensive (even the super old ones with tons of miles on)... is this really a good purchase?

Thanks everybody!!

[gooki]

For those distances a used Nissan Leaf should do the trick, assuming you can charge at home.

Battery state of health gives you the battery degradation. For a reference my 2014 Nissan Leaf is at 74% sate of health and happily has a 100km range.

[gooki]

Or a PHEV. The Mitsubishi Outlander is also worth a look.

[Alanphilips]

Although I understand that the MMM ideal is to not own a car, that is an unrealistic ambition for many of us. I would have thought that this forum has a section dedicated to cars (and especially electric cars). If I've overlooked it please direct me, otherwise I'd love to hear any suggestions regarding resources that I can use to figure out the most mustachian option for myself (Or maybe the MMM forum Gods should create a new section for this...?)

My situation:
-Currently carless and loving it
-Winter is coming and there is a good chance that I will soon start a job that is about 25min drive from home... These factors are pushing me towards considering a car.
-I want to do the most financially savvy and environmentally responsible thing. Based on this I am leaning towards a ~5 year old car with the best fuel efficiency possible. However, I am also considering something like a lease-swop on an electric using https://www.swapalease.com

update:
-The commute is about 15 miles in each direction.
-Denver/Boulder area, so winters are pretty mild
-The car's main use will be for the commute, but maybe a few side trips and weekend missions (we could also use a car-share option for this)
-Currently no charge points at work, but maybe I can change that (and there are some level two chargers about a mile away if I'm desperate)

Any thoughts/resources/insights/suggestions would be much apprecaited.

Happy Days

Do you use your car for travel or camping? If you only use it for the purpose of going to work every day, then you can buy a 4-seater that is reasonable, the budget is moderate. You can consider the Honda Accord, I've been driving it for over 6 years now. Or some other options like Honda Civic, Toyota Camry... I'm debating on tires for my Accord, can anyone recommend a good one? It's my first time changing a tire. I have read this article https://tireer.com/best-tires-for-honda-accord/ , but there are too many choices here.

[GodlessCommie]

15 miles each way is perfectly doable in early EVs - Leaf, Volt, eGolf. With C-Max, you'll drive a part of the way on gas. Used Leafs in particular are plentiful and dirt cheap. The problem with them is that long-distance travel is near impossible. Volt and other PHEVs don't have this problem. I'd avoid pre-heat pump model years on Leafs (2013 and earlier, I believe).

[Aardvark]

[/quote]

Do you use your car for travel or camping? If you only use it for the purpose of going to work every day, then you can buy a 4-seater that is reasonable, the budget is moderate. You can consider the Honda Accord, I've been driving it for over 6 years now. Or some other options like Honda Civic, Toyota Camry...
[/quote]

It would be nice to be able to drive up to Vail from Boulder (103 miles). But this is a luxury that would happen seldom, and can also be managed by a car share option or maybe even trading cars with family/friends for the weekend. or Carpooling. So the main reason that I am looking at cars is for the 15 mile commute (30 miles per day).


I am still finding it very difficult to compare EV to Hybrid to gas options. The websites don't list the battery health, battery size, or current range. I also don't know what the projected battery health would be over then next few years. I don't want to by a car that is going to see battery-death in the next two years. I also don't know how to incorporate mileage/age into my assessment.

Arg - can anybody recommend a thorough article about "this is what to look at if you want to buy and EV/Hybrid"...?

Thanks again!

[jeninco]

FWIW, MrInCO needed a vehicle for a similar commute (Boulder to the I-25 side of Broomfield) but we also do some "around the west" trips. the PHEV Prius (the one we have is a Prius Prime) wasn't super-cheap, but it has the advantage of being all-electric for trips around town (and for him to get to/from work the few days/week he might have to commute, off in the future while still having a 800-1000 mile range as a regular hybrid. Seriously, we drove the thing to northern Idaho and got 55+ mpg without being able to plug it in much. With a full charge, it gets round about 100 MPGe for the first tank or so. (However, you lose some hauling capacity to the battery in the back.)

Note that mileage is entertainingly worse if you're driving up to Vail because the engine needs to work fairly hard to go up I-70 at prevailing traffic speeds... (but we never saw worse than 40, even mostly going uphill)

I also wanted to mention that I drove a base model Corrola over the summer (as a rental) and the thing got around 50 mph on the highway, going 75 - 80.

Anyhow, if you can swallow the initial increased cost, a used PHEV makes a lot of sense for the "we mostly drive around town/nearby, but sometimes go for long trips" use case. (Or, if the long trips are really occasional, your zip car solution also makes sense.)

[Weisass]

I tend to agree that a *transportation hacks* Subforum would be nice.
So much investment and waste go in to how we get from a to b, and a place to discuss that with principles of simplicity and low impact in mind sounds useful.

[nereo]

Do you use your car for travel or camping? If you only use it for the purpose of going to work every day, then you can buy a 4-seater that is reasonable, the budget is moderate. You can consider the Honda Accord, I've been driving it for over 6 years now. Or some other options like Honda Civic, Toyota Camry...
[/quote]

It would be nice to be able to drive up to Vail from Boulder (103 miles). But this is a luxury that would happen seldom, and can also be managed by a car share option or maybe even trading cars with family/friends for the weekend. or Carpooling. So the main reason that I am looking at cars is for the 15 mile commute (30 miles per day).


I am still finding it very difficult to compare EV to Hybrid to gas options. The websites don't list the battery health, battery size, or current range. I also don't know what the projected battery health would be over then next few years. I don't want to by a car that is going to see battery-death in the next two years. I also don't know how to incorporate mileage/age into my assessment.

Arg - can anybody recommend a thorough article about "this is what to look at if you want to buy and EV/Hybrid"...?

Thanks again!
[/quote]

I think you may be overly fearful regarding battery health.  With the exception of the early Leafs which had cooling problems, replacing an entire battery pack is pretty rare, and the cost of replacement has come down considerably. Generally it’s just a cell or two that goes bad, and those are fairly easy to replace, even DIY.

As has been discussed in the “other” MMM electric vehicle thread, the real savings from owning a BEV aren’t from decreased “fuel” costs, but from reduced maintenance and repairs.  There’s a small but non-negligible chance you might have to replace your battery pack in a few years, but buying an ICE vehicle there’s also a non-negligible change that you might have to replace a transmission, engine, or other large repair.  And the repair histories from the last ~8 years of ICE/BEVs suggest that battery replacement is less common than major engine repair.

As for finding out range and battery size, that’s pretty easy to do just by looking up and recording each kind of BEV that fits your needs (there are only a half-dozen or so which are likely to fit your needs).  Most (all?) allow you to check the battery health, though you might ahve to to do so in person or specifically ask.

[sonofsven]

I would also find such a thread interesting and would likely take part. I actually discovered MMM through a funny piece he wrote about work trucks, I have a professional interest in work trucks, and have owned quite a few, and I found his fairly over-the-top, completely hyperbolic rant about work trucks to be right on the money.

[Aardvark]

So... How do we petition the powers that be to use their handlebar-staches to create a new sub-forum focused on personal transport (maybe with subsections for Ebikes and cars)...?

[Aardvark]

Okay…
I still haven’t taken action…
Which leads me to a new question:
Does anybody have experience looking for cars that are being sold at a Christmas discount?
I’m too late for Black Friday, and apparently Xmas is a bigger sale for cars anyway.
Any insights would be great!

[nereo]

Okay…
I still haven’t taken action…
Which leads me to a new question:
Does anybody have experience looking for cars that are being sold at a Christmas discount?
I’m too late for Black Friday, and apparently Xmas is a bigger sale for cars anyway.
Any insights would be great!

I don’t think “Christmas discounts” are a thing for cars. A few years ago I was shocked to learn that December is among the strongest month for car buying because so many people buy cars as a Christmas present (so much so that the “Lexus red bow” is a very real thing and something you can even buy as a stand-alone). High demand with static inventory typically means few deals.

However post-holidays can be a good time for a deal if you aren’t overly picky. By then they want to move remaining inventory.

[Aardvark]

Okay... My sluggish progress on this front continues.

I have looked at the C-MAX, and I actually really like it.

My onw big question is whether it's too big a risk to buy the 2013 model. Specifically one of these:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/904277673827044/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1130174711054497/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner

I drove the first one, and the owner seems to have taken great care of it.

From what I have read online I do worry a bit about the transmission falling apart and about the hybrid battery giving trouble. Both of these problems are obviously more probable on a car that has just tipped past 100k Miles.

Any wisdom on how to decide whether this purchase is mustachian would be very much appreciated. As a reminder - this car will be used for a small daily commute and a weekend getaway from time to time.

[Aardvark]

15 miles each way is perfectly doable in early EVs - Leaf, Volt, eGolf. With C-Max, you'll drive a part of the way on gas. Used Leafs in particular are plentiful and dirt cheap. The problem with them is that long-distance travel is near impossible. Volt and other PHEVs don't have this problem. I'd avoid pre-heat pump model years on Leafs (2013 and earlier, I believe).

@GodlessCommie you seem to know a thing or two about the C-MAX. Your insights would be apprecaited!

[GodlessCommie]

@GodlessCommie you seem to know a thing or two about the C-MAX. Your insights would be apprecaited!

Only theoretical, I'm afraid. I was considering it at some point, and hung around on a dedicated C-Max forum. It's an earlier plug-in with a limited EV-only range. But people raved about reliability and a practical form-factor.

[MoustacheDArgent]

I've been driving a 1st gen volt that I bought used 6 years ago and have had a great experience with it.  I rarely have to buy gas and if I hadn't decided to get a Tesla for my next car I would get a 2nd gen volt.   It's kind of disappointing that they stopped making them.   

[Syonyk]

After 2600 miles of road trip in our Gen 1 Volt...

Yeah, still love it.  The right answer for most people now is the Gen 2 if you can find one, but... seriously, the Volt is amazing.

https://www.sevarg.net/2021/12/04/family-trips-2600-miles-in-a-volt/

[Just Joe]

I have quite a bit of seat time in newer Leafs. The Plus has ~200 miles of range and the standard ~150 miles of range. I recommend either. Just don't rely on fast charging. They still have aircooled batteries which are fine for L1 (120V) and L2 (220V) charging. Fast DC charging really heats the battery up but no other use cases I saw did - even over the mtns here in the south with the a/c on.

We would seriously consider a used Leaf if we were buying a used EV today b/c it would rarely leave the county. Mostly commuting and shopping type uses. Fortunately (unfortunately?) our Honda will likely last forever. 21+ years now.     

The poor old Leaf just isn't the cool kid compared to the Tesla and Mustang so it gets overlooked by some which is fine b/c it is more affordable. Look at recent price drops and tax credits.