Author Topic: MMM and Home Schooling  (Read 101180 times)

jsloan

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #150 on: February 02, 2015, 08:29:43 AM »
The fact that everyone is quickly and harshly condemning BeginninginWisedom is exactly why in a free society home-schooling is and should be permissible.

Frankly, I feel like it is shows that homeschooling is still very much a work in progress.  I'm not sure how allowing parents to opt out of basic science education is somehow a great thing for our country as a whole and should be encouraged?  The worst example of this in my mind is the anti-vaccination movement made popular by homeschooling communities.  It seems like this is a classic example of our obsession of American individualism overruling basic public health and common sense.

My personal belief is that is the rise of homeschooling is actually a direct result of "No Child Left Behind".  Sensible families, who 20 years ago, would have had no part of homeschooling are looking to homeschooling now because it is alternative to "teaching the test" that so many parents have become frustrated with.  Homeschooling is basically an escape valve for parents when they should be fighting to change public schools.  This only leaves behind poorly performing students who can't keep up with the new testing standards. 

Sid888

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #151 on: February 02, 2015, 08:38:58 AM »
The fact that everyone is quickly and harshly condemning BeginninginWisedom is exactly why in a free society home-schooling is and should be permissible.

Frankly, I feel like it is shows that homeschooling is still very much a work in progress.  I'm not sure how allowing parents to opt out of basic science education is somehow a great thing for our country as a whole and should be encouraged?  The worst example of this in my mind is the anti-vaccination movement made popular by homeschooling communities.  It seems like this is a classic example of our obsession of American individualism overruling basic public health and common sense.

My personal belief is that is the rise of homeschooling is actually a direct result of "No Child Left Behind".  Sensible families, who 20 years ago, would have had no part of homeschooling are looking to homeschooling now because it is alternative to "teaching the test" that so many parents have become frustrated with.  Homeschooling is basically an escape valve for parents when they should be fighting to change public schools.  This only leaves behind poorly performing students who can't keep up with the new testing standards.
+1 - I couldn't agree with you more.  This is exactly what happens when you let Grover Norquist inspired conservatives slash school spending in an attempt to drown public education in a tub.  It seems like it would be more efficient and cheaper for individuals and society to improve the schools rather than run away from them (but expect public $ support)  That said, in very, very rare occasions, I can see a need.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 08:45:17 AM by Sid888 »

LennStar

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #152 on: February 02, 2015, 08:42:31 AM »
The fact that everyone is quickly and harshly condemning BeginninginWisedom is exactly why in a free society home-schooling is and should be permissible.
Well, if someone comes here and says (e.g.) the world is flat, the people who have fly (flown?) around it in an airplane will point out the inconsistence with current empirical evidence.
But that is not condemning and only harsh if you dont like empirical proof.

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well that sure as shit sounds like a solid basis to educate your kids on.
And that sure as shit is trolling and by the way wrong if meant ironically.
Prayers HAVE a positive effect on the people praying, thats even true for atheists (= its the emotional doing that counts, not the what to)
Please consider for further comments if they adhere to your moral standards. I hope that one does not and was just very badly written.

UnleashHell

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #153 on: February 02, 2015, 08:46:53 AM »
OK, Unleashell, your bias is showing here big time. In light of extremely good academic results from homeschooling, you choose to curse and try to degreed me for praying.


you made it sound as if your whole preparation for home schooling was based purely upon praying.

I think that a little planning helps...


- I couldn't agree with you more.  It seems like it would be more efficient and cheaper for individuals and society to improve the schools rather than run away from them (but expect public $ support)  That said, in very, very rare occasions, I can see a need.

and would you leave your child in an underfunded school system for years while you push for more funding? Or take action that is in your hands to do so?

Sid888

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #154 on: February 02, 2015, 08:57:57 AM »
- I couldn't agree with you more.  It seems like it would be more efficient and cheaper for individuals and society to improve the schools rather than run away from them (but expect public $ support)  That said, in very, very rare occasions, I can see a need.
and would you leave your child in an underfunded school system for years while you push for more funding? Or take action that is in your hands to do so?

Underfunded does not always equal bad education or bad school environment but it is a large factor.

My answer would depend on a lot of variables including budget, time, access to charter schools, selective enrollment or private school alternatives, how well parents in the school are organized for both academics and politics, what politicians represent the school and their willingness and ability to change school funding, ability to move, how my child is coping at school, access to tutors and or enrichment programs etc.

jsloan

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #155 on: February 02, 2015, 09:07:25 AM »
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and would you leave your child in an underfunded school system for years while you push for more funding? Or take action that is in your hands to do so?

I totally agree, this is not an easy decision as a parent.  In the short term, our decision has been to live in a good public school district.  I'm not sure if I'm a hypocrite for not sending my kids to an inner city school just to prove a point, but I also believe in the public school model and choose to live in an upper middle class city so my tax dollars support a system I believe in.  On this board this can be especially tough when some people choose to in live less than stellar public school districts to get to FIRE faster.  These are big decisions that totally depend on your own circumstance and beliefs.   

sabertooth3

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #156 on: February 02, 2015, 09:08:15 AM »
I'm <30, don't have kids, and went to public school- so there's my POV for this. I'm a little skeptical of homeschooling for a few reasons. Up front, these are generalizations based on my personal experience; what you do/have done with your kids is completely your own business. In fact, I'd love to hear people who've experienced home-schooling chime in and clear up or confirm any misconceptions I have.

I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but the majority of homeschooling in this country still seems to be rooted in some kind of religious/moral orthodoxy that parents use to teach their children their very narrow worldview and that any abberations from that view are heretical/sinful/immoral. This probably doesn't apply to most of the people that read this forum, but I have to state it.

  • For people who do read this forum, my first concern is that homeschooling can hinder emotional development. I'll touch on it next, but interacting with lots of different kinds of other children and adults is, to me, a critical part of emotional development. Being able to handle interpersonal situations such as bullying (which, of course, I oppose), feeling like someone's being unfair, not understanding what the teacher is trying to tell you and having to get clarification; these are important and transferable to anything that you do in life. I'm concerned that if a child is raised and schooled like they're the center of the world (which to their parents, they are- and rightfully so!), they'll grow up thinking that they're the center of the world and that everything's hunky-dory, not realizing that many people struggle with many things. Not experiencing some degree of struggle on their own would seem to me like hindering their emotional development.
  • Second is socialization. I (seriously) could be wrong here, but going to public school with black kids, brown kids, Muslim kids, Christian kids, and Jewish kids exposed me to a wide array of different cultures that you simply cannot get in a homeschool environment. Sure you can join sports teams or interest clubs, and those are great and I fully support them. But I think it's important to grow up around a lot of different kinds of people to get an appreciation that life is different depending on your point of view. Also, I think it's important for kids to interact with adults who aren't their parents and learn that adults can be wrong too.
  • Third is expertise, especially at older levels. Elementary school I could definitely see, since (where I grew up) elementary classes were taught by 1 teacher who covered all the major subjects. Given the pretty high education level on these forums, most posters would probably be covered for that. But are you an expert in biology, chemistry, physics, comparative politics, history, economics, literature, music, and art? Because as the child gets older, he/she will need at least a fundamental base of knowledge in each of these subjects, and while you may be an awesome engineer, you owe it to your child to teach him/her about classic literature and world history too.

TL:DR- my issues with homeschooling are emotional development, socialization, and subject matter expertise. Please clarify/confirm my thoughts, as they are not meant to be inflammatory.

HenryDavid

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #157 on: February 02, 2015, 09:26:38 AM »
OK I work in higher education and I can tell you that people who go through the public systems don't necessarily get much out of it.
A huge amount of school time is spent on non-educational shuffling around and doing what you're told. Bureaucracy.
The school environment at its worst can verge on something out of a prison movie. Lots of bullying, intimidation, and disrespect, sometimes from the teachers themselves.
Two hours a day in a library will teach you far more.
Seeing an adult who truly cares about learning and gets jazzed about it is worth 20 years of public school.
The socialization excuse is a red herring. There are heaps of ways to learn to get along with other people beside school: extended family, sports, neighbours, travel, volunteer work . . ..

jzb11

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #158 on: February 02, 2015, 09:31:54 AM »
In my opinion, homeschooling FTW.

College: 12-16 hours a week of class
High school: 6:45 to 2:15 every day. Roughly 7 hours of class.

When I started university, I remember telling myself that I was ready for this schedule four years ago, and how much of a giant fucking waste of time high school was.

My personal opinion is that public schools are a day care for teenagers. There's so much wasted time, and so little learned.

Not only that, but there's a lot of bullshit that students put up with that they don't in the real world. Bullying is a great example. If you lay your finger on me in the real world, your ass is going to jail. Of course, I could choose to beat the shit out of you in self defense, and not be punished for it either. Unlike my public school system with it's 0 tolerance policy on violence, which meant that the victim got punished just as harshly as the bully for retaliating - Seriously, what kind of bullshit is that?

Anyway I'm speaking anectdotally here, but all of the people I went to university with that were home schooled were excellent students on full scholarships. They were also independent, critical thinkers, and had always had some sort of job. Their parents were intelligent/hardworking/frugal as well.

If I have kids, I would prefer to homeschool them by far. Public schools are a joke.

Really though, I'll continue the rant on bullying. You don't punish victims for fighting back, and if you really cared about stopping bullying you'd expel the bullies! Of course, it's funny that the bullies get to stick around and never seem to receive more than a slap on the wrist...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 09:35:03 AM by jzb11 »

jzb11

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #159 on: February 02, 2015, 09:35:51 AM »
In my opinion, homeschooling FTW.

College: 12-16 hours/week of class
High school: 6:45 to 2:15 every day. Roughly 35 hour/week of class.

When I started university, I remember telling myself that I was ready for this schedule four years ago, and how much of a giant fucking waste of time high school was.

My personal opinion is that public schools are a day care for teenagers. There's so much wasted time, and so little learned.

Not only that, but there's a lot of bullshit that students put up with that they don't in the real world. Bullying is a great example. If you lay your finger on me in the real world, your ass is going to jail. Of course, I could choose to beat the shit out of you in self defense, and not be punished for it either. Unlike my public school system with it's 0 tolerance policy on violence, which meant that the victim got punished just as harshly as the bully for retaliating - Seriously, what kind of bullshit is that?

Anyway I'm speaking anectdotally here, but all of the people I went to university with that were home schooled were excellent students on full scholarships. They were also independent, critical thinkers, and had always had some sort of job. Their parents were intelligent/hardworking/frugal as well.

If I have kids, I would prefer to homeschool them by far. Public schools are a joke.

Really though, I'll continue the rant on bullying. You don't punish victims for fighting back, and if you really cared about stopping bullying you'd expel the bullies! Of course, it's funny that the bullies get to stick around and never seem to receive more than a slap on the wrist...

mallerina

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #160 on: February 02, 2015, 11:03:53 AM »


I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but the majority of homeschooling in this country still seems to be rooted in some kind of religious/moral orthodoxy that parents use to teach their children their very narrow worldview and that any abberations from that view are heretical/sinful/immoral. This probably doesn't apply to most of the people that read this forum, but I have to state it.


TL:DR- my issues with homeschooling are emotional development, socialization, and subject matter expertise. Please clarify/confirm my thoughts, as they are not meant to be inflammatory.

Background: I'm not a homeschooler but I hope to start when my daughter reaches pre-k age later this year. I've been doing a ton of research on the topic to make sure it's a good fit for my family. I'm also in a graduate program working toward teacher certification (which sadly only makes me want to homeschool more because of what I've seen in public schools.)

Your assertion about why people choose to homeschool: according to data from the National Center for Education Statistics, during the 2011-2012 school year, religious reasons were fourth in the list of reasons families homeschool. The majority of families (25%) said they homeschool because of concern about environment (meaning safety, drugs or negative peer pressure), while 21% cited other reasons (listed as time, finances travel and distance). The third highest category was dissatisfaction with academic instruction, which was the reason for 19% of families. Interestingly only 16% of families homeschool for the desire to provide religious instruction, and 5% to provide moral instruction.

Another part of your post I wanted to touch on was subject matter expertise. I don't think most homeschool parents operate under the assumption that one (or both) parents will be the sole source of knowledge for their student. There are co-ops that meet to receive whole group instruction in some subjects. There are tutors, online classes, and local resources (colleges, enthusiasts) and I think many homeschool families rely heavily upon outside resources for the tricky subjects once you get beyond the basics.

As far as the emotional development, I see kids every day in the public school setting who think they are speshul sneauxflakes and think the world revolves around them. That's more of a parenting issue and not an issue of what educational setting they find themselves in.

Lastly, the socialization issue is so played out and over discussed. Since you're an adult, have you recently been forced to socialize with other adults the exact same age as you? It's just so weird to me that people's definition of socialization is the school setting, in which we cram 30 eight year olds into a room and think it makes them socially competent. I'd like to believe that my daughters will get ample socialization through our family friendships, volunteer work, extracurricular activities, and life in general. I don't see how forcing her to be around other 4 year olds will make her more social than allowing her to communicate daily with people ranging in age from 2-99.

Edited to fix missing parenthesis.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:05:52 AM by mallerina »

Zikoris

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #161 on: February 02, 2015, 11:15:49 AM »
I was homeschooled due to the much higher quality of education initially, and later because I lived in a remote area with a school that only went to grade 9. I've known a number of other homeschoolers as well, and those were very common reasons.

It's good to differentiate between different types of homeschooling for these discussions. I did the type that's government run, where you get textbooks and assignments mailed to you, work through them yourself, mail or email your work to your teachers, and write supervised exams at approved places (schools, police stations, churches, etc). You have the same curriculum as other students, though with a fair bit more flexibility - you get to choose between several books to study for English, for example, and the Art program allows you to choose a few modules out of many options (painting, photography, drawing, etc) to have a course completely customized to your interests. You graduate with the same credentials as normal students.

On the other end you have Unschoolers like my cousin. I don't think she actually teaches her kids anything.

The people I've known who homeschooled for religious reasons still used a fairly normal curriculum with lessons that they worked through  - it wasn't just up to the parents.


Cpa Cat

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #162 on: February 02, 2015, 11:19:42 AM »
I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but the majority of homeschooling in this country still seems to be rooted in some kind of religious/moral orthodoxy that parents use to teach their children their very narrow worldview and that any abberations from that view are heretical/sinful/immoral. This probably doesn't apply to most of the people that read this forum, but I have to state it.

Here is a quick table (it's for 2011-2012, but I couldn't find anything more recent).

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013028/tables/table_08.asp

67% identify religion as an important factor, but only 16% identify it as the most important factor. 91% identify "environment of schools" to be the most important factor (the question was: "You are concerned about the school environment, such as safety, drugs, or negative peer pressure?"). I suppose negative peer pressure could involve sin - so definitely open to interpretation. Also, I think it's important not to assume that all religious homeschoolers are practicing extreme points of view.

Nevertheless, you are correct that religion is a factor for the majority of homeschoolers. But note - that number has declined over time. I don't think there's any reason to dismiss homeschooling just because in the past, religious people have dominated that arena. "You shouldn't homeschool because that's what crazy religious people do" isn't a strong argument against an individual's choice to homeschool!

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Third is expertise, especially at older levels.

I don't think this is as much an issue as you think it is. In many homeschooling programs, the parent is more like a facilitator. There are many resources that allow students to view webinars/lectures given by experts. There are also options for homeschoolers to enroll in live classes that are provided within the public school system or at community colleges.

I, too, went to public school. But looking back, from Grade 9-13 (we had Grade 13 in Ontario), I spent 25% of my time in school learning and 75% of my time staring into space, waiting for everyone else to catch up. I can see how I would have strongly benefited from more advanced/speedier independent learning opportunities.

I'm ambivalent about the rest of your points - so I've chosen to skip them for brevity.

projekt

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #163 on: February 02, 2015, 11:20:22 AM »
The fact that everyone is quickly and harshly condemning BeginninginWisedom is exactly why in a free society home-schooling is and should be permissible.
Harshly condemning? I was questioning the phrasing of "schools aggressively teach evolution." To make such a statement followed by "I love science" is very strange.

Schools don't aggressively teach evolution. They teach biology, which makes little sense nowadays without it. There may be some small part of biology that can be studied without it, but it would be exactly like studying physics without allowing yourself the benefit of Newtonian mechanics. You can get somewhere, like Kepler did describing the orbits of the planets, but without the theory of gravitation, you couldn't say that the reason for the orbits is the same as the reason an apple falls to the ground. If you want to tell your kid that evolution happens because God commands it, that's fine, but you should at least let them learn biology as it is practiced.

I think schools should teach Physics as physicists would teach it, and Biology as biologists would teach it. Doing so is not treating a theory as a religion.

And disagreement is not condemnation.

eyePod

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #164 on: February 02, 2015, 12:15:46 PM »
Back on topic - bright kids have issues in school, they often look like ADD but the problem is boredom - I was lucky in that we had gifted programs in elementary school and streaming in high school.  My DD got to do a lot of extra reading in elementary, and the extra benefit of her French private HS was that not only did she become bilingual, they had streaming!  None of the available public high schools did.

I can relate to this. We had gifted programs where everyone learned a lot, but I wanted to talk the entire time while learning too. Still did fine. I was constantly bored and now a days, I'm sure I would have been diagnosed with ADD.

jsloan

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #165 on: February 02, 2015, 12:52:32 PM »
I have a hypothetical question:  lets pretend that homeschooling/charter schools were banned tomorrow or we had a system similar to Germany as described in this thread.  Would it make public school better because people would be forced to work within the system?     

Cpa Cat

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #166 on: February 02, 2015, 01:03:24 PM »
I have a hypothetical question:  lets pretend that homeschooling/charter schools were banned tomorrow or we had a system similar to Germany as described in this thread.  Would it make public school better because people would be forced to work within the system?   

I think it would be a net negative.

Highly religious homeschoolers: I went to public school with some very religious people. They were frequently disruptive. At the instruction of their parents, they would stage walk outs when topics turned to things they didn't want to learn. They also had a tendency to try to re-direct classroom conversations toward their personal beliefs. Our teachers were always very respectful, and other students did get some insight into how these people thought, but overall it was a distraction.

Special needs homeschoolers: Assuming the same amount of education spending, resources would need to be taken away from average students and redirected to programs specially designed for these students. If that didn't happen, special-needs students would not receive the same level of education that they would be provided at home. If they have behavioral problems, that becomes a distraction in the classroom.

Gifted homeschoolers: At best, these students mostly just sit around bored all the time. At worst, they become disruptive in a normal classroom.

Bullied homeschoolers: If the school environment is destructive enough that these kids have been pulled out of school, then it's difficult to see how anyone would benefit from forcing them to attend. That would be potentially dangerous and emotionally harmful.

I think the issue is that homeschooling works for people because those people can't or won't fit neatly into a one-size-fits-all school system. One-size-fits-all provides the cheapest and most efficient education to roughly 95% of the population. Trying to shoe-horn the other 5% into that system only makes it less efficient. That's just my personal opinion though - I'm not a social scientist who has done research on the issue.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 01:05:31 PM by Cpa Cat »

iwasjustwondering

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #167 on: February 02, 2015, 01:16:15 PM »
You don't know what you don't know.  Homeschooling is inherently limiting, because the child is limited to what the parents already know or seek out.  I'd much rather have my kids leave the house and go out into the world and learn unexpected things.  I can tell myself that I can learn physics well enough to teach my child physics, but quite frankly there is a limit to what I can learn before it's time to start teaching.  I'd rather set him up with someone who has actually studied the thing and has expressed a lifelong interest in it. 

I would also not send my kids to a bad public school.  It's the hill I die on in this life.  But then I have actually sent a kid to Latin camp for the summer, so I'm an outlier.

UnleashHell

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #168 on: February 02, 2015, 01:40:46 PM »
You don't know what you don't know. 

so learn it. there are books. Grade and subject specific books

Homeschooling is inherently limiting, because the child is limited to what the parents already know or seek out.
yes you are right. if the parents or kids don't search out new things then they won't learn them. Isn't it lucky that parents and kids can do this with the assistance of home school groups and book fairs, book shops, libraries and the internet. for starters.

  I'd much rather have my kids leave the house and go out into the world and learn unexpected things.

I think my kids left the house far more frequently as homeschoolers (I'm not counting a journey to school as "leaving the house") and were able to experience a lot that wasn't in such a rigid learning environment as a school classroom.


  I can tell myself that I can learn physics well enough to teach my child physics, but quite frankly there is a limit to what I can learn before it's time to start teaching.  I'd rather set him up with someone who has actually studied the thing and has expressed a lifelong interest in it. 

so if you can't learn a subject - find someone who will. or pay for it. or go online. don't be acting like its impossible


I would also not send my kids to a bad public school.  It's the hill I die on in this life.  But then I have actually sent a kid to Latin camp for the summer, so I'm an outlier.

and if you live in a bad public school district then what.... you have to do what you can - including homeschool.


one more thing - in the state we lived in then each home schooled kid had to be registered to a school - that way the school could still get the benefit of the city tax per student.. because technically they had to provide lessons if asked.. nice bonus for the schools that never saw these kids..


Zikoris

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #169 on: February 02, 2015, 01:59:53 PM »
I think the value of homeschooling for special needs students is often overlooked also. I have a cousin who's severely autistic and was homeschooled since about third or fourth grade. She was bullied horribly in school because she had to wear diapers, had no social skills, could get violent, etc. There was also no benefit of her being in school - she couldn't begin to grasp the stuff she was learning. Finally my aunt put her into sort of a life skills program where she learned to do very simple things. She's a young adult now and one day she might be able to live in a group home somewhat independently. Her life was made so much better by being pulled out of school and spending her time learning the things she was capable of learning.

mxt0133

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #170 on: February 02, 2015, 02:14:36 PM »
On the other end you have Unschoolers like my cousin. I don't think she actually teaches her kids anything.

For some people that are self-directed they don't actually need "teachers" some people can self-study and learn most things on their own.  Like most adults in the DIY community they can learn without having a formal teacher.  The idea that people need an actual "teacher" to learn anything is pretty ridiculous.  Is it as efficient, maybe not but it can be done.

I think most people can learn things on their own if given the right motivation and access to the relevant material.  Just listen to this Ted talk about kids in India that were given access to a computer and taught themselves how to use it without a "teacher."

http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_shows_how_kids_teach_themselves?language=en

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #171 on: February 02, 2015, 02:38:09 PM »
The fact that everyone is quickly and harshly condemning BeginninginWisedom is exactly why in a free society home-schooling is and should be permissible.

Hi Magnum, thanks for the kind words.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #172 on: February 02, 2015, 02:44:28 PM »
OK, Unleashell, your bias is showing here big time. In light of extremely good academic results from homeschooling, you choose to curse and try to degreed me for praying.


you made it sound as if your whole preparation for home schooling was based purely upon praying.

I think that a little planning helps...


- I couldn't agree with you more.  It seems like it would be more efficient and cheaper for individuals and society to improve the schools rather than run away from them (but expect public $ support)  That said, in very, very rare occasions, I can see a need.

and would you leave your child in an underfunded school system for years while you push for more funding? Or take action that is in your hands to do so?

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #173 on: February 02, 2015, 02:45:23 PM »

Thank you for clearing that up. God would never honor a sluggards work. I could not pray to God and then do nothing. In faith, believing God hears my prayer, I work hard knowing He is for me!

I've noticed, and I could be wrong, but a lot of us,me included,tend to assume the worst  about people when we disagree with them. We even make up things about them to add to our feeling of contempt for them. This is unfortunate, but can be remedied with effort to ask the person questions to see if our assumptions are true or false.

I noticed on another post that someone assumed I didn't want Newton's Laws of Motion taught or other great scientists' work. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Newton was a great scientist and a Christian who believed in Creation. See the Wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton

We read biographies of most of the great scientists, many of whom are Christian.

I do not agree with Evolution, but that does not mean I don't believe in many, many scientific principles. It is false to assume that.

Thanks for addressing this, and ask questions. It helps when trying to understand a different point of view.

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #174 on: February 02, 2015, 03:12:11 PM »

I do not agree with Evolution, but that does not mean I don't believe in many, many scientific principles. It is false to assume that.


You are ruling out a gigantic chunk of biology if you ignore evolution as well as denigrating the work of a number of scientists from many religious faiths.

Did you get a chance to read up on the ecoli evolution experiment? It represents over 25 years of study and experimentation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

LennStar

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #175 on: February 02, 2015, 03:34:12 PM »
I have a hypothetical question:  lets pretend that homeschooling/charter schools were banned tomorrow or we had a system similar to Germany as described in this thread.  Would it make public school better because people would be forced to work within the system?   
I dont think that question is even valid, because the 2 things are not directly connected.
Any change would have to come from people - and right we are in a very complex situation of parents, teachers and politicians.
If people are forced in the system, maybe they start changing it?
Or teachers resist these meddlesome parents and it gets even worse?
And and and....

Quote
I've noticed, and I could be wrong, but a lot of us,me included,tend to assume the worst  about people when we disagree with them. We even make up things about them to add to our feeling of contempt for them. This is unfortunate, but can be remedied with effort to ask the person questions to see if our assumptions are true or false.
I wanted to post that link anway, you gave me context in a way ;)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney

mxt0133

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #176 on: February 02, 2015, 06:00:48 PM »
@mapleseed - Thank you for the detailed response.  Sometimes it's extremely difficult to explain the same things over and over when you are going against the grain.  I really feel that if people actually took the time to learn and meet actual homeschoolers/unschoolers they can answer most of their questions and concerns themselves.  Another advantage of not always having a 'teacher' available to a child to answer a question and let the child exercise some critical thinking.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:01:41 PM by mxt0133 »

RetiredAt63

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #177 on: February 02, 2015, 06:31:07 PM »
Quick comments - Zikoris, what you describe is what I have always heard of as "distance education".  The education (content, resources, people to answer questions) is provided by a school, the student is just not physically present.  This means the school board/province still has the final say for curriculum. Universities also do this.

For Projekt, Annamal and BeginningInWisdom, these are the thoughts of an amazing biologist/Christian.  Well worth reading if you haven't already.

Overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution
Transcription: http://www.2think.org/dobzhansky.shtml

 

Eric

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #178 on: February 02, 2015, 06:31:19 PM »
I do not agree with Evolution, but that does not mean I don't believe in many, many scientific principles. It is false to assume that.

Ha!  I imagine that you just tell antibiotic resistant bacteria that you "do not agree" with their existence, and therefore they cease to exist.  It's a miracle!

iwasjustwondering

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #179 on: February 02, 2015, 08:27:12 PM »
You don't know what you don't know. 

so learn it. there are books. Grade and subject specific books

Homeschooling is inherently limiting, because the child is limited to what the parents already know or seek out.
yes you are right. if the parents or kids don't search out new things then they won't learn them. Isn't it lucky that parents and kids can do this with the assistance of home school groups and book fairs, book shops, libraries and the internet. for starters.

  I'd much rather have my kids leave the house and go out into the world and learn unexpected things.

I think my kids left the house far more frequently as homeschoolers (I'm not counting a journey to school as "leaving the house") and were able to experience a lot that wasn't in such a rigid learning environment as a school classroom.


  I can tell myself that I can learn physics well enough to teach my child physics, but quite frankly there is a limit to what I can learn before it's time to start teaching.  I'd rather set him up with someone who has actually studied the thing and has expressed a lifelong interest in it. 

so if you can't learn a subject - find someone who will. or pay for it. or go online. don't be acting like its impossible


I would also not send my kids to a bad public school.  It's the hill I die on in this life.  But then I have actually sent a kid to Latin camp for the summer, so I'm an outlier.

and if you live in a bad public school district then what.... you have to do what you can - including homeschool.


one more thing - in the state we lived in then each home schooled kid had to be registered to a school - that way the school could still get the benefit of the city tax per student.. because technically they had to provide lessons if asked.. nice bonus for the schools that never saw these kids..

No, you can't just go learn it.  That's why I said that you don't know what you don't know.  People have blind spots in their knowledge.  If you go to a library and pick out a book, you are selecting that book.  You're still choosing what knowledge you need to acquire.  To truly expand your knowledge, you have to meet other people who know more than you.  Other people can point out gaps in your knowledge.  These people are called teachers. 

And I would not live in a bad school district. 


caliq

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #180 on: February 02, 2015, 08:37:00 PM »
You don't know what you don't know. 

so learn it. there are books. Grade and subject specific books

Homeschooling is inherently limiting, because the child is limited to what the parents already know or seek out.
yes you are right. if the parents or kids don't search out new things then they won't learn them. Isn't it lucky that parents and kids can do this with the assistance of home school groups and book fairs, book shops, libraries and the internet. for starters.

  I'd much rather have my kids leave the house and go out into the world and learn unexpected things.

I think my kids left the house far more frequently as homeschoolers (I'm not counting a journey to school as "leaving the house") and were able to experience a lot that wasn't in such a rigid learning environment as a school classroom.


  I can tell myself that I can learn physics well enough to teach my child physics, but quite frankly there is a limit to what I can learn before it's time to start teaching.  I'd rather set him up with someone who has actually studied the thing and has expressed a lifelong interest in it. 

so if you can't learn a subject - find someone who will. or pay for it. or go online. don't be acting like its impossible


I would also not send my kids to a bad public school.  It's the hill I die on in this life.  But then I have actually sent a kid to Latin camp for the summer, so I'm an outlier.

and if you live in a bad public school district then what.... you have to do what you can - including homeschool.


one more thing - in the state we lived in then each home schooled kid had to be registered to a school - that way the school could still get the benefit of the city tax per student.. because technically they had to provide lessons if asked.. nice bonus for the schools that never saw these kids..

No, you can't just go learn it.  That's why I said that you don't know what you don't know.  People have blind spots in their knowledge.  If you go to a library and pick out a book, you are selecting that book.  You're still choosing what knowledge you need to acquire.  To truly expand your knowledge, you have to meet other people who know more than you.  Other people can point out gaps in your knowledge.  These people are called teachers. 

And I would not live in a bad school district.

Homeschooled kids have access to "teachers" in the form of mentors, tutors, other parents, various programs (formal and informal) on the internet, and even college professors once the kids get to that level.

Plus, any reasonably well educated parent with a degree from a US university is going to have taken a wide variety of general education courses, which will at least give them an idea of what they need to brush up on or outsource. 

Just because you wouldn't be confident in your own ability to teach your children on a variety of topics doesn't mean that others can't be. 

You're ignoring the fact that there are loads of resources out there for parents who homeschool, about what and how to teach.  It's not like Mr. and Mrs. Jones just sit down one day and go, "well Jr, you're not going to school today and ummmm...well...you normally learn history right?  Did you know Abe Lincoln wore a top hat?"  There's significant preparation and effort put into it by parents who do it properly.

mxt0133

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #181 on: February 02, 2015, 10:26:43 PM »
No, you can't just go learn it.  That's why I said that you don't know what you don't know.  People have blind spots in their knowledge.  If you go to a library and pick out a book, you are selecting that book.  You're still choosing what knowledge you need to acquire.  To truly expand your knowledge, you have to meet other people who know more than you.  Other people can point out gaps in your knowledge.  These people are called teachers.

Based on your logic how are new discoveries made then?  How did Newton come up with classical mechanics and the three laws of motion?  How did Einstein develop the theory of relativity?  No one before them had that knowledge and if they did where did they learn it from?

It seem pretty absurd that people can't learn new knowledge with out teachers.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #182 on: February 03, 2015, 05:36:40 AM »
I do not agree with Evolution, but that does not mean I don't believe in many, many scientific principles. It is false to assume that.

Ha!  I imagine that you just tell antibiotic resistant bacteria that you "do not agree" with their existence, and therefore they cease to exist.  It's a miracle!


Hi, truly the problem here is on me. I have failed to communicate clearly what I disagree with regarding evolution. I will get back here later this week to explain.

I do agree with micr evolution, let me clarify- as far as I understand it. I do not agree with evolution regarding the origins of man.


BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #183 on: February 03, 2015, 05:39:33 AM »

I do not agree with Evolution, but that does not mean I don't believe in many, many scientific principles. It is false to assume that.


You are ruling out a gigantic chunk of biology if you ignore evolution as well as denigrating the work of a number of scientists from many religious faiths.

Did you get a chance to read up on the ecoli evolution experiment? It represents over 25 years of study and experimentation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

See above post. I will address this later. It is my fault for not communicating clearly.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #184 on: February 03, 2015, 05:43:41 AM »
I have a hypothetical question:  lets pretend that homeschooling/charter schools were banned tomorrow or we had a system similar to Germany as described in this thread.  Would it make public school better because people would be forced to work within the system?   
I dont think that question is even valid, because the 2 things are not directly connected.
Any change would have to come from people - and right we are in a very complex situation of parents, teachers and politicians.
If people are forced in the system, maybe they start changing it?
Or teachers resist these meddlesome parents and it gets even worse?
And and and....

Quote
I've noticed, and I could be wrong, but a lot of us,me included,tend to assume the worst  about people when we disagree with them. We even make up things about them to add to our feeling of contempt for them. This is unfortunate, but can be remedied with effort to ask the person questions to see if our assumptions are true or false.
I wanted to post that link anway, you gave me context in a way ;)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney

I will read this and get back to you this weekend.

Here are 2 wee
bsites regarding Creation Science: https://answersingenesis.org/

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #185 on: February 03, 2015, 05:45:40 AM »
http://www.icr.org/ Website on Creation Science

jsloan

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #186 on: February 03, 2015, 07:12:47 AM »
I have a hypothetical question:  lets pretend that homeschooling/charter schools were banned tomorrow or we had a system similar to Germany as described in this thread.  Would it make public school better because people would be forced to work within the system?   

I think it would be a net negative.

Highly religious homeschoolers: I went to public school with some very religious people. They were frequently disruptive. At the instruction of their parents, they would stage walk outs when topics turned to things they didn't want to learn. They also had a tendency to try to re-direct classroom conversations toward their personal beliefs. Our teachers were always very respectful, and other students did get some insight into how these people thought, but overall it was a distraction.

Special needs homeschoolers: Assuming the same amount of education spending, resources would need to be taken away from average students and redirected to programs specially designed for these students. If that didn't happen, special-needs students would not receive the same level of education that they would be provided at home. If they have behavioral problems, that becomes a distraction in the classroom.

Gifted homeschoolers: At best, these students mostly just sit around bored all the time. At worst, they become disruptive in a normal classroom.

Bullied homeschoolers: If the school environment is destructive enough that these kids have been pulled out of school, then it's difficult to see how anyone would benefit from forcing them to attend. That would be potentially dangerous and emotionally harmful.

I think the issue is that homeschooling works for people because those people can't or won't fit neatly into a one-size-fits-all school system. One-size-fits-all provides the cheapest and most efficient education to roughly 95% of the population. Trying to shoe-horn the other 5% into that system only makes it less efficient. That's just my personal opinion though - I'm not a social scientist who has done research on the issue.

Thanks for the reply, these are some great observations.  Do schools not offer separate programs anymore for gifted or special needs kids?  When I was in school we had a separate area school for special needs kids (autistic, down syndrome, etc).  These schools employed physiologists and other specialists that would presumably have more knowledge than a parent when dealing with behavioral issues and learning disabilities.  It was a county wide school and they worked with individual school districts to help kids who were identified as needing special attention.   

We also had lots of gifted programs for kids that performed well.  A good friend of mine from high school (side note: he was our valedictorian who attended MIT to be an polymer scientist and then switched careers to be a screen writer in LA), never complained to me about being bored or disengaged with school.  He was always involved in programs like odyssey of the mind, etc inside and outside of school along with taking college classes in high school.  We also had high level physics and math classes at my high school. 

I know this is anecdotal, but was my school district able to accommodate the 5% better?  We were not even a rich school district, it was solidly middle with a bit of upper middle class (lots of engineers close by due to a very large employer).  Does homeschooling enable communities to no longer provide these services? 

sabertooth3

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #187 on: February 03, 2015, 07:23:15 AM »
Hi sabertooth3,

Below is my perspective on the concerns you brought up...

Edited for length; thanks for the thoughtful response. I do think that there's so much information out there on the internet through lots of programs that people have named above and others like Coursera that homeschooling could very well be much more viable today than it used to be.

One clarifying point- I certainly didn't mean to imply that all homeschooled kids are insulated and are their parent's "special snowflakes". There are hordes of children that go to public, private, and parochial schools that are all very much the stereotypical entitled whiny kids. My concern was basically just mixing with other kinds of kids, which a couple of posters have addressed. Thanks all!

UnleashHell

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #188 on: February 03, 2015, 07:36:48 AM »

I will read this and get back to you this weekend.

Here are 2 wee
bsites regarding Creation Science: https://answersingenesis.org/

http://noanswersingenesis.org.au/

Cpa Cat

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #189 on: February 03, 2015, 07:49:52 AM »
Thanks for the reply, these are some great observations.  Do schools not offer separate programs anymore for gifted or special needs kids?  When I was in school we had a separate area school for special needs kids (autistic, down syndrome, etc).  These schools employed physiologists and other specialists that would presumably have more knowledge than a parent when dealing with behavioral issues and learning disabilities.

By law, all students are entitled to an education. So school districts must find a way to accomodate special needs children, no matter what. Gifted programs are also offered within the public school system, but they tend to be geographically dependent. A gifted program isn't necessary to provide an education, so it tends to end up on the chopping block if the budget is tight. You also need to have enough gifted children available to make a gifted program worthwhile - as such, larger cities are far more likely to have them.

The quality of the special needs program also depends on the district. I've known people who chose to move in order to get their special needs child into a better special needs program, because their current district wasn't meeting their child's needs, but a different one employed someone who specialized in their child's disability. Not all families have that option. Furthermore, the resources that are available for special needs children are limited. If your child's disability is too extreme for the district to handle, you're kind of stuck. And on the opposite end of the spectrum - what if your child's disability is too severe for a normal classroom, but not as severe as many of the children in the special school/class. Now the child's needs might get neglected because they are easier to deal with than other children.

This past year, I was in a Grade 6 classroom doing a seminar. There was a child who clearly had a disability of some sort that had been mainstreamed into a normal classroom. He had to sit alone, separated from the other children, facing a corner, with a computer monitor that displayed what was on the class projector. He wasn't allowed to look at anything else. When we tried to put the kids into groups, we were told that he was not able to participate. Naturally, he got bored while everyone else was having fun and learning, and he was ultimately removed from the classroom when he acted out. We lost about 10 minutes of class time while the teacher tried to control him. After he was gone, one of the other kids said, "Don't worry, it's not your fault. That happens every day."

I think about that kid when I think about that kid when I think about homeschooled special needs kids. Not disabled enough for a special class, but not normal enough for a normal class. I am sure the school district was doing its best to accomodate him - but it was clearly falling short for all of the children in that classroom. If his parents had the means to do so, I suspect that this would be the sort of child who would benefit strongly from homeschooling.

iwasjustwondering

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #190 on: February 03, 2015, 08:28:03 AM »
No, you can't just go learn it.  That's why I said that you don't know what you don't know.  People have blind spots in their knowledge.  If you go to a library and pick out a book, you are selecting that book.  You're still choosing what knowledge you need to acquire.  To truly expand your knowledge, you have to meet other people who know more than you.  Other people can point out gaps in your knowledge.  These people are called teachers.

Based on your logic how are new discoveries made then?  How did Newton come up with classical mechanics and the three laws of motion?  How did Einstein develop the theory of relativity?  No one before them had that knowledge and if they did where did they learn it from?

It seem pretty absurd that people can't learn new knowledge with out teachers.

Your examples are absurd.  Einstein was classically educated at the best schools in Europe.  He attended Luitpold Gymnasium, and then studied at ETH Zurich.  He completed his PhD under the tutelage of Alfred Kleiner at University of zurich.  He became a professor in Berlin and Prague, and lectured all over the U.S..  All his life, he lectured and taught at the university level. 

Thank God he didn't think he could achieve anything by sitting at home with a book.

mak1277

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #191 on: February 03, 2015, 08:40:40 AM »
School itself proves that you don't need to be a subject-matter expert to teach the subject.

Many of my teachers had a very limited understanding of the material they were assigned to teach, often limited to what was in the textbook. Sometimes they weren't even familiar with the contents of the textbook.


I'm glad someone brought this up.  I've been sitting here rolling my eyes at the implication that elementary/high school teachers are somehow paragons of knowledge.  Sure, there are certainly highly qualified teachers out there, but even in good (rich) districts, there are plenty of teachers who are of average or below average intelligence and ability. 

If a parent has the intelligence, time and dedication to teach their children at home, I am much more confident that those children will be taught more effectively than if they were thrown into a random public school.

Zikoris

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #192 on: February 03, 2015, 09:04:19 AM »
I'm glad people have mentioned the value of self-study. As someone who switched back and forth between homeschool and regular a few times, I always felt that I learned most stuff outside of school, and going to class was kind of pointless. I was one of the many here whose parents taught me to read and do simple math before even starting school, so the first few years were a complete waste. I remember as a seventh grader campaigning to my parents to just write the GED (high school equivalency exam) and not bother with any more school (they switched me back to distance ed/homeschool again after that).

LadyDriver

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #193 on: February 03, 2015, 10:17:25 AM »
My sister teaches middle school math and science.

She has some "precious flowers" that she wishes were homeschooled.

mxt0133

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #194 on: February 03, 2015, 10:26:24 AM »
Your examples are absurd.  Einstein was classically educated at the best schools in Europe.  He attended Luitpold Gymnasium, and then studied at ETH Zurich.  He completed his PhD under the tutelage of Alfred Kleiner at University of zurich.  He became a professor in Berlin and Prague, and lectured all over the U.S..  All his life, he lectured and taught at the university level.

I guess you are definitely one of those that cannot learn anything new without the need for a "teacher."  So I'll be the "teacher" in this case.  I did not say that Einstein or Newton did not have teachers.  But with regard to your comment:

"No, you can't just go learn it.  That's why I said that you don't know what you don't know.  People have blind spots in their knowledge.  If you go to a library and pick out a book, you are selecting that book.  You're still choosing what knowledge you need to acquire.  To truly expand your knowledge, you have to meet other people who know more than you.  Other people can point out gaps in your knowledge.  These people are called teachers."

You are stating that for someone to expand their knowledge you need to meet other people who have more knowledge.  In Einstein's particular case how did he develop the theory of relativity?  No one else knew more about it that he did as not one had discovered it yet?  So by your statement there is no way he could have learned it.  My question is how did he gain that knowledge if no one else had more knowledge about it than he did? 

What I am trying to point out is that new knowledge is gained through self reflection and discovery, even if it is built on top of existing knowledge.  Einstein did not have anyone teach to him the theory of relativity, because it was not developed yet.  So if Einstein did not have a "teacher" that had more knowledge than him with regard to the theory of relativity, then he must have developed and gained it through self-study.

Please find a "teacher" if you need further help understanding.

LennStar

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #195 on: February 03, 2015, 01:24:13 PM »
Here are 2 websites regarding Creation Science: https://answersingenesis.org/
"A non-Christian is not neutral."
You dont need to read further then that single sentence.
The whole website is a "all are against us, we are victims, but we know THIS is the answer" make that has nothing to do with science.
From the 4 examples of "proof" given I know that 2 were proven wrong (as proofs) years ago, and a third I think is another one.

Quote
Quote
You're still choosing what knowledge you need to acquire.  To truly expand your knowledge, you have to meet other people who know more than you.  Other people can point out gaps in your knowledge.  These people are called teachers."

You are stating that for someone to expand their knowledge you need to meet other people who have more knowledge.  In Einstein's particular case how did he develop the theory of relativity?  No one else knew more about it that he did as not one had discovered it yet?
Now, children, who can name the fallacy used here? :D

projekt

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #196 on: February 04, 2015, 05:08:06 AM »
This is unfortunate, but can be remedied with effort to ask the person questions to see if our assumptions are true or false.

I noticed on another post that someone assumed I didn't want Newton's Laws of Motion taught or other great scientists' work.

That's amusing, because I never assumed you didn't want physics to be taught. I assumed the opposite, i.e., that you'd definitely want physics to be taught. I was merely pointing out that it is not "aggressive" to teach a subject as it is practiced.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #197 on: February 04, 2015, 05:33:30 AM »
This is unfortunate, but can be remedied with effort to ask the person questions to see if our assumptions are true or false.

I noticed on another post that someone assumed I didn't want Newton's Laws of Motion taught or other great scientists' work.

That's amusing, because I never assumed you didn't want physics to be taught. I assumed the opposite, i.e., that you'd definitely want physics to be taught. I was merely pointing out that it is not "aggressive" to teach a subject as it is practiced.

Projekt, you are right! I do owe you an apology. I am assuming, as I dont have time to verify, you are the one who started the post "You say you love science". I read the beginning of your post, skimmed the rest, and assumed the worst. Please forgive me for doing to you what I hate to be done to me.


I have a lot more to say on all  that we have been discussing in this forum, but I do not have time to give it the attention it deserves until this weekend.

This apology could not wait though.

Thanks, Projekt for calling me up short. It will remind me to be more thorough in the future.

Worsted Skeins

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #198 on: February 04, 2015, 05:57:49 AM »
As the parent of a formerly-homeschooled/well-functioning twenty something, I have a few comments on this topic. But I enter these waters with trepidation.

We live in an area of great natural beauty but mediocre public schools.  My husband and I are well educated and curious sorts who consider ourselves life long learners.  Homeschooling began when my son was in 7th grade.  We gave him options of attending the local high school.  To be honest, if the early college school now in our district had been open when he was a student, we would have been considered sending him there.  But he had one public option or a very pricey private school 30 miles away.

Homeschooling suited our lifestyle in that we could travel.  My son was a rural kid who learned how to use the London Tube and the DC metro, how to share a hostel's cooking facilities, how to program/sew/solder--as well as the book stuff.  As a high schooler he earned college credits via dual enrollment at the community college and through AP classes. At the age of fifteen he found a mentor who later wrote a great letter of recommendation for his college apps. He was accepted at the six colleges to which he applied; the school he attended gave him a large merit aid scholarship.  That same mentor helped him find employment in his field. 

Ultimately homeschooling gave my son and us flexibility while allowing him to pursue a variety of interests with people of all ages--not just peers and not just educators.  It worked for us.  YMMV.

P.S. Our local public school biology teachers are told to de-emphasize evolution.  I have no idea how they can even teach the subject! 

projekt

  • Bristles
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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #199 on: February 04, 2015, 10:36:30 AM »
Thanks, Projekt for calling me up short. It will remind me to be more thorough in the future.
Apology accepted. I never held you in ill-regard, so don't worry :)

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!