Author Topic: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?  (Read 23804 times)

firewalker

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Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« on: January 14, 2015, 07:04:16 AM »
I see a pattern I don't understand. I know of a few guys who came out of the military financially nowhere and physically not good. Meanwhile I read on this forum of high income military people who are set with retirement pensions, yet they give no indication of live action or related injuries. Any known explanation?

retired?

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2015, 08:00:57 AM »
From the BLS, 17% of the armed forces are officers.  I don't know the percent that see combat or have disabling experiences, but manage to stay in for a while and you'll have a decent pension.

HipGnosis

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2015, 08:15:46 AM »
I don't know the answer because I don't understand the question (and I was in the Air Force for 20 yrs).
The same could be said for any;
industry
social status of family
ethnicity
education
etc...


cdnstache

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2015, 08:23:07 AM »
My wife and I are both in the Air Force and try to live as mustachian as possible. I think the biggest problem is the military gets a lot guys straight out of high school and they get paid well and are sent on courses all over the country and try to live like rockstars. There is no money management programs taught in the military so most guys will buy the newest biggest douchewagon they can find even though the monthly payment is rediculous. I must admit that I fell into this trap and leased (what was I thinking?) a new car about 10 years ago and then bought a motorcycle. My wife and I got married shortly after that and have become more mustachian as each year has passed.

But in the end the military population is supposed to be a slice of the general population so you'll see the full spectrum of money management.

mxer54

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2015, 08:31:22 AM »
I've been in the military for 21 years.  I don't know what "live action or related injuries" has to do with it but I do have an opinion about the finances.  We talk about it all the time.

Military personnel get in a rut...Enlisted and officers...They have a paycheck that hits every two weeks...They live day to day...buying Red Bulls, Monsters, lunches, nice cars, etc...Most don't seem to realize that the end is coming before they know it.  A LOT of them come to the end of their service, after 4 or 20 years and find that they still have debt and no savings.  Then a lot become contractors doing the same type of thing they did before.

It's all part of the "system" that is designed for the sheep in the world if you ask me.  Doesn't take much to think outside of the box and to seperate yourself from the masses...Or maybe it does and that is why we are the minority.  When I talk about saving, I get stupid looks, attitude and sometimes ignored from the older folks that haven't done any planning for the future.  Either way, I'll keep counseling younger Marines on being smart about their money so that maybe one day they will look at the sheep and chuckle like I do.

austin

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2015, 10:16:49 AM »
People's deployment experiences vary. That is probably a big factor.

Another big factor for the money thing is that both stupid/immature people and smart people join the service, and they spend their money accordingly.

caliq

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2015, 10:19:25 AM »
This forum is usually going to give you conformation bias towards the successful and/or thinking portion of the population -- just think about the subject it's designed to address.  So it would be expected that you'd have a different impression of military service from here than you'd get from the general media.

You only get a pension if you serve 20 years.  A lot of people who serve that long are officers, and have gone to college, vs. your stereotypical enlisted that joins up in high school or after a couple years of going nowhere in their early 20s.  As in the general population, educated people are probably more likely to make good decisions involving money.

I think military service can be amazingly beneficial in a personal and financial sense, IF you are cut out for it.  A lot (most?) people aren't.  When you get chewed up and spit out and you're "physically no good," it's kind of hard to be financially stable.  Especially considering the absolute hellhole that the VA system is (for both healthcare and disability benefits).

RogueSqPewPew

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2015, 10:31:03 AM »
As others have said, I don't understand the question very well, but I'll add my comments:

My husband and I are fairly mustachian, and that's not the norm. Right now we're both AD O-3s, no kids yet.  We live in a HCOL area, and so get quite a lot of money for housing.  We are putting a lot away; not as much as we could be, but....a lot.  Many of our peers live in more expensive housing, drive more expensive cars, and shop a lot more.  The plan is to not have to work after we retire. We aren't wed to the idea of retiring out of service, but the odds are pretty good right now.  With that in mind, we have another (me) 11 years and (him) 12 years to sock as much away as possible. 

firewalker

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2015, 10:37:12 AM »
Yes, I can follow the issue of lacking financial discipline. I'm obviously very ignorant on military matters. Doesn't the most dangerous assignment merit a higher reward ... both honorary and financial? Don't those injured in action get a higher pension or something? For what some of those guys went through in one week, they should be set up for life.

IronMan61693

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 10:48:18 AM »
So I am currently in the military and I can shed some light on:

Yes, I can follow the issue of lacking financial discipline. I'm obviously very ignorant on military matters. Doesn't the most dangerous assignment merit a higher reward ... both honorary and financial? Don't those injured in action get a higher pension or something? For what some of those guys went through in one week, they should be set up for life.

That is a lot of should statements that I agree with, those guys that go through a lot SHOULD be set up for life; however, the military is currently really pushing for education of all sorts. Pay is based off a large number of factors but it really boils down to the more education you get (schooling inside and outside of the military) the more pay you get. So, being fluent in other languages, or being trained to do specific things lead to more pay. There is also extra pay for things like being separated from family and things like that; therefore there is a lot of potential to make money in the military, but a lot of it is up to the initiative of the individual soldier. What else are you trying to figure out?

firewalker

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 11:02:38 AM »
No further questions  IronMan. The answer isn't what I was hoping for, but it answers my question.

caliq

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2015, 11:03:33 AM »
Yes, I can follow the issue of lacking financial discipline. I'm obviously very ignorant on military matters. Doesn't the most dangerous assignment merit a higher reward ... both honorary and financial? Don't those injured in action get a higher pension or something? For what some of those guys went through in one week, they should be set up for life.

A pension is different from disability.  I don't know the ins and outs of pensions because my husband only did 5 years, but I believe a pension is taxable and is actually reduced dollar for dollar by any VA disability payments received, which aren't taxable. 

VA disability rates are not really enough to live on without being pretty mustachian unless you get 100%, which is fitting considering the number, but 90% disabled only pays out a little over half of what 100% does; see  http://www.benefits.va.gov/compensation/resources_comp01.asp

It's VERY hard for a veteran to get designated as 100% permanently and totally disabled.  I believe there is a Congresswoman who was a helicopter pilot and crashed/was shot down -- she has multiple amputations and does not get 100% disability. 

To add a personal anecdote:
My husband has an incurable neurological disorder that doesn't respond to medications.  It affects his sleep, muscle control, and causes hallucinations, plus other stuff, and he was told at 29 that it's unsafe for him to drive at all.  Given where we live and the career the Marines trained him for, working is not really an option until he can get training/education in a new field that will allow him to work remotely from home.  The maximum allowable rating from the VA for his disorder is 80%, and they initially gave him a 10% rating.  This is a fairly common occurrence -- veterans get low ratings after years of waiting for an answer and end up giving up because the appeals system is overwhelming.  Cynical people like to say it's because the VA doesn't want to pay out, so they give everyone a lowball rating initially and hope you aren't savvy enough to appeal properly.  The only reason my husband's rating was increased is because I'm studying molecular and cellular biology and am highly interested in neuroscience -- I was able to dive very deeply into the scientific/medical literature surrounding his disability, educate myself on it well beyond any VA doctor we've ever spoken to, and make the case for its' impact on his quality of life and ability to work.  That's not something that most veterans or their caregivers can do, which leads to the 'destitute disabled veteran' situation that you see frequently in the media.  The homelessness and suicide statistics among veterans in the US are appalling :(
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 11:26:47 AM by caliq »

caliq

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2015, 11:37:39 AM »
I think you DH's experience with the VA is fairly common. Unless you have a very well documented service-connected injury and/or disability, like I did and had no problem getting my VA rating as soon as I got out, it can be difficult and take a long time to receive compensation which can leave many disabled Vets who can't work,or can't work at what they trained for, in dire straits. However, the VA will offer retraining (paid) if you can't do a job you were trained to do - and in my case I had to switch career plans because of my disability but able to stay within the same field. They also offer a lot of help in other areas (homelessness, drug addiction, home health care, etc...). But you've got to get your rating first and, as you said, getting that rating can be tough. Going thru places like the DAV can help to get it.

I personally have used the VA hospital for a long time and never really had a problem, but then I've never had any real medical issues that they had to deal with. Have heard the horror stories though - scary stuff.

In DH's case, he was actually diagnosed while in service by a civilian doctor, then when they went to med sep him, the military doctor changed his diagnosis to a non-medically separable disease.  So no separation, served his full 5 years.  He didn't apply to the VA for compensation until 3 years after he got out.  And despite a well documented history of the issue, we still struggled;  personally we worked with MOPH and his VSO was less than helpful.  I can only imagine what it's like for people with less documented disorders and less ability to 'fight the system.'   Vocational rehab is definitely a big benefit the VA provides and he'll be taking advantage of it soon :)  We actually haven't had many issues on the healthcare side -- he doesn't need primary care much and his specialty doctors are part of an Ivy League teaching hospital that works with the local VA.  I know there are many many veterans who are much worse off than he is, and while I'm very grateful for the VA support we get, I can't help but feel negatively towards it when I think of the people who they aren't helping :/  Especially because I can think of a few instances where we were misled on fairly important matters of procedure, and only saved DH's appeal because we were quick enough to catch the errors the VA employees were causing. 


Sorry for derailing your thread a bit, OP! 

Moral of the story: military service/veteran's benefits can be AWESOME if you know how to navigate them properly; unfortunately, the majority of people in the systems don't/can't.

CommonCents

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2015, 11:54:11 AM »
To add to the disability aspect, my dad got a partial disability rating (don't recall exactly - let's say 10%).  Then when he got a further disability diagnosed, connected to his prior problem of say 20%, they wouldn't add 10+20 to get 30.  Instead it became 20% of the 90% remaining, making it 18%, for a total of 28%.  Had they known the second issue was service related at the time of the first diagnosis, it would have been 30%.

So he's partially disabled.  Now, if he had left the service before getting a pension, he would get a disability pay for the 30% disability due to service injuries.  However, he retired after 30 years of service.  How do we reward this hard work and dedication - years of being away from family to rescue stupid people at sea, prevent drug runners etc?  Well Congress, in its infinite wisdom, does not believe he should "double dip" and get a pension AND disability pay (even though they are for different things - one for 30 years service, the other for compensation for the disability that hinders daily life from opening a jar to limiting skiing).  So all he gets is the 28% of his pay tax-free, the disability portion.  (Again numbers not precise and made up.)

He has spondylosis, which is a compression of the spaces between your spinal vertebrae, from the years of vibrations on ships.  He also has had a related heart attack and some other issues.

In regards to the general separation: Lack of good role models.  Lifestyle encourages it.  Hand holding in some areas but no financial education.  Enlisted don't always come with a great educational background.  I can go on.  Most who separate well-off do so do to their own efforts.

caliq

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 12:07:45 PM »
To add to the disability aspect, my dad got a partial disability rating (don't recall exactly - let's say 10%).  Then when he got a further disability diagnosed, connected to his prior problem of say 20%, they wouldn't add 10+20 to get 30.  Instead it became 20% of the 90% remaining, making it 18%, for a total of 28%.  Had they known the second issue was service related at the time of the first diagnosis, it would have been 30%.

Ugh, this is the most frustrating thing.

DH has one 80% service connected, and one 70% connected to that -- so he has 80% + 70% of the remaining 20% = 94%.  Meaning he gets paid at 90% level, not a free and clear 100%, and has to be re-evaluated annually for ability to work/quality of life/work impairment to maintain his unemployable rating and get paid at 100%.  Plus he has two other non-related, but still service connected issues that they rated at 0%...?

I can imagine the pension thing is also very frustrating.  I thought I had read something fairly recently about changes in the works for that but I can't find the exact thing.

However, Google came up with this article: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/11/triple-dipping-thousands-of-veterans-receive-more-than-100000-in-benefits-every-year

Quote
It is not illegal for veterans with a disability rating of at least 50 percent, or those receiving combat-related disability compensation, to collect retirement pay from the Department of Defense, disability compensation from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), and Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) all at the same time. Until 2003, military retirees were prohibited from collecting full Defense Department retirement and VA disability benefits simultaneously. Military retirees eligible for VA disability benefits lost $1 in Defense Department retirement benefits for every $1 in VA disability benefits they collected. The rationale for this offset policy was that concurrent receipt of retirement and disability payments was compensating veterans for the same service twice.

Policy changes in 2004 allowed Defense Department retirees to collect benefits from both programs simultaneously. Advocates for concurrent receipt argued that military retirement and disability benefits compensated veterans for two separate parts of their service and thus should not be mutually exclusive. Since enactment of the concurrent-receipt policy, the share of military retirees who also receive VA disability benefits rose from 33 percent in 2005 to 47 percent in 2013.

Is it possible your dad's benefits aren't being calculated properly?  Of course that article makes it sound like they're trying to change it back again, and maybe they have since November?

TrMama

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2015, 12:27:29 PM »
My experience is as a spouse to a Canadian enlisted member and all the things mentioned above apply here too.

Further exacerbating these issues is that any lender (for anything) who sees you have a paycheck issued by DND will extend ridiculous levels of credit.  For the non-financially savvy this means they can dig themselves into a very deep hole.

caliq

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2015, 12:51:43 PM »


Quote
It is not illegal for veterans with a disability rating of at least 50 percent, or those receiving combat-related disability compensation, to collect retirement pay from the Department of Defense, disability compensation from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), and Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) all at the same time. Until 2003, military retirees were prohibited from collecting full Defense Department retirement and VA disability benefits simultaneously. Military retirees eligible for VA disability benefits lost $1 in Defense Department retirement benefits for every $1 in VA disability benefits they collected. The rationale for this offset policy was that concurrent receipt of retirement and disability payments was compensating veterans for the same service twice.

Policy changes in 2004 allowed Defense Department retirees to collect benefits from both programs simultaneously. Advocates for concurrent receipt argued that military retirement and disability benefits compensated veterans for two separate parts of their service and thus should not be mutually exclusive. Since enactment of the concurrent-receipt policy, the share of military retirees who also receive VA disability benefits rose from 33 percent in 2005 to 47 percent in 2013.

 
While that is good news and more inline with civilian disability or workman's comp disability it kind of sucks for those who are retired after decades of service like Common Cent's Dad and also have a lower rated disablity. Can get the pension but can't get the disability benefit. A disability is a disability and effects your whole life no matter what the percent rating is. You did your time and got injured and should be compensated for that injury. As someone pointed out a bove, you can lose a hand or arm or leg and still only be rated at a 40% disability and receive, if a retiree, no compensation.

Ah, I didn't see the >50% stipulation in there -- that's what I get for skimming and not reading it fully :/

And I agree 15094530458% with you on the rest of what you said!

CommonCents

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2015, 01:55:44 PM »
Commen Cents - I also second getting your Dad's benefits checked as the 28% thing doesn't ring true. In my experience the VA only issues whole number ratings starting at 0% service-connected, 10% service-connect, 20% service-connect and on up. I've never seen or heard of a 5% or 15% let alone a 28%. I have a combined disability, each with a different rating (all ending with a zero) and just added them together. So 10% and 20% is 30% rating. 10% and 30% is 40% rating, etc... Maybe they are adding in compensation for spouse and dependents or something else, like combining with a military pension. You can ask at military.com in their veteran's forum. They have calculators for everything over there and that might be helpful to your Dad. Nords may also know.

Hey Spartana, I don't recall the exact percent as I mentioned above (although it is a lower rated one less than that critical 50% mentioned above), but I thought close to what I posted.  Like caliq described, the % disability rating was a round figure - but the impact on benefits was the non-round figure.  I am seeing him this weekend so I can ask though to make sure I'm understanding and remembering it correctly. 

Villanelle

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2015, 02:22:07 PM »
Comparing military pay and the resulting financial situation is a bit like asking why some people who work for google are rich and others are broke.  (Setting aside for a moment the disability component of this.)  No matter how frugal they are, the janitor is going to have a much more difficult time than the CEO.  There's a wide variety of pay in the military, from low enough to qualify for public assistance up to well into six figures. 

I don't think there is a clear delineation between risk/danger and pay, given that anyone at the same rank makes the same pay, whether they are driving a vehicle at the front of a caravan in the desert and dogging IEDs, or siting at a desk doing HR type work. 

That said, there are special pays for many dangerous jobs, like pilot, explosive ordinance disposal (bomb squad), etc. 


Catbert

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2015, 03:59:20 PM »
Just an antidotal story:

40 years ago I dated an enlisted sailor.  This was before payday loan companies, but not before the concept of payday loans.  Sailors who couldn't wait for payday would borrow from co-workers.  It was 15 for 20, i.e., borrow $15 and payback $20 (even if payday was only 2 days away).  This could be especially lucrative for the lenders on Westpac cruises if port visits were just before paydays.

Some people come back from Westpac broke and others came back with tons of money. 

There are savers and spenders in all occupations.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 05:55:38 PM »
Someone explain this to me...
I am an e5 that dreams of escaping the clutches of the enlisted masses and commissioning to the aristocratic nobility of the officer corp.  Very few of my fellow NCOs have that vision.  They would rather stay on the smaller pay scale and think they would have a more hands on quality of life as an NCO or are getting out real soon.  I've had an XO tell me its not much better.  I've got dollar signs in my eyes looking at the pay scale differences, want the bigger pension, and the prettier dress uniforms. 

Why doesn't everyone else believe the grass is greener on the other side?  What's keeping them back?  I know I got to get more physically competitive before I make another commissioning attempt, but some of these NCOs are PT studs and could rock out the school house.


Brawndo Salesman

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 10:39:05 PM »
Someone explain this to me...

Ok I will.

Navy O-3 here. I think you're describing a characteristic of the culture for just about any organization, let alone the military. That being, that if people do not have a significant personal motivation to acquire more responsibility, assume leadership roles, and seek advancement then they won't likely be a competitive candidate for any promotion. Every organization has workers who are just happy getting by and only noticed for positive reasons.

You joke about your reasons, but if you've assessed the jobs officers hold and feel you can do the work or do it better then your heart is in the right place and you should pursue a Commission.

lakemom

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 04:53:52 AM »
OP, one thing to keep in mind as well (though for certain this is NOT universal) is that many people will use time spent overseas/injuries sustained in military service as excuses for doing stupid/not succeeding in life. All of us who either server or have close family members who served know people who've gone both directions.  Some who used their service as an excuse not to succeed and many who used the skills learned to become very successful in life.

Boz86

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2015, 06:47:52 AM »
Commen Cents - I also second getting your Dad's benefits checked as the 28% thing doesn't ring true. In my experience the VA only issues whole number ratings starting at 0% service-connected, 10% service-connect, 20% service-connect and on up. I've never seen or heard of a 5% or 15% let alone a 28%. I have a combined disability, each with a different rating (all ending with a zero) and just added them together. So 10% and 20% is 30% rating. 10% and 30% is 40% rating, etc... Maybe they are adding in compensation for spouse and dependents or something else, like combining with a military pension. You can ask at military.com in their veteran's forum. They have calculators for everything over there and that might be helpful to your Dad. Nords may also know.

The earlier poster was right about how the math is done. If you have a rating that worked by simple addition that was a coincidence. Adding 20% and 10%, for example, looks like 30%, and that's what the veteran would receive. However, that's because 100-20=80, and 10% of 80 is 8, add 20 and 8 you get 28, rounded to 30. The difference kicks in more at the higher ratings.

The actual rating table is at http://www.benefits.va.gov/warms/bookc.asp part way down the page in sub part a, 4.25

That table is just a easy lookup tool for the raters following the principle of highest rating first, following ratings apply to the "remaining fitness." There are a couple of other things that apply, like the bilateral factor, but this is the essence.

mrmoneycleanshaven

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2015, 08:54:42 AM »
I see a pattern I don't understand. I know of a few guys who came out of the military financially nowhere and physically not good. Meanwhile I read on this forum of high income military people who are set with retirement pensions, yet they give no indication of live action or related injuries. Any known explanation?

Not too many people in the Military who haven't been to a hazardous area in their first 4 years.

That being said, that ball is rolling a week after bootcamp for the junior enlisted, well before their first deployment. Them come to my hospital out of AIT with cars that I can only dream about as I walk past them in the staff parking lot. These cars are often 84 month terms, thats far greater than the first term for these guys, and the military is downsizing.

As far as those that deploy getting more... They get tax free pay, special savings rates, their TSP contribution cap raises considerably, they get a bit more in HDP, and chiefly many of them get paid better 24/7 than their civilian counterparts. Look what we pay our MA and CNA equilivants. These guys net $45k state side working 40-50 hours a week, where a CNA only grosses half of that. And that's not counting differed compensation in cliff vesting retirement.

It's just a culture of spending, and I get quite the ribbing for my meager mmm ways, because of all people they think the DOC should be living it up. In reality they should question why the doc's drive economy cars and pack lunches, where they spend ever penny and then some (I HATE STARCARDS!!!).

Siobhan

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2015, 09:00:24 AM »
I am going to differ on officers making more money all the time (pensions yes, cash payments not always).  Most special pays are not available to officers, and the same goes for bonuses.  My husband is heading to O4 next month and works in a highly specialized unit, the only special pay he receives is HALO.  Some of the enlisted members in his unit actually can make MORE then him.  They receive clothing bonuses (on top of clothing allowance), a plethora of special pays, and the re up bonuses start at 60k for many of them and can go north of six figures.  Housing allowances are within a couple hundred dollars a month for enlisted and officer in our area.  On the flip side, he's only gone about half of every year, while they are gone a bit more.

Within his unit there is a divide, a lot of people are financially savvy....more are not.  One of the woman he works very closely with just got a huge re up bonus...and 2 days later showed up with a 50k pickup truck and a new motorcycle.  Her and her husband live in a 800k house (She's an E6), we live in a teeny townhome.  Other people just did not have the where with all to properly family plan.  It's VERY hard to save a lot when you have 4 kids on an E4-5 salary and a wife that stays at home to raise them.

Just like in a typical community you see people that are responsible, and people that aren't and that's where I think the bulk of it comes from.  The pay aspect is only a minor part IMO.  In regards to disability, I think it again goes back to how responsible one was before the injury.  The MAIN driver behind us starting to save before MMM was my deathly fear that he would become injured and permanently disabled.  I did not want to have to worry about anything other then making sure he had a smooth path forward in life, and not have to worry about earning money.  It's the main reason I refuse to give up my career, and the main reason we save as much as humanly possible during the good times.

CheapskateWife

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2015, 02:02:03 PM »
One thing that hasn't been addressed in this discussion is the spousal part of the military unit. 

The constant moves often make it very difficult for the spouse to contribute to the family finances in meaningful and consistent ways.  I'm back in the same job I had 6 years ago because every one of our 4 moves int he last 6 years has required me to start over, and over, and over again with a new employer.   I'm a construction project manager, and thus have tremendous earning potential...if we would just stay still for a bit.   

As for mine, he will be retiring damaged, but not broke, and that is because now that he is retiring, we can now finally count on my financial input to our family.


Kriegsspiel

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2015, 02:05:13 PM »
Someone explain this to me...
I am an e5 that dreams of escaping the clutches of the enlisted masses and commissioning to the aristocratic nobility of the officer corp.  Very few of my fellow NCOs have that vision.  They would rather stay on the smaller pay scale and think they would have a more hands on quality of life as an NCO or are getting out real soon.  I've had an XO tell me its not much better.  I've got dollar signs in my eyes looking at the pay scale differences, want the bigger pension, and the prettier dress uniforms. 

Why doesn't everyone else believe the grass is greener on the other side?  What's keeping them back?  I know I got to get more physically competitive before I make another commissioning attempt, but some of these NCOs are PT studs and could rock out the school house.

I don't think that going officer is something you are "kept back" from. Life might not be better as an officer, depending on what you want to get out of the military. Enlisted ranks have some advantages over officers (more training, more time to get experience, less paperwork, more time with the joes, etc), so if those weigh more heavily for you than higher pay and better uniforms, then maybe you should stay enlisted? I agree with Spartana, even if you are a high speed NCO, the next step doesn't have to be OCS, you can become an even more kickass NCO and keep having a direct impact on your unit.

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2015, 02:22:51 PM »
Someone explain this to me...
I am an e5 that dreams of escaping the clutches of the enlisted masses and commissioning to the aristocratic nobility of the officer corp.  Very few of my fellow NCOs have that vision.  They would rather stay on the smaller pay scale and think they would have a more hands on quality of life as an NCO or are getting out real soon.  I've had an XO tell me its not much better.  I've got dollar signs in my eyes looking at the pay scale differences, want the bigger pension, and the prettier dress uniforms. 

Why doesn't everyone else believe the grass is greener on the other side?  What's keeping them back?  I know I got to get more physically competitive before I make another commissioning attempt, but some of these NCOs are PT studs and could rock out the school house.

I don't think that going officer is something you are "kept back" from. Life might not be better as an officer, depending on what you want to get out of the military. Enlisted ranks have some advantages over officers (more training, more time to get experience, less paperwork, more time with the joes, etc), so if those weigh more heavily for you than higher pay and better uniforms, then maybe you should stay enlisted? I agree with Spartana, even if you are a high speed NCO, the next step doesn't have to be OCS, you can become an even more kickass NCO and keep having a direct impact on your unit.

God bless the kick ass NCOs.  If I don't commission I will go through life feeling I have not lived up to my potential.  A lot of the people on this forum are happy retiring early, forgoing more stressful promotions, having a sense of what enough is and being able to walk away.  Maybe these NCOs are the same.  Maybe they're culturally institutionalized to be crabs in a bucket.  Either way I am still wanting to climb the ladder rung by rung by rung.  Too much of my self actualization is provided by the National Guard and a lack of career success there will cause me more mental anguish than financial problems.

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2015, 02:42:57 PM »
I wonder if there aren't NCO's who fall victim to the "stigma" placed on them by other NCO's about "betraying the NCO corps" and going officer.  DH is a Warrant who runs into his former NCO classmates all the time.  On occassion, he gets called a sell out, which I think is pretty damn insidious.  I mean, come on, what kind of a leader says things like that out in the open where a younger enlisted person could hear...

No young private or specialist wants to dissappoint their Plt SGT or 1SG and might not aim for Warrant or OCS for fear of dissappointing their NCO leadership or worse, being stigmatized as a sell out.  It happens all the time and its just sickening.

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2015, 02:53:27 PM »
Meh, Hubs was prior enlisted SGT before going OCS, he's still friends with a bunch of guys he was friends with while he was enlisted.  He also has a different perspective on leadership since he was prior service and really doesn't want to be the douchebag commander he had (which is the main reason he went through OCS).  As a result he has also forged some long term friendships with enlisted and junior officers he's worked with.  If anyone thought he "betrayed" his enlisted status, they kept it to themselves.

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2015, 04:07:49 PM »
Someone explain this to me...
I am an e5 that dreams of escaping the clutches of the enlisted masses and commissioning to the aristocratic nobility of the officer corp.  Very few of my fellow NCOs have that vision.  They would rather stay on the smaller pay scale and think they would have a more hands on quality of life as an NCO or are getting out real soon.  I've had an XO tell me its not much better.  I've got dollar signs in my eyes looking at the pay scale differences, want the bigger pension, and the prettier dress uniforms. 

Why doesn't everyone else believe the grass is greener on the other side?  What's keeping them back?  I know I got to get more physically competitive before I make another commissioning attempt, but some of these NCOs are PT studs and could rock out the school house.

I don't think that going officer is something you are "kept back" from. Life might not be better as an officer, depending on what you want to get out of the military. Enlisted ranks have some advantages over officers (more training, more time to get experience, less paperwork, more time with the joes, etc), so if those weigh more heavily for you than higher pay and better uniforms, then maybe you should stay enlisted? I agree with Spartana, even if you are a high speed NCO, the next step doesn't have to be OCS, you can become an even more kickass NCO and keep having a direct impact on your unit.

God bless the kick ass NCOs.  If I don't commission I will go through life feeling I have not lived up to my potential.  A lot of the people on this forum are happy retiring early, forgoing more stressful promotions, having a sense of what enough is and being able to walk away.  Maybe these NCOs are the same.  Maybe they're culturally institutionalized to be crabs in a bucket.  Either way I am still wanting to climb the ladder rung by rung by rung.  Too much of my self actualization is provided by the National Guard and a lack of career success there will cause me more mental anguish than financial problems.

Full military potential can be realized as an NCO too. Instead of thinking about climbing the ladder in RANK, try focusing on expanding your skills as an NCO. Try getting into more schools and certs, read more manuals, read more in general so that you're a more useful person, especially since you can impart that directly to the junior enlisteds around you.

CheapskateWife had a super point too: Warrant officers kinda straddle the enlisted and officer worlds, and have the best of both from what I've seen.

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2015, 09:03:05 PM »
Dont know how much actual military knowledge the OP has, but if it is anything like my extended family, I think I might understand the question (apologies if it it sounds like I am talking down to you).  My family thinks that "the military" is one big unit, kind of like the Borg in Star Trek.  They have no concept that the military is comprised of people in very different career fields.  For instance, you have the front line folks: infantry in the Army (plus tanks, etc), pilots in AF, and I have no idea about Navy, but I assume most of the marines.  They deploy a lot and see all kinds of crazy action, particularly infantry.  This can lead to not just physical injuries, but PTSD, extreme marital stress, and a screw saving money I want to just live while I'm alive.

Then you have more personnel-type jobs.  JAGs, admins, accountants, IT, engineers - lots of desk job stuff.  These jobs also deploy, but a lot of times it is not direct combat action.  The military has A LOT of support staff, and a lot of this staff has pretty normalish looking jobs, with I assume a similar rate of savings and medical issues as the civilian population.

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2015, 02:11:52 PM »
Yes, I can follow the issue of lacking financial discipline. I'm obviously very ignorant on military matters. Doesn't the most dangerous assignment merit a higher reward ... both honorary and financial? Don't those injured in action get a higher pension or something? For what some of those guys went through in one week, they should be set up for life.
Military salaries and disability compensation are almost as complicated as the tax code. 

"Dangerous assignments" merit a small boost in pay, but it doesn't compensate for the additional risk.  Additional pay in a combat zone may be the equivalent of a hundred bucks a month, and aviation or submarine pay a little more.  Some get a bonus for volunteering for additional training that leads to more frequent combat deployments (like SEALs or Special Forces) while others volunteer for advanced technical training (submarines, pilots, medical). 

Recruiting and retention, on the other hand, attract a lot of money.  It's occasionally possible to get a bonus of $5K-$10K to sign up for some Marine specialties or Army Ranger training, depending on how short-handed they are.  Nuclear-trained submarine officers are paid $30K/year bonus contracts of 3-5 years to stay on beyond their initial five-year obligation, and this is in addition to their ~$100K/year total compensation.  If my daughter decides to stay in the Navy's nuclear Surface Warfare community after 2019, she could simultaneously double-dip two bonus contracts for about $50K/year (in addition to that $100K/year compensation). 

You have to wonder why the military is being so nice to suckers us.  Why are they having such a hard time retaining such talented servicemembers?

In general, someone who's severely injured in combat or training will receive a disability pension based on their years of service.  However that's not enough to pay for a lifetime of caregivers and continuing medical treatment.  Some of the additional compensation comes in the form of VA healthcare and Social Security Disability Income, but both of those systems are difficult to navigate and unevenly applied.  VA clinics also have a wide bell curve of quality.  I can barely handle the VA disability claims system as a financially-competent retiree with plenty of time and patience.  I can't imagine it being done by someone with injuries and trauma.  The reason I can't imagine it is because most of them can't do it, and they end up getting even less compensation than they're eligible for. 

There's also the issues of trauma and pain management.  Some humans handle them better than others.  Like police and firefighters, some servicemembers will go through horrific situations with nary a bad memory while others are permanently stressed and even clinically depressed.  I know people who won't even tour a submarine pierside due to claustrophobia issues, let alone get underway underwater in one.  Some veterans live with a lifetime of chronic pain while others end up in even worse shape from alcohol and prescription painkillers. 

We don't have very good ways of figuring out who's going to handle the experiences or who's exceptionally susceptible to it, let alone whether those situations are going to happen.  But that's the same with any first-responder occupation.

Someone explain this to me...
I am an e5 that dreams of escaping the clutches of the enlisted masses and commissioning to the aristocratic nobility of the officer corp.  Very few of my fellow NCOs have that vision.  They would rather stay on the smaller pay scale and think they would have a more hands on quality of life as an NCO or are getting out real soon.  I've had an XO tell me its not much better.  I've got dollar signs in my eyes looking at the pay scale differences, want the bigger pension, and the prettier dress uniforms. 

Why doesn't everyone else believe the grass is greener on the other side?  What's keeping them back?  I know I got to get more physically competitive before I make another commissioning attempt, but some of these NCOs are PT studs and could rock out the school house.

I don't think that going officer is something you are "kept back" from. Life might not be better as an officer, depending on what you want to get out of the military. Enlisted ranks have some advantages over officers (more training, more time to get experience, less paperwork, more time with the joes, etc), so if those weigh more heavily for you than higher pay and better uniforms, then maybe you should stay enlisted? I agree with Spartana, even if you are a high speed NCO, the next step doesn't have to be OCS, you can become an even more kickass NCO and keep having a direct impact on your unit.

God bless the kick ass NCOs.  If I don't commission I will go through life feeling I have not lived up to my potential.  A lot of the people on this forum are happy retiring early, forgoing more stressful promotions, having a sense of what enough is and being able to walk away.  Maybe these NCOs are the same.  Maybe they're culturally institutionalized to be crabs in a bucket.  Either way I am still wanting to climb the ladder rung by rung by rung.  Too much of my self actualization is provided by the National Guard and a lack of career success there will cause me more mental anguish than financial problems.
Have you actually seen any of these "aristocratic nobility of the officer corp"?  There's a reason that officers have to be declared gentlemen by an Act of Congress (and yes my spouse has one of those certificates too).  On the other hand respect is a two-way street that has to be earned.

At my last training command we had a slick college-degree process, and every year ~10% of our instructors would get a college degree (or an advanced degree).  Nearly every one of the enlisted college graduates pursued a commission.  Every one of those E-5s and E-6s could have chosen to go back to sea as a division leader, yet they chose to "start over" at O-1 rank.  Three of my submariner shipmates became Air Force officers, and at least two of them stuck it out all the way to the pension. 

Again you have to wonder why the military is being so much nicer to the officers.  The suckiness is right in front of you every day at the E-5 rank, but it's a little more insidious (and backstabbing) at the officer ranks.  It's not necessarily better or worse, just different.  In the Navy it's actually easier to promote to O-5 than to E-8 because it's harder to get enough people into the officer ranks and then to persuade them to stick around for the O-5 promotion.  You have to wonder why the federal government has to be so nice to them.

I'll speculate that it's the additional responsibility and accountability for people's safety and the mission, not necessarily in that order.  As an E-5 you can screw up and break your gear or kill a fellow servicemember.  As an officer you have to be ready to give the order to sacrifice not just a few people but an entire group (and all of their hardware, including the submarine they rode in on) for the mission.  As a 24-year-old junior officer I was quite willing (and thoroughly trained) to incinerate most of the globe with nuclear ICBMs.  We didn't expect the enlisted crewmembers to make that decision, although most of them were certainly willing to help turn the knobs and press the buttons. 

Does that sound like it's worth the pay, the pension, and the cool dress uniforms?

You should not pursue a commission for the money (and all the trappings).  You should pursue a commission because you want that additional burden of responsibility and accountability.  (You'll get more authority, too, but you'll get as much respect for that as an O-1 as you're giving it as an E-5.)  You should do it because you want to improve the military as much as you can, and you generally have more power to do that as an officer than as an enlisted servicemember.  (Although when I look at some E-9s compared to some O-5s, my money's on the Master Chief.)  You should pursue a commission because you want to take care of even more people than you're taking care of now, and you want to take care of your country.

But don't do it for the money.  You can get more of that at Microsoft or Google or Comcast any day.

davisgang90

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 05:11:06 AM »
On the topic of navigating the VA disability maze, several organizations like the VFW, American Legion and Disabled American Vets have highly trained folks that will walk you through the entire process for free and you don't need to be a member to use their services.

Highly recommended.

libertarian4321

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2015, 06:46:52 AM »
It depends on what kind of military folks you are talking to.

Probably the largest group of ex military are those I call "citizen soldiers" who served a few years, didn't get wounded, then got out.  They get very little in the way of benefits (pretty much a "don't let the door hit you on the way out"), and will be pretty much like their civilian counterparts (some will do well, some will fail).

The next largest group are the career military who stay in for 20 or 30 years and didn't get wounded.  Believe it or not, a huge percentage of those who retire never suffer anything more serious than a paper cut. 

If they were enlisted, they get a fat retirement check and tons of benefits for the rest of their lives.  If they were an officer, they will get a ridiculously large check every year for the rest of their lives, plus tons of benefits.  These are the ones you see who are doing really well (where else can you retire at age 38 and collect a fat pension for the rest of your life?).

The third group are those who are wounded in combat.  This is by far the smallest group.  These are the folks who SHOULD be collecting the fat checks (rather than Colonel Paper Cut who never came close to combat).  However, as someone previously mentioned, the guy who got both his legs blown off in combat will get far less each month than Colonel Lard Butt. 

There is something seriously wrong with our military that makes desk bound paper pushing officers rich, while the infantryman who lost both legs is left with little to show for his service.  If it were up to me, I'd REDUCE the retirement benefits from those who "stick around" for 20 years and massively increase the benefits for the guys who get wounded actually fighting.

Another idea:  to encourage more of the "citizen soldiers" that this nation originally intended, I'd increase pay and benefits while on active duty, and cut back on the retirement bonanza.  I don't think a large professional military class is a particularly good idea in a free country.  Especially since a lot of those guys step out of the military, start collecting their pensions, then go to work for a huge salary at a military contractor the next day- this leads to all sorts of corruption and massive cost to the taxpayer.

2527

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2015, 07:25:19 AM »
The spectrum of outcomes increases as the population gets older.  This is true of the military as well as every other group of people.

The average high school graduate has a net worth of around zero.  The average college graduate is someplace between minus $50,000 and plus $10,000.  The average 30 year old is maybe minus $100,000 to plus $250,000.  Fast forward to 50 or 60, and it is minus $100,000 to plus $1,000,000. 

And at the age of 50 or 60, some people are divorced a couple of times and estranged from the kids, and some people have created loving supportive family structures.  Some people have friends and groups, and hobbies, and some people are bitter lonely people with or without substance abuse problems.  Some people have had strokes, heart attacks or diabetes, and some people are running marathons, in good shape, have a rich sex lives, etc.

For officers, everybody starts out as an O-1, after 16 years some people are passed over O-4s counting the days til they get to 20 years, and some people know they have a good shot at becoming generals.

It's the accumulated impact of daily decisions. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 08:28:04 AM by 2527 »

davisgang90

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2015, 01:38:38 PM »
It depends on what kind of military folks you are talking to.

Probably the largest group of ex military are those I call "citizen soldiers" who served a few years, didn't get wounded, then got out.  They get very little in the way of benefits (pretty much a "don't let the door hit you on the way out"), and will be pretty much like their civilian counterparts (some will do well, some will fail).

The next largest group are the career military who stay in for 20 or 30 years and didn't get wounded.  Believe it or not, a huge percentage of those who retire never suffer anything more serious than a paper cut. 

If they were enlisted, they get a fat retirement check and tons of benefits for the rest of their lives.  If they were an officer, they will get a ridiculously large check every year for the rest of their lives, plus tons of benefits.  These are the ones you see who are doing really well (where else can you retire at age 38 and collect a fat pension for the rest of your life?).

The third group are those who are wounded in combat.  This is by far the smallest group.  These are the folks who SHOULD be collecting the fat checks (rather than Colonel Paper Cut who never came close to combat).  However, as someone previously mentioned, the guy who got both his legs blown off in combat will get far less each month than Colonel Lard Butt. 

There is something seriously wrong with our military that makes desk bound paper pushing officers rich, while the infantryman who lost both legs is left with little to show for his service.  If it were up to me, I'd REDUCE the retirement benefits from those who "stick around" for 20 years and massively increase the benefits for the guys who get wounded actually fighting.

Another idea:  to encourage more of the "citizen soldiers" that this nation originally intended, I'd increase pay and benefits while on active duty, and cut back on the retirement bonanza.  I don't think a large professional military class is a particularly good idea in a free country.  Especially since a lot of those guys step out of the military, start collecting their pensions, then go to work for a huge salary at a military contractor the next day- this leads to all sorts of corruption and massive cost to the taxpayer.
I'm one of those serving for 20 or 30 years.  There are several reasons I served that long.  One of them is the pension.  You seem to ignore the sacrifices inherent in serving for that length of time.  I've moved my family 9 times in 24 years.  Kinda hard to buy a house in that scenario.  I've deployed numerous times.  You seem to equate career military with zero sacrifices.  I'm all for those that are wounded being well cared for, but I've got major back issues from flying helicopters for 2 decades, that should be covered as well.

The other reason you need folks to serve for more than one tour is so you have leadership both to run the military and train up the next generation. 

Villanelle

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2015, 02:02:24 PM »
The notion that officers are overpaid "paper pushers" is ignorant and silly, and more than a little offensive.

Tell that to DH, whose hearing is going from all those years of flying a helicopter. Our friends who are permanently injured from helo crashes would object to the notion that officers are "paper pushers", as would our dead friends if they were, you know... not dead. 

When he gets to 20+, IMO, DH will have earned every penny of that pension.  Do we need to do better by our injured vets?  Absolutely.  But DH is making far less than his civilian counterparts.  The pension is simply delayed compensation and when looked at that way, it isn't quite the same obscenely large check you make it out to be, libertarian. 

Chuck

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2015, 02:42:09 PM »
It's all about how marketable your military profession is in the civie world. Mine was very marketable. Also, pensions/compensation are an iffy topic- and can be completely divorced from combat action. In my case, I was diagnosed with a severe sleep disorder that my service (which involved shift work) exasserbated. This means I now draw a "pension" of sorts.

It also has to do with how informed you are about the benefits of your service. I did hours upon hours of research on the topic before I got out. I would literally binge read whole websites on the topic. So I knew exactly what I could get and how, and this helped my transission immensly.

Lastly it boils down to personal choice. If you were the guy who lived cheap in the military, chances are you left with a healthy wad of cash (if not a portfolio of investments!). If you were all about the infantry frat party culture, you probably left shit broke.

I do feel for the some of the guys who get sent on their way without a clue, but having experienced the system at it's modern worst (my Bn really did blow ass at prepping outgoing Marines) I don't have as much sympathy as people like yourself. The system at it's worst requires patience and persistence, but it really isn't that bad.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 02:44:29 PM by Chuck »

libertarian4321

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2015, 03:49:05 PM »
You seem to equate career military with zero sacrifices. 

I didn't say zero sacrifices.  Yes, military folks have to move every ~3 years or so.  Yeah, it makes it harder to invest in real estate.  There are some other annoyances, as well as some great perks. 

But all of us who have served in the military know that there are plenty of folks who get those fat pensions who never suffered any real hardship.  Desk bound officers who, even today, never came near any real combat despite serving 20 or 30 years.  In the peace-time army, this is far more common.

It just seems out of wack for these guys to be reaping huge benefits, while wounded soldiers  suffer far more and get far less in return. 

I just think that given the limited funds, the greatest benefits should go to those who suffered the most- those horribly wounded or killed in combat, not chair bound desk jockeys who just "put in their time."

Call me a radical, but I'd rather see 10 PFCs with no legs get extra money every year than have Col. Lard Butt get $100k per year in retirement pay (for doing absolutely nothing).  With all due respect to Colonel Butt, I'm quite sure those 10 PFC's sacrificed far more than he did.
Maybe cut Colonel Lard Butt's retirement pay from $100,000 to $50,000 (Hell, he won't need it, he's probably going to be raking in money from some defense contractor).

And yeah, I know all the current Colonel Lard Butt (Ret.) types won't stand for that, nor will those still in the military and hoping to cash in in the near future.  So any proposal to distribute more money to those who really sacrificed, versus those who just hung around for a long time, would only be applicable to future military folks.





Villanelle

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2015, 04:03:19 PM »
You seem to have a serious chip on your shoulder about the officer thing.  You realize there are desk bound enlisted personnel, too, right?  You diminish your point greatly with your clear officer-issue.  If your beef is with "desk bound" people getting pension, you'd do better to leave off the "officer" bit, as it kind of makes you look like you have an axe to ground that has little to do with the fairness of retirement and VA benefits. 

davisgang90

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2015, 04:04:00 PM »
You seem to equate career military with zero sacrifices. 

I didn't say zero sacrifices.  Yes, military folks have to move every ~3 years or so.  Yeah, it makes it harder to invest in real estate.  There are some other annoyances, as well as some great perks. 

But all of us who have served in the military know that there are plenty of folks who get those fat pensions who never suffered any real hardship.  Desk bound officers who, even today, never came near any real combat despite serving 20 or 30 years.  In the peace-time army, this is far more common.

It just seems out of wack for these guys to be reaping huge benefits, while wounded soldiers  suffer far more and get far less in return. 

I just think that given the limited funds, the greatest benefits should go to those who suffered the most- those horribly wounded or killed in combat, not chair bound desk jockeys who just "put in their time."

Call me a radical, but I'd rather see 10 PFCs with no legs get extra money every year than have Col. Lard Butt get $100k per year in retirement pay (for doing absolutely nothing).  With all due respect to Colonel Butt, I'm quite sure those 10 PFC's sacrificed far more than he did.
Maybe cut Colonel Lard Butt's retirement pay from $100,000 to $50,000 (Hell, he won't need it, he's probably going to be raking in money from some defense contractor).

And yeah, I know all the current Colonel Lard Butt (Ret.) types won't stand for that, nor will those still in the military and hoping to cash in in the near future.  So any proposal to distribute more money to those who really sacrificed, versus those who just hung around for a long time, would only be applicable to future military folks.
So are you still in the military?  If not, why not?  All those great perks you think you'd hang around for 20 you know since it is so easy.

libertarian4321

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2015, 04:06:39 PM »
The notion that officers are overpaid "paper pushers" is ignorant and silly, and more than a little offensive.

Tell that to DH, whose hearing is going from all those years of flying a helicopter. Our friends who are permanently injured from helo crashes would object to the notion that officers are "paper pushers", as would our dead friends if they were, you know... not dead. 

When he gets to 20+, IMO, DH will have earned every penny of that pension.  Do we need to do better by our injured vets?  Absolutely.  But DH is making far less than his civilian counterparts.  The pension is simply delayed compensation and when looked at that way, it isn't quite the same obscenely large check you make it out to be, libertarian.

An O-6 with 30-years service $131,000 per year (base pay only, this does not include all the other perks- BAS, BAQ, etc). 

If he retires at age 52, he'll collect roughly $100,000 per year, every year, for the rest of his life (likely to be 3 decades or so), for doing absolutely nothing.  Not to mention the extraordinary benefits retired military get- free medical, education benefits for the soldier and his family, and all the rest, which can be worth tens of thousands more every year. 

In short, a military retirement for an officer is worth MILLIONS of dollars.

I'm a former military officer, so I'm not "anti military."  But I'm also a tax payer, and given the size of our bloated military, that is a huge (and some would say unsustainable) burden. 

But for now, I'm not calling to cut the size of the pot, just redistribute it more fairly to those who truly sacrificed, rather than those who hung around for a long time and were merely inconvenienced.



libertarian4321

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2015, 04:08:56 PM »
You seem to have a serious chip on your shoulder about the officer thing.  You realize there are desk bound enlisted personnel, too, right? 

Yup.

But officers 1) are far more likely to be desk bound, and 2) collect far more in benefits.  That's why I singled out Colonel Lard Butt rather than the enlisted equivalent.

davisgang90

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2015, 04:12:42 PM »
The notion that officers are overpaid "paper pushers" is ignorant and silly, and more than a little offensive.

Tell that to DH, whose hearing is going from all those years of flying a helicopter. Our friends who are permanently injured from helo crashes would object to the notion that officers are "paper pushers", as would our dead friends if they were, you know... not dead. 

When he gets to 20+, IMO, DH will have earned every penny of that pension.  Do we need to do better by our injured vets?  Absolutely.  But DH is making far less than his civilian counterparts.  The pension is simply delayed compensation and when looked at that way, it isn't quite the same obscenely large check you make it out to be, libertarian.

An O-6 with 30-years service $131,000 per year (base pay only, this does not include all the other perks- BAS, BAQ, etc). 

If he retires at age 52, he'll collect roughly $100,000 per year, every year, for the rest of his life (likely to be 3 decades or so), for doing absolutely nothing.  Not to mention the extraordinary benefits retired military get- free medical, education benefits for the soldier and his family, and all the rest, which can be worth tens of thousands more every year. 

In short, a military retirement for an officer is worth MILLIONS of dollars.

I'm a former military officer, so I'm not "anti military."  But I'm also a tax payer, and given the size of our bloated military, that is a huge (and some would say unsustainable) burden. 

But for now, I'm not calling to cut the size of the pot, just redistribute it more fairly to those who truly sacrificed, rather than those who hung around for a long time and were merely inconvenienced.
For someone who served you seem remarkably uninformed.  Tricare isn't free, there are either copays or catastrophic caps depending on whether you go Tricare Prime or Standard, just like any HMO and at 65 your primary medical becomes Medicare just like all retirees.  We get a pension because for X number of years we did exactly as we were told and made incredible sacrifices you don't have to make anymore since you quit.  Why did you quit again?  Creative differences?  They were paying you too much?

libertarian4321

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2015, 04:30:32 PM »
You seem to equate career military with zero sacrifices. 

I didn't say zero sacrifices.  Yes, military folks have to move every ~3 years or so.  Yeah, it makes it harder to invest in real estate.  There are some other annoyances, as well as some great perks. 

But all of us who have served in the military know that there are plenty of folks who get those fat pensions who never suffered any real hardship.  Desk bound officers who, even today, never came near any real combat despite serving 20 or 30 years.  In the peace-time army, this is far more common.

It just seems out of wack for these guys to be reaping huge benefits, while wounded soldiers  suffer far more and get far less in return. 

I just think that given the limited funds, the greatest benefits should go to those who suffered the most- those horribly wounded or killed in combat, not chair bound desk jockeys who just "put in their time."

Call me a radical, but I'd rather see 10 PFCs with no legs get extra money every year than have Col. Lard Butt get $100k per year in retirement pay (for doing absolutely nothing).  With all due respect to Colonel Butt, I'm quite sure those 10 PFC's sacrificed far more than he did.
Maybe cut Colonel Lard Butt's retirement pay from $100,000 to $50,000 (Hell, he won't need it, he's probably going to be raking in money from some defense contractor).

And yeah, I know all the current Colonel Lard Butt (Ret.) types won't stand for that, nor will those still in the military and hoping to cash in in the near future.  So any proposal to distribute more money to those who really sacrificed, versus those who just hung around for a long time, would only be applicable to future military folks.
So are you still in the military?  If not, why not?  All those great perks you think you'd hang around for 20 you know since it is so easy.

First off, I come from a family of citizen soldiers.  We think it is important to serve, but we aren't looking for a career in the military.  Essentially every male in my family serves (either active or reserve), but none ever went in for a career.

Why else did I get out?  Well, this might piss some folks off, but here goes.

There are good things about the military.  However, there is a LOT of mind numbing stupidity and waste in the military (and in the government in general).  Also, hide bound tradition and bureaucracy that gets in the way of getting things done.  You almost have to turn your brain off just to get through the day.

At the 8-10 year point on active duty, all officers have to decide whether to get out or make it a career, because once you make Major, you have pretty much committed yourself to staying in for 10.  When I got to that point, I chose not to stay in.

In my field (engineering), almost all of the best and brightest left between year 4 (when their ROTC obligation was up) and year 9 (when they had to make that final decision about making a career of it).  The bad officers washed out (failed to be promoted to CPT or Major). 

So it was largely the mediocrities that stayed on.  And I say that with affection, because some of those guys are still good friends.  Col. Lard Butt is an actual friend of mine, his name has been changed to protect his identity.  :)

libertarian4321

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2015, 04:33:32 PM »
For someone who served you seem remarkably uninformed.  Tricare isn't free, there are either copays or catastrophic caps depending on whether you go Tricare Prime or Standard, just like any HMO and at 65 your primary medical becomes Medicare just like all retirees. 

Co-pays ain't the same thing as co-pays PLUS thousands of dollars per year in premiums that civilians have to pay.  Trust me, retired military have it way better than civilians who pay for their HMO coverage.

davisgang90

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2015, 04:41:12 PM »
For someone who served you seem remarkably uninformed.  Tricare isn't free, there are either copays or catastrophic caps depending on whether you go Tricare Prime or Standard, just like any HMO and at 65 your primary medical becomes Medicare just like all retirees. 

Co-pays ain't the same thing as co-pays PLUS thousands of dollars per year in premiums that civilians have to pay.  Trust me, retired military have it way better than civilians who pay for their HMO coverage.
I thought you said it was free medical?

caliq

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Re: Military: Some rich and some broke and damaged?
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2015, 05:00:52 PM »
You seem to equate career military with zero sacrifices. 

I didn't say zero sacrifices.  Yes, military folks have to move every ~3 years or so.  Yeah, it makes it harder to invest in real estate.  There are some other annoyances, as well as some great perks. 

Just because you didn't find anything you personally dealt with to be more than an 'annoyance' does not give you the right to devalue the sacrifices of others, regardless of their combat-service status.  Seriously, that's highly insulting.