Author Topic: Middle Class Tax Trap?  (Read 68787 times)

electriceagle

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2015, 02:12:12 AM »
To be fair, my own situation isn't perfectly comparable since I live in a place with a lower cost of living. I know I couldn't buy a decent home in the bay area for $116,000. I sympathize with your higher housing costs.

More to the point, you can't buy any house in SF for $116k. Not even an outhouse. 100k gets you a parking space: http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2014/06/09/how-much-is-a-parking-spot-worth-in-s-f/

electriceagle

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2015, 02:43:57 AM »
Do you have real numbers on this - ie entitlements, everyone seems to band it about as the root of all evil. Anyone have a break down how much we spend on

Welfare - food stamps, free medicaid, unemployment etc,
Middle class welfare - mortgage tax deduction, subsidized employer provided healtcare, 529 tax breaks etc.
Corporate welfare - subsidies for large corps, income tax breaks for hedge fund managers etc.
The top 10% of earners in the country pay ~$580 billion in income taxes with a top marginal rate of 39% or so, compared to a top marginal rate of ~92% on income above $200k after WWII. With the average household AGI for the top 5% at ~400k+, if we increased the top marginal rate to post-WWII levels (increase the rate and lower the income required to hit that rate), it would result in revenues on that top marginal rate of ~$1.30 trillion versus the current marginal rates of 33-40% and revenues of ~.3 trillion, which would wipe out the deficit and leave us with a ~$460 billion surplus.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data


After WWII, the US was one of the few industrialized countries that hadn't had a war occur on its own shores. There weren't many other places where one could live, run a business and be comfortable.

Today, lots of countries provide good public safety, efficient systems like railroads and highways, education through secondary school and the predictability necessary to run a business. There is more competition in the market for countries. As a result, "prices" have fallen.

Small/moderate tax increases on higher earners would probably work, but large increases like those that you describe would probably cause top earning people to leave. You could chase them around the world with a stick, but I doubt that such an approach would be productive overall.

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2015, 04:21:56 AM »
maybe someone mentioned this already but root of good covered this subject

six figure income no tax

http://rootofgood.com/make-six-figure-income-pay-no-tax/

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2015, 08:41:57 AM »
After WWII, the US was one of the few industrialized countries that hadn't had a war occur on its own shores. There weren't many other places where one could live, run a business and be comfortable.

Today, lots of countries provide good public safety, efficient systems like railroads and highways, education through secondary school and the predictability necessary to run a business. There is more competition in the market for countries. As a result, "prices" have fallen.

Small/moderate tax increases on higher earners would probably work, but large increases like those that you describe would probably cause top earning people to leave. You could chase them around the world with a stick, but I doubt that such an approach would be productive overall.
As long as it's done gradually, and more to the point, across the board, where everyone pays more in the way of taxes to settle the national debt and we reduce defense spending/stringently audit existing spending, then I doubt there would be many people leaving.

We've seen that tax cuts for wealthy individuals don't stimulate economic growth or job creation, and I doubt the flip side of that, higher taxes for wealthy individual, would reduce economic growth or job creation, or lead to a mass exodus that would affect our economy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-tax-cuts-dont-lead-to-growth-2012-9

There are situations where tax cuts can help economically, but the wealthy would need to reinvest the money they now have from reduced taxes into local economics and job creation, and that hasn't happened in general.

On the flip side, tax cuts for low to middle income people are generally very beneficial because those people spend most of their income by virtue of not being wealthy.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/commentary/taxing-rich-good-economy

I think the article title is click-bait, but the basic premise, that too much income inequality is bad for an economy, I think holds true just about anyplace. On the other hand, no one is suggesting some sort of communist/socialist playing field where everyone gets the same stuff regardless of ability either, just to make that clear.

Tabaxus

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #104 on: January 24, 2015, 10:50:27 AM »
Do you have real numbers on this - ie entitlements, everyone seems to band it about as the root of all evil. Anyone have a break down how much we spend on

Welfare - food stamps, free medicaid, unemployment etc,
Middle class welfare - mortgage tax deduction, subsidized employer provided healtcare, 529 tax breaks etc.
Corporate welfare - subsidies for large corps, income tax breaks for hedge fund managers etc.
The top 10% of earners in the country pay ~$580 billion in income taxes with a top marginal rate of 39% or so, compared to a top marginal rate of ~92% on income above $200k after WWII. With the average household AGI for the top 5% at ~400k+, if we increased the top marginal rate to post-WWII levels (increase the rate and lower the income required to hit that rate), it would result in revenues on that top marginal rate of ~$1.30 trillion versus the current marginal rates of 33-40% and revenues of ~.3 trillion, which would wipe out the deficit and leave us with a ~$460 billion surplus.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data


After WWII, the US was one of the few industrialized countries that hadn't had a war occur on its own shores. There weren't many other places where one could live, run a business and be comfortable.

Today, lots of countries provide good public safety, efficient systems like railroads and highways, education through secondary school and the predictability necessary to run a business. There is more competition in the market for countries. As a result, "prices" have fallen.

Small/moderate tax increases on higher earners would probably work, but large increases like those that you describe would probably cause top earning people to leave. You could chase them around the world with a stick, but I doubt that such an approach would be productive overall.

Yes, because everyone would uproot their immediate family, leave their family and friends behind, and still have to dodge the IRS, all while attempting to receive permanent work status or naturalization in another country, while also avoiding exit taxes.  Because the English-speaking developed world has such low taxes.  And every job is portable, of course.

Tabaxus

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2015, 12:01:25 PM »
Taxation is definitely something I will factor into where I live and/or retire to. I assume that is the case for most people.

The suggestion that people will go about their business ignoring taxes is kind of absurd.

The sole reason I am living where I am is the expectation that currently I can add the most to my investments per year here. If that stops being the case, I will move in a heartbeat.

In retirement, I wouldn't be so concerned about income taxes, but the introduction of a large sales tax (such as the so-called "FairTax") would definitely make me leave the US immediately.

Also, the US expatriation tax only applies to the portion of unrealised capital gains above $600,000, adjusted for inflation each year ($680,000 for 2014). If your stash is $1-1.5 million, it's possible your unrealised capital gains are below that threshold, but even if not, the expatriation tax would be very small. It is not a serious problem. Of course, the exact mechanics change every few years so it could also become more oppressive too.

As for the ease of moving elsewhere, I think you will find it is not so bad for a Mustachian. Most countries have a program that allows you to immigrate on a permanent basis by making an investment in the country on the order of $200,000 - $1 million, which is entirely on the table for a Mustachian. Also, some people living in the US are not American and/or already have other citizenships. For instance, I am Canadian. I have no family in the US and I do not make decisions about where to live based on family or friends.


I should be clear that with prevailing laws, I think the US is the best place to accumulate savings, and also the best place to retire. I'm just saying that it's conceivable that could change if the laws change, and if so, I would act based on those changes.

I certainly think some people with comparatively less to leave behind would make the same choice if laws changed dramatically, but I think the number of people with few enough roots to actually do this is probably pretty low, particularly for U.S. citizens. 

penguins4everyone!

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #106 on: January 24, 2015, 01:07:06 PM »
I get SO tired of this narrative that people in expensive houses must live in McMansions in gated communities.  I work for a nonprofit in San Francisco proper, helping first time homebuyers get ready to purchase.  So basically, worst job ever cause all I do is break hearts.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live here can truly understand how awful our housing market is.  A small, run down house in a neighborhood with bad schools and poor infrastructure will go for $700,000.  Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get a parking spot for 100k, maybe, there are no houses even close to that price range whatsoever. (Unless you qualify for Below Market Rate, which we don't, and is beyond competitive).  You could save $ by moving an hour away but then enjoy your monster commute stealing 2 hours a day and $500/month in gas and tolls or whatever.  (not mustachian, people!) Salaries are higher here, but the housing market is completely unnattainable to all but the highest earners.  I have a colleague who has been making offers on 600k homes in the east bay (again, that's pretty cheap here) for a year, and hasn't gotten an offer accepted yet.  So even if you want to over-pay for something, good luck to you.

I would gladly live in a fixer-upper house in a fairly ugly, dull neighborhood if it meant I could own something.  We can't. At all. We make 150k/yr.  This isn't a complaint, life is pretty rainbows and butterflies in our long-term rent-controlled apartment, but not everyone here is so lucky.


Roland of Gilead

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #107 on: January 24, 2015, 01:59:16 PM »
Taxes suck, but save for a few years and you can retire early, paying little tax (or even negative tax).

NICE!

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #108 on: January 24, 2015, 02:03:09 PM »
I get SO tired of this narrative that people in expensive houses must live in McMansions in gated communities.  I work for a nonprofit in San Francisco proper, helping first time homebuyers get ready to purchase.  So basically, worst job ever cause all I do is break hearts.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live here can truly understand how awful our housing market is.  A small, run down house in a neighborhood with bad schools and poor infrastructure will go for $700,000.  Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get a parking spot for 100k, maybe, there are no houses even close to that price range whatsoever. (Unless you qualify for Below Market Rate, which we don't, and is beyond competitive).  You could save $ by moving an hour away but then enjoy your monster commute stealing 2 hours a day and $500/month in gas and tolls or whatever.  (not mustachian, people!) Salaries are higher here, but the housing market is completely unnattainable to all but the highest earners.  I have a colleague who has been making offers on 600k homes in the east bay (again, that's pretty cheap here) for a year, and hasn't gotten an offer accepted yet.  So even if you want to over-pay for something, good luck to you.

I would gladly live in a fixer-upper house in a fairly ugly, dull neighborhood if it meant I could own something.  We can't. At all. We make 150k/yr.  This isn't a complaint, life is pretty rainbows and butterflies in our long-term rent-controlled apartment, but not everyone here is so lucky.

Poppycock. My buddy lives in Richmond and paid $325k for his house just a few years ago...And Richmond is fine.

Also, not everyone works in the City.

jtriplett

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #109 on: January 24, 2015, 02:28:52 PM »
I get SO tired of this narrative that people in expensive houses must live in McMansions in gated communities.  I work for a nonprofit in San Francisco proper, helping first time homebuyers get ready to purchase.  So basically, worst job ever cause all I do is break hearts.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live here can truly understand how awful our housing market is.  A small, run down house in a neighborhood with bad schools and poor infrastructure will go for $700,000.  Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get a parking spot for 100k, maybe, there are no houses even close to that price range whatsoever. (Unless you qualify for Below Market Rate, which we don't, and is beyond competitive).  You could save $ by moving an hour away but then enjoy your monster commute stealing 2 hours a day and $500/month in gas and tolls or whatever.  (not mustachian, people!) Salaries are higher here, but the housing market is completely unnattainable to all but the highest earners.  I have a colleague who has been making offers on 600k homes in the east bay (again, that's pretty cheap here) for a year, and hasn't gotten an offer accepted yet.  So even if you want to over-pay for something, good luck to you.

I would gladly live in a fixer-upper house in a fairly ugly, dull neighborhood if it meant I could own something.  We can't. At all. We make 150k/yr.  This isn't a complaint, life is pretty rainbows and butterflies in our long-term rent-controlled apartment, but not everyone here is so lucky.

Poppycock. My buddy lives in Richmond and paid $325k for his house just a few years ago...And Richmond is fine.

Also, not everyone works in the City.

Have you seen median house prices in Richmond these days?  Really?  A lot of them are up 50-100% over "a few years ago"  I was just on realtor.com today and looking at Richmond, it's one of the few "affordable" areas right now and housing is still absurd. 

100-150k in San Francisco IS middle class, it's basically the starting place right now, and if you have a family, forget about living in the city it's too expensive.  The only people who make less than that and survive are those who are 1) on rent control for 5+ years, or 2) have owned a place in the city for 5+ years

I "only" pay $1250 for a junior 1-bedroom in Berkeley.  That same place (never mind that it has a little yard which you can't find in San Francisco) would be $2500+ in San Francisco.

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #110 on: January 24, 2015, 03:10:21 PM »
I get SO tired of this narrative that people in expensive houses must live in McMansions in gated communities.  I work for a nonprofit in San Francisco proper, helping first time homebuyers get ready to purchase.  So basically, worst job ever cause all I do is break hearts.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live here can truly understand how awful our housing market is.  A small, run down house in a neighborhood with bad schools and poor infrastructure will go for $700,000.  Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get a parking spot for 100k, maybe, there are no houses even close to that price range whatsoever. (Unless you qualify for Below Market Rate, which we don't, and is beyond competitive).  You could save $ by moving an hour away but then enjoy your monster commute stealing 2 hours a day and $500/month in gas and tolls or whatever.  (not mustachian, people!) Salaries are higher here, but the housing market is completely unnattainable to all but the highest earners.  I have a colleague who has been making offers on 600k homes in the east bay (again, that's pretty cheap here) for a year, and hasn't gotten an offer accepted yet.  So even if you want to over-pay for something, good luck to you.

I would gladly live in a fixer-upper house in a fairly ugly, dull neighborhood if it meant I could own something.  We can't. At all. We make 150k/yr.  This isn't a complaint, life is pretty rainbows and butterflies in our long-term rent-controlled apartment, but not everyone here is so lucky.

Poppycock. My buddy lives in Richmond and paid $325k for his house just a few years ago...And Richmond is fine.

Also, not everyone works in the City.

Have you seen median house prices in Richmond these days?  Really?  A lot of them are up 50-100% over "a few years ago"  I was just on realtor.com today and looking at Richmond, it's one of the few "affordable" areas right now and housing is still absurd. 

100-150k in San Francisco IS middle class, it's basically the starting place right now, and if you have a family, forget about living in the city it's too expensive.  The only people who make less than that and survive are those who are 1) on rent control for 5+ years, or 2) have owned a place in the city for 5+ years

I "only" pay $1250 for a junior 1-bedroom in Berkeley.  That same place (never mind that it has a little yard which you can't find in San Francisco) would be $2500+ in San Francisco.

Still poppycock.  Living in San Francisco or Berkeley is a luxury.  It's not a McMansion, it's a luxury of locality. 

If you think everyone of all incomes needs the "american dream" of a standalone house in SF to live a full life, you've got another think coming.

I do think SF should build up and increase density until home prices are affordable for (at least) median wage earners.  Instead, SF creates artificial scarcity with its "low income" housing, where you basically sign up for a lottery to afford a home, and votes to scale back "luxury" developments (when all developments in SF are by definition luxury until there is a glut of supply).

zataks

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2015, 03:23:38 PM »
Have you seen median house prices in Richmond these days?  Really?  A lot of them are up 50-100% over "a few years ago"  I was just on realtor.com today and looking at Richmond, it's one of the few "affordable" areas right now and housing is still absurd. 

100-150k in San Francisco IS middle class, it's basically the starting place right now, and if you have a family, forget about living in the city it's too expensive.  The only people who make less than that and survive are those who are 1) on rent control for 5+ years, or 2) have owned a place in the city for 5+ years

I "only" pay $1250 for a junior 1-bedroom in Berkeley.  That same place (never mind that it has a little yard which you can't find in San Francisco) would be $2500+ in San Francisco.

100-150k in SF Bay area is not middle class.  In fact, on that 150k is TWICE the median household income in SF.  This is the problem of living somewhere like this, the high concentration of extremely wealthy (as well as big spenders) people makes it seem like $150k annually is middle class. 

DW likes to joke and say we're "Silicon Valley poor."  But just because the Maserati's are more conspicuous than the folks pushing shopping carts full of their lives doesn't make $150k middle class.  It's still a stupid amount of income and potential for wealth.  Believing otherwise is a one-way ticket to our beloved hedonic adaptation.

gimp

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2015, 03:24:18 PM »
I live in the bay area. Housing here is such a can of worms. If you want to live in a normal area and get a house through normal means, you pretty much need to have that double engineering salary of two married engineers to get it - in the 200-300k range to get a "starter home" of 700k-1m.

Other alternatives are:

- Live farther away and commute and/or telecommute
- Live in shitty areas
- Buy a foreclosure
- Buy something through some government program
- Buy a condo when you can... they might sell for $450k brand new, $750k two years later, for real... oh, and also HOA fees
- Rent

As you might image, most people choose to rent.

It is a free market (well, sort of.) Nobody is entitled to live near where they work or go to school. This is why a last option that many people consider, and ultimately choose, often after working here for 5-10 years, is:

- Go elsewhere.

People will work for ten years, then move to a cheaper tech-friendly city, buy a big house with garage and an acre or two of land in cash, and live very comfortably earning a bit less, and easily afford sending kids to school.

If that's the way it's going to be, so be it. I personally would prefer that the SF-SJ corridor builds upwards, to relieve the pressure. I would also enjoy seeing china go bust a bit, so that foreign investments stop being used to buy houses; of course that's selfish of me, but I don't really care.

The double-engineering salary is definitely not middle class, but it also doesn't mean it lets you buy a house in SF. Weird, huh?

mm1970

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2015, 04:36:15 PM »
yes subject title is kind of insulting to people who are actually in the middle class.
The only suggestion is try to transition as quickly as possible to live off of investments, which are taxed at a lower rate than income.

http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/articles/2014/04/24/what-it-means-to-be-middle-class-today
Personally, I think that you cannot judge "middle class" solely by income, you have to consider COL, particularly housing.

Then again, there's "middle class", "Upper middle", "lower middle".

mm1970

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2015, 04:53:37 PM »
I get SO tired of this narrative that people in expensive houses must live in McMansions in gated communities.  I work for a nonprofit in San Francisco proper, helping first time homebuyers get ready to purchase.  So basically, worst job ever cause all I do is break hearts.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live here can truly understand how awful our housing market is.  A small, run down house in a neighborhood with bad schools and poor infrastructure will go for $700,000.  Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get a parking spot for 100k, maybe, there are no houses even close to that price range whatsoever. (Unless you qualify for Below Market Rate, which we don't, and is beyond competitive).  You could save $ by moving an hour away but then enjoy your monster commute stealing 2 hours a day and $500/month in gas and tolls or whatever.  (not mustachian, people!) Salaries are higher here, but the housing market is completely unnattainable to all but the highest earners.  I have a colleague who has been making offers on 600k homes in the east bay (again, that's pretty cheap here) for a year, and hasn't gotten an offer accepted yet.  So even if you want to over-pay for something, good luck to you.

I would gladly live in a fixer-upper house in a fairly ugly, dull neighborhood if it meant I could own something.  We can't. At all. We make 150k/yr.  This isn't a complaint, life is pretty rainbows and butterflies in our long-term rent-controlled apartment, but not everyone here is so lucky.
Hey!  I'm in Santa Barbara, and I can certainly relate.

That house you described would also be $700k here. 

Markets come and go - when we bought our house, you could get a bay area house (Mountain View) for about $100k less than we paid, and it was bigger too, more land.  (Specifically speaking of a friend's house.)

Of course now that house would be about $1.3M.  So, markets they change.

mm1970

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2015, 04:56:12 PM »
Some of it is "wealth" too.  I never see "income" as the difference between middle class and rich.

Because income can go away, and it can go away fast.
I'm a worker bee.
My husband is a worker bee.

We are in our 40's.  I saw what the last huge down turn did to engineers in their 50's.

"Upper class?"  Well, if you are high income AND mustachian and save up money, yes.

Capsu78

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2015, 05:21:43 PM »
Yeah, I consider our household "middle class" too even though the IRS considers us "rich folk" based on income.  We were certainly middle class, even over extended middle class when we first bought our current home 24 years ago.  We raised our kids here, got some raises, promotions and bonuses along the way.  Also suffered a couple of RIF's which made us wonder if we were even middle class.
Moved from the Bay Area to get here and so had some equity to get into a slightly nicer zip code here in Chicagoland, although the house we sold in Fremont went for $225M and now Zillows out at $1.5 Million... so was I upper class millionare then, and stupidly sold my future to early?
So now we have hit a string of years at our highest income.  When did I become upper class?  Still mowing the same yard in the same school district, wondering is sales numbers will get us a seat at the corporate trough next year?   
So if the IRS deems us and treats us as upper class this year, when will we become middle class again?  Class envy is the new...Black. 

bzzzt

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #117 on: January 24, 2015, 07:01:12 PM »

When did I become upper class?  Still mowing the same yard in the same school district, wondering is sales numbers will get us a seat at the corporate trough next year?   
So if the IRS deems us and treats us as upper class this year, when will we become middle class again?  Class envy is the new...Black.

Agreed, except I might be slinging pipe in a ditch again some time soon. Anyone else here ever been in a ditch with 2' of mud at the bottom banging pipe together while someone yells at you to hurry up? Ditch days tend to remind me I'm not upper class, no matter what my combined income may say. Pulling cable in a manhole full of dog shit? Counting Coney Island white fish and wondering how many needles are in the hole? Yep, not upper class.

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #118 on: January 24, 2015, 07:54:21 PM »
This thread is a solid reminder of why I would never move to the Bay Area.  Right now I live in northern San Diego which is still considered HCOL vs. the rest of the US.  However, here we can live comfortably with a family of 3 on my single income of ~90k/yr. 

Even if I could make substantially more in the Bay Area, it would be offset by the insane COL relative to where I'm at now.  I can't even imagine paying anywhere near 1M for a home, much less 500k - even in California.

Good luck with your decision!  Personally I'd stash enough money until I could move out of state or to a much lower COL area and retire comfortably.  In your situation, you'll have enough money in 3 years to even be FI in the vast majority of the U.S. - or even overseas.  Would SF might be nice, nothing is better than FI and eliminating the daily grind.

-Brandon

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #119 on: January 24, 2015, 08:23:23 PM »
This thread is a solid reminder of why I would never move to the Bay Area.  Right now I live in northern San Diego which is still considered HCOL vs. the rest of the US.  However, here we can live comfortably with a family of 3 on my single income of ~90k/yr. 

Even if I could make substantially more in the Bay Area, it would be offset by the insane COL relative to where I'm at now.  I can't even imagine paying anywhere near 1M for a home, much less 500k - even in California.

Good luck with your decision!  Personally I'd stash enough money until I could move out of state or to a much lower COL area and retire comfortably.  In your situation, you'll have enough money in 3 years to even be FI in the vast majority of the U.S. - or even overseas.  Would SF might be nice, nothing is better than FI and eliminating the daily grind.

-Brandon

That's the thing... You can live comfortably in the Bay Area with 90k too.  Median household income in San Jose is $80k and those people are not starving.  You may not be able to retire early and live in Palo Alto though

Everytime I think of moving out of state I look at house prices 1-2 hours away

gluskap

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #120 on: January 24, 2015, 09:45:42 PM »
I have considered just being a SAHM to lower our income but then we would be straining to make our mortgage since we live in a HCOL area.

I've never understood this mentality. I would never, ever, ever purposely cut my salary to avoid taxes. Yes, Uncle Sam takes a bigger bite as you go higher, up but you still get to keep the majority of it. It's cutting off your noise to spite your face...or whatever the appropriate idiom is. Why give up all of your extra income just because you'll lose a slightly higher percentage on that bit that exceeds the next tax bracket up?

On a side note, you're new to the boards and stuck your neck out there to get face punched, repeatedly. Welcome! It's actually a good group here. But this is still the Internet-World so innocent enough threads become an excuse to grind everyone's particular brand of axe. But congrats on the salary and being stuck with such a problem! It's nothing to be ashamed of! If anything, it's a great problem to have.

To be honest, I've had the same issue when I was a corporate suit and prior to self-employment (now, I have more tax levers to pull) and I too, always considered myself middle class. Perhaps I shouldn't. But, my blue collar roots and mentality die hard. I get that.

If I actually loved my job then yes quitting to avoid taxes would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. But one of the main reasons I want to FIRE earlier is to have more time to spend with the kid(s). At some point all the hard work and stress to getting to that high income seems less worth it when you are paying so much in taxes. I'd rather make less and have more time, less stress. 

waltworks

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #121 on: January 24, 2015, 09:52:13 PM »
OP, I think a case study might be helpful - it sounds like you guys might have the NW (if you include the house) to move somewhere else and be FI right now. If not, you could probably pull it off fast if you wanted to on your income plus a little frugality.

To put it another way: do you want to spend time with your kids, or live in your expensive house in the bay area? Because right now, assuming you are sitting on a big wad of equity and spending a ton on a huge mortgage, you are literally choosing your house over your kids.

-W

gluskap

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2015, 10:09:43 PM »
maybe someone mentioned this already but root of good covered this subject

six figure income no tax

http://rootofgood.com/make-six-figure-income-pay-no-tax/

I think they were able to optimize their taxes very efficiently and that's what I'd love to be doing too. Unfortunately I only have access to 401k and we are already maxing that out. But I guess we could have more kids! We are actually thinking of maybe having one more kid but are still undecided. 

Just found out hubby might be able to have access to a HSA after all so that would help. 

Moving to a LCOL area might be an option when we are FIRE but our jobs are not that portable. 

Tabaxus

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #123 on: January 25, 2015, 09:10:50 AM »
maybe someone mentioned this already but root of good covered this subject

six figure income no tax

http://rootofgood.com/make-six-figure-income-pay-no-tax/

I think they were able to optimize their taxes very efficiently and that's what I'd love to be doing too. Unfortunately I only have access to 401k and we are already maxing that out. But I guess we could have more kids! We are actually thinking of maybe having one more kid but are still undecided. 

Just found out hubby might be able to have access to a HSA after all so that would help. 

Moving to a LCOL area might be an option when we are FIRE but our jobs are not that portable.

Root of Good has some quality advice, but his post on this topic was very obvious:  "use all tax-deferred space available, with the expectation that taxes will be much lower when withdrawals from that space begin."  He happened to have a ton of tax-deferred space that matched up very well with his incredibly frugal spending.  Nothing particularly insightful there. 

humblefi

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #124 on: January 25, 2015, 01:49:04 PM »
Our family income is much lower than yours and shaky most of the time...but I can understand how money flows away like water in a HCOL area, inspite of many sacrifices.
Not sure how to reduce your taxable income....but here are some thoughts on reducing taxes on gains...ignore if you have already considered it.
+ Try AMT free munis...for example, if your HCOL area is California, then look at VCAIX.
+ Dependent care => you have kid(s). So, a 529 might be useful as well.
+ I am not sure about this...but if you have lots of left over cash, then investing in a rental may be another option for tax reduction.
+ At some point, you may have to watch out for AMT from all the deductions.

Hope it helps.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #125 on: January 26, 2015, 07:56:22 AM »
Wow I'm still a little new to these forums so didn't think this post would get so much discussion.  Just to clarify it was only last year that we both got promotions/new jobs that bumped us each into the six figure salary.  So when getting all our stuff together to start doing our taxes I guess I was a little taken aback by how our income phases us out for a lot of credits.  So I guess my previous middle class mentality hasn't quite caught up to our higher salaries.  It would probably be more fair to say that we are upper middle class/lower upper class now.

oh yeah, I totally relate to this. I went from a $20k grad student salary to my current job, and the first year of taxes was a HUGE shock. thanks to this board I figured out that I should be maxing out my 401k instead of throwing everything above the employer match at my student loans, but it took a minute! glad you got some good advice out of this thread.

starguru

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #126 on: January 26, 2015, 08:11:49 AM »

The top 10% of earners in the country pay ~$580 billion in income taxes with a top marginal rate of 39% or so, compared to a top marginal rate of ~92% on income above $200k after WWII. With the average household AGI for the top 5% at ~400k+, if we increased the top marginal rate to post-WWII levels (increase the rate and lower the income required to hit that rate), it would result in revenues on that top marginal rate of ~$1.30 trillion versus the current marginal rates of 33-40% and revenues of ~.3 trillion, which would wipe out the deficit and leave us with a ~$460 billion surplus.


Just to make sure I understand, raise the highest marginal rate to 90% on the top 10% of earners, which I think is ~120-130k a year (having trouble finding a graph that shows it clearly)?  So every dollar over 120-130k is taxed at 90%? 

If taxes were that high, there would be strong incentive to stop working right before hitting that top rate.  The value of one's time vs dollars being made would completely skewed to the former.  At current rates, while painful, the incentive to stop working doesn't really enter (at least my calculations) but at 90%, I think most would agree the value of the time becomes much more important.   

So in other words, a 90% tax bracket would not bring in any income since most people in that bracket would choose not to work.  You would end up making the deficit worse.


bzzzt

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #127 on: January 26, 2015, 10:48:04 AM »
So in other words, a 90% tax bracket would not bring in any income since most people in that bracket would choose not to work.  You would end up making the deficit worse.

Agreed. You would likely see a lot more paper divorces as well from high earning couples.

I got blindsided at tax time the year we got married. All of a sudden we made too much to deduct her student loan interest. Luckily, (stupidly?) I had knocked them out earlier in the year (2012). Wish I had known about investing. Paying the interest would've seemed cheap compared to market returns.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #128 on: January 26, 2015, 11:15:42 AM »
So in other words, a 90% tax bracket would not bring in any income since most people in that bracket would choose not to work.  You would end up making the deficit worse.

Yes. Republicans like to trot out the Laffer Curve anytime someone proposes even a modest tax increase. Current rates are low enough that most people wouldn't cut back on their work if their taxes went up, but at rates approaching 90% you would see a lot of people making this choice. I know I would have a hard time asking my employer to spend money on a raise if we both knew that the government would get almost all of that money.

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #129 on: January 27, 2015, 11:22:22 AM »

The top 10% of earners in the country pay ~$580 billion in income taxes with a top marginal rate of 39% or so, compared to a top marginal rate of ~92% on income above $200k after WWII. With the average household AGI for the top 5% at ~400k+, if we increased the top marginal rate to post-WWII levels (increase the rate and lower the income required to hit that rate), it would result in revenues on that top marginal rate of ~$1.30 trillion versus the current marginal rates of 33-40% and revenues of ~.3 trillion, which would wipe out the deficit and leave us with a ~$460 billion surplus.


Just to make sure I understand, raise the highest marginal rate to 90% on the top 10% of earners, which I think is ~120-130k a year (having trouble finding a graph that shows it clearly)?  So every dollar over 120-130k is taxed at 90%? 

If taxes were that high, there would be strong incentive to stop working right before hitting that top rate.  The value of one's time vs dollars being made would completely skewed to the former.  At current rates, while painful, the incentive to stop working doesn't really enter (at least my calculations) but at 90%, I think most would agree the value of the time becomes much more important.   

So in other words, a 90% tax bracket would not bring in any income since most people in that bracket would choose not to work.  You would end up making the deficit worse.
I'm not assuming a 90% marginal tax rate at ~$120k-$130k/year. It'd be at ~$200k/year in my example. What you're positing would be accurate if people made an hourly wage and grossed ~$200k+/year, but most people/couples that earn ~$200k+/year aren't hourly. The only thing a high marginal rate would do is reduce their net income.

Most, if not all, would still choose to take a higher salary, even if they're only keeping 1/10 dollars above $200k/year instead of 6(or less depending on state income taxes)/10 dollars with current taxes. The amount they'll work will remain the same, but their net income after taxes will decrease.

In terms of making the deficit worse, lets say no CEO/lawyer/etc... would even think of working for more than $200k/year, even there's no reason not to, after this new tax rate is enacted. The current marginal rates above ~$200k account for ~$.3 trillion/year in receipts, so in this situation none of that would be taxed.

Having said that, federal tax receipts wouldn't drop by that amount because companies would have a ton of money left over from not paying anyone more than $200k/year, and they would be able to increase existing salaries and/or hire more people. All of those people would pay income tax, so there federal government would still get a lot in tax, but it wouldn't get quite as much because the marginal rate for those people making less than $200k isn't as high as the rate for those making above $200k.

Having said that, just because federal tax receipts decline in this situation, doesn't mean the deficit would increase. With more money going towards lower income people, more of that money will be spent (The lower your income, the more you spend) which will likely do two things. The first off is that it will stimulate the economy, which might provide some benefits. But more importantly, there will be more local spending and local tax revenue would increase.

Since local (state, county, and city) governments would have more money from tax revenues to spend on services/infrastructure, they wouldn't need as much money from the federal government. This would be a situation where the deficit wouldn't get worse even as tax receipts dropped because federal spending would also drop.

Having said that, if the local governments did a crappy job with spending, then the federal government would still need to provide funds, and the deficit would increase, but in that case it would be because of poor spending of taxes at the local level, not because the increase in taxes resulted in the wealthiest Americans working less.

ender

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #130 on: January 27, 2015, 01:31:56 PM »
Me and the hubby's combined income is now at $233k.  Even though we are maxing out both of our 401k, so subtract $36k, we are phased out of most of the good tax deductions...ie Child Tax Credit, Roth IRA contributions, traditional IRA deductions, education credits, etc.  We have the mortgage interest deduction but we are just refinancing to a 15 year so that deduction will probably become less than the standard deduction next year.  We also put the max $5k into the Dependant Care FSA and some into the health care FSA, we don't have access to a HSA.  Is there anything else we can deduct to lower our MAGI?

I have considered just being a SAHM to lower our income but then we would be straining to make our mortgage since we live in a HCOL area.  It would be awesome if I could work part time but that's not an option at my current job.  Maybe a career change to a less stressful lower paying job might be an option at some point.  Or should I just suck it up and save as much as we can and then just FIRE earlier?  Anyone else in the same situation and just want to commiserate?

Ok, so let's look at this a bit more analytically.

You are maxing two 401ks and $5k in your FS. So your taxable income is about $192k/year. Looks like this should be about $40k in federal income tax ignoring all deductions/exemptions/etc. Estimate another $10k for FICA and $20k for CA taxes leaves you with about $132k worth of take home pay, per year. This is probably low because I basically ignored any standard exemptions or deductions. It's possible you owe more in FICA depending on your incomes.

$132k yearly takehome pay translates to $11,000 per month. Guesstimating your mortgage at $5k a month, you have about $6000 per month additional in takehome pay for life expenses (food, utilities, clothing, etc).

Even if you manage to somehow spend $3000 on those you still have another $3000 to invest in whatever you want. Each year you should very easily be able to save close to $40k in taxable accounts or backdoor Roth IRAs and this isn't even remotely as much as is possible if you reduce that $3k/month spending.

Saving $75k+ a year in investments plus whatever company match you have is a fast track to being able to FIRE, especially if you are not heavily tied to your current location.

To answer your question, you probably can take some advantage of the following:

  • Charitable giving
  • 529 or other educational saving plans

If you are very serious about reducing your taxes, you might even explore whether you can start your own company and thus be able to put more than $18k into a 401k (total employer/employee contribution is about $50k/year). It might take some work but your employer might not care as long as the total cost to them is the same. As the company owner you have a lot more options. Definitely consult folks familiar with this if you go this route. You could also conceivably end up with a HDHP for HSA benefits too (though presumably this is worse than your current insurance?)

NewStachian

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #131 on: January 27, 2015, 01:46:35 PM »
I haven't read all the responses here, so maybe it's already been covered... but reducing your income to reduce your tax burden is generally not a sound plan if you're trying to reach FI.

randommadness

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #132 on: January 27, 2015, 06:02:16 PM »

In retirement, I wouldn't be so concerned about income taxes, but the introduction of a large sales tax (such as the so-called "FairTax") would definitely make me leave the US immediately.


Ahhh but wouldn't it be nice to have all that extra money to save while you worked =D

starguru

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #133 on: January 27, 2015, 07:04:10 PM »

The top 10% of earners in the country pay ~$580 billion in income taxes with a top marginal rate of 39% or so, compared to a top marginal rate of ~92% on income above $200k after WWII. With the average household AGI for the top 5% at ~400k+, if we increased the top marginal rate to post-WWII levels (increase the rate and lower the income required to hit that rate), it would result in revenues on that top marginal rate of ~$1.30 trillion versus the current marginal rates of 33-40% and revenues of ~.3 trillion, which would wipe out the deficit and leave us with a ~$460 billion surplus.


Just to make sure I understand, raise the highest marginal rate to 90% on the top 10% of earners, which I think is ~120-130k a year (having trouble finding a graph that shows it clearly)?  So every dollar over 120-130k is taxed at 90%? 

If taxes were that high, there would be strong incentive to stop working right before hitting that top rate.  The value of one's time vs dollars being made would completely skewed to the former.  At current rates, while painful, the incentive to stop working doesn't really enter (at least my calculations) but at 90%, I think most would agree the value of the time becomes much more important.   

So in other words, a 90% tax bracket would not bring in any income since most people in that bracket would choose not to work.  You would end up making the deficit worse.
I'm not assuming a 90% marginal tax rate at ~$120k-$130k/year. It'd be at ~$200k/year in my example. What you're positing would be accurate if people made an hourly wage and grossed ~$200k+/year, but most people/couples that earn ~$200k+/year aren't hourly. The only thing a high marginal rate would do is reduce their net income.

Most, if not all, would still choose to take a higher salary, even if they're only keeping 1/10 dollars above $200k/year instead of 6(or less depending on state income taxes)/10 dollars with current taxes. The amount they'll work will remain the same, but their net income after taxes will decrease.

In terms of making the deficit worse, lets say no CEO/lawyer/etc... would even think of working for more than $200k/year, even there's no reason not to, after this new tax rate is enacted. The current marginal rates above ~$200k account for ~$.3 trillion/year in receipts, so in this situation none of that would be taxed.

Having said that, federal tax receipts wouldn't drop by that amount because companies would have a ton of money left over from not paying anyone more than $200k/year, and they would be able to increase existing salaries and/or hire more people. All of those people would pay income tax, so there federal government would still get a lot in tax, but it wouldn't get quite as much because the marginal rate for those people making less than $200k isn't as high as the rate for those making above $200k.

Having said that, just because federal tax receipts decline in this situation, doesn't mean the deficit would increase. With more money going towards lower income people, more of that money will be spent (The lower your income, the more you spend) which will likely do two things. The first off is that it will stimulate the economy, which might provide some benefits. But more importantly, there will be more local spending and local tax revenue would increase.

Since local (state, county, and city) governments would have more money from tax revenues to spend on services/infrastructure, they wouldn't need as much money from the federal government. This would be a situation where the deficit wouldn't get worse even as tax receipts dropped because federal spending would also drop.

Having said that, if the local governments did a crappy job with spending, then the federal government would still need to provide funds, and the deficit would increase, but in that case it would be because of poor spending of taxes at the local level, not because the increase in taxes resulted in the wealthiest Americans working less.

Wait wait wait,  you wrote

"The top 10% of earners in the country pay ~$580 billion in income taxes with a top marginal rate of 39% or so, compared to a top marginal rate of ~92% on income above $200k after WWII. With the average household AGI for the top 5% at ~400k+, if we increased the top marginal rate to post-WWII levels (increase the rate and lower the income required to hit that rate), it would result in revenues on that top marginal rate of ~$1.30 trillion versus the current marginal rates of 33-40% and revenues of ~.3 trillion, which would wipe out the deficit and leave us with a ~$460 billion surplus."

You are talking about raising the rate and lowering the threshold at which that rate applies?  What and what? 

Which table in the links you provides shows that raising the rates on whatever income (please define) will result in taxes of $1.3 trillion?

You also write

"What you're positing would be accurate if people made an hourly wage and grossed ~$200k+/year, but most people/couples that earn ~$200k+/year aren't hourly. The only thing a high marginal rate would do is reduce their net income....Most, if not all, would still choose to take a higher salary, even if they're only keeping 1/10 dollars above $200k/year instead of 6(or less depending on state income taxes)/10 dollars with current taxes. The amount they'll work will remain the same, but their net income after taxes will decrease."

That is utter nonsense.  People would either: 1) have their income changed from salary to some sort of non-wage incentive, or 2) switch to hourly.  In fact, I actually had the thought that in this situation I would go back to being a contractor and work 6-8 months a year.  What would happen is that none would get payed higher than 200k in wages.  They'd either work less, or get some other form of compensation.  It makes no sense to work 1000 hours for 200k and work 2000 hours for 220k.  Those last 1000 hours net 20k, very few would do that.



DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #134 on: January 28, 2015, 07:32:59 PM »
Yup, exactamundo. I'm not just talking about raising the top marginal rate and lowering the bracket arbitrarily. I'm using the top marginal rate and bracket from the US post-WWII.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Historical_Mariginal_Tax_Rate_for_Highest_and_Lowest_Income_Earners.jpg

At that time we had more (real) debt than we do now, and managed to pay it down very quickly because of reduced spending and higher taxes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Federal_Debt_Held_by_the_Public_1790-2013.png/425px-Federal_Debt_Held_by_the_Public_1790-2013.png

The links and definitions should be in post 105 (above). Let me know politely if anything from there is unclear.

Also, please keep ad hominems to a minimum. You may think people working with a marginal 90% tax rate is "utter nonsense", but it happened after WWII and I haven't seen any examples of people working less in the aggregate because of that high marginal tax rate.

If you're lucky enough to make $100+/hour and work 40 hours/week as a contractor, then you would probably cut back on hours, but most high earners aren't in that boat. They're salary, and they're going to work a full work week regardless of what their top marginal tax rate is. Some people may also be able to work for some of the year, but again, most don't have that luxury because business runs 24/7/365. They can try to negotiate a reduced work schedule, but there's a good chance someone making $160k/year full time will be willing to take their position for $250k/year full time, even if that last $40k is taxed at 90%.

In any event, I think this is getting a little off track in terms of the overall message. Like I said before, I don't think that the only the top marginal rate should increase, I think that everyone should pay more in taxes to pay down US government debt, just like we did after WWII. I also think we should audit and minimize federal spending, especially defense spending, just like we did after WWII. Both of those will allow us to aggressively reduce debt and will also likely benefit the economy.

starguru

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #135 on: January 28, 2015, 08:01:01 PM »
Yup, exactamundo. I'm not just talking about raising the top marginal rate and lowering the bracket arbitrarily. I'm using the top marginal rate and bracket from the US post-WWII.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Historical_Mariginal_Tax_Rate_for_Highest_and_Lowest_Income_Earners.jpg

At that time we had more (real) debt than we do now, and managed to pay it down very quickly because of reduced spending and higher taxes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Federal_Debt_Held_by_the_Public_1790-2013.png/425px-Federal_Debt_Held_by_the_Public_1790-2013.png

The links and definitions should be in post 105 (above). Let me know politely if anything from there is unclear.

Which chart shows raising taxes on who will raise $1.3trillion?  Please define the rates, the incomes, and which data support this.

beltim

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #136 on: January 28, 2015, 08:16:54 PM »
DarinC:  When top marginal tax rates were 90%, after 1945, the total tax collected by the federal government was just under 19.8% of GDP.1  What are they today?  About 18.3% of GDP.2 

1  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/year_revenue_1945USpn_16ps1n#usgs302
2  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/year_revenue_2015USpn_16ps1n#usgs302

NICE!

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #137 on: January 28, 2015, 09:26:41 PM »
Yup, exactamundo. I'm not just talking about raising the top marginal rate and lowering the bracket arbitrarily. I'm using the top marginal rate and bracket from the US post-WWII.

A couple things here:

1) I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't ignore a previous poster or the simple facts regarding the post-WWII economy. The US was the ONLY remaining large, developed economy after WWII. This put the US in the position for unprecedented exports, high wages, political stability, and to become the world's reserve currency & free-trade advocate. Tax rates from this era have ZERO relation to the complex global economy of today and if you can't recognize that I simply don't know what to say. If you don't think you'll see massive brain drain or job loss then you need to sit down with a macroeconomics textbook.

2) Ah, the "good old days." I love it when people harken back to eras such as this - times when 20% of the population couldn't vote and faced discriminatory hiring practices which, guess what, kept those high-paying manufacturing jobs reserved for white men in unions.

3) Other aspects of confiscatory rates like the ones you support are increases in tax avoidance and tax evasion, not to mention expatriation. The black market economy would quite simply explode.

aschmidt2930

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #138 on: January 28, 2015, 09:35:18 PM »
Quote

this post boggles my mind. I kind of hate throwing out numbers like this on the internet, but I grossed $180k in 2014 and I'm single with no kids and no mortgage. I'm pretty sure I know what it's like to pay "that kind of money" to the government, but the idea that there is anything "ohhh, poor me" about that scenario is seriously insane to me.

Its not a "poor me" thing, but more a "when is enough is enough" thing and a "is this really going to solve any problems" thing. 

So lets see, 180k, so your marginal rate is 28%, but i bet your effective rate is more like 20-23% especially if you are self employed, since you could effectively put 45k away in tax deferred retirement plans.  Plus the last 2 tax increases from Obama haven't affected you.  At all.  So your rates haven't gone up. 

Imagine someone saying you should pay 10% more.   Would you be happy writing an $18k check?  Do you feel your money would actually help anyone? 

I bet your perspective would change.  Even if it didn't, since raising taxes isnt going to fix any problems, there will be calls to raise them even more, so the next tax increase will change your perspective, or the one after that. 

Since there are so many people without savings out there, what if the plan was to tax savings, you know, to make things more fair?  Like 1% for anyone with more than 100k in the bank, back to the first dollar?  Would people care then?  Of course they would, because it would actually affect them.

Can you elaborate on how increased government revenues (read: schools, roads) won't fix anything?

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #139 on: January 28, 2015, 10:13:42 PM »

Can you elaborate on how increased government revenues (read: schools, roads) won't fix anything?

I read increased government revenues as (drones, bombs)

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #140 on: January 28, 2015, 10:56:11 PM »
Yup, exactamundo. I'm not just talking about raising the top marginal rate and lowering the bracket arbitrarily. I'm using the top marginal rate and bracket from the US post-WWII.

Except you're ignoring inflation, which does make it pretty arbitrary.

$200,000 in 1945 dollars is $2.6 million in 2014 dollars (using the CPI, which has its own issues, but it's good enough to make this point).

Here's the correct way to calculate this:

$200,000 in 2014 dollars is $15,206.81 in 1945 dollars. Under the Revenue Act of 1945, somebody with an AGI of $15,206.81 and 1 exemption would pay a  "normal tax" of $419 plus a "surtax" of $3,943 for a total income tax of $4,363, representing a tax rate of 28.7% on $200,000 of 2014 income. That is a bit higher than today's rates, but not dramatically so, and it's important to emphasise that that was the rate at the point of highest taxes in US history. At almost any other point in US history, it would have been less.

So really, current rates are not especially low -- they are a bit lower than the peak of US taxation, but higher than most of US history, when you account for inflation.
I think the technical term for a tax like that is "progressive", but I don't disagree with the rest.

I'm not ignoring inflation either, just setting the same absolute bracket, which would result in the US debt being paid down faster.

If the "1%" from my earlier link on federal income tax by source had to pay the rates from your link, on average their real marginal tax rate would go to 80+% from 40%, and tax receipts would increase by ~$250 billion per year. This is dramatically higher than today's rates. As income drops, the gap wouldn't be that large, but it would still be significant.

Like I've said at least three times before (Fourth time's the charm?), I'm not suggesting that only people making above $200k/year should pay more in taxes. I think everyone should, since it would substantially increase receipts, per the link you provided.

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #141 on: January 28, 2015, 11:09:17 PM »
Which chart shows raising taxes on who will raise $1.3trillion?  Please define the rates, the incomes, and which data support this.

The links and definitions should be in post 105 (above). Let me know politely if anything from there is unclear.

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #142 on: January 28, 2015, 11:13:01 PM »
DarinC:  When top marginal tax rates were 90%, after 1945, the total tax collected by the federal government was just under 19.8% of GDP.1  What are they today?  About 18.3% of GDP.2 

1  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/year_revenue_1945USpn_16ps1n#usgs302
2  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/year_revenue_2015USpn_16ps1n#usgs302
I don't dispute any of that. In 1944 it was higher at ~20.5%.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

A difference of 2.2% of GDP is not insignificant. In fact it's likely ~70% of the 2014 deficit.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stancollender/2014/09/16/the-federal-budget-deficit-has-disappeared-really/

Like I said before, I think tax rates in general are too low given the national debt. Spending is also too high, especially in defense, just to make that clear for the third time I think...

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #143 on: January 28, 2015, 11:14:58 PM »

Can you elaborate on how increased government revenues (read: schools, roads) won't fix anything?

I read increased government revenues as (drones, bombs)

Cuts to defense spending should minimize that.

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #144 on: January 28, 2015, 11:28:33 PM »
Yup, exactamundo. I'm not just talking about raising the top marginal rate and lowering the bracket arbitrarily. I'm using the top marginal rate and bracket from the US post-WWII.

A couple things here:

1) I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't ignore a previous poster or the simple facts regarding the post-WWII economy. The US was the ONLY remaining large, developed economy after WWII. This put the US in the position for unprecedented exports, high wages, political stability, and to become the world's reserve currency & free-trade advocate. Tax rates from this era have ZERO relation to the complex global economy of today and if you can't recognize that I simply don't know what to say. If you don't think you'll see massive brain drain or job loss then you need to sit down with a macroeconomics textbook.

2) Ah, the "good old days." I love it when people harken back to eras such as this - times when 20% of the population couldn't vote and faced discriminatory hiring practices which, guess what, kept those high-paying manufacturing jobs reserved for white men in unions.

3) Other aspects of confiscatory rates like the ones you support are increases in tax avoidance and tax evasion, not to mention expatriation. The black market economy would quite simply explode.

Look, I love ad hominems and straw men as much as the next guy, but I appreciate well reasoned and well supported posts more.

FYI, if someone can turn an argument around by changing a few words, it's not...

Like...

Quote
1) I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't ignore a previous poster or the simple facts regarding the post-WWII economy income inequality. The US was the ONLY remaining large, developed economy after WWII and a progressive tax system along with higher rates helped the economy significantly. This put the US in the position for unprecedented exports, high wages, political stability, and to become the world's reserve currency & free-trade advocate. Tax rates from this era have ZERO relation a significant connection to the complex global economy of today and if you can't recognize that I simply don't know what to say. If you don't think you'll see massive brain drain or job loss then you need to sit down with a macroeconomics textbook.

jmusic

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #145 on: January 28, 2015, 11:51:30 PM »

Can you elaborate on how increased government revenues (read: schools, roads) won't fix anything?

I read increased government revenues as (drones, bombs)

Cuts to defense spending should minimize that.

Hey!  That's my paycheck you're talking about!

chasesfish

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2015, 05:24:06 AM »
Me and the hubby's combined income is now at $233k.  Even though we are maxing out both of our 401k, so subtract $36k, we are phased out of most of the good tax deductions...ie Child Tax Credit, Roth IRA contributions, traditional IRA deductions, education credits, etc.  We have the mortgage interest deduction but we are just refinancing to a 15 year so that deduction will probably become less than the standard deduction next year.  We also put the max $5k into the Dependant Care FSA and some into the health care FSA, we don't have access to a HSA.  Is there anything else we can deduct to lower our MAGI?

I have considered just being a SAHM to lower our income but then we would be straining to make our mortgage since we live in a HCOL area.  It would be awesome if I could work part time but that's not an option at my current job.  Maybe a career change to a less stressful lower paying job might be an option at some point.  Or should I just suck it up and save as much as we can and then just FIRE earlier?  Anyone else in the same situation and just want to commiserate?

Tons of replies already...

The reality is everything you describe is accurate and its a function of a progressive tax code.  Its far more progressive than the stated rates because of all the phase outs, deductions, ect.  You have one of two choices - decide if you can cut expenses and live on one income, or continue to work and give up almost 50% of your earnings to Uncle Sam + State of California.

Its not a trap, because you still have "more" money for each dollar you earn, its just the % you keep drops dramatically.  Its basic math, at some point between a worker keeping 100% of their earnings and 0% of their earnings, they will choose to stop working.  You might have hit that point


starguru

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #147 on: January 29, 2015, 07:09:58 AM »
Which chart shows raising taxes on who will raise $1.3trillion?  Please define the rates, the incomes, and which data support this.

The links and definitions should be in post 105 (above). Let me know politely if anything from there is unclear.

This is not helpful.  You are throwing around so many general numbers and not laying out anything specific in 105.  I think you wrote raising the rate on 200k back to 92%, but I cant find any chart that indicates that would raise the required amount.  But you also talk about raising taxes on everyone, so Im not sure you intend for that 1 tax to take care of the entire sum.

I have looked at the charts you provided; for example this link

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data

Im not seeing anything that clearly lays out how much income remains above the top marginal rate limit, therefore cannot even begin to figure out how you are getting to 1.3 trillion, and who would pay what.

I strongly disagree with your confidence that people would just take it and keep working against higher taxes that reduces their equivalent $/hr to below minimum wage, once above the marginal rate, but we can just disagree on that.  This is never going to happen.

Regarding your general point though, that everyone should pay more regardless of what it costs them to address the debt/deficit, hey at least its more balanced than what a lot of others think.  No element of class warfare in this argument, just "we could address the debt with more taxes."  Certainly there is 1.3trillion to be had if you are willing to raise taxes, especially on everyone. 

eyePod

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2015, 07:39:56 AM »
I won't consider myself middle class when I'm retired. I don't think it makes much sense to define classes based on income (other than passive income).

.....do you know the definition of the term you are talking about?

class - "the system of ordering a society in which people are divided into sets based on perceived social or economic status"

America doesn't have social classes, at least not in the formal sense of days past, so when we speak about class we speak almost entirely about economics -- namely income, for the majority of people in this country.  You can choose to make up your own definitions for words, but just because you decide that ketchup is now a synonym for automobile does not make it so.

It's not as if there is an "official" definition of middle class.

You seem to be conflating "economic status" with "income".

Income is fleeting.

Wealth and economic status is more a function of net worth and/or passive income.

Isn't that one of the major principles of this website? Why do we do discard that in defining classes?

I'd argue that "economic status" in the US is how much you spend regardless of income.

retired?

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2015, 08:04:16 AM »
DarinC:  When top marginal tax rates were 90%, after 1945, the total tax collected by the federal government was just under 19.8% of GDP.1  What are they today?  About 18.3% of GDP.2 

1  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/year_revenue_1945USpn_16ps1n#usgs302
2  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/year_revenue_2015USpn_16ps1n#usgs302
I don't dispute any of that. In 1944 it was higher at ~20.5%.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

A difference of 2.2% of GDP is not insignificant. In fact it's likely ~70% of the 2014 deficit.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stancollender/2014/09/16/the-federal-budget-deficit-has-disappeared-really/

Like I said before, I think tax rates in general are too low given the national debt. Spending is also too high, especially in defense, just to make that clear for the third time I think...

Don't feel like looking up, but from what I recall, almost no people actually paid that top tax rate of 90%.  It's annoying when people try to make current rates sound low by referring to that.

Each person will likely feel rates are too high if they think the govt is spending lots of $$ on things they do not agree with and is beyond the Fed's responsibility (me) but would be willing to pay a little more if they agree with policies.

Generally, though, it seems additional spending is never matched by increased taxes or spending cuts in other areas.  So, debt continues to rise and, if the Fed chooses to 'pay' for it by devaluing the $, it hurts almost everyone.

I'd choose to lower debt by decreased spending.  If the govt were a Mustachian, that's what it would decide to do.  ; )