Author Topic: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)  (Read 11166 times)

TVRodriguez

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Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« on: December 11, 2019, 06:52:22 AM »
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article238233174.html?

Article about the best US states in which to retire.  Not early retirement, but still. Light on information, and focused on Florida not making the top five. I still found it interesting.

TVRodriguez

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2019, 07:12:41 AM »
Sorry, forgot to post the list from the article:


THE 10 BEST STATES FOR RETIREES

1. Iowa

2. Minnesota

3. Vermont

4. Wisconsin

5. Nebraska

6. Idaho

7. Maine

8. New Hampshire

9. Florida

10. North Dakota


LaineyAZ

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2019, 07:23:09 AM »
All are winter weather states except for Florida.  I think they're underestimating how many retirees do not want to deal with snow and ice anymore.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2019, 07:51:30 AM »
All are winter weather states except for Florida.  I think they're underestimating how many retirees do not want to deal with snow and ice anymore.
FWIW, plenty of Californians are retiring in Idaho. So people do move to colder climates, too.

saguaro

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2019, 08:15:10 AM »
I found it interesting as well, that it's not necessarily all warm weather states.

I am not keen on the cold weather but even less keen on having to drive through snow and ice to get to work.  Retirement would solve that problem, so living in a cold weather area might be more tolerable to me as a retiree.   Believe it or not, DH and I have considered moving to Iowa (Des Moines area) or Nebraska (Omaha).  And Wisconsin is 10 miles to the north of us so that wouldn't be much of a move if we went there.  We haven't decided yet, things still being discussed.

I can see Californians retiring to Idaho.  I personally knew a born and raised Californian who, between living in California, Arizona and Wisconsin, preferred Wisconsin because of 1. Four seasons and 2.  Things weren't as brown, more green.


2sk22

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2019, 08:19:30 AM »
What fraction of retirees actually move though? My guess is that the vast majority of retirees probably don't move anywhere after retirement.

Added: My hunch seems on the mark: https://www.aarp.org/retirement/planning-for-retirement/info-2018/retirees-age-in-place-aarp-study.html
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 08:21:27 AM by 2sk22 »

TVRodriguez

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2019, 08:42:37 AM »
Also from the article:

THE FIVE WORST STATES FOR RETIREES
1. Alaska

2. Hawaii

3. California

4. Maryland

5. Louisiana

"The Best and Worst States for Retirees survey, done by the Blacktower US Financial Management Group, factored in metrics like the cost of living, crime rates, life expectancy, property prices and population age to make that call."

"And then there’s that pesky issue of sea level rise, which the survey folks didn’t take into account but the problem certainly is on our mind."


Link to original source:  https://www.blacktowerus.com/the-best-us-states-for-retirees/

iris lily

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2019, 09:14:02 AM »
I found it interesting as well, that it's not necessarily all warm weather states.

I am not keen on the cold weather but even less keen on having to drive through snow and ice to get to work.  Retirement would solve that problem, so living in a cold weather area might be more tolerable to me as a retiree.   Believe it or not, DH and I have considered moving to Iowa (Des Moines area) or Nebraska (Omaha).  And Wisconsin is 10 miles to the north of us so that wouldn't be much of a move if we went there.  We haven't decided yet, things still being discussed.

I can see Californians retiring to Idaho.  I personally knew a born and raised Californian who, between living in California, Arizona and Wisconsin, preferred Wisconsin because of 1. Four seasons and 2.  Things weren't as brown, more green.

Iowa is my home state.

Des Moines is tolerable as a city with enough stuff going on to make it liveable.

Iowa City has more interest-per-square-foot.

My adopted state, Missouri,  has a high crime rate due to my city, St. Louis.

The crime rate of another state I have lived in, New Mexico, is hideous. Whoah! I had no idea. Where is all that crime coming from?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 09:20:00 AM by iris lily »

fattest_foot

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2019, 09:43:42 AM »
Looking at places to retire, especially for early retirement, state tax policy kept coming towards the top of the heap as one of the most important factors.

The list of states that tax long term capital gains as earned income is pretty high. And this makes even something like a Roth conversion ladder pretty hard to pull off.

undercover

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2019, 10:26:50 AM »
What fraction of retirees actually move though? My guess is that the vast majority of retirees probably don't move anywhere after retirement.

Added: My hunch seems on the mark: https://www.aarp.org/retirement/planning-for-retirement/info-2018/retirees-age-in-place-aarp-study.html

Most people would rather stick with what they know and at the end of the day do not really give a shit about how much marginally better a place’s food, art, and weather is.

There is no “best” place to live - for anyone. Geographic arbitrage can be good for your career and/or income, but other than that, there’s pros and cons to every single place on earth.

Cassie

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2019, 10:28:00 AM »
I am from Wisconsin and property taxes are high. In our state they are low and we have no income taxes.

Bateaux

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2019, 11:17:32 AM »
All I see is cold, cold, cold, cold except for Florida.

golfreak12

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2019, 11:23:42 AM »
All I see is cold, cold, cold, cold except for Florida.

YUP. I don't know about you guys but if I'm retiring I do not want to live in a cold state.
No wonder so many retirees are moving to Florida.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2019, 11:32:26 AM »
No wonder so many retirees are moving to Florida.
...which is why those who enjoy four seasons can find lower cost of living, better healthcare, and lower crime rates in states on top of the list.

EvenSteven

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2019, 12:10:43 PM »
I found it interesting as well, that it's not necessarily all warm weather states.

I am not keen on the cold weather but even less keen on having to drive through snow and ice to get to work.  Retirement would solve that problem, so living in a cold weather area might be more tolerable to me as a retiree.   Believe it or not, DH and I have considered moving to Iowa (Des Moines area) or Nebraska (Omaha).  And Wisconsin is 10 miles to the north of us so that wouldn't be much of a move if we went there.  We haven't decided yet, things still being discussed.

I can see Californians retiring to Idaho.  I personally knew a born and raised Californian who, between living in California, Arizona and Wisconsin, preferred Wisconsin because of 1. Four seasons and 2.  Things weren't as brown, more green.

Iowa is my home state.

Des Moines is tolerable as a city with enough stuff going on to make it liveable.

Iowa City has more interest-per-square-foot.

My adopted state, Missouri,  has a high crime rate due to my city, St. Louis.

The crime rate of another state I have lived in, New Mexico, is hideous. Whoah! I had no idea. Where is all that crime coming from?

Heisenberg.

TVRodriguez

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2019, 12:19:10 PM »
No wonder so many retirees are moving to Florida.
...which is why those who enjoy four seasons can find lower cost of living, better healthcare, and lower crime rates in states on top of the list.

Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.

LifeHappens

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2019, 12:28:09 PM »
No wonder so many retirees are moving to Florida.
...which is why those who enjoy four seasons can find lower cost of living, better healthcare, and lower crime rates in states on top of the list.

Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.
The Seinfeld episodes featuring his parents in Florida were not that far off...

GodlessCommie

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2019, 12:32:25 PM »
Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.

Crime rate is listed in survey. Retirees or not, Florida and Arizona have higher crime rates than states above Florida in that list.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2019, 12:52:07 PM »
No way in hell I’m retiring to where it’s cold.

stoaX

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2019, 01:18:17 PM »
Where to retire is such an individual decision that I find little to no value in these kinds of lists.  And within states there is a wide variety of factors that make one part of the state more appealing than another. Crime rates, for example, are much more important at the city or neighborhood level than at the state level.

States without an income tax, like FL or NH, might be appealing to a retiree on a pension.  For me, my annual taxable in retirement is so small that the income tax structure in any given state is of little consequence.  Property taxes and health insurance costs are a concern for me.

Do your own research.

golfreak12

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2019, 01:28:26 PM »
Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.

Crime rate is listed in survey. Retirees or not, Florida and Arizona have higher crime rates than states above Florida in that list.

I apologize before hand because some of the stuff I'm going to say may sound very ignorant.

[MOD EDIT: some ignorant, bigoted stuff]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 04:47:17 PM by FrugalToque »

mm1970

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2019, 01:29:42 PM »
Brrr

lutorm

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2019, 01:34:26 PM »
I'm surprised state-averaged crime rate would be a concern for anyone. I'm willing to bet that the differences in crime rate between different locations in every state are vastly larger than the state-to-state averaged difference. If you care about crime rate, maybe pick your city or part of a city based on that. But state?

TVRodriguez

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2019, 01:38:46 PM »
Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.

Crime rate is listed in survey. Retirees or not, Florida and Arizona have higher crime rates than states above Florida in that list.

Um, thanks, I did see that the crime rate was part of the survey . . . I was joking that it sounded like your earlier post was implying that the higher crime rate was due to the retirees.   Never mind, it obviously wasn't very funny.

DeniseNJ

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2019, 01:55:55 PM »
Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.

Crime rate is listed in survey. Retirees or not, Florida and Arizona have higher crime rates than states above Florida in that list.

I apologize before hand because some of the stuff I'm going to say may sound very ignorant.

[MOD EDIT: snipped]

Nope, you don't get off that easily.  You can't apologize in advance and make a horribly bigoted comment and think no one will mind.  There is nothing in the PR culture or biology that embraces crime.  Maybe the PRs go there bc that's the only place they can afford bc it's crappy, or bc that's the only place non-hispanics will rent to them, or bc they are all rich and attract higher crime rates, or bc bigots attack them raising violent crime rates.  Or maybe it's a high crime area bc it's a cheap poverty stricken area full of despaerate ppl that want to eat.  A place may have ppl of a certain culture and be high crime but it's not bc of cultural issues, more often it's economic.

There are lots of types of crime and there are lots of reasons that ppl commit crimes and none of them is bc they are Puerto Rican.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 04:47:51 PM by FrugalToque »

Cranky

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2019, 02:35:18 PM »
Having grown up in Florida, and spent a lot of time there, pretty typically people retire and move to Florida, play a lot of golf, and then a decade into retirement, the guy dies. Then the widow packs up and moves back north to be closer to family, because life in a golf community was his fantasy not hers. YMMV, of course.

TVRodriguez

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2019, 07:50:24 PM »
Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.

Crime rate is listed in survey. Retirees or not, Florida and Arizona have higher crime rates than states above Florida in that list.

I apologize before hand because some of the stuff I'm going to say may sound very ignorant.

[MOD EDIT: snipped]

Nope, you don't get off that easily.  You can't apologize in advance and make a horribly bigoted comment and think no one will mind.  There is nothing in the PR culture or biology that embraces crime.  Maybe the PRs go there bc that's the only place they can afford bc it's crappy, or bc that's the only place non-hispanics will rent to them, or bc they are all rich and attract higher crime rates, or bc bigots attack them raising violent crime rates.  Or maybe it's a high crime area bc it's a cheap poverty stricken area full of despaerate ppl that want to eat.  A place may have ppl of a certain culture and be high crime but it's not bc of cultural issues, more often it's economic.

There are lots of types of crime and there are lots of reasons that ppl commit crimes and none of them is bc they are Puerto Rican.

Hooboy, how did I miss this earlier?  @DeniseNJ is 100% spot on here. 

Trifle

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2019, 02:40:43 AM »
Yeah, the underlying survey doesn't seem to take into account property taxes, which to me is one of the top factors for a retirement location.  Even if the weather in Wisconsin were tolerable (it isn't) the property taxes are super high.  Signed, Former Wisconsinite who fled. 

dogboyslim

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2019, 12:00:51 PM »
I have lived in 4 of the 10 states.  I don't know who thinks ND is a great place to retire, but I urge them to go there.  Yes its inexpensive with decent medical care, but then there's everything else.

I could retire to MN, WI or ME.  A lot of folks I know love the cold, me included.  Snow is awesome (once you get it off the roads).  I also generally like individuals and hate people.  Maybe I should add ND back onto the list...

2sk22

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2019, 12:54:38 PM »
In all this discussion of taxes, one thing that has to be acknowledged is that ultimately governments need to raise money by taxes somehow to provide services. There are a wide range of choices that different states have adopted, with some states being more progressive than others. The overall intent of progressive taxation is that those who are well-off should pay a larger proportion of the taxes.

I found this website that seems to have a lot of statistics in this regard.

https://itep.org/whopays/

One curious point is that many of the states that are magnets for retirees (such as Florida and Nevada) are, in fact, the most regressive. That is to say, these states raise more of their their money from consumption taxes like sales taxes rather than income taxes. I see Washington in this list too - I was not aware of how regressive their taxes are until I read this article.

Now, a state with more regressive taxation may actually be more favorable to early retirees, who are generally well off. Conversely, for low-income working people, they may be better off living in a progressively taxed state.

My only point in writing this is that when it comes to taxation, people need to carefully look at the full situation before making long-term decisions.

TVRodriguez

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2019, 01:02:46 PM »
In all this discussion of taxes, one thing that has to be acknowledged is that ultimately governments need to raise money by taxes somehow to provide services. There are a wide range of choices that different states have adopted, with some states being more progressive than others. The overall intent of progressive taxation is that those who are well-off should pay a larger proportion of the taxes.

I found this website that seems to have a lot of statistics in this regard.

https://itep.org/whopays/

One curious point is that many of the states that are magnets for retirees (such as Florida and Nevada) are, in fact, the most regressive. That is to say, these states raise more of their their money from consumption taxes like sales taxes rather than income taxes. I see Washington in this list too - I was not aware of how regressive their taxes are until I read this article.

Now, a state with more regressive taxation may actually be more favorable to early retirees, who are generally well off. Conversely, for low-income working people, they may be better off living in a progressively taxed state.

My only point in writing this is that when it comes to taxation, people need to carefully look at the full situation before making long-term decisions.

Good point, but I think that a state like Florida depends more on raising taxes from tourists than from residents.  One hopes that tourists are spending extra disposable cash.

LifeHappens

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2019, 01:15:49 PM »
Good point, but I think that a state like Florida depends more on raising taxes from tourists than from residents.  One hopes that tourists are spending extra disposable cash.
Florida does get a lot of tax revenue from tourists. Bed taxes, car rental surcharges, etc. Non-resident homeowners (aka snowbirds) also pay much higher property taxes. However, residents pay pretty high fees for things like building permits, car registration (the infamous $500 license plate when transferring your car registration into the state) and municipal services.

Cranky

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2019, 01:53:13 PM »
Florida charges a "fee" every time you turn around, instead of income taxes.

fattest_foot

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2019, 02:04:04 PM »
In all this discussion of taxes, one thing that has to be acknowledged is that ultimately governments need to raise money by taxes somehow to provide services. There are a wide range of choices that different states have adopted, with some states being more progressive than others. The overall intent of progressive taxation is that those who are well-off should pay a larger proportion of the taxes.

I found this website that seems to have a lot of statistics in this regard.

https://itep.org/whopays/

One curious point is that many of the states that are magnets for retirees (such as Florida and Nevada) are, in fact, the most regressive. That is to say, these states raise more of their their money from consumption taxes like sales taxes rather than income taxes. I see Washington in this list too - I was not aware of how regressive their taxes are until I read this article.

Now, a state with more regressive taxation may actually be more favorable to early retirees, who are generally well off. Conversely, for low-income working people, they may be better off living in a progressively taxed state.

My only point in writing this is that when it comes to taxation, people need to carefully look at the full situation before making long-term decisions.

I'm not a huge fan of the word "equitable" because it's not a synonym for equality but people use it that way.

I'll be honest, I looked at the list and saw California as the most "equitable" state for taxes and just closed the link (figure 5). Because all that tells me is that tax rates mean absolutely nothing in this ranking. Only that the poor and rich pay close to the same percentage of income. And that's just nonsense. Apparently as long as you tax everyone 50% across the board, that's better than a state that taxes the rich 5% but the poor 10%.

iris lily

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2019, 07:04:35 PM »
I found it interesting as well, that it's not necessarily all warm weather states.

I am not keen on the cold weather but even less keen on having to drive through snow and ice to get to work.  Retirement would solve that problem, so living in a cold weather area might be more tolerable to me as a retiree.   Believe it or not, DH and I have considered moving to Iowa (Des Moines area) or Nebraska (Omaha).  And Wisconsin is 10 miles to the north of us so that wouldn't be much of a move if we went there.  We haven't decided yet, things still being discussed.

I can see Californians retiring to Idaho.  I personally knew a born and raised Californian who, between living in California, Arizona and Wisconsin, preferred Wisconsin because of 1. Four seasons and 2.  Things weren't as brown, more green.

Iowa is my home state.

Des Moines is tolerable as a city with enough stuff going on to make it liveable.

Iowa City has more interest-per-square-foot.

My adopted state, Missouri,  has a high crime rate due to my city, St. Louis.

The crime rate of another state I have lived in, New Mexico, is hideous. Whoah! I had no idea. Where is all that crime coming from?

Heisenberg.

Hahaha!

That reminds me of a real life story about Bryan Cranston. A young guy ran into Cranston in a store. The young guy said “hey there Heisenberg!” Cranston walked up close to him, frowned, and said in a mean voice “Dont  you EVER call me that name in public where people can hear!”

And then Cranston backed off and started laughing, being his real self. That made the young guy’s day.


Channel-Z

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2019, 01:41:44 PM »
I've lived in both Iowa and Minnesota, and even though I'm a Kansas native, I would never consider retiring in those two states. My body just can't handle the cold the way it used to do so.

This weekend will be another reminder if why I would love to quit working someday. I have to work on Sunday afternoon/night, then turn around to work again Monday morning. We're expecting 4-8" of snow beginning Sunday and into Monday. I will be sleeping at work.

BTDretire

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2019, 07:32:19 AM »
No wonder so many retirees are moving to Florida.
...which is why those who enjoy four seasons can find lower cost of living, better healthcare, and lower crime rates in states on top of the list.

Yes, because everyone knows that an influx of retirees just blows up the crime rate :)    I'm flashing back to a Seinfeld episode on senior citizens stealing batteries.

 Here in Florida those "retirees" in the form of snowbirds are stealing the condiments from the restaurant tables, then going to Walmart and Lowes to buy items they use for 3 months, then return them for a refund. And then they go home. Ok, yes. it is a sweeping generalization, but it happens every winter season.

Arbitrage

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2019, 08:57:13 AM »
I don't personally understand the fascination with hot weather.  I haven't lived in Florida, but I've spent (cumulatively) probably about 6-8 months there for work.  Downright miserable for long stretches there.  Sure, I like a good tropical vacation as much as the next person, as long as I'm camped out at the beach, but for living year-round?  No thanks. 

I suppose I've probably lost perspective on cold, as I've lived in California for some time, but I did spend the first half of my life in cold-winter climates. 

Schaefer Light

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2019, 03:11:13 PM »
I'd take a winter in New England over a summer in Florida anytime.
No way.  The heat may be uncomfortable, but the cold is painful.

pdxvandal

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2019, 03:56:01 PM »
I've lived in New England for almost 2 years (no longer), and would never recommend spending summers there unless you're near the coast. Muggy, buggy summers with Boston and NY tourists everywhere. If you're from the West with its dryer climate and few bugs in urban areas, it's tough to get used to.

That all being said, I'd love to have a winter place in Latin America, even if for 2-3 months. I can deal with all kinds of weather, but thinking I'll prefer warmer climates as I get older.

BECABECA

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2019, 06:37:23 PM »
In all this discussion of taxes, one thing that has to be acknowledged is that ultimately governments need to raise money by taxes somehow to provide services. There are a wide range of choices that different states have adopted, with some states being more progressive than others. The overall intent of progressive taxation is that those who are well-off should pay a larger proportion of the taxes.

I found this website that seems to have a lot of statistics in this regard.

https://itep.org/whopays/

One curious point is that many of the states that are magnets for retirees (such as Florida and Nevada) are, in fact, the most regressive. That is to say, these states raise more of their their money from consumption taxes like sales taxes rather than income taxes. I see Washington in this list too - I was not aware of how regressive their taxes are until I read this article.

Now, a state with more regressive taxation may actually be more favorable to early retirees, who are generally well off. Conversely, for low-income working people, they may be better off living in a progressively taxed state.

My only point in writing this is that when it comes to taxation, people need to carefully look at the full situation before making long-term decisions.

I'm not a huge fan of the word "equitable" because it's not a synonym for equality but people use it that way.

I'll be honest, I looked at the list and saw California as the most "equitable" state for taxes and just closed the link (figure 5). Because all that tells me is that tax rates mean absolutely nothing in this ranking. Only that the poor and rich pay close to the same percentage of income. And that's just nonsense. Apparently as long as you tax everyone 50% across the board, that's better than a state that taxes the rich 5% but the poor 10%.

You know what’s nonsense? Announcing on the internet that a study is nonsense without having actually read the study :P

@2sk22 brought up a good point about how taxation might not necessarily be favorable for middle or lower income people in these retirement magnet states.

The most regressive state (Washington!), by having no income tax, needs higher taxes in other areas to support the state. This results in effectively taxing the lowest income 20% of the population at 17.8% while the richest 1% income earners effectively get taxed at 3%. And the middle 60% of earners get taxed at 10.9%. Contrast that with California that effectively taxes the poorest 20% at 10.4%, the middle 60% of earners at 8.9% and the richest 1% at 12.4%. So as long as your income is in the bottom 80% of your state, you’re paying less taxes relative to your income in California than in Washington.

Given the Mustacian emphasis on frugality, most of us are planning on living on lower than average income in retirement. So looking at what a state’s effective tax rates are for the low and middle income earners will likely be more applicable to us than what the top 1% incomes are paying.

henramdrea

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2019, 07:34:51 PM »
This is a good point.  I lived in WA state (Seattle, HCOL) and there weren't a lot of retirees wanting to locate or relocate there.  High property taxes, high sales and gas taxes.  No, there isn't a state income tax.  Could you do a little better in Spokane, WA? Sure, a little better with housing/property taxes.

Now, where do retirees on the west coast really/actually want to live?  Arizona.  I live here now (not yet retired, dang it!) and understand the draw.   The summers are hot, but no more hot than MN is cold in the winter.  8 months out of the year are perfectly livable.  Yes, we have a state income tax, yes we have sales tax, but both are reasonable.
I work with a lot of former snowbirds.  Guess where 100% of them choose to eventually live their final years?  Not in their original home states (SD, IL, MN, IA, NE, etc), but here in AZ.  Usually at some point the adult children follow them down, become snowbirds themselves and start the cycle all over again.  It's the way things have worked here for 50+ years and just seems to accelerate every year.
In all this discussion of taxes, one thing that has to be acknowledged is that ultimately governments need to raise money by taxes somehow to provide services. There are a wide range of choices that different states have adopted, with some states being more progressive than others. The overall intent of progressive taxation is that those who are well-off should pay a larger proportion of the taxes.

I found this website that seems to have a lot of statistics in this regard.

https://itep.org/whopays/

One curious point is that many of the states that are magnets for retirees (such as Florida and Nevada) are, in fact, the most regressive. That is to say, these states raise more of their their money from consumption taxes like sales taxes rather than income taxes. I see Washington in this list too - I was not aware of how regressive their taxes are until I read this article.

Now, a state with more regressive taxation may actually be more favorable to early retirees, who are generally well off. Conversely, for low-income working people, they may be better off living in a progressively taxed state.

My only point in writing this is that when it comes to taxation, people need to carefully look at the full situation before making long-term decisions.

I'm not a huge fan of the word "equitable" because it's not a synonym for equality but people use it that way.

I'll be honest, I looked at the list and saw California as the most "equitable" state for taxes and just closed the link (figure 5). Because all that tells me is that tax rates mean absolutely nothing in this ranking. Only that the poor and rich pay close to the same percentage of income. And that's just nonsense. Apparently as long as you tax everyone 50% across the board, that's better than a state that taxes the rich 5% but the poor 10%.

You know what’s nonsense? Announcing on the internet that a study is nonsense without having actually read the study :P

@2sk22 brought up a good point about how taxation might not necessarily be favorable for middle or lower income people in these retirement magnet states.

The most regressive state (Washington!), by having no income tax, needs higher taxes in other areas to support the state. This results in effectively taxing the lowest income 20% of the population at 17.8% while the richest 1% income earners effectively get taxed at 3%. And the middle 60% of earners get taxed at 10.9%. Contrast that with California that effectively taxes the poorest 20% at 10.4%, the middle 60% of earners at 8.9% and the richest 1% at 12.4%. So as long as your income is in the bottom 80% of your state, you’re paying less taxes relative to your income in California than in Washington.

Given the Mustacian emphasis on frugality, most of us are planning on living on lower than average income in retirement. So looking at what a state’s effective tax rates are for the low and middle income earners will likely be more applicable to us than what the top 1% incomes are paying.

davisgang90

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2019, 04:38:56 AM »
I spent too many years in Florida during my Navy career.  Fun to visit, but a 10 month summer and giant mosquitoes gets real old real quick.  You can have all that.

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2019, 09:37:32 AM »
You know what’s nonsense? Announcing on the internet that a study is nonsense without having actually read the study :P

@2sk22 brought up a good point about how taxation might not necessarily be favorable for middle or lower income people in these retirement magnet states.

The most regressive state (Washington!), by having no income tax, needs higher taxes in other areas to support the state. This results in effectively taxing the lowest income 20% of the population at 17.8% while the richest 1% income earners effectively get taxed at 3%. And the middle 60% of earners get taxed at 10.9%. Contrast that with California that effectively taxes the poorest 20% at 10.4%, the middle 60% of earners at 8.9% and the richest 1% at 12.4%. So as long as your income is in the bottom 80% of your state, you’re paying less taxes relative to your income in California than in Washington.

Given the Mustacian emphasis on frugality, most of us are planning on living on lower than average income in retirement. So looking at what a state’s effective tax rates are for the low and middle income earners will likely be more applicable to us than what the top 1% incomes are paying.

I think you're missing the point I was making. This "study" isn't about total taxation for an individual, nor effective rates, and not even marginal rates. It's only looking at the delta between what the highest income earners and lowest income earners have as their effective rates.

How is that a useful metric for an individual?

If that difference is 20% in one state, but I end up paying 10% effective tax, and it's 2% in another state, but I have a 20% effective tax, you know what state I'm living in? The less "equitable" one.

And it's essentially saying that's somehow "better." I live in California. It's apparently super "equitable." In fact, it's the most equitable state in their list! But all that means is that everyone is getting screwed by the government with high tax rates. But the reality is I don't care if the rich are paying the same tax rate as I am. Awesome, we're in the same boat of getting screwed. I feel so much better now!

Equity doesn't care that California wastes all that tax income, nor does it care that I'd rather pay a lower rate even if it means the rich are paying a lower effective rate (but higher raw dollar amount).

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2019, 10:23:14 AM »
You know what’s nonsense? Announcing on the internet that a study is nonsense without having actually read the study :P

@2sk22 brought up a good point about how taxation might not necessarily be favorable for middle or lower income people in these retirement magnet states.

The most regressive state (Washington!), by having no income tax, needs higher taxes in other areas to support the state. This results in effectively taxing the lowest income 20% of the population at 17.8% while the richest 1% income earners effectively get taxed at 3%. And the middle 60% of earners get taxed at 10.9%. Contrast that with California that effectively taxes the poorest 20% at 10.4%, the middle 60% of earners at 8.9% and the richest 1% at 12.4%. So as long as your income is in the bottom 80% of your state, you’re paying less taxes relative to your income in California than in Washington.

Given the Mustacian emphasis on frugality, most of us are planning on living on lower than average income in retirement. So looking at what a state’s effective tax rates are for the low and middle income earners will likely be more applicable to us than what the top 1% incomes are paying.

I think you're missing the point I was making. This "study" isn't about total taxation for an individual, nor effective rates, and not even marginal rates. It's only looking at the delta between what the highest income earners and lowest income earners have as their effective rates.

How is that a useful metric for an individual?

If that difference is 20% in one state, but I end up paying 10% effective tax, and it's 2% in another state, but I have a 20% effective tax, you know what state I'm living in? The less "equitable" one.

And it's essentially saying that's somehow "better." I live in California. It's apparently super "equitable." In fact, it's the most equitable state in their list! But all that means is that everyone is getting screwed by the government with high tax rates. But the reality is I don't care if the rich are paying the same tax rate as I am. Awesome, we're in the same boat of getting screwed. I feel so much better now!

Equity doesn't care that California wastes all that tax income, nor does it care that I'd rather pay a lower rate even if it means the rich are paying a lower effective rate (but higher raw dollar amount).

Again, if you actually read the study, you’d have seen at the very beginning that it listed the average effective tax rates for all states and that California’s effective taxes are lower than the average for the people making the bottom 80% of income. And that is because the richest 20% aren’t paying significantly less taxes than everybody else, so effective tax rates can stay lower than the national average for the majority of residents.

Your hypothetical example of a state charging 20% effective tax rate across the board is not based in any reality. If there was a state that did that, you’d be welcome to call them out for it, but implying that California is doing this is unacceptably misleading.

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2019, 02:57:07 PM »
No wonder so many retirees are moving to Florida.
...which is why those who enjoy four seasons can find lower cost of living, better healthcare, and lower crime rates in states on top of the list.

Don't be like the folks we knew for a while that moved here to escape taxes and discovered everyone they ever knew lived back in their home state and did not frequently come to visit. After a lonely couple of years they moved home.

Just Joe

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2019, 03:04:51 PM »
I'd take a winter in New England over a summer in Florida anytime.
No way.  The heat may be uncomfortable, but the cold is painful.

Just adopt the siesta lifestyle and you're good.

RE: That Outside magazine article? I would not pick any of those cities. A few I know as expensive places, a few others I know as complicated high traffic, crowded cities. Is Chicago or NYC a TOWN? No, they are mega-cities.

Want a town? Athens, GA or Asheville, NC or Auburn, AL, or Salem, VA or Fayettesville, AR. All those places have outdoorsy things to do and don't involve massive sprawl with loooong commutes.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 03:12:19 PM by Just Joe »

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2019, 03:26:29 PM »
Don't be like the folks we knew for a while that moved here to escape taxes and discovered everyone they ever knew lived back in their home state and did not frequently come to visit. After a lonely couple of years they moved home.

This is something that's very much on my mind. I would much rather be with friends and family in a less than ideal climate than a stranger in paradise. We are social animals after all.

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2019, 03:55:16 PM »
Don't be like the folks we knew for a while that moved here to escape taxes and discovered everyone they ever knew lived back in their home state and did not frequently come to visit. After a lonely couple of years they moved home.

This is something that's very much on my mind. I would much rather be with friends and family in a less than ideal climate than a stranger in paradise. We are social animals after all.
That's true, but anyone who plans on moving is going to face that issue.  I think it is by far the most difficult thing about moving.  And my personal opinion is that it's even tougher when you're single.  If you're married, then you'll know at least one person in your new town very well.

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Re: Miami Herald article with list of best states to retire (US)
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2019, 04:01:39 PM »
You know what’s nonsense? Announcing on the internet that a study is nonsense without having actually read the study :P

@2sk22 brought up a good point about how taxation might not necessarily be favorable for middle or lower income people in these retirement magnet states.

The most regressive state (Washington!), by having no income tax, needs higher taxes in other areas to support the state. This results in effectively taxing the lowest income 20% of the population at 17.8% while the richest 1% income earners effectively get taxed at 3%. And the middle 60% of earners get taxed at 10.9%. Contrast that with California that effectively taxes the poorest 20% at 10.4%, the middle 60% of earners at 8.9% and the richest 1% at 12.4%. So as long as your income is in the bottom 80% of your state, you’re paying less taxes relative to your income in California than in Washington.

Given the Mustacian emphasis on frugality, most of us are planning on living on lower than average income in retirement. So looking at what a state’s effective tax rates are for the low and middle income earners will likely be more applicable to us than what the top 1% incomes are paying.

I think you're missing the point I was making. This "study" isn't about total taxation for an individual, nor effective rates, and not even marginal rates. It's only looking at the delta between what the highest income earners and lowest income earners have as their effective rates.

How is that a useful metric for an individual?

If that difference is 20% in one state, but I end up paying 10% effective tax, and it's 2% in another state, but I have a 20% effective tax, you know what state I'm living in? The less "equitable" one.

And it's essentially saying that's somehow "better." I live in California. It's apparently super "equitable." In fact, it's the most equitable state in their list! But all that means is that everyone is getting screwed by the government with high tax rates. But the reality is I don't care if the rich are paying the same tax rate as I am. Awesome, we're in the same boat of getting screwed. I feel so much better now!

Equity doesn't care that California wastes all that tax income, nor does it care that I'd rather pay a lower rate even if it means the rich are paying a lower effective rate (but higher raw dollar amount).

Nailed it. I came here to say this.

California is wasteful, arbitrary, and interfering - but they always do fabulous on surveys with manipulable results.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!