Maybe mustacians should look away

[faramund]

I've posted a few times about my situation on this forum.

I'm employed in a job I like (but I prefer my non-working days), and my wife loves working and owns her own business. We've reached a compromise that we'll both retire in November 2022. Which is more or less fine.

But it preys on my mind, I'd like to retire, she doesn't, and given our position I could retire, but really, given I don't mind my job, for the sake of relationship peace, I can wait until November 2022.

Anyway, today, I was updating my spreadsheets. In them I do forward projections out to 2040 - basically because our house will be paid off in 2038, and I like to see what will happen after that.

Anyway, I noticed today, that if I retired at the beginning of this year, we'd have $2.7m in investment assets in 2040.
If I retired at the beginning of next year, it would be $3.35m.

So, by working 1 year, my 2040 stash would be $650 000 larger. Given I work 46 weeks a work or so, thats $14000 a week, throwing in some of my pay - I can say that each week I work is worth about $15000, or because I only really work 3 days a week - thats $5000 a day. Its even rare for me to work more than 5 hours in a day, so this is like, $1000 per hour.

It gets even sillier, due to the wonders of compound interest, the difference between 2022 and 2023 is around $2 million in 2040 - which will work out at something like $45000 for each week of work (maybe $3000 an hour).

I only noticed this today, and I'm really feeling much more positive about the remaining years I'll be working for (thinking about it this way, makes it at least harder to complain). Has anyone else ever done this kind of analysis? I know its a bit different from what most people seem to do, i.e. calculate when is the soonest time they can retire.

[marty998]

You really think your life will turn out neatly as it does in spreadsheet assumptions for the next 24 years?

Holy crap... I can predict 3 months relatively easily but after that the numbers are going to be in an ever widening range.

[Yaeger]

I think the best thing about this plan is that you'll have options. An option to retire or an option to keep working if that's what makes you happy. I wouldn't worry too much about what you'll decide then, but you'll be free to do what you love. What more could you ask for?

[aFrugalFather]

Curious as to what relationship peace means?  In my household if I were to retire before my wife I'd have a lot more time to help out with chores and keeping things in order which would make her life a lot more enjoyable.

[sol]

Yes, I've done this math.  The nature of compound interest on a rising salary means that the size of your stash increases at an ever faster rate.  You start out making slow painful progress, then the pace picks up a bit, then you blow right past your goal at light speed.  You can spend 10 years making your first million and then make your second in only three years and your third in just months. 

This is why the one more year problem is so vexing.  Staying just a little bit longer makes a huge difference in the assets you control, far beyond what you will ever need.  Enough to do real good in the world, and all you have to do is suffer through a bit more drudgery for it.  It makes it hard to quit.

[potm]

Each extra year you work will add more to the future stash but eventually your stash is so large that the added income from your job will be negligible.

[faramund]

Curious as to what relationship peace means?  In my household if I were to retire before my wife I'd have a lot more time to help out with chores and keeping things in order which would make her life a lot more enjoyable.

I think its expectations, when she works, and I'm at home, she expects me to do many more things then I expect I should do.. Life is just smoother when either we both work, or are both at home.

[faramund]

I haven't done it, but I agree, if I looked at the percentage increase each year, that would go down year by year.

I think retirement planning is often either
*) as soon as possible
*) non-existant.

There is a third category, when the tradeoff between years worked, and desired lifestyle, but I really don't think its that common.

I'm just in this wierd fourth category. Have a definite date, that's later than what's necessary, but it just makes for surprising numbers.

[soccerluvof4]

My wife said all the same things.... that changed in a hurry when she got a taste of some extended time off and realized how fun it would be not working.

[MasterStache]

My wife is perfectly fine if I FIRE in roughly 5 years and she continues working. She likes her job and knows that I more or less despise my job. She would rather have a happy husband doing what he wants to do than a miserable husband doing what he has to do. Yeah for me! Also she has more flexibility and time off at her job. So we can still travel a bit while she is still working.

[MrMoogle]

Yes, but if you wait until year 3000 to retire, that's 10^(very large number) $/hour.  One hour worked now could be a trillion dollars by then. /sarcasm/

It appears you have enough to retire now.  Is that extra $600k in 24 years really going to improve your life?

You have your reasons to not retire, and that's perfectly acceptable.  But there's a point when more money won't make your life more enjoyable.  I personally wouldn't get a lot of joy being able to look at my account and seeing a huge pile of money that won't buy me anymore security or happiness.

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

Working beyond the FI point of 25x expenses can have impressive results years down the road and give you a huge safety margin.  You just might be a philanthropist someday.  Or a philanderer.  You can do whatever you want with those millions.

Is it worth it?  Depends on your situation. I've decided to keep on keeping on and reevaluate where I'm at about the same time as you (5-6 years).

At the risk of being admonished for the link, I recently ran the numbers for a FI physician who chooses to continue working another 5, 10, or 20 years, and what the portfolio might be with different real returns of 0%, 2%, 4%, and 6%.

http://www.physicianonfire.com/4-physicians-revisited-dr-a-the-impact-of-working-after-fi/

It helps me to do these thought exercises and see actual numbers on the screen, even if the assumptions may turn out to be way off.

[use2betrix]

Curious as to what relationship peace means?  In my household if I were to retire before my wife I'd have a lot more time to help out with chores and keeping things in order which would make her life a lot more enjoyable.

I think its expectations, when she works, and I'm at home, she expects me to do many more things then I expect I should do.. Life is just smoother when either we both work, or are both at home.

Such as?

I work and my wife doesn't. She does everything that I think one is "reasonably expected to" in that situation. All the cooking, laundry, cleaning, errands, shopping, etc. It only makes sense for the person who stays at home to do all of that, so when the other person isn't working you have 100% free time together.

Honestly, I love my wife not working, we're young (20's) and don't even have kids. She busts ass at home and in return 100% of my time not working is us enjoying our time spent together. Why would we spend our Saturday off doing laundry and grocery shopping when that can easily be done while I'm at work?

If you can get over that you may have to contribute more around the house, it can truly be a great situation. I love it way more than the amount of money she'd make right now, and she still has free time for other stuff. I'd venture out of the 11 hrs in gone each day, she's truly busy with standard stuff around 3-4 hrs.

[Scubanewbie]

Such as?

I work and my wife doesn't. She does everything that I think one is "reasonably expected to" in that situation. All the cooking, laundry, cleaning, errands, shopping, etc. It only makes sense for the person who stays at home to do all of that, so when the other person isn't working you have 100% free time together.

Honestly, I love my wife not working, we're young (20's) and don't even have kids. She busts ass at home and in return 100% of my time not working is us enjoying our time spent together. Why would we spend our Saturday off doing laundry and grocery shopping when that can easily be done while I'm at work?

If you can get over that you may have to contribute more around the house, it can truly be a great situation. I love it way more than the amount of money she'd make right now, and she still has free time for other stuff. I'd venture out of the 11 hrs in gone each day, she's truly busy with standard stuff around 3-4 hrs.

I agree with the above and hope to work out this situation, DH works and I don't but take care of all the house management "stuff".  He thinks I'll be bored.  I counter that I'd love to have our weekends truly "free".  Honestly like OP we've come to the compromise of us both working right now and that's OK too.  But I agree that there is true value to having a SAHP (for us) or even a SAH-homemanager (either pre- or post-kids in the house).  But either way OP is right that what works for them is what matters.

And OP, WTG on the calculations.  I agree that doing the math on it is super fun and powerful (yes negative nancy PP, of course the "average" returns could be off - that's also the case for all forward looking plans).  Yay for you for finding a way to see the silver lining on working a few more years.  Any chance a sabbatical or something is possible where you try out being at home and see if your wife and you find enough value in what you ARE willing to do at home that she's fine with it and you get to retire earl(ier).

[zephyr911]

When DW finished grad school and first moved in, she spent about half of my workday making the house look awesome, and the other half doing fitness, fun, and job search stuff. When I got home, we did stuff together every night and there was almost no work to be done, aside from a little dishwashing. We both really miss that.

Ever since I got into the FIRE plan, I've pictured doing the same thing if she decides to keep her FT job. I don't even really think about what's fair or who should do what, I just think pragmatically: if it's all done when the FT spouse gets off work, both have more fun and life is better.

OP, it's interesting to figure out how much your work hours today are earning you, but all this math also makes a really good case for retiring earlier if you think you'll be happier. If you're confident in your ability to plan and execute this, do you really think you can work multiple needless years at your job to accommodate your spouse's lack of faith in you?

Not to be overly negative, but if my wife insisted on my working past the point where I had objectively determined that it was unnecessary, we'd have a Serious Fucking Problem.

[Bertram]

Curious as to what relationship peace means?  In my household if I were to retire before my wife I'd have a lot more time to help out with chores and keeping things in order which would make her life a lot more enjoyable.

I think its expectations, when she works, and I'm at home, she expects me to do many more things then I expect I should do.. Life is just smoother when either we both work, or are both at home.

Such as?

I work and my wife doesn't. She does everything that I think one is "reasonably expected to" in that situation. All the cooking, laundry, cleaning, errands, shopping, etc. It only makes sense for the person who stays at home to do all of that, so when the other person isn't working you have 100% free time together.

Yeah, that's all fine if the person that stays home enjoys these tasks and has the "more rigid standards". But for obvious reasons this topic is the source of a lot of discussions when neither party enjoys them or when each party has different standards. If you're together long enough, eventually a rhythm is arrived at which is like a ceasefire and bound to the current terms of both parties working. But if the context changes, terms have to be re-negotiated offering up the possibility of a new cold- or even hot war. ^^
Have you actually ever switched roles for months at a time? I am asking because things are much, much easier in theory, than they are in reality.

If you get to quit your 50h paid job, but then increase your household chores from 10h a week to 30h a week, but you actually enjoyed your paid work more than you enjoy cleaning and cooking around the house... well, I can see why somebody would choose to keep working "for the greater good" *nudge* *nudge* *wink* wink* Especially if "quality control" on those cleaning/cooking jobs increases, because now you're not doing stuff on top of a full time job where some leniency can be expected, but now you have all day free time, so if your SO prefers that one specific cleaning job done twice a week, where basic logic dictates to you that once a month is more than any human would need, you're gonna hear bout it...

In the end it comes down to whether you divide up house work:
- by the money earned,
- by the time working (job out of the house) or
- simply by broad category of no job, half-time, or full-time job.

Example: As it is I work 55h hours a week, my SO works 35hours, I travel on average 4 days a week (sleep not at home), and I earn multiples of what she earns. Yet we both kind a work a full-time job and split housework 51%:49%. I sometimes do feel like getting the short end of the stick here, but in the end we both work full time, we choose the profession we do because we enjoy it, and she'd be much more happy if I worked a job comparable to hers (in terms of earnings, sleeping at home and free time). I already dread the discussions we're going to have should I FIRE and if she continues to work... There is no objective fairness and "one grand truth" here, fair depends entirely on the system you both agree on, and whether both parties can find common ground. And no, she's not a tough negotiator at all; she just has "funny" (to me) views on certain things and it's a touchy subject. In the end I do more, because I can do more and I can accept that, but it would still kind of suck to be stuck with more things to do that I just don't enjoy or deem necessary at that frequency or with that dedication/effort.

[SeanMC]

You could price the cost of out-sourcing much of the household chores and management that you don't want to do. Then work "extra" only until you have enough money to cover FI + the costs of paying someone to do the things you are "expected" to do that you don't want to after your ER.

If you want a solution for the problem of "My SO and I disagree on what household tasks need to be done and who should do them," I have a hard time believing that the most efficient solution is for you to keep working for money you don't actually need to avoid having to do things you don't want to do that your wife expects you to do ONLY if you aren't working.

This is not about finances or not having enough money. What do you think is going to happen when your compromised retirement date happens? That there won't be expectations of contributing to the household tasks?

[coppertop]

My husband retired at age 56 in September.  I am still working.  I have to say I love that he is home taking care of things, and our weekends are freer than they were before.  He has remodeled a bathroom and is now working on our back hallway.  Next is the kitchen.  He was working on remodel projects before he stopped working, but it was at a snail's pace because of his limited time to do it.  Now he treats taking care of our home and property as his full time job while I still bring home the [tempeh] bacon.

[AZDude]

If you want a solution for the problem of "My SO and I disagree on what household tasks need to be done and who should do them," I have a hard time believing that the most efficient solution is for you to keep working for money you don't actually need to avoid having to do things you don't want to do that your wife expects you to do ONLY if you aren't working.

This is not about finances or not having enough money. What do you think is going to happen when your compromised retirement date happens? That there won't be expectations of contributing to the household tasks?

Yeah, its best to confront this now and figure out a way to hash things out. Independence while still part of a family is a tricky thing, but one that all good relationships get through. There is no way my wife or I would ever keep working just to avoid the argument of who does what around the house. The idea is laughably stupid(no offense intended).

[BTDretire]

I don't get your $650,000 for working one more year.
I started with, you save $25,000 the extra year you work.
Compounded 24 years at 5% gives you $81,000.
Compounded 24 years at 10% gives you $246,000.
 I'll try again,
If you quit work and spend $25,000 of your stash instead of save $25,000,
the difference is $50,000.
Compounded 24 years at 5% gives you $161,000.
Compounded 24 years at 10% gives you $492,000.
  How did you work the numbers?

[faramund]

I don't get your $650,000 for working one more year.
I started with, you save $25,000 the extra year you work.
Compounded 24 years at 5% gives you $81,000.
Compounded 24 years at 10% gives you $246,000.
 I'll try again,
If you quit work and spend $25,000 of your stash instead of save $25,000,
the difference is $50,000.
Compounded 24 years at 5% gives you $161,000.
Compounded 24 years at 10% gives you $492,000.
  How did you work the numbers?

The last one is close. I assume my shares grow at 9.5% a year (my 16 year history is a couple of points higher than that, and it seems to match long term rates), and I currently am 50% geared with a margin loan that I pay 4% interest with. So my return is roughly (9.5+9.5-4)=14% a year.

[faramund]

You could price the cost of out-sourcing much of the household chores and management that you don't want to do. Then work "extra" only until you have enough money to cover FI + the costs of paying someone to do the things you are "expected" to do that you don't want to after your ER.

If you want a solution for the problem of "My SO and I disagree on what household tasks need to be done and who should do them," I have a hard time believing that the most efficient solution is for you to keep working for money you don't actually need to avoid having to do things you don't want to do that your wife expects you to do ONLY if you aren't working.

This is not about finances or not having enough money. What do you think is going to happen when your compromised retirement date happens? That there won't be expectations of contributing to the household tasks?

Interesting points are being made. Maybe I should be clear, at the moment we do share household things, although I'm probably better at doing my share of washing/cooking/kid looking after stuff, and I'm really bad at the non-washing cleaning side of things. I just find doing it all - somewhat boring, so I'm happy with roughly 50/50, but I really don't like 100/0 which is what only me retirement would do.

My job's also, really not that bad. At most, its probably no more than 5 hours a day, 3 days a week - so I'm not in some soul-destroying 50 hour job. So logically, given my choices, I'd prefer doing 15 hours a week then being responsible for all the household side of things. That doesn't sound logically incorrect, I certainly find the 15 hours more intellectually stimulating, then how I would find the other 50% of household tasks.

[faramund]

Yes, but if you wait until year 3000 to retire, that's 10^(very large number) $/hour.  One hour worked now could be a trillion dollars by then. /sarcasm/

It appears you have enough to retire now.  Is that extra $600k in 24 years really going to improve your life?

You have your reasons to not retire, and that's perfectly acceptable.  But there's a point when more money won't make your life more enjoyable.  I personally wouldn't get a lot of joy being able to look at my account and seeing a huge pile of money that won't buy me anymore security or happiness.

Well, that's just silly (:, but really, I'm not working for the money, its just a nice way to think about the work I will be doing. Today, I could grumble that I have to spend half an hour proof reading one of my student's papers, but instead, I'm thinking, I really shouldn't worry, I'm only working 3 days this week, only for half an hour today, so that's 5000/2, an hourly rate of $10000, no worries!

[2lazy2retire]

Working beyond the FI point of 25x expenses can have impressive results years down the road and give you a huge safety margin.  You just might be a philanthropist someday.  Or a philanderer.  You can do whatever you want with those millions.

Is it worth it?  Depends on your situation. I've decided to keep on keeping on and reevaluate where I'm at about the same time as you (5-6 years).

At the risk of being admonished for the link, I recently ran the numbers for a FI physician who chooses to continue working another 5, 10, or 20 years, and what the portfolio might be with different real returns of 0%, 2%, 4%, and 6%.

http://www.physicianonfire.com/4-physicians-revisited-dr-a-the-impact-of-working-after-fi/

It helps me to do these thought exercises and see actual numbers on the screen, even if the assumptions may turn out to be way off.

50k in federal taxes is low on 300k income,  where did you get that number ? , somewhere around 60k would be my estimate

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

I plugged numbers into Intuit's Taxcaster.  https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/

Lots of deductions help Dr. Anderson in this scenario:  2 kids, large mortgage, $36,000 in tax deferred retirement accounts, 457(b) and 401(k), HSA and charitable giving deductions.  I was surprised how low it was myself.  State tax was additional $10,000, and FICA was listed separately as a $7000 line item.  The original "Tale of 4 physicians" Post has Dr. A's $80,000 budget.

[AZDude]

It should never be 100/0, even if you retire. Maybe 80/20 at that point, but one person should never be expected to do 100%. When I worked from home, I would do most of the household stuff during the day(on company time), but even then I would still expect DW to help out some(which was never a problem).

[MayDay]

It should never be 100/0, even if you retire. Maybe 80/20 at that point, but one person should never be expected to do 100%. When I worked from home, I would do most of the household stuff during the day(on company time), but even then I would still expect DW to help out some(which was never a problem).

I don't think you can make blanket statements- its up to the people involved.  I know a couple SAH spouses who truly do 100% of the housework- and they are fine with it, because they still have tons of leisure time while the working spouse it at work.  One in particular, they do not clean up at all after dinner other than clearing and wiping the table- all the dishes sit in the sink and the SAH spouse does them the next day.  Of course, that type of set-up is really only likely to work without young kids (or any kids) in the house. 

I can definitely identify with not wanting the drudgery of all the household work.  It isn't exactly fun or stimulating.  If I didn't watch telly shows on the ipad while doing it I would be very crabby about it.  I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good! 

[Chris22]

My wife said all the same things.... that changed in a hurry when she got a taste of some extended time off and realized how fun it would be not working.

OTOH, my wife was looking forward to and planning on being a stay at home mom.  Then she spent 3 months climbing the walls on maternity leave and decided, F that.  Granted, home alone is different than home with a kid, but still.  She found out she LIKES working.

[faramund]

I can definitely identify with not wanting the drudgery of all the household work.  It isn't exactly fun or stimulating.  If I didn't watch telly shows on the ipad while doing it I would be very crabby about it.  I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good!

I had to go, ho ho ho, to this, we have three kids, a teenage boy who eats anything, and twin teenage girls, who it appears it is impossible to cook something which both of them like, and if ever something novel is presented to them to eat, there is a strong chance that both of them will object. So I definitely understand your point.

The worst thing, is I always have a niggling feeling, that when they are in there 20s and their tastes broaden, that they will complain to their friends about how they only ever ate boring food when they were growing up.

[2lazy2retire]

I plugged numbers into Intuit's Taxcaster.  https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/

Lots of deductions help Dr. Anderson in this scenario:  2 kids, large mortgage, $36,000 in tax deferred retirement accounts, 457(b) and 401(k), HSA and charitable giving deductions.  I was surprised how low it was myself.  State tax was additional $10,000, and FICA was listed separately as a $7000 line item.  The original "Tale of 4 physicians" Post has Dr. A's $80,000 budget.

Even if we assume that all of the 24k mortgage payment is interest ( unlikely that Dr Anderson has an interest only mortgage ) I cannot get the federal below 56K?, I'm curious as if your numbers are right I'm overpaying my Federal tax to the tune of 15k -which I doubt. Where are you adding the HSA information and the 457 stuff in tax caster maybe those numbers are what I'm missing?

[Chris22]

I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good!

Which brings up a good point.  There's a big difference between "doing chores" and "making work" or tuning it into a hobby.  I tell my wife, we have to eat, we don't have to eat elaborate.  You can only gripe about the "baseload" work it takes to make dinner, not what you allowed it to spiral into.  If it takes 20 minutes to whip up some tacos or hot dogs or chicken or something, and you spend an extra 2 hours making it fancy, that 2 hours is your "fault" or doing, not mine.  I might appreciate the extra effort, but you decided to do it all on your own.  Same with something like "cleaning the bathroom."  It might take 15 minutes to wipe down the counters, crapper, and shower.  If you decide to spend an extra hour re-organizing the linen closet, well, congrats, but no one asked you to, and it didn't really NEED to get done. 

I'm happy for my wife to spend some time trying out a new recipe or something; I do it almost every Sunday.  But if she's going to complain about doing it, just stop, because I'm just as happy eating something quick and easy, anything else is self-imposed. 

[BarkyardBQ]

I plugged numbers into Intuit's Taxcaster.  https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/

Lots of deductions help Dr. Anderson in this scenario:  2 kids, large mortgage, $36,000 in tax deferred retirement accounts, 457(b) and 401(k), HSA and charitable giving deductions.  I was surprised how low it was myself.  State tax was additional $10,000, and FICA was listed separately as a $7000 line item.  The original "Tale of 4 physicians" Post has Dr. A's $80,000 budget.

Even if we assume that all of the 24k mortgage payment is interest ( unlikely that Dr Anderson has an interest only mortgage ) I cannot get the federal below 56K?, I'm curious as if your numbers are right I'm overpaying my Federal tax to the tune of 15k -which I doubt. Where are you adding the HSA information and the 457 stuff in tax caster maybe those numbers are what I'm missing?

You can't add those in tax caster, you deduct them from earnings for the Taxable Wages field.

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

I plugged numbers into Intuit's Taxcaster.  https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/

Lots of deductions help Dr. Anderson in this scenario:  2 kids, large mortgage, $36,000 in tax deferred retirement accounts, 457(b) and 401(k), HSA and charitable giving deductions.  I was surprised how low it was myself.  State tax was additional $10,000, and FICA was listed separately as a $7000 line item.  The original "Tale of 4 physicians" Post has Dr. A's $80,000 budget.

Even if we assume that all of the 24k mortgage payment is interest ( unlikely that Dr Anderson has an interest only mortgage ) I cannot get the federal below 56K?, I'm curious as if your numbers are right I'm overpaying my Federal tax to the tune of 15k -which I doubt. Where are you adding the HSA information and the 457 stuff in tax caster maybe those numbers are what I'm missing?

BackyarBQ is right.

The taxable income as seen on the W-2 and entered into taxcaster would be $259,000, accounting for pre-tax deductions for the 457(b), 401(k), and HSA.  I actually rounded up to $50,000 from what taxcaster gave me.

[faramund]

I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good!

Which brings up a good point.  There's a big difference between "doing chores" and "making work" or tuning it into a hobby.  I tell my wife, we have to eat, we don't have to eat elaborate.  You can only gripe about the "baseload" work it takes to make dinner, not what you allowed it to spiral into.  If it takes 20 minutes to whip up some tacos or hot dogs or chicken or something, and you spend an extra 2 hours making it fancy, that 2 hours is your "fault" or doing, not mine.  I might appreciate the extra effort, but you decided to do it all on your own.  Same with something like "cleaning the bathroom."  It might take 15 minutes to wipe down the counters, crapper, and shower.  If you decide to spend an extra hour re-organizing the linen closet, well, congrats, but no one asked you to, and it didn't really NEED to get done. 

I'm happy for my wife to spend some time trying out a new recipe or something; I do it almost every Sunday.  But if she's going to complain about doing it, just stop, because I'm just as happy eating something quick and easy, anything else is self-imposed.

I don't think the complaint was about the time taken. It seemed MayDay's (understandable) issue was the negative feedback that was received. But, in general, if excess time was a friction point, I'd agree with your argument.

[BFGirl]

I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good!

Which brings up a good point.  There's a big difference between "doing chores" and "making work" or tuning it into a hobby.  I tell my wife, we have to eat, we don't have to eat elaborate.  You can only gripe about the "baseload" work it takes to make dinner, not what you allowed it to spiral into.  If it takes 20 minutes to whip up some tacos or hot dogs or chicken or something, and you spend an extra 2 hours making it fancy, that 2 hours is your "fault" or doing, not mine.  I might appreciate the extra effort, but you decided to do it all on your own.  Same with something like "cleaning the bathroom."  It might take 15 minutes to wipe down the counters, crapper, and shower.  If you decide to spend an extra hour re-organizing the linen closet, well, congrats, but no one asked you to, and it didn't really NEED to get done. 

I'm happy for my wife to spend some time trying out a new recipe or something; I do it almost every Sunday.  But if she's going to complain about doing it, just stop, because I'm just as happy eating something quick and easy, anything else is self-imposed.

This really rubbed me the wrong way, but I am going to keep my snarky comment to myself since I am sleep deprived today.

[Chris22]

I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good!

Which brings up a good point.  There's a big difference between "doing chores" and "making work" or tuning it into a hobby.  I tell my wife, we have to eat, we don't have to eat elaborate.  You can only gripe about the "baseload" work it takes to make dinner, not what you allowed it to spiral into.  If it takes 20 minutes to whip up some tacos or hot dogs or chicken or something, and you spend an extra 2 hours making it fancy, that 2 hours is your "fault" or doing, not mine.  I might appreciate the extra effort, but you decided to do it all on your own.  Same with something like "cleaning the bathroom."  It might take 15 minutes to wipe down the counters, crapper, and shower.  If you decide to spend an extra hour re-organizing the linen closet, well, congrats, but no one asked you to, and it didn't really NEED to get done. 

I'm happy for my wife to spend some time trying out a new recipe or something; I do it almost every Sunday.  But if she's going to complain about doing it, just stop, because I'm just as happy eating something quick and easy, anything else is self-imposed.

This really rubbed me the wrong way, but I am going to keep my snarky comment to myself since I am sleep deprived today.

Perhaps I worded it more strongly than necessary, but the point is, if you invest a lot more time than is necessary on something because you want to, why complain about it?

I am a big car guy.  If the average person takes 30 minutes to wash their car, and I go out and wash, wax, detail, etc, the thing for 6 hours, would anyone really want to hear me whine about how long it takes me to wash my car?  Of course not.  Same thing with everything else.  If you go way above and beyond on your own volition, great, but do it because you want to.  And if you do it because you want to, why complain about it?

[rockstache]

Chris22, I agree with you except I think the line is a little fuzzy and not always so black and white. A lot of people do the extra things they do to please their loved ones and bring them a little extra happiness. Sure, I don't think my husband cares if I spent 2 hours organizing the linen closet, but he sure does like when he can find exactly what he is looking for in 30 seconds instead of 15 minutes of rifling through it. I won't gripe about the work I 'choose' to take on, if you (my husband) will generally choose to have an attitude of appreciation. Even for the things you think you don't particularly care about. 

[RosieTR]

I can definitely identify with not wanting the drudgery of all the household work.  It isn't exactly fun or stimulating.  If I didn't watch telly shows on the ipad while doing it I would be very crabby about it.  I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good!

I had to go, ho ho ho, to this, we have three kids, a teenage boy who eats anything, and twin teenage girls, who it appears it is impossible to cook something which both of them like, and if ever something novel is presented to them to eat, there is a strong chance that both of them will object. So I definitely understand your point.

The worst thing, is I always have a niggling feeling, that when they are in there 20s and their tastes broaden, that they will complain to their friends about how they only ever ate boring food when they were growing up.

Wow. I'm always amazed by parents of teenagers complaining about doing chores. Isn't that what the kids are supposed to be doing? If they aren't yet old enough to trust to do the actual cooking (although they can help even at a much younger age), they can certainly do things like dishes, sweeping, mopping, etc.

Wondering why the chore divvy isn't more like 50% (or less) parents, 50% kids...with the parents doing the higher-functioning things like grocery shopping or oil changes and the kids doing the lower stuff like dishes, some yard work, and their own laundry.

[faramund]

I can definitely identify with not wanting the drudgery of all the household work.  It isn't exactly fun or stimulating.  If I didn't watch telly shows on the ipad while doing it I would be very crabby about it.  I just had a fit last night about spending a couple hours cooking dinner and cleaning up, and the reaction to the meal was 2 votes of "This is awful, we hate it, whine whine whine" and one vote (from H) of "Its, um, ok.  Please don't make it again".  When a third of your "work day" is met with that response, a paid job sounds pretty darn good!

I had to go, ho ho ho, to this, we have three kids, a teenage boy who eats anything, and twin teenage girls, who it appears it is impossible to cook something which both of them like, and if ever something novel is presented to them to eat, there is a strong chance that both of them will object. So I definitely understand your point.

The worst thing, is I always have a niggling feeling, that when they are in there 20s and their tastes broaden, that they will complain to their friends about how they only ever ate boring food when they were growing up.

Wow. I'm always amazed by parents of teenagers complaining about doing chores. Isn't that what the kids are supposed to be doing? If they aren't yet old enough to trust to do the actual cooking (although they can help even at a much younger age), they can certainly do things like dishes, sweeping, mopping, etc.

Wondering why the chore divvy isn't more like 50% (or less) parents, 50% kids...with the parents doing the higher-functioning things like grocery shopping or oil changes and the kids doing the lower stuff like dishes, some yard work, and their own laundry.

I'm not complaining about kids doing chores, my kids do do chores, but cooking's not one of them, once again, I'm just commenting about their reactions to my cooking. You might wonder what happens if one of my kids won't eat what I cook them - they either go hungry, or get something else for themselves.

[use2betrix]

Now he treats taking care of our home and property as his full time job while I still bring home the [tempeh] bacon.

I always tell my wife. I bring home the bacon and she cooks it! :)

[Mr. Green]

Hat's off to you OP! I could never run a spreadsheet out that far because it would rob all the joy from my life, financially. I think the farthest I ever went was 8 years to project having kids and other big life changes but I didn't want to know, even with only moderate certainty due to how far out the project is, what I was going to make all the way until retirement or something like that. For me it was tantamount to knowing how the broad strokes of my life would play out.

[Bertram]

Which brings up a good point.  There's a big difference between "doing chores" and "making work" or tuning it into a hobby.  I tell my wife, we have to eat, we don't have to eat elaborate.  You can only gripe about the "baseload" work it takes to make dinner, not what you allowed it to spiral into.  If it takes 20 minutes to whip up some tacos or hot dogs or chicken or something, and you spend an extra 2 hours making it fancy, that 2 hours is your "fault" or doing, not mine.  I might appreciate the extra effort, but you decided to do it all on your own.  Same with something like "cleaning the bathroom."  It might take 15 minutes to wipe down the counters, crapper, and shower.  If you decide to spend an extra hour re-organizing the linen closet, well, congrats, but no one asked you to, and it didn't really NEED to get done.

Hahaha! If you think there is an objective, standard amount that is "necessary" and the rest is optional, it only really says that you have lower standards than your SO. Neither one is "right", it's about finding common ground that both parties can live with. Same for the frequency with which certain things are done. Considering 15min. to clean the bath to be OK, would - for some people - be the equivalent of taking a wet towel and rubbing a dirty car with it and consider that as "cleaning the car". :)

[faramund]

Well, I've been thinking more about this. Particularly the issue of why I don't want to retire first myself, and a big bit of that is having to go from 50% housework to 100%.

So what does that entail. I think, each week:
2 more dinners, say 0.5 hrs each (I already do most of these) = 1 hr
3.5 days of washing at 0.5 hrs each                                       = 1.75
shopping (at the moment I do a weekly aldi shop, and my DW
does a mainstream supermarket shop, so if I do it)                 = 1
cleaning (considering I do nothing at the moment, and we have
a 2 storey, 5 bedroom house)                                                = 3 hrs (this could be a big underestimate)

So I could trade my rewarding/intellectually stimulating/often enjoyable job of 15 hours a week that effectively gives me $15000, to do around 7 more hours of really the opposite of all those adjectives.

Just on the type of work tradeoff, I think I'd go for the work, throw in the money, and its really just a very good bonus.

I know this analysis of mine can seem odd. But this 'I could retire by myself if I wanted to', has really been getting to me, and thinking about it this way, really has made me very happy. This question of 'why am I working', has been a festering wound over the last 12 months, and now it seems like I have a very good, satisfying answer for myself.
 

[sol]

Hat's off to you OP! I could never run a spreadsheet out that far because it would rob all the joy from my life, financially.

Really?  I don't understand that mentality at all.

My retirement spreadsheet calculates monthly income and account balances between now and the month I hypothetically turn 100 years old.  The balances all rise until the month I retire, then they draw down as I spend my money, then they being to climb again as I start to collect my pension and social security.  Market returns will complicate my pretty graphs, of course, but I absolutely WANT to know the "broad strokes of my life" because that's the whole point of planning. 

Isn't it better to have more information rather than less?  What if the future projections show some impending doom in your future that you could avoid if you started preparing for it now, but which might ruin you in the future because you didn't see it coming?  Wouldn't you just kick yourself for not bothering to look into it?

[zephyr911]

Well, I've been thinking more about this.
****snip****
So I could trade my rewarding/intellectually stimulating/often enjoyable job of 15 hours a week that effectively gives me $15000, to do around 7 more hours of really the opposite of all those adjectives.

Oh, well this is a totally different story then. If you want to keep the job, keep the job.

I know this analysis of mine can seem odd.

Not really. If it's worth it to you, it's worth it to you. This forum has a huge range of people doing a lot of different things under the general collective headings of "MMM" and "FIRE". Do what makes you happy, using your preferred selection of tools available here. It would only be a problem if there was some grave conflict between your stated desires and your actions, or if you claimed you couldn't retire because it was too {confusing/hard/expensive} etc. It would be a problem to me if you said you were only keeping the job for a few more years because she wasn't convinced by math. This sounds cool though.

But this 'I could retire by myself if I wanted to', has really been getting to me, and thinking about it this way, really has made me very happy. This question of 'why am I working', has been a festering wound over the last 12 months, and now it seems like I have a very good, satisfying answer for myself.

It's made me pretty happy too, and now the hardest thing is figuring out when I'm actually gonna pull the plug. I'm far from FI but mere months from being able to pay all my bills with just the side jobs I already have (and like better than my FT). But now that I know I could bail later this year, or any time thereafter, my sense of urgency about doing so is gone. I'm just waiting for someone to piss me off enough that the choice becomes clear again. xD

[Mr. Green]

Hat's off to you OP! I could never run a spreadsheet out that far because it would rob all the joy from my life, financially.

Really?  I don't understand that mentality at all.

My retirement spreadsheet calculates monthly income and account balances between now and the month I hypothetically turn 100 years old.  The balances all rise until the month I retire, then they draw down as I spend my money, then they being to climb again as I start to collect my pension and social security.  Market returns will complicate my pretty graphs, of course, but I absolutely WANT to know the "broad strokes of my life" because that's the whole point of planning. 

Isn't it better to have more information rather than less?  What if the future projections show some impending doom in your future that you could avoid if you started preparing for it now, but which might ruin you in the future because you didn't see it coming?  Wouldn't you just kick yourself for not bothering to look into it?

There's such a thing as too much information, for me at least. If there's an impending doom waiting for me, I've either reasonably covered it with the data I've gathered already that's allowing me to FIRE, or it's so remote that it's not worth wasting my energy on. Knowing how much money I'd make for my entire life, which would tempt me to extrapolate exactly what house I could buy, what cars I could own, what vacation I could or could not take, is of no interest to me. I consider that the equivalent of accidentally glimpsing the life I haven't lived yet. Uncertainty, in the right context, is what makes life worth living.

[tj]

cleaning (considering I do nothing at the moment, and we have
a 2 storey, 5 bedroom house)                                                = 3 hrs (this could be a big underestimate)

Have you considered downsizing? Cleaning a 1 bedroom condo/apartment is drastically different than 5 bedroom house. Everyone I know who has a 5 bedroom house, has a housecleaner, that's way too much effort for one person. :D

I am going to say that working because you don't want to do chores at home sounds like a horrible reason to not retire, but it would be hard to have your spouse keep working if you are wanting to enjoy retirement together. You'd be forced to have a whole bunch of your own separate hobbies, and that might even be scarier for many than the extra cleaning activities.

[faramund]

cleaning (considering I do nothing at the moment, and we have
a 2 storey, 5 bedroom house)                                                = 3 hrs (this could be a big underestimate)

Have you considered downsizing? Cleaning a 1 bedroom condo/apartment is drastically different than 5 bedroom house. Everyone I know who has a 5 bedroom house, has a housecleaner, that's way too much effort for one person. :D

I am going to say that working because you don't want to do chores at home sounds like a horrible reason to not retire, but it would be hard to have your spouse keep working if you are wanting to enjoy retirement together. You'd be forced to have a whole bunch of your own separate hobbies, and that might even be scarier for many than the extra cleaning activities.

Well, we have 3 kids so one bedroom for each of them, 1 for us, and 1 for when we have visitors - so downsizing wouldn't really work.

[aspiringnomad]

cleaning (considering I do nothing at the moment, and we have
a 2 storey, 5 bedroom house)                                                = 3 hrs (this could be a big underestimate)

Have you considered downsizing? Cleaning a 1 bedroom condo/apartment is drastically different than 5 bedroom house. Everyone I know who has a 5 bedroom house, has a housecleaner, that's way too much effort for one person. :D

I am going to say that working because you don't want to do chores at home sounds like a horrible reason to not retire, but it would be hard to have your spouse keep working if you are wanting to enjoy retirement together. You'd be forced to have a whole bunch of your own separate hobbies, and that might even be scarier for many than the extra cleaning activities.

Well, we have 3 kids so one bedroom for each of them, 1 for us, and 1 for when we have visitors - so downsizing wouldn't really work.

But does each kid really need their own bedroom? And can they not at least share a bedroom when visitors stay? Speaking as someone who has benefited tremendously (both financially and socially) from embracing group houses, airbnb's, couchsurfing, and hostels, it may be helpful to their long term well-being if they learn to share their space.

[faramund]

cleaning (considering I do nothing at the moment, and we have
a 2 storey, 5 bedroom house)                                                = 3 hrs (this could be a big underestimate)

Have you considered downsizing? Cleaning a 1 bedroom condo/apartment is drastically different than 5 bedroom house. Everyone I know who has a 5 bedroom house, has a housecleaner, that's way too much effort for one person. :D

I am going to say that working because you don't want to do chores at home sounds like a horrible reason to not retire, but it would be hard to have your spouse keep working if you are wanting to enjoy retirement together. You'd be forced to have a whole bunch of your own separate hobbies, and that might even be scarier for many than the extra cleaning activities.

Well, we have 3 kids so one bedroom for each of them, 1 for us, and 1 for when we have visitors - so downsizing wouldn't really work.

But does each kid really need their own bedroom? And can they not at least share a bedroom when visitors stay? Speaking as someone who has benefited tremendously (both financially and socially) from embracing group houses, airbnb's, couchsurfing, and hostels, it may be helpful to their long term well-being if they learn to share their space.

I really think the twin teenage girls would clash - they used to share when they were younger, but now they're becoming more independent/less tolerant and get on each others nerves a lot more.

It'd also go against my wife's and mine agreement, which is to retire without reducing our lifestyle.