Married couple with no kids among several couples with kids.....

[Jack0Life]

So we are really the only couple among several couples that all hang out together without kids.
When we all got together, there were  maybe 1 or 2 kids among all the couples but 4 yrs later, kids are popping to no end.
We are up to 5 now with 1 on the way and another couple is doing IVF to have another baby.
We thought about having kids many times over but my wife has endometriosis so the only way is IVF and we actually started it but never went through with it.
I've been working all my life and I see the end for me but if we end up having kids, its another 10+ years of working for me. I've always told my wife if she want kids, she can be the working spouse and I'll stay home. The problem now is she doesn't like her job and I'm officially lay-off now which brings me to the point of this thread.
When I was making $120k, finance was rosy but now its just my wife working so we needed to cut back just a bit. Yeah, we are still pretty well off but the frugalness is kicking in.
I'll list 3 things that's been going through my mind in order of least importance to most.
- Before when we used to go on vacations, eating out, its always been splitting by couples. Kids were 2, 3 yrs old so not really a big deal. now that they are getting closer to 5, it's still not a big deal but you can see once they all gets older it will adds up.
- This one bothers me quite a bit because even though everyone in the group knows about my wife's endometriosis, they still ask constantly about us having babies. Every couple with no kids probably have the same issue. the continue bombardment with when are you having kids.
- This is the one that's been really bothering me as the holiday season is creeping up. First, in our group, the tradition for kid's birthdays are money. We always give each kid $100 for birthdays and we have 2 God kids so $200 for each. This has been the tradition since they were born so it's not going to stop now. We were out shopping Costco they other day and my wife kept grabbing gifts(kids) for Christmas and they add up. We looked at each others and start joking if we should tell our friends to stop popping out kids.

When I was making $120k, this was all no big deal but these are really starting to add up. I'm just speaking what's in my head at the moment as we will suck it up and do what we always do. I mean we can afford it but I'm reverting to my frugalness way ever since lay-off. I keep joking to my wife that we are losing out by not having any kids.
Anyway, just a small rant but we can't be unique in this situation ??

[Captain FIRE]

First, I'm sorry to hear of your fertility issues.  If finances are really holding you back, run the numbers as I can't see it being another 10 years of working if you have kids.  But often I think people say finances when really it's a little finances and mostly something else. 

Re Christmas & birthdays: Just because you guys started off giving large gifts, doesn't mean you have to continue.  You have some choices such as:
1) Simply start giving smaller amounts
2) Simply start giving gifts rather than money so it's a bit less obvious (you can also transition with some handmade gifts to make it less obvious)
3) Transition to giving family gifts rather than kid gifts (e.g. a set of play golf club clubs, a board game that all the kids will be able to use together)
4) Upfront say with a laugh that their fertility has busted your budget (not these exact words of course, but phrase it that it's taken with an understanding smile) and you are going to need to cut back

Honestly, very few of of our friends give our kids gifts.  The one that does gives either old items they are done with (e.g a play shopping cart) or small $10 items.  It's a token.  Particularly when they are small the kids won't register it.

Re the friends asking: Next time one does, quietly say that it hurts you that they keep asking, when they know your wife has endometriosis.  Or for a quieter approach, pull someone aside to tell them that and ask them to spread the word to the others and ask them to stop asking.  This is easy, because I bet they are just being thoughtless rather than intentionally hurtful.

Meals is a little tougher if your friends haven't already brought it up.  If they have, great, you just accept their offer to pay more.  Easy peasy.  We've had friends off (pre-kids for us) and we've done things like they take care of the tip to even it up rather than try to exactly figure out bills.  (This approach is something we've also done with a non-drinker friend, to even it up so we paid our fair share when ordering drinks.)  This makes it easy on servers too.  Our friends generally started offering more once the kids got to 5+ so this may resolve itself as people start being aware they are more costly.  If they don't, you can just say "looks like our portion is X, does that sound right to you?"  Or ask for split checks.  Note that we never bothered to do this with family though, as we figured that my sister hosted us more often than we hosted her, so we weren't going to nitpick the occasional restaurant meal out. 

[Blue Skies]

First question - this is bothering you, but is it bothering your wife? 

Regarding the baby questions - it sounds like you know all about the other couples plans/issues and they likely knew you had entertained the IVF route at some point.  What do they know now?  Are you and your wife on the same page regarding no kids?  If so, just tell the friends you have decided no, and please stop asking.  If they persist tell them it is really hurtful that they don't respect your decision and to let it go.

Regarding gifts - my kids get gifts from family and their godparents.  That is it.  When they were tiny, sometimes they got a gift from other people, but that didn't last long and it wasn't much.  I personally don't gift non-family children except if my kid is attending their kid's birthday party. 
Are you all exchanging these gifts in an adult friend group party?  I could see giving a small gift to the kids (or I guess whatever size gift is appropriate in your friend circle) if you are attending a celebration, but otherwise it just seems odd to me.
Depending on how the gifts are exchanged, this may end up being a lot like the family gift discussions though.  Someone wants their parents/siblings/in-laws to stop exchanging gifts, or stop wasting money on things the kids don't want, or only gift certain things that fit with the family's desires.  It almost never turns out well.  Read some threads about it, there are tons.  People gift what/how they want to and it is HARD to change it.  You can either do what you want and ignore other people's feelings about it, or you can participate in whatever the group has decided to do.  You need to make sure you are on the same page as your wife though.  If your wife enjoys gifting her friend's kids, you aren't going to get very far.

[Linea_Norway]

I know there are hard to find, but you may want to find new friends who plan to stay childless, or whose kids already have moved out. In my case, even new friends without kids, suddenly get kids anyway, so it is not easy. But for families with kids, their focus will always be around their kids, which might not be your focus.

And for the gifting, your godchildren would be good candidates for a normally priced gift. I find 100$ way too much to gift a child.

[cool7hand]

If they are really friends, you should be able to talk about this and work it out.

[norajean]

You are not ready for children if you think of them strictly in financial terms.

[Hula Hoop]

Wow I don't think anyone apart from us has ever given our children $100 or a gift worth that much - let along $200!  If our friends give our kids gifts (which they only do if they come to the birthday party or happen to be visiting around the kid's birthday once every few years maybe) it would be a 10-20 like a book or two or a coloring book plus pens. 

I think it's time for you to have a chat with your wife about the gift giving.  I'm sure that your friends are incredibly grateful for your past lavish gifts but would understand completely that your circumstances have changed.

About the asking when you're going to have kids thing.  I never do that as I have many friends who have had fertility struggles and I consider that information highly personal.  But I'm sure others don't realize these issues so I agree with the others that a quiet word would be best.

[Metalcat]

I'm a little confused what exactly your issues are.

Are you contemplating kids but realizing how expensive they are?

Or are you complaining about how expensive your friends kids are?

Kids are expensive, but don't have to be as expensive as people let them be. If you truly want kids, then have kids. However, it doesn't really sound like you truly want kids, or at least not 100%. To me, if you aren't 100%, then it's a no.

Tons of people have kids under insanely hard circumstances: virtually broke people, people with genetic illnesses that they pass on to their kids, people with other illnesses that make it horrifically dangerous or challenging to have/raise kids, kids with serious special needs, parents with serious special needs, people where both parents have 100hr/wk careers, etc, etc.

There's never a perfect time to have kids and there's never an ideal circumstance to have kids. That's why the people who are 100% about having kids just go ahead and do it anyway.

It's okay if that's not you, but that's really between you and your spouse and has absolutely nothing to do with what your friends choose to do or how they spend on their kids.

As for what your friends' kids are costing you, if your job circumstance has changed and you can't afford it, just tell your friends that. When I went back to school and took on debt, I told all of my friends and family that I wouldn't be spending on birthday and Christmas gifts. No one blinked an eye.

These are really two completely separate issues.

[billy]

Hey there, DINK here......ya I feel your struggle, seriously though if they are true friends I would enjoy their friendship, cut the gifts and go dutch with Venmo for everything. With the constant kids harassment questions time to get a little cheeky, my go to reply is, "I have two beautiful dogs" or if they come back for more, "Dogs are pretty much the same right?"

[meandmyfamily]

Sorry about the infertility.  I have endometriosis and it is rough.  There are a lot of issues here but I would definitely talk to them about the gifts.  We have 4 kids and no one except grandparents spends anything near $100!  We often give money that matches their age so $5 when they are 5 etc.  or we draw names for Christmas.  Even my 17 year old appreciates $17 from family and close friends.  Surely your friends will understand especially if framed with needing to cut back due to job changes but make it a permanent gift cut back. 

[DeniseNJ]

When my kids were little I told their uncle to please buy them a very small gift, like a matchbox car for a dollar.  He felt too cheap to do that and wanted to hand them an envelope, but really my kids had no appreciation for cash and would have LOVED a tiny toy like a little car.  My four year old son would have played with that all night!

Tell your friends that as you've been laid off, you have to cut back on gifts this year, and just get the kids a small inexpensive gift but something they really like.

[Imma]

$100 for kids is insane. We secretly still love Lego and my friends' kids love it too, I think we spend €25-30 on a set normally. And that's more than most other visitors spend! We don't go to a ton of birthday parties, most are kids-only, and we just want to buy the cool Lego that we like a lot more instead of the meh-set. Or of course another gift in that price range if the kid doesn't like Lego, which hasn't happened yet. And if we couldn't afford it, we certainly wouldn't be spending money on expensive gifts.

[ericrugiero]

….for a quieter approach, pull someone aside to tell them that and ask them to spread the word to the others and ask them to stop asking.  This is easy, because I bet they are just being thoughtless rather than intentionally hurtful.

I like this idea.  Your friends aren't being intentionally cruel, their lives just revolve around kids now so that's what they talk about. 

Kids are great and very rewarding.  But, they take a ton of time, energy and money.  Most parents would say it's worth it but there really isn't a right answer.  You and your wife need to decide if you want to have kids via IVF or even adoption.  If you decide not to, just tell your friends and they should respect that. 

[rockstache]

For stepsibling kid gifts, I have a method where I purchase X amount of identical chocolate santas/candy thingy etc. They get a gift to open, I get to control the price as well as not have to spend my time picking out a special thing for each kid, and there is no fighting over the best thing. I think you're crazy to be doing gifts for friends kids, but if you must, I recommend this method.

However, I think MalCat is correct that you have separate issues here.
-You wanting/not wanting/not being able to have a kid
-Your friends asking inappropriate questions
-You not wanting to spend money on kids gifts (and possibly your wife is not in agreement here?)
-You thinking that there is some sort of fairness scale related to gift giving. (If you're keeping score, stop giving. Only very greedy people want gifts given in that spirit).
-Bills being split based on spending instead of an equal split by couple

Many of these are solved by talking to your friends. The others are just decisions you and your wife need to make.

[talltexan]

Be kind to your friends with kids right now. This national systemic failure of childcare and public education is something no one could have reasonably planned. When it's all over, I would suggest one-by-one trying to negotiate boundaries, but right now show some empathy. Working parents are not okay right now.

[honeybbq]

Working parents are not okay right now.

+1

Regarding this:
- Before when we used to go on vacations, eating out, its always been splitting by couples. Kids were 2, 3 yrs old so not really a big deal. now that they are getting closer to 5, it's still not a big deal but you can see once they all gets older it will adds up.

Not sure I understand. Just get a separate check?

Regarding gifts- definitely start cutting back. If someone gave my child $100 (other than a direct family member) I would be aghast! You have definitely been generous when you could but there's nothing wrong with saying "not right now."

[mizzourah2006]

So we are really the only couple among several couples that all hang out together without kids.
When we all got together, there were  maybe 1 or 2 kids among all the couples but 4 yrs later, kids are popping to no end.
We are up to 5 now with 1 on the way and another couple is doing IVF to have another baby.
We thought about having kids many times over but my wife has endometriosis so the only way is IVF and we actually started it but never went through with it.
I've been working all my life and I see the end for me but if we end up having kids, its another 10+ years of working for me. I've always told my wife if she want kids, she can be the working spouse and I'll stay home. The problem now is she doesn't like her job and I'm officially lay-off now which brings me to the point of this thread.
When I was making $120k, finance was rosy but now its just my wife working so we needed to cut back just a bit. Yeah, we are still pretty well off but the frugalness is kicking in.
I'll list 3 things that's been going through my mind in order of least importance to most.
- Before when we used to go on vacations, eating out, its always been splitting by couples. Kids were 2, 3 yrs old so not really a big deal. now that they are getting closer to 5, it's still not a big deal but you can see once they all gets older it will adds up.
- This one bothers me quite a bit because even though everyone in the group knows about my wife's endometriosis, they still ask constantly about us having babies. Every couple with no kids probably have the same issue. the continue bombardment with when are you having kids.
- This is the one that's been really bothering me as the holiday season is creeping up. First, in our group, the tradition for kid's birthdays are money. We always give each kid $100 for birthdays and we have 2 God kids so $200 for each. This has been the tradition since they were born so it's not going to stop now. We were out shopping Costco they other day and my wife kept grabbing gifts(kids) for Christmas and they add up. We looked at each others and start joking if we should tell our friends to stop popping out kids.

When I was making $120k, this was all no big deal but these are really starting to add up. I'm just speaking what's in my head at the moment as we will suck it up and do what we always do. I mean we can afford it but I'm reverting to my frugalness way ever since lay-off. I keep joking to my wife that we are losing out by not having any kids.
Anyway, just a small rant but we can't be unique in this situation ??

If kids are something that you decide on one thing I'd recommend trying before IVF is getting intralipid infusions. My wife and I had tried to naturally have kids for about 6 years and nothing was working. We tried IUI at least 3x and we were seeing an IVF specialist. She suggested that as part of the IVF protocol we get these intralipid infusions. She said there was some evidence for it helping scientifically, but it wasn't all that well studied. She said it wouldn't hurt and in her experience has helped often when patients had undiagnosed infertility issues like we had. My wife went and got the infusion as we were preparing to begin IVF treatment in a few months and it has a half life, so we figured it'd be worth it to get 1-2 before starting IVF. Well, no kidding she got pregnant that month. She continued the intralipids for the first 3 months of the pregnancy and we had a perfectly healthy baby girl.

Fast forward 2.5 years and we were having trouble again. So we decided to do the intralipids again. This time we didn't get quite as lucky, but on the second round of intralipids she got pregnant again. A healthy baby boy. While it's not a confirmed diagnosis every doctor we've talked to said it's almost a certainty that she also has endometriosis.

It's a relatively inexpensive and completely healthy option that might be worth trying for 1-2 rounds that worked for us twice. Definitely something I'd suggest you look into.

I don't have any specific links, but here is a study saying it could help:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4518016/

"Evidences from both animal and human studies suggest that intralipid administered intravenously may enhance implantation and maintenance of pregnancy when the patient has an abnormal NK cell level or function."

They basically found that it may help with implantation, but if you already have a history of implantation failures it may not fix that.

Anyways I wish you and your wife well regardless of the decision you make. I know it's tough.

Regarding friends kids' and gifts that's an interesting issue. We only give our friends' kids gifts at their birthday party and they are just kids toys. Like $20-$30 worth of stuff. Is the expectation that you give that much or did you just start to do it, so now it's become a norm for you that they might think is odd if you give less?

[Just Joe]

Everybody goes Dutch. No reason to have one big bill in 2020.

I'll second everything already said: cut back the gifts until you feel you are willing and able again. In our circle it was more like $20 per kid for gifts.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I feel for you, having been where you are and it not ending like I wanted. Some random thoughts:
—not having children when you want them is rough and it’s a major loss, you may want to consider couple and/or individual therapy to process the loss if it still weighs on either of you or both
—it is quite frustrating and painful sometimes being the non kids person in the group. There’s no real solution except finding others who don’t have kids, or getting to the point where it doesn’t bother you. You can also let these friends know separately how much it hurts when they make their have kids comments
—while you deal with the lay off, you can put your mask on first and take a year off of gifts, or give a smaller gift for this year

I wish you all the best with it

[vand]

To put it rather bluntly, your friends are rather insensitive twerks.

Tell them in very firm terms that leaves no room for interpretation that these comments are not welcomed. Make sure they get the memo.

We have friends who cannot conceive and we never ever ‘drop hints’. As such we have exactly the same relationship with them as we did before we became parents, and they are always delighted to see us and our little’un.

[Imma]

To put it rather bluntly, your friends are rather insensitive twerks.

Tell them in very firm terms that leaves no room for interpretation that these comments are not welcomed. Make sure they get the memo.

We have friends who cannot conceive and we never ever ‘drop hints’. As such we have exactly the same relationship with them as we did before we became parents, and they are always delighted to see us and our little’un.

We are involuntarily childless and even though our close friends and family are all aware of this, I'm surprised at how many people still make insensitive comments. Not everyone of course, but more than I had expected, people who aren't known for being rude and insensitive normally. I think that because in our situation we haven't "tried" because a pregnancy in itself is too big of a health risk for me, people somehow still think there's a chance it may happen.

I'm also shocked by the amount of people that we only know casually (neighbours, friends of friends) who will ask when we are finally starting a family. I was warned this happens when you're in your 30s, but even before we found out having children is not in our future, I have absolutely never asked a question like that to anyone. I've always been taught that's super rude and you should never ask that anyone.

[Captain FIRE]

I'm also shocked by the amount of people that we only know casually (neighbours, friends of friends) who will ask when we are finally starting a family. I was warned this happens when you're in your 30s, but even before we found out having children is not in our future, I have absolutely never asked a question like that to anyone. I've always been taught that's super rude and you should never ask that anyone.

Oh yes.
My "favorite" was being asked the same day that my miscarriage was confirmed.
That said, repeat offenders you see often are easier to stop than the many casual friends whom you don't see often and may only comment 1-2x, it's just that those times cumulatively all add up.  Or family who don't always stop asking.

[Imma]

I'm also shocked by the amount of people that we only know casually (neighbours, friends of friends) who will ask when we are finally starting a family. I was warned this happens when you're in your 30s, but even before we found out having children is not in our future, I have absolutely never asked a question like that to anyone. I've always been taught that's super rude and you should never ask that anyone.

Oh yes.
My "favorite" was being asked the same day that my miscarriage was confirmed.
That said, repeat offenders you see often are easier to stop than the many casual friends whom you don't see often and may only comment 1-2x, it's just that those times cumulatively all add up.  Or family who don't always stop asking.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that. If you punched them they totally deserved it.

[wageslave23]

I am not in this situation so I don't know if you would feel comfortable saying this, but could you just reply "we can't".   I feel like that would end the comments pretty abruptly and then your friends would realize that its not something fun to give you a hard time about, that you actually have a serious reason to not have children.

[Metalcat]

I am not in this situation so I don't know if you would feel comfortable saying this, but could you just reply "we can't".   I feel like that would end the comments pretty abruptly and then your friends would realize that its not something fun to give you a hard time about, that you actually have a serious reason to not have children.

Lol! You would think so! But it doesn't!

[PJC74]

I got married and had kids in my mid 30’s.
Mid to late 20’s a lot of my friends got married and started a family. As much as I tried , the dynamic when you add kids into the mix changes dramatically. Honestly I tried hard but didn’t get much enjoyment hanging out with them. Everything  centers around the kid whether it’s naps , feeding , playing etc and if you don’t have kids is a total drag. I shifted to hanging out with couples with no kids for the next 10 years or so and had a great time.

[moneypitfeeder]

This: 1) Simply start giving smaller amounts...I agree with the previous poster. I'm childless (2nd marriage, SO got snipped b4 we married due to already having 4 kids, now grown). I have been the "aunt" to many friend's kids that aren't my blood. I try to keep my gifts for their children to the 25-30 dollar range, which is comfortable for us. The dollar amount should matter much less than the support and love you can offer freely. You might want to determine a general amount that you are comfortable with for gifting (factoring for how many you gift to) and focus more on how you may be able to provide the "village"  that can help to raise a child. For example, we provide (time permitting) free daycare or transport when a friend with children needs backup, along with teaching things that are more our wheelhouse than the parents...like taking the kids foraging or birding, hiking, or kayaking.

[charis]

I'm interested in the cultural/dynamic that leads to adults giving $100/$200 to their friends' kids.  Is this common where you live or in your culture?  You can tell from the responses that many are surprised by this.  Giving such extravagant gifts, even on a higher salary, is very strange to me.  My kids got gifts at their birth, the most expensive was probably a monogrammed blanket.

[wageslave23]

My gift giving for friends kids has been only if I'm going to their birthday party and usually in the $20-$25 range.  My now wife would give her friends kids about $50-$100 before we got married.  When we got married she thought it was very generous when relatives gifted us $100.  I pointed out the inconsistency and agreed that $100 for a wedding was very nice but comparatively a friend's child's birthday gift should then be no more than $30.  She agreed. I think its good to step back and re evaluate things periodically.   If we gave $100 for friends kids birthdays, we'd would have to gift $10,000 a year for friends, family, birthdays, Christmas, weddings, babies, etc. In order to be consistent.   It would be over my dead body 🤣.  In my philosophy, gifts are a token. Im not trying to transfer wealth, if a kid wants that much money, they can get a job.

[Imma]

In my philosophy, gifts are a token. Im not trying to transfer wealth, if a kid wants that much money, they can get a job.

In case people do want to transfer wealth to nieces, nephews, godchildren I wouldn't want to do that in the form of a cash gift to the kid. I think I'd rather help pay for college or for sports/art/music lessons if that's not something the parents can afford.

[Jouer]

My wife and I are DINKs in our 40s. We found that we didn't see some friends as often once they started having kids but some we maybe see more often.

Sure we're not invited to kids birthday parties...but why would we? But we still hang out as much as we always did - dinners at each other's houses, backyard drinks, etc. In fact some friends, even those with kids, remark that they love hanging with us because there is no kid talk. This may be because most of my friends were older when they had kids so maybe the behavior is different than parents in their 20s. ??

All this to say: don't give up on those friends yet. You may end up their favorites.