Author Topic: Mad Fientist post - Happiness through Subtraction (Read 9521 times)

daverobev · « **on:** May 21, 2015, 11:18:49 AM »

http://www.madfientist.com/happiness-through-subtraction/

Just gave this a skim through. I haven't read any other stuff on this site.

Not sure if it should go in Post FI or here, but I guess it is for everyone. I'm certainly guilty of getting tunnel vision - must! save! more! - and now I'm sort've out the other side I feel some empathy with the need to spend more of my life doing things I like doing. I'm just not sure where to start. Well, I have some ideas (learn to work on a project car - but we don't have a garage!).

One thing I will (almost) certainly doing this coming winter in Ontario is leaving for a month or so! It takes a couple of years for things to sink in, but my God I am so done with 4 months straight of negative temperatures. I am so much happier now it's warm out (and I hate the humid heat too so I splurged on a $300 ac unit... after getting a window unit on sale last year and dropping it out the window... yeah I felt good that day).

Um. Random.

Thoughts?

sisto · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2015, 11:58:45 AM »

That was a great article and so true for me. After reading it, I'm terrified. I'm in a really unhappy place right now and I can't seem to shake it. I have a great job, but I really hate it right now. I can retire from it in 6 years and just keep trying to get through it so I can retire and be HAPPY! Now I'm afraid that might not happen. I might get there and be disappointed. I've been working really hard on being happy, but find I have no energy and would just rather sit home and do nothing. I definitely need to get out of this rut.

Cookie78 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2015, 12:20:54 PM »

Quote from: sisto on May 21, 2015, 11:58:45 AM

That was a great article and so true for me. After reading it, I'm terrified. I'm in a really unhappy place right now and I can't seem to shake it. I have a great job, but I really hate it right now. I can retire from it in 6 years and just keep trying to get through it so I can retire and be HAPPY! Now I'm afraid that might not happen. I might get there and be disappointed. I've been working really hard on being happy, but find I have no energy and would just rather sit home and do nothing. I definitely need to get out of this rut.

I agree completely, great article and very timely as I am in the same boat (except I hope I can FIRE in 2-3 years). The last couple months have been particularly difficult for me. Yesterday as I was adding to my list of things to do once I'm FIRE'd I realized that finding happiness should have been one of them. Not only that, but it's one of the things I should start doing before FIRE, because reaching the magic number is not going to magically change my mental state. And if it comes to it, counseling is free through work now, but will cost me if I wait until I quit.

My biggest problem is figuring how to make that change. I'm still spending time with friends and loved ones and doing lots of new (inexpensive) things and meeting new people and just got back from Peru (not inexpensive). On paper I should be happy. The only things I really want to eliminate are the need to be at my job on their schedule and my properties. I can't eliminate either of those things until I reach my FI number (and the housing market cooperates). I've already eliminated all the negative people and unnecessary obligations from my life and am working on eliminating the unnecessary crap via decluttering.

Cheddar Stacker · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2015, 12:42:04 PM »

Quote from: daverobev on May 21, 2015, 11:18:49 AM

http://www.madfientist.com/happiness-through-subtraction/

Just gave this a skim through. I haven't read any other stuff on this site.
...
Thoughts?

You should read through the other stuff on his site. Although it's absolutely nothing like this post.

I thought it was well done. Happiness is a tricky thing for most people. I'm starting to figure it out, but still have a lot to learn. I'm not concerned with hitting a number, reaching FI, etc. My main goal is to provide more time for myself to pursue things that make me happy. Dropping the job will provide this, but so will dropping all the shit I don't want to be doing in my life. A simple, slow, focused life is proving to be a happier one for me.

sisto · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2015, 12:42:08 PM »

Quote from: Cookie78 on May 21, 2015, 12:20:54 PM

Quote from: sisto on May 21, 2015, 11:58:45 AM
That was a great article and so true for me. After reading it, I'm terrified. I'm in a really unhappy place right now and I can't seem to shake it. I have a great job, but I really hate it right now. I can retire from it in 6 years and just keep trying to get through it so I can retire and be HAPPY! Now I'm afraid that might not happen. I might get there and be disappointed. I've been working really hard on being happy, but find I have no energy and would just rather sit home and do nothing. I definitely need to get out of this rut.

I agree completely, great article and very timely as I am in the same boat (except I hope I can FIRE in 2-3 years). The last couple months have been particularly difficult for me. Yesterday as I was adding to my list of things to do once I'm FIRE'd I realized that finding happiness should have been one of them. Not only that, but it's one of the things I should start doing before FIRE, because reaching the magic number is not going to magically change my mental state. And if it comes to it, counseling is free through work now, but will cost me if I wait until I quit.

My biggest problem is figuring how to make that change. I'm still spending time with friends and loved ones and doing lots of new (inexpensive) things and meeting new people and just got back from Peru (not inexpensive). On paper I should be happy. The only things I really want to eliminate are the need to be at my job on their schedule and my properties. I can't eliminate either of those things until I reach my FI number (and the housing market cooperates). I've already eliminated all the negative people and unnecessary obligations from my life and am working on eliminating the unnecessary crap via decluttering.

I totally get it. Yes I too should be happy, I really do have a great life. I guess there is just something missing or work has really burned me out.

Cookie78 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2015, 12:48:15 PM »

Quote from: Cheddar Stacker on May 21, 2015, 12:42:04 PM

You should read through the other stuff on his site. Although it's absolutely nothing like this post.

I thought it was well done. Happiness is a tricky thing for most people. I'm starting to figure it out, but still have a lot to learn. I'm not concerned with hitting a number, reaching FI, etc. My main goal is to provide more time for myself to pursue things that make me happy. Dropping the job will provide this, but so will dropping all the shit I don't want to be doing in my life. A simple, slow, focused life is proving to be a happier one for me.

A simple slow focused life is something I've been working at achieving too. Dropping unnecessary things and realizing what my priorities are. I've come a long way, but I have a long way to go and a lot to learn.

Gone Fishing · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2015, 01:10:08 PM »

+1 on positive social interaction. Despite all of my FI efforts, I have almost always said, "yes" (when scheduling premits) to weekend get togethers with friends and family 2-4 hours away. Because we generally potluck when we get there, our only additional expense is gas, usually less than $40 in the family commuter, which is well worth it.

-1 on the "avoidance of unhappiness". To many people use this as an excuse for excessive convenience. For example: "I am tired of cooking so we are getting takeout". In this case, takeout will only provide a short burst of relief, not true happiness. A better term for permanently "buying" your way out of an 8-6 job is autonomy. Autonomy has been shown to make people truly happier over the long term vs the short buzz provided by the typical "avoidance of unhappiness". I would argue the pursuit of something that can make you truly happy (autonomy, quality social interaction) might be worth quite a bit of unhappiness to obtain.

Chris22 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2015, 01:42:50 PM »

Quote from: So Close on May 21, 2015, 01:10:08 PM

A better term for permanently "buying" your way out of an 8-6 job is autonomy. Autonomy has been shown to make people truly happier over the long term vs the short buzz provided by the typical "avoidance of unhappiness". I would argue the pursuit of something that can make you truly happy (autonomy, quality social interaction) might be worth quite a bit of unhappiness to obtain.

I wonder how many people relentlessly striving for FIRE would be better served simply searching for a new job. I've had jobs that make me miserable, but normally I enjoy what I do and do not think I would be happier without my job. On the subject of autonomy, I think part of my satisfaction comes from knowing I am appreciated and fairly paid at work, and that I have transferable skills so if things change I can find a new role and be outta here if necessary. I get calls from recruiters begging me to go on interviews weekly, so I don't worry about being at the whims of the company. Basically, I could be autonomous if I needed to be, but don't to be.

jms493 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2015, 02:04:43 PM »

Great Article...thanks for posting.

bacchi · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2015, 02:14:00 PM »

I follow the Dr. Doom position (or my interpretation of his blog): it's the job, any job. FI has not solved it; RE will.

cschx · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2015, 04:19:06 PM »

I also read MF's article today and was struck by how many early retirees (both current and aspiring) seem to ignore common wisdom about being happy in retirement. Things like staying socially connected, having already developed hobbies and interests to which one can turn one's attention, etc... all tend to get short shrift compared to "weird tax avoidance strategies." Maybe we assume this is a senior problem, or maybe we're just so focused on achieving FI that we don't have time to think about what comes after.

A pretty good book I recently read on this topic is Ralph Warner's Get A Life. It's aimed at traditional retirees, but has a lot of advice I think would be useful to anyone contemplating retirement at any age. He actually went out and interviewed a bunch of retired folks, and I found some of the interviews to be pretty enlightening.

matchewed · « **Reply #11 on:** May 21, 2015, 04:27:59 PM »

I think his post is spot on. We as individuals are pretty shitty at understanding what makes us happy. We rely on cues around us to tell us what will. Sadly the monopoly on cues is usually advertising, hence the consumer culture. People who decide to step away from the mainstream culture need to learn on their own or find those who know and try what works on themselves. Sometimes they can fall into the right answer(s) on their own or struggle through trying thing after thing.

The subtraction bit is what is interesting. Happiness to me is what is there all the time. It is those other things in life which can distract from it, that is why I think I can learn to be happy in almost any situation. The happy isn't gone, it is my perception/perspective which can be flawed. If something is making me unhappy then I'll stop it, perhaps if it's worth my time analyze it to figure out the why and remove that portion so I can go back to the thing. If it's not worth my time then screw it. I don't have to do that thing.

Genevieve · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2015, 07:04:13 PM »

I loved this article!

I really think you have to make sure you enjoy the journey, not just the end result of FI. FI is a money goal, but it's still up to you to enjoy your life. I think it's a shame to wait 3-10 years to make your life happier just because you get obsessed about a money number.

I went through the same obsession myself, but I've made changes in my life that delayed earning good money by about a year, and I'm so much happier for it.

1) I quit a toxic job -- currently spent about 8 months in a mini-retirement -- and I'm looking for a job now. I'm looking forward to getting the new job in a field I love!
2) We also moved to a bigger city with more cultural events and warmer weather.

The delayed earnings are so worth it. We only needed about $20k in liquid savings to make the transition. No where near FI levels.

I think we might even end up getting to FI sooner.

StockBeard · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2015, 07:08:37 PM »

Quote from: Cookie78 on May 21, 2015, 12:20:54 PM

On paper I should be happy. The only things I really want to eliminate are the need to be at my job on their schedule and my properties. I can't eliminate either of those things until I reach my FI number (and the housing market cooperates).

I'm right here with you for the job part. I don't want to quit my job because it is, after all, the way to fuel my Early retirement, but the next 2-3 years are going to be very tough. See: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/did-you-ever-feel-the-frustration-of-being-%27close-to-the-goal%27/

Browsing these forums, finding people in the same situation as me, kind of comforts me, so I hope that my reply helps you too. Hang in there :)

southern granny · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2015, 07:28:17 PM »

This is exactly why we did not retire earlier. We were not willing to give up the things that made us happy in order to retire early. It made me happy to take our kids to florida every summer. It made me happy to go out to dinner with friends. Giving to charity makes me happy. It makes me happy to give the grandkids a nice Christmas. Even though we will not retire until age 60, we have truly enjoyed our lives. We have taken some nice vacations and a lot of weekend trips. I do regret the money we spent on eating out just because we didn't feel like cooking. I don't regret any money that we spent on travel or eating with friends.. even though it meant we worked longer. I was happy then, I am happy now, and I will be happy retired.

Schaefer Light · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2015, 07:39:54 AM »

I like this concept:

"We are terrible at predicting what will make us happier but it’s obvious what makes us unhappy so rather than pursue something that likely won’t actually improve our well-being, focus instead on eliminating the things that definitely make us unhappy and the net result will be increased happiness!"

That's exactly why I'm motivated to RE. However, I think it's also important to spend time doing things you love (even if they cost a bit more than you would like). If you don't develop some hobbies, then what are you going to do when you're retired?

celticmyst08 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 22, 2015, 10:36:53 AM »

This article hit home for me since I've been struggling recently with the concept of being happy with my current state in life. Once I reach FIRE, I won't be magically happy if I haven't learned how to be happy already. Just like getting a raise doesn't make me any happier -- it provides a brief rush, and then it's back to normal again.

Cheddar Stacker · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2015, 10:44:22 AM »

I've posted this link on the MMM forum before, and so have a few others, but I'm going to do it again. This post fits very nicely along side the OP's linked post.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/11/life-is-picture-but-you-live-in-pixel.html

StockBeard · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2015, 10:52:54 AM »

Quote from: Cheddar Stacker on May 22, 2015, 10:44:22 AM

I've posted this link on the MMM forum before, and so have a few others, but I'm going to do it again. This post fits very nicely along side the OP's linked post.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/11/life-is-picture-but-you-live-in-pixel.html

Not sure if inspired or depressed after reading this...

(Edit: but great read nonetheless)

FrugalFan · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2015, 10:56:00 AM »

Quote from: frugalconfederate on May 21, 2015, 07:28:17 PM

This is exactly why we did not retire earlier. We were not willing to give up the things that made us happy in order to retire early. It made me happy to take our kids to florida every summer. It made me happy to go out to dinner with friends. Giving to charity makes me happy. It makes me happy to give the grandkids a nice Christmas. Even though we will not retire until age 60, we have truly enjoyed our lives. We have taken some nice vacations and a lot of weekend trips. I do regret the money we spent on eating out just because we didn't feel like cooking. I don't regret any money that we spent on travel or eating with friends.. even though it meant we worked longer. I was happy then, I am happy now, and I will be happy retired.

I liked the article, and this post resonates with me. We could have a much higher savings rate if we didn't travel as much, but we want to enjoy these special experiences with our kids, and it gives us a break from the work and a burst of renewed energy in the process. Yes, it may take us longer to reach FI, but hopefully the process will be more enjoyable that way.

Cookie78 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2015, 10:56:20 AM »

Quote from: Cheddar Stacker on May 22, 2015, 10:44:22 AM

I've posted this link on the MMM forum before, and so have a few others, but I'm going to do it again. This post fits very nicely along side the OP's linked post.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/11/life-is-picture-but-you-live-in-pixel.html

That was awesome. :)

Eric · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2015, 11:01:25 AM »

Quote from: Schaefer Light on May 22, 2015, 07:39:54 AM

That's exactly why I'm motivated to RE. However, I think it's also important to spend time doing things you love (even if they cost a bit more than you would like). If you don't develop some hobbies, then what are you going to do when you're retired?

Ummm, develop hobbies?

Cheddar Stacker · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2015, 11:06:22 AM »

Quote from: wololo on May 22, 2015, 10:52:54 AM

Not sure if inspired or depressed after reading this...

(Edit: but great read nonetheless)

Quote from: Cookie78 on May 22, 2015, 10:56:20 AM

That was awesome. :)

Glad you liked it. If you didn't watch the TED talk, go back. It's worth the 20 minutes it will take. And if you still want more, here's a journal post of mine about this article, and a lot of subsequent discussion about happiness/joy/philosophy, etc.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/the-cheddar-block/msg443656/#msg443656

daverobev · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2015, 03:35:25 PM »

Quote from: Cookie78 on May 22, 2015, 10:56:20 AM

Quote from: Cheddar Stacker on May 22, 2015, 10:44:22 AM
I've posted this link on the MMM forum before, and so have a few others, but I'm going to do it again. This post fits very nicely along side the OP's linked post.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/11/life-is-picture-but-you-live-in-pixel.html

That was awesome. :)

Yes, nice analogy for life, I like it. Buddhist I guess - live in the now.

arebelspy · « **Reply #24 on:** May 26, 2015, 02:02:26 PM »

Great article, thanks for the link. Really outside the typical MFMF post, but what great insight.

Reminded me of Dr. Doom's struggles with similar feelings (down to the "out in nature and realizing I'm depressed" thing).

fartface · « **Reply #25 on:** May 27, 2015, 11:22:54 AM »

Quote from: frugalconfederate on May 21, 2015, 07:28:17 PM

This is exactly why we did not retire earlier. We were not willing to give up the things that made us happy in order to retire early. It made me happy to take our kids to florida every summer. It made me happy to go out to dinner with friends. Giving to charity makes me happy. It makes me happy to give the grandkids a nice Christmas. Even though we will not retire until age 60, we have truly enjoyed our lives. We have taken some nice vacations and a lot of weekend trips. I do regret the money we spent on eating out just because we didn't feel like cooking. I don't regret any money that we spent on travel or eating with friends.. even though it meant we worked longer. I was happy then, I am happy now, and I will be happy retired.

Nice! You sound wise and balanced. 60 is still a great number!

Bob W · « **Reply #26 on:** May 27, 2015, 11:35:40 AM »

Quote from: Cheddar Stacker on May 22, 2015, 11:06:22 AM

Quote from: wololo on May 22, 2015, 10:52:54 AM
Not sure if inspired or depressed after reading this...

(Edit: but great read nonetheless)

Quote from: Cookie78 on May 22, 2015, 10:56:20 AM
That was awesome. :)

Glad you liked it. If you didn't watch the TED talk, go back. It's worth the 20 minutes it will take. And if you still want more, here's a journal post of mine about this article, and a lot of subsequent discussion about happiness/joy/philosophy, etc.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/the-cheddar-block/msg443656/#msg443656

Thanks for the Tim Urban link --- I hadn't read that one yet.

My favorite quote on happiness -- "no matter where you go -- there you are"

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Author Topic: Mad Fientist post - Happiness through Subtraction (Read 9521 times)

cschx