Author Topic: Low-Class Transportation?  (Read 14766 times)

darkadams00

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Low-Class Transportation?
« on: April 03, 2015, 07:14:00 AM »
In a conversation with a coworker last week, we discussed different means of transportation--both everyday commuting/errand running and traveling. His wife comes from an aspiring family (income statement rich, balance sheet not rich but not poor) and has developed a strong sense of "The.Definition.Of.Class.In.Society." That includes neighborhoods, clothes, vacations, restaurants, and, of course, transportation. And he's struggling because he's been married almost 20 years and has had to move more to her side of the discussion simply to keep peace at home (and he has begun to internalize some of "her" arguing points, but I don't tell him that).

Simply put, he laid out a hierarchy of his/her definition of the Transportation Social Class Ladder as follows:

  • Everyday/Around Town
  • Personal Driver
  • Hired Driver
  • Drive Own Luxury Vehicle
  • Drive Own Non-Luxury Vehicle
  • Taxi
  • Train/Subway
  • Bike
  • Bus
  • Moderate-Distance Travel
  • Drive Own Luxury Vehicle
  • Drive Own Non-Luxury Vehicle
  • Train
  • Bus
  • Long-Distance Travel
  • Personal Plane
  • Hired Plane
  • Airline
  • Train
  • Bus

This led to an interesting discussion. Obviously, most of my coworkers and the folks on this forum aren't in the personal driver/plane category. Differentiation among airlines, trains, cars, buses, cabs, and bikes from the perspective of someone who is fairly rigid in their definition of "what middle and upper class people do" versus "the riff-raff" is enlightening when it expands beyond just the standard "Driving a Car" vs "Riding a Bike" topic.

How do you feel transportation is identified with social class in your area? I assume the definitions might be different between suburban and urban areas, and probably across different countries as well. Do you think your chosen transportation methods are at par with your peers or at a lower/higher level? For me, since my family is a one-car biking family who regularly uses buses and trains as needed, we are definitely mixing it up with the lower classes according to my friend (although I must admit most of my coworkers do give me high office cred for being the all-weather biking dude). What do you think?


Retire-Canada

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 07:23:49 AM »
Your list for Around Town seems reasonable for our fine city.

The only things I would add/change are:

Everyday/Around Town

- Personal Driver
- Hired Driver
- Drive Own Luxury Vehicle
- fancy motorcycle w/ matchy matchy riding gear
- Taxi
- Drive Own Non-Luxury Vehicle
- fancy bicycle in fancy clothes
- average motorcycle normal clothes
- Train/Subway [we don't have any]
- fancy scooter
- average bike normal clothes
- average scooter
- Bus
- homeless bicycle + trailer

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 07:29:09 AM »
Reporting in from the hipster/hippy/green capital of Young Rich People (aka, downtown Portland). Bike riding is actually a very socially upscale thing to do here. And we have another category for consideration: many of my neighbors forego personal cars and use car2go and similar services to rent cars (smart cars and prius primarily) if they need a quick trip. And for those who commute to Seattle, train seems to be the preferred and acceptable means of getting there.

I have never seen a personal driver down here though. I'm sure there are some, but I don't see a lot of 'old money' types here.

(As I was typing Vikb's reply came up... I agree with the bicycle hierarchy).

Retire-Canada

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 07:32:40 AM »
Reporting in from the hipster/hippy/green capital of Young Rich People (aka, downtown Portland). Bike riding is actually a very socially upscale thing to do here.

Here as well. I was tempted to put fancy bicycle with fancy clothes above taxi, but that would depend if you were in one of the social groups that can tell a $10K bike from a $500 bike. Generically I figured it was regarded a bit lower.

-- Vik

HazelStone

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 07:55:41 AM »
Reporting in from the hipster/hippy/green capital of Young Rich People (aka, downtown Portland). Bike riding is actually a very socially upscale thing to do here. And we have another category for consideration: many of my neighbors forego personal cars and use car2go and similar services to rent cars (smart cars and prius primarily) if they need a quick trip. And for those who commute to Seattle, train seems to be the preferred and acceptable means of getting there.


Well yeah, if you're in a "trendy" area and you're biking around town, that usually implies that your home is somewhere within, or very close to, the trendy area.

Rural

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2015, 10:16:16 AM »
Ours is shorter because of more limited options:


Drive older truck with bales of hay or horse/cattle trailer (highest class because these are the farm owners)
Drive shiny newer truck, no hay
Drive fairly new car
Drive older truck, no hay
Drive old car
Walk

darkadams00

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2015, 10:33:56 AM »
Ours is shorter because of more limited options:


Drive older truck with bales of hay or horse/cattle trailer (highest class because these are the farm owners)
Drive shiny newer truck, no hay
Drive fairly new car
Drive older truck, no hay
Drive old car
Walk

That was classic! So the shiny, newer truck, no hay is the equivalent of "big hat, no cattle" I guess.

Rural

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 10:46:53 AM »
Ours is shorter because of more limited options:


Drive older truck with bales of hay or horse/cattle trailer (highest class because these are the farm owners)
Drive shiny newer truck, no hay
Drive fairly new car
Drive older truck, no hay
Drive old car
Walk

That was classic! So the shiny, newer truck, no hay is the equivalent of "big hat, no cattle" I guess.


Yep, literally.

jmusic

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 10:53:29 AM »
Ours is shorter because of more limited options:


Drive older truck with bales of hay or horse/cattle trailer (highest class because these are the farm owners)
Drive shiny newer truck, no hay
Drive fairly new car
Drive older truck, no hay
Drive old car
Walk

That was classic! So the shiny, newer truck, no hay is the equivalent of "big hat, no cattle" I guess.


Yep, literally.

That's like 98% of Texas.  :)

boognish

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 12:28:14 PM »
Unfortunately public trans has a horrible stigma in Southern California. To most people, taking the bus is an indicator that you are destitute or mentally ill.


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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 12:53:19 PM »
Many flaws. What about walking?  What if you're a legit descendant or royalty/aristocracy who prefers to walk?  What if you're the Minister of Silly Walks?  What if you just have a lot of class - i.e. you're cooler than The Fonze?  Or have negative class like Kim Kardashian but ride in a limo?  I think a better question is: if Superman and Batman fought, who would win?

mnsaver

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2015, 06:11:40 PM »
Why does train subway rank higher then the bus? They would both be run by the same transit system. (though people tend to like riding in trains/subway more then the bus and in cities where light rail has replaced a bus route ridership increases drastically.)

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2015, 07:37:21 PM »
The issue I see here is people intertwining 'class' with 'financial means'.

Or that class comes from spending money. That's the thinking that got people financing 'luxury' SUVs.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2015, 10:24:46 PM »
Why does train subway rank higher then the bus? They would both be run by the same transit system. (though people tend to like riding in trains/subway more then the bus and in cities where light rail has replaced a bus route ridership increases drastically.)

I know here different forms of public transit carry vary different levels of stigma. Lightrail is highest- inside downtown commuters and tourists use this. Max is next. Then busses.

Syonyk

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2015, 11:35:56 PM »
I can tell a $500 bike from a $10k bike, but probably couldn't tell the difference between $3k and $10k.

I assume most people outside my office think I ride an ebike because I have too many DUIs. My coworkers at least have to suffer through my tech talks on electric bicycles...

BPA

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2015, 12:13:43 AM »
I am so glad that I don't care what other people think.  Cycling and public transit are both fairly safe here and that is all that matters to me.  I once had a co-worker sneer at me for not having a car, but then he later seemed envious and a bit angry that I had more disposable income than he did as a result. 

I have noticed that many not very intelligent people around here hate cyclists (and e-bikes too).  I've gotten arguments like it's not fair that I don't have to pay for insurance or gas tax.  When I point out the benefits to society of my cycling (such as cleaner air and a healthier body that won't  be as likely to impact our universal health care system), they don't have an answer for that. 






Syonyk

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2015, 12:54:28 AM »
Taxing bikes is coming in Seattle at some point. The hated for bike lanes and "free loading cyclists" is strong here.

chouchouu

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2015, 01:22:35 AM »
Sydney here. Judging from my social circle

Super luxury vehicle such as Aston Martin .01%ers
Small Japanese car such as a Honda Jazz, Toyota echo equals high income 1%
Taxis -these are expensive here, often used by 1%ers
Bikes-upper income brackets
Luxury vehicle such as BMW SUV-bought on finance, middle income families
Regular vehicle-also middle income families, not much difference between these and the luxury car buyers.

Public transport-everyone except a small minority of 1%ers, usually older generation.

I have never seen a driver here, never.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2015, 02:07:08 AM »
 I'd say that's pretty accurate for where I live. However, I would put taxis above driving your own car. It's like having a hired driver! (Though maybe taxis are lower status outside London where black cabs don't exist and they are not so insanely expensive.)

deborah

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2015, 02:15:25 AM »
As a purpose built national capital, we have a smaller population, and our only mass transit is buses (although we are planning a tram) - there is a train, but only one stop, and there are a couple of airports.

personal driver (head of a consulate, Australian head of state etc.)
running (our Prime Minister is a fitness nut - loves being photographed in Lycra, or competing in a triathlon..., and his predecessor on that side of politics was also photographed that way when he was PM)
bicycling (see above)
bright blue number plates (these are foreign dignitaries - keep clear)
everything else

We have one politician who is also one of the wealthiest people in the country, and he delights in having his driver drive a different very expensive car every day he deigns to visit parliament.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 02:17:23 AM by deborah »

Melody

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2015, 06:44:39 AM »
Ha ha ha this just reminded me of the Kevin Rudd jogs! In his tracksuit with his Kevin 07 shirt wearing friends :-) if I am ever pm I will do it on rollerskates and have my posse on op shop bikes trailing after me :-)

Melody

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2015, 06:46:04 AM »
Agree tho, in Perth bus has less stigma than the train as it means you likely live in a trendy inner urban suburb... Also buses have less crime and feel safer. Lots of people I work with would never dream of riding trains but are quite happy to jump on the bus.

shedinator

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2015, 07:01:23 AM »
Why does train subway rank higher then the bus? They would both be run by the same transit system. (though people tend to like riding in trains/subway more then the bus and in cities where light rail has replaced a bus route ridership increases drastically.)

When last I lived where both were available, one needed only to look at the corresponding destinations to answer this. Trains connected suburbs to downtown, and only went through low income neighborhoods if they were the shortest route between those two. Buses had at least one terminus in a low income neighborhood. They were also cheaper to ride. So if you were getting on the bus, you were perceived as lower income.

caliq

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2015, 07:56:24 AM »
I much prefer trains (Amtrak, really) to driving myself for mid-range trips...you can spend 3-4 hours getting shit done rather than stressing about traffic and getting lost or whatever.  It's quite lovely. 

In terms of other methods, there is literally no public transportation where I live (have to drive ~30 mins to train station even), so I guess it would be (for local transport):
Luxury car
Normal car
Beater car
Bike (really only see kids riding around here; people using bikes for exercise tend to stick to trails, not streets)
Walking

Yay for outer ring suburbs :/

BPA

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2015, 01:39:20 PM »
Taxing bikes is coming in Seattle at some point. The hated for bike lanes and "free loading cyclists" is strong here.

I laughed at "freeloading cyclists."  I haven't actually been called that yet, but the sentiment is there.  I wonder how exactly they will tax bikes.  I kind of get the e-bike resentment although when I used to have one, no one ever gave me a hard time. 

It's strange though.  Where I live, the stereotype is that those who live in Seattle are rather enlightened.  Maybe that is really not the case. 

And people can think I am low-class for cycling and taking the bus so long as it helps me optimize my finances.  :)

rocketpj

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2015, 03:18:32 PM »
Hmm, around here it is a bit different as we have a big ferry between most professionals and their jobs.  It's also not a big city here, and the nearest city is Vancouver - which has a lot of cyclists etc.

However, locally the breakdown goes as follows:

- luxury car/boat
- float plane (personal or airline)
- Ginormous pickup truck or SUV
- regular car
- economy car
- bus
- cyclist/pedestrian (did you lose your license for drunk driving?)

There is a parallel heirarchy of boats ranging from $1M yachts to 12 ft. runabouts and old canoes as well.

marty998

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2015, 03:55:11 PM »
Sydney here. Judging from my social circle

Super luxury vehicle such as Aston Martin .01%ers
Small Japanese car such as a Honda Jazz, Toyota echo equals high income 1%
Taxis -these are expensive here, often used by 1%ers
Bikes-upper income brackets
Luxury vehicle such as BMW SUV-bought on finance, middle income families
Regular vehicle-also middle income families, not much difference between these and the luxury car buyers.

Public transport-everyone except a small minority of 1%ers, usually older generation.

I have never seen a driver here, never.

Lets expand a bit

Super luxury vehicle such as Aston Martin .01%ers
Small Japanese car such as a Honda Jazz, Toyota echo equals high income 1%
Taxis -these are expensive here, often used by 1%ers
Manly Ferry
Bikes-upper income brackets
North Shore train (only as far south as Wynyard)
Luxury vehicle such as BMW SUV-bought on finance, middle income families
Eastern Suburbs Train (Bondi to Martin Place)
Eastern Suburbs Bus
Biking from Inner West
Regular vehicle-also middle income families, not much difference between these and the luxury car buyers.
Train from Upper North Shore, as far West as Ashfield, as far South as Wolli Creek
Train/bus from anywhere else
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 04:07:48 PM by marty998 »

Syonyk

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2015, 03:57:06 PM »
I laughed at "freeloading cyclists."  I haven't actually been called that yet, but the sentiment is there.  I wonder how exactly they will tax bikes.  I kind of get the e-bike resentment although when I used to have one, no one ever gave me a hard time. 

It's strange though.  Where I live, the stereotype is that those who live in Seattle are rather enlightened.  Maybe that is really not the case. 

Given Seattle, it'll probably somehow involve a billion dollars, totally screwing up traffic, and not actually making any money off bicyclists who totally ignore whatever laws the mayor tries to pass.  Bonus if it involves tunnels.  I really don't know how they will tax bikes, but it'll likely involve bike license plates, registration fees that are $100+/yr, and transponders.  Or something else similarly useless and absurd.

I haven't run into any resentment about the ebike thing, though I live on the east side.  The only people who can tell what I'm riding are into ebikes themselves (I think mine is obvious, but I built it...), and are more interested in what I did with it than how I'm "cheating" or anything.

Seattle is an interesting place.  There's a lot of hatred towards those with money (I believe the current term is "techie scum"), and a strong socialist movement.  I don't know if that counts as enlightened or not, but the politics here are ugly, and there are just too many people for the roads and space to live.  I won't miss it a bit when I leave.

BPA

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2015, 04:09:15 PM »
I laughed at "freeloading cyclists."  I haven't actually been called that yet, but the sentiment is there.  I wonder how exactly they will tax bikes.  I kind of get the e-bike resentment although when I used to have one, no one ever gave me a hard time. 

It's strange though.  Where I live, the stereotype is that those who live in Seattle are rather enlightened.  Maybe that is really not the case. 

Given Seattle, it'll probably somehow involve a billion dollars, totally screwing up traffic, and not actually making any money off bicyclists who totally ignore whatever laws the mayor tries to pass.  Bonus if it involves tunnels.  I really don't know how they will tax bikes, but it'll likely involve bike license plates, registration fees that are $100+/yr, and transponders.  Or something else similarly useless and absurd.

I haven't run into any resentment about the ebike thing, though I live on the east side.  The only people who can tell what I'm riding are into ebikes themselves (I think mine is obvious, but I built it...), and are more interested in what I did with it than how I'm "cheating" or anything.

Seattle is an interesting place.  There's a lot of hatred towards those with money (I believe the current term is "techie scum"), and a strong socialist movement.  I don't know if that counts as enlightened or not, but the politics here are ugly, and there are just too many people for the roads and space to live.  I won't miss it a bit when I leave.

Ha!  I am a socialist but believe in working with people whenever possible, not maligning them, and so would not like the attitude toward "techie scum."  My former FIL is one of the kindest and richest men I know.  Interesting to hear your perspective on Seattle.  Luckily, Hamilton, Ontario, where I live, is small enough that I can easily ride anywhere in it without getting tired, so that's why I no longer have the e-bike. 

Nudelkopf

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2015, 08:24:43 PM »
I can tell a $500 bike from a $10k bike, but probably couldn't tell the difference between $3k and $10k.
I was a little bit insulted that someone at work thought my coworker's $200 bike was better than my $1500 bike :( I've ridden hers, and it's definitely not better. It's like... I'm trying to be MMM by not owning a car (and never have)... But I still want to keep up with the Joneses with my fancy-pants bike.

seattleite

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2015, 08:51:47 PM »
I road the bus in Seattle from the rich neighborhoods on the outskirts of downtown to downtown and most days you'd here conversations about programming. A good percentage of the bus riding population from those neighborhoods made hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and lived in million dollar houses. The reason they (ehem me) took the bus was because 1. That's what you were supposed to do, 2. It took less thought and effort in the morning than driving a car and looking for parking, and 3. It was better for the environment. I always thought that among the tech community in Seattle bus was up at the top, near helicopter (you think I joke about this form of transportation).

But in Miami it always felt like only the lower classes took the bus.

chouchouu

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2015, 03:02:15 AM »
Sydney here. Judging from my social circle

Super luxury vehicle such as Aston Martin .01%ers
Small Japanese car such as a Honda Jazz, Toyota echo equals high income 1%
Taxis -these are expensive here, often used by 1%ers
Bikes-upper income brackets
Luxury vehicle such as BMW SUV-bought on finance, middle income families
Regular vehicle-also middle income families, not much difference between these and the luxury car buyers.

Public transport-everyone except a small minority of 1%ers, usually older generation.

I have never seen a driver here, never.

Lets expand a bit

Super luxury vehicle such as Aston Martin .01%ers
Small Japanese car such as a Honda Jazz, Toyota echo equals high income 1%
Taxis -these are expensive here, often used by 1%ers
Manly Ferry
Bikes-upper income brackets
North Shore train (only as far south as Wynyard)
Luxury vehicle such as BMW SUV-bought on finance, middle income families
Eastern Suburbs Train (Bondi to Martin Place)
Eastern Suburbs Bus
Biking from Inner West
Regular vehicle-also middle income families, not much difference between these and the luxury car buyers.
Train from Upper North Shore, as far West as Ashfield, as far South as Wolli Creek
Train/bus from anywhere else

Haha, very true, hadn't thought about the hierarchy of locations for public transport!

bzzzt

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2015, 06:49:23 AM »
Before finding MMM, I thought there were only 4 types of people over driving age that rode bikes:

-Bike messengers
-Hipsters
-People with too many DUIs to get a license
-MAMILs

Melody

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2015, 07:36:18 AM »
And people  avoiding dui's ... my bike saves me many a pricey taxi :-)

darkadams00

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2015, 10:28:28 AM »
Before finding MMM, I thought there were only 4 types of people over driving age that rode bikes:

-Bike messengers
-Hipsters
-People with too many DUIs to get a license
-MAMILs

I ride almost everyday and know many others who ride frequently for utility and/or recreation, and I had to google the "MAMILs" reference. This was funny but it's somewhat true for many of the recreational-only/competitive riding types that we have here at work. When I ride around in everyday shorts and tees with my steel bike and rear rack, the Lycra wearing, carbon riding folks look at me like I must be one of the unlicensed, DUI types or a poverty-stricken soul who lives in a hovel. There is definitely an air of superiority expressed by many of "the real cyclists" in interactive areas like locker rooms and bike shops.

If they only understood that my biking is a regular source of income savings, and theirs is an expense.

Syonyk

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2015, 10:33:37 AM »
I just don't park my ebike in the normal bike cage.  It saves a lot of that.  Though most people who care know me as the ebike guy (I'm pretty active in promoting them at work, do tech talks on them, and have written a rather long document detailing my thoughts on commuter ebikes in the Seattle area).  As near as I can tell, I've been responsible for a few people who didn't think they could bicycle getting electric assist bikes of some sort and riding them fairly regularly - I'm hoping to get a good selection of them at this year's tech talk to show off and let people poke with.

Yes, a straight up pedal bike is arguably better for various metrics, but "an ebike people actually ride" is still radically better than "a nice pedal bike in the garage," and a number of the people I've talked with have knee issues or hip issues that prevent them from being able to ride a normal bike (usually there's one steep hill somewhere on their commute they can't easily get over).

Also, I can out-smug the EV drivers. :)  They burn 200Wh/mi.  I burn about 25Wh/mi.

nereo

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2015, 10:41:22 AM »
Ours is shorter because of more limited options:


Drive older truck with bales of hay or horse/cattle trailer (highest class because these are the farm owners)
Drive shiny newer truck, no hay
Drive fairly new car
Drive older truck, no hay
Drive old car
Walk

That was classic! So the shiny, newer truck, no hay is the equivalent of "big hat, no cattle" I guess.
Cha-ching!  Entrepreneur Business idea!!
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jmusic

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2015, 10:46:32 AM »
Before finding MMM, I thought there were only 4 types of people over driving age that rode bikes:

-Bike messengers
-Hipsters
-People with too many DUIs to get a license
-MAMILs

I ride almost everyday and know many others who ride frequently for utility and/or recreation, and I had to google the "MAMILs" reference. This was funny but it's somewhat true for many of the recreational-only/competitive riding types that we have here at work. When I ride around in everyday shorts and tees with my steel bike and rear rack, the Lycra wearing, carbon riding folks look at me like I must be one of the unlicensed, DUI types or a poverty-stricken soul who lives in a hovel. There is definitely an air of superiority expressed by many of "the real cyclists" in interactive areas like locker rooms and bike shops.

If they only understood that my biking is a regular source of income savings, and theirs is an expense.

My steel road bike can blend in with either.  It's quite a large size and with the rear rack and pedals installed, weighs 20.5lbs.  I wear street or gym clothes to commute, and I can throw on lycra and not look out of place (except for the rack).  Bonus points that I don't really give a crap about the elitist culture. 

Eric

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2015, 10:48:42 AM »
And people  avoiding dui's ... my bike saves me many a pricey taxi :-)

It could be different in Australia, but in the US, you can get a DUI on a bike the same as in a car.  There's no differentiation on the books.  Be sure to check your local laws before drinking and cycling.  :)

jmusic

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2015, 11:23:02 AM »
I just don't park my ebike in the normal bike cage.  It saves a lot of that.  Though most people who care know me as the ebike guy (I'm pretty active in promoting them at work, do tech talks on them, and have written a rather long document detailing my thoughts on commuter ebikes in the Seattle area).  As near as I can tell, I've been responsible for a few people who didn't think they could bicycle getting electric assist bikes of some sort and riding them fairly regularly - I'm hoping to get a good selection of them at this year's tech talk to show off and let people poke with.

Yes, a straight up pedal bike is arguably better for various metrics, but "an ebike people actually ride" is still radically better than "a nice pedal bike in the garage," and a number of the people I've talked with have knee issues or hip issues that prevent them from being able to ride a normal bike (usually there's one steep hill somewhere on their commute they can't easily get over).

Also, I can out-smug the EV drivers. :)  They burn 200Wh/mi.  I burn about 25Wh/mi.

1.  Kudos for being an activist.  E-bikes are probably actually MORE efficient than a straight pedal bike if considering the financial/environmental cost of the extra food. 

2.  Probably the biggest issues with knee/hip pain are improper bike fit (I'd say 90% of cyclists I see have their seat WAY too low), and inadequate low gearing.

jmusic

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2015, 11:24:07 AM »
And people  avoiding dui's ... my bike saves me many a pricey taxi :-)

It could be different in Australia, but in the US, you can get a DUI on a bike the same as in a car.  There's no differentiation on the books.  Be sure to check your local laws before drinking and cycling.  :)

True, but it's a bit easier to conceal your state of intoxication (as long as you're not stumbling drunk).

celticmyst08

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2015, 11:49:14 AM »
I road the bus in Seattle from the rich neighborhoods on the outskirts of downtown to downtown and most days you'd here conversations about programming. A good percentage of the bus riding population from those neighborhoods made hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and lived in million dollar houses. The reason they (ehem me) took the bus was because 1. That's what you were supposed to do, 2. It took less thought and effort in the morning than driving a car and looking for parking, and 3. It was better for the environment. I always thought that among the tech community in Seattle bus was up at the top, near helicopter (you think I joke about this form of transportation).

But in Miami it always felt like only the lower classes took the bus.

It definitely depends on the bus line, too. My husband works in the U District (we live in Shoreline); his bus route is usually very decent, mostly students, university faculty, or other working professionals. However, a route like the E Line (formerly 358) down Aurora is full of...um... more interesting folk. Lol.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2015, 11:55:56 AM »
I was surprised to only see one person mention crime.  That is the real reason for everything listed.  The more money a person has, the more they can insulate themselves from crime.  Generally, the more expensive forms of transportation are safer and the cheaper transportation is less safe.  For example, I've never had anyone attack me and/or my car while driving it, but I've certainly had people assault me while cycling and one of my friends got assaulted while we were walking.  I've also had druggies beg me for money on the commuter train, even while he stood right under the "NO PANHANDLING" sign.  The cheaper transportation is, the higher the crime rate or crime exposure may be.  That is what makes it low class.

Syonyk

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2015, 02:23:27 PM »
It could be different in Australia, but in the US, you can get a DUI on a bike the same as in a car.  There's no differentiation on the books.  Be sure to check your local laws before drinking and cycling.  :)

You can usually get a DUI on a bicycle, but they're much more self limiting - if you're too drunk to bike, you can't get on one and get it going.  On the flip side, if you can get on and get moving, it's fairly easy to keep upright and in a somewhat straight line (plus, bicycles normally weave a little bit anyway).

The DUI-mobile of choice varies depending on the area.  In a lot of other places, it's a 50cc scooter (usually doesn't require a license) - an adult on a gutless wonder scooter probably is there because of DUIs.

In any case, I'm fairly certain you can't be banned from bicycling - even if you lose your license, a license is not required to ride a bicycle, so it's a valid method of transportation if you've lost your license.

1.  Kudos for being an activist.  E-bikes are probably actually MORE efficient than a straight pedal bike if considering the financial/environmental cost of the extra food.

There's evidence of that, yes.  If you're in a low carbon electricity area, absolutely.  Food production in the US is absurd.  And while you've got some energy invested in the bike/motor/battery, the amount of material involved is radically less than EVs.  I've got a ~7lb motor (it is permanent magnet, so probably some rare earths), and a ~500WH LiFePO4 battery.  So, 170 of my batteries makes up a Tesla battery pack (in terms of capacity).  I have a 15-20 mile range on significant motor assist, and could trivially bump that up with a larger pack if I needed to (or if I were hauling more weight, like a cargo bike).  The efficiency of a bicycle is insane, and ebikes keep that insane efficiency.

Though, as one of my pure-pedal-bike coworkers pointed out, the cost of extra food only matters if you're not trying to burn excess off.  An awful lot of people could commute for many, many months on the excess stored fat without needing to consume any extra food.

Down the road, I may get involved in building my own variety of ebike (both commuter and cargo) - I've learned a lot about what works and what fails, and while mine would be expensive, they'd also be quite reliable, and I could undercut the full custom ebikes by a good margin (using off the shelf parts instead of custom designing a frame).

Quote
2.  Probably the biggest issues with knee/hip pain are improper bike fit (I'd say 90% of cyclists I see have their seat WAY too low), and inadequate low gearing.

Likely, though it depends on the nature of the injury.  I view any transition off a car as a huge win for everyone involved, so I'd rather see people on ebikes than in EVs. :)  Most people think I'm nuts for biking in the rain, and I think they're nuts for sitting in traffic in the rain when there are perfectly clear bike lanes, so it works out.

gimp

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2015, 03:01:39 PM »
Anyone selling a Lear jet?

seattleite

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2015, 08:29:41 PM »
Anyone selling a Lear jet?

Used jets are surprisingly cheap to buy, here's a 1984 Learjet 25G for only $385,000: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Jet/1984/Learjet/25G/1375473.html

The problem with the older jets is that they eat fuel. It would cost several thousand dollars an hour to operate, just in fuel, not to mention the pool of money you'll need to save for your annual and 100 hour inspections. And the engine is probably well past TBO so you'll need to think about replacing them for a few million dollars in a couple years. You'll need to do yearly training that probably costs around $10,000 and I believe that it requires a second pilot so you'll need to figure how to budget for that. And insurance is probably tens of thousands of dollars if you can even get it. I'm probably missing some other major costs. Jet's aren't cheap to operate. Older jets are even worse.

Hmmm, I guess a Lear 25 isn't very mustachian. :-(

Syonyk

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2015, 08:34:37 PM »
++

Doesn't mean I don't want some time in an old Lear 23 or something...

gimp

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2015, 10:31:38 PM »
Okay. Anyone selling a two-seater cessna?

Syonyk

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2015, 10:35:46 PM »
You should be able to get a good condition 150 or 152 for $15k-$20k.

gimp

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Re: Low-Class Transportation?
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2015, 10:38:01 PM »
Yes, I can. The problem is that usually they need a pretty big rebuild and refurb, due to the hours spent in the air as well as age. Not only that, but if you're doing a refurb, may as well add radios etc that probably aren't in there. A good radio + headsets + navigation + etc etc electronics unit is not cheap. As far as I could tell, the cheapest legit way to go is about $30k where I live.

I could split one with my friends, though... man, that'd be fun.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!