Author Topic: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase  (Read 4088 times)

RebeccaR

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Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« on: June 24, 2015, 11:24:56 PM »
Let me start by saying that if it was just me, my husband, our 3-year-old and 10-month-old in our household, we'd have a 2,300-square-foot house (max), and this post wouldn't be necessary.

However, my 80-year-old mother, who has been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder by two licensed psychologists, lives with us out of financial necessity (hers, not ours). I am her only child, and she is an only child, so I am her only family. So please, please think about how much space you would need to live with your mother (or mother-in-law) and still keep a couple shreds of your sanity intact before you judge me for what is undoubtedly a less-than-Mustachian-ideal proposition that I'm considering.

A few details about us - both 40 years old, both well-paying jobs, about $275k in retirement savings (should be higher, but have spent $150k during the past 12 years on OOP medical costs that are hopefully winding down), drive late 90s/early 2000s vehicles that were both bought used with cash, no other credit card debit aside from the last $6k of that $150k, put enough into our 401ks to get the maximum company matches. My husband's company also has a pension plan. We also plan to down-size our house in our early to mid-60s and have some money for the stash from that, too.

We have 2 rental properties: a small one that is meant to be a source of kids' college fund money that we bought for $50k about 5 years ago, is worth about double that now, and brings in enough rent each month to cover 2 months of costs. The housing market in our area is still recovering and has a fair amount of headroom to go. We have a good tenant in there who wants to stay for a while, so we'll probably hang on to it for at least a few more years before cashing it out. The second rental is a former personal residence, with a plan of selling in about 2 years to pay off our existing mortgage. It cash flows about $750 above the monthly expenses. I love real estate and have watched the market closely since I was about 20.

We used to live in a 3,800 square foot house. (Remember, my mother! Our sanity!) When my daughter was born, I wanted to have the option to become a SAHM at some point. We didn't see a way to get the house paid off relatively quickly (3-5 years) to do that, so we downsized to about 3,000 square feet. Then we were unexpectedly blessed with our son, and while 3,000 sq ft sounds like a lot of space, it's not given our family dynamics, and we're short one bedroom now. We're planning for the kids to share a room for a while, but that obviously won't work forever.

I don't regret buying our existing house, because we paid $312k for it 2 years ago, and our neighbors across the street just sold their house (same floorplan, very similar upgrades) a couple months ago for $387k. So it was a good buy in that respect.

There's a house I've been keeping an eye on that has a great layout for our situation. It's back to 3,800 square feet, but about 800 of that is an in-law suite that is set up in a way that would give my mom more privacy, which she has said she would like, and give us a little bit of much-needed separation from her. (Right now all of our bedroom doors are within 4 feet of each other, and her living space is the living/dining room that is smack in the middle of the house.)

The house I'm watching also has one additional bedroom, a better yard for the kiddos, it would cut my husband's commute from 20 minutes to 10 (I work from home), it's walking distance to grocery shopping and other basic necessities, it's in an excellent neighborhood with the highest rated schools, close to 2 major freeways, etc. It will have excellent resale potential, even 20 years from now.

It needs a cosmetic overhaul, although I don't feel like we'd have to do most of that immediately other than a pool fence for safety reasons. And we're open to doing as much of the work ourselves as we can, for the obvious financial savings and also to help instill the importance of sweat equity and handyman skills in the kiddos.

I'm thinking of offering $400k, it needs about $50k in work (although non-Mustachians would probably spend $100k easily), and would probably be able to re-sell for $500k in a year, not that we would plan to sell since we see this as being our long-term house. That offer price is about 10% less than list, so I'm not sure the buyers would even go for it. And I should say (don't shoot me, please!) that we'd probably have to take a temporary loan against one of our 401ks to cover some of the down payment/closing costs, since we don't have a ton of cash on hand because we've been working hard toward paying off the credit cards this past year. We'd re-pay the 401k once our current house sells.

If our large rental is able to be sold for $600k in 2 years, we'd have about $40k left over after paying off all mortgages and the $50k in renovations of the house we're considering. If it only sells for $500k, we'd still be about $60k in debt, and it would probably take us another 2 years to pay that off. Obviously, a crystal ball would come in handy here, but alas that's not available. We're not considering selling that property now because we have tenants in there with a lease until early 2017, and because it wouldn't sell for those numbers right now. If we stay put, selling the large rental at $500k in 2 years, we'd have about $80k left over after paying off all mortgages, and I'd probably be fairly comfortable with me staying home at that point.

A couple of other considerations - 1) My husband is a very easygoing, laid back guy, but being in close quarters with my mom is starting to get on even his nerves. I want him to have his sanity. 2) If we do this, it will probably delay me staying home for at least a couple more years. But living in a home where it's easier for the kiddos to be out playing in the yard and have room to do things like plant a garden with them, a shorter commute for my husband, and walking distance to grocery shopping and other basics may be worth it. 3) It's entirely possible my mother may be with us another 10 years or more - her parents lived to their mid-80s, and while she's on common meds (high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes), she hasn't had any major health incidents. 4) When she's no longer with us, the in-law suite could possibly be used for my in-laws, who are about 15 years younger than my mom, and even down the road by our kiddos when they are grown if they want to stay with us while saving up for a house of their own.

If you're still sticking with this, thank you for reading this far. Let me know what you think from a financial perspective, and again, please be gentle given all the circumstances.

Goldielocks

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 11:30:58 PM »
Hi, your post is a bit long, so I did not read it all closely.

A couple of thoughts / comments:

1) can you find a home with a secondary suite, carriage or lane house, or other detatched "room" for your mom?  (underline detached, or at least a separate entrance).  What about side by side row houses?   I think a bit more separation and smaller home(s) would suit better if this were me, than sharing a single, oversize residence with a lot of upkeep.  (You would pay for both). 

2) shorter commutes are ALWAYs good.

3) don't buy if you can't be happy putting off renovations until you are FIRE and have more money than you need.

Okay,  I won't be unfeeling and suggest a group home for mom, while you close by but not together...  I will assume you have your reasons...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 11:32:50 PM by goldielocks »

RebeccaR

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 12:09:50 AM »
@goldielocks - Thanks for your reply. Those are good questions.

1) This home has what is essentially a secondary suite (minus the kitchen, which we're fine with sharing). The area where we live doesn't have row houses. There are a couple of neighborhoods with semi-detatched houses, but they're adjacent to very large power lines (affect resale negatively) and don't have any yards at all, and we'd like a yard for our kiddos. The houses in our area that have detatched rooms/guest houses on the property are more expensive - typically $600k or more.

Group home - They generally run $2,000-$4,000 per month (depending on whether medical care is needed or not and whether/how many meals are supplied), so it's much less expensive for her to be with us. Even if cost wasn't a factor, which would make this whole house decision easy, she absolutely would not go willingly into a group home. If her health ever gets to a point where it is dangerous for her to live with us (for example, if she develops dementia and keeps turning on the stove, forgetting, and catching it on fire when we're not home), we'd need to move her unwillingly or not, but for now it's not at a point where we're ready to go down that path and all the trauma it would involve.

Thanks again for the feedback - it is helpful!

waffle

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 08:26:43 AM »
It doesn't sound like financially it is the most optimal setup, but it sounds like it is doable. I say if you've combed your area for other possibilities that meet your needs/wants and there aren't any that are better financially then go for it.

PseudoStache

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 09:01:14 AM »
I'm not going to get into the financial nitty gritty, but can speak from experience on this specific topic.

Here's our story:

Parents owned a 3800 SqFt. home that they lived in by themselves.  Wife and I lived by ourselves in an apartment.
Father's health requires constant supervision so we decided to consolidate homes.
Purchased a 4-bed 2600 SqFt. home for the four of us with "room to grow."
Sharing living spaces was VERY frustrating with just the four of us.... then we had our first child.  Was NOT going to happen.
And soon enough we were planning for the second kid.... so we had to move.

So now we all live in a 5300 SqFt monstrosity that gives us the ability to feel like we are living separately when we need our family "space," but also spend a ton of quality time together as an extended family under one roof.

I'll tell you that even though most people on here will berate me for this choice, it is one of the smartest decisions we've made emotionally and financially.  Almost every day my wife and I sit on our couch upstairs smiling with just "our family," enjoying our time together, and then we all go downstairs and have dinner with my parents.  My kids are able to kiss my parents good night, every night, and having my dad able to see his grand kids is one of the reasons why I think he's still with us.

I love being able to be able to take care of my folks, but still have the separation.

Oh and it doesn't hurt that from the time we started building the home to the time it was completed, we also built over $100K in equity

I appreciate how you are trying to calculate the financial benefit down to the dollar, but my sanity was definitely worth the extra 2700 SqFt that I paid for :)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 09:04:25 AM by PseudoStache »

RebeccaR

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 09:37:27 AM »
@waffle - Thank you for your reply! You're correct that from a financial standpoint, it is doable. With both of us working, we could pay the mortgage on all 3 properties ourselves if we had to, still be able to cover our other expenses and keep contributing to our 401ks. (We wouldn't like it, but we could do it.) The thing that possibly becomes less doable is me staying home in about 2 years. So I know it's all a trade-off that I need to figure out.

@PseudoStache - I really appreciate you sharing your story. It is great to hear from someone else who is in this same situation, because there don't seem to be many of us out there who already had parents living with us before our children were born. I think the house we're considering would give us exactly what you describe - our own family "space" while still being under one roof and the three generations having the ability to spend quality time together every day.

My biggest concern about it is that I don't want to feel "trapped", that I *have* to work. That's why we left our bigger house in the first place - it had started to feel like an albatross around my neck. I like having options.

Thanks again for all the feedback. It is helping me to sort through the various angles of it.

DoubleDown

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015, 09:41:56 AM »
Call me heartless, but I would not have my BPD mother or MIL (I'll call her grandma) live with me and my young children. As much as you want to help (and that's noble), I think it's important to consider the impact to the rest of the family, particularly your kids.

I see grandma's instability creating too much difficulty for your own family, and clearly creating a financial hardship that would not otherwise exist. I think it will be unsustainable, and you'll end up having to eventually move her out but only after a great deal of trauma has been inflicted. If grandma is financially indigent, I would let the social compact take care of her. That is, let whatever government programs exist find adequate housing, food, medical care, etc. The family can visit her a lot, take her out, help with her affairs, and invite her over as long as it's healthy for everyone. But living with us? No way.

WoodsRun

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 10:20:31 AM »
Sounds like you're in pretty heatlthy shape financially considering your retirement accounts and your really good cash-flow rentals. Looking for that bigger home is a great idea in my opinion. You say you left the bigger house because you don't want to be 'trapped' working for longer than you need to, but think of how much you would feel 'trapped' in a house you think is too small for your family and your mother (and eventually your in-laws).

I would think of it as healthy for your marriage too, think of the saved sanity for your husband and yourself. Definitely worth the higher cost.

And you mentioned that your in-laws will probably move in a few years down the line so you will get a lot of use out of this bigger house. Think of this house as a savings compared to moving your mom or in-laws to some sort of nursing home.

I would not think about the re-sale value of the bigger house if you plan on staying there for a long time. The re-sale value is irrelevant.

Sibley

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2015, 11:30:46 AM »
As someone who's likely facing this issue in the future, it sounds like you've really thought it out. If this is the best, most workable house you've found (financially and functionally), then go for it.

If that rental is such a cash cow, I'd hang onto it as long as it does so and use the income to hammer away at the mortgage(s).

cripzychiken

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2015, 12:25:45 PM »
Ok, to cover your current real estate empire:

1) Rental 1, $100k, cash cow
2) Rental 2, 500k, +$750/month (could be worth 600k in 2 years)
3) Current house - $385

What you current plan is:

Buy house 4 ($400k) for better living situation - use 401k for down payment
Sell House 3, repay 401k loan.

In 2+ years, Sell Rental 2 to clear out mortgage on house 4 (now main residence).

Live happily ever after with no debt, no mortgage, 1 rental house, and grandma tucked away on the other side of the house.


If you can carry all 4 houses for a few months, and are willing to delay all upgrades/fixes to house 4 (minus the pool fence), I'd say its worth it.  The mental health upgrade of space has a value, you've already said that your DH is showing the effects of it.  The main concern I would have is holding both house 3 and 4, so if you can swing that for a few months, then I'd do the house upgrade.


theSchmett

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2015, 12:31:44 PM »
Sorry if this is blunt, but you are increasing your space 1500sqft for one person, 200 square feet larger than my admittedly modest 1300sqft home for four of us, and in a few years a dog.

Are you using these #'s as specific to certain homes or are they what you are going to go look for? I can understand if homes in your area are larger than in my area and that is the total sqft on the particular situations. But as this board is what it is, I might look for a smaller home that is better laid out to give everyone the space they need.

I hope to convert my 550sqft detached garage (I know, its enormous) into living space someday, potentially for a family member should the need arise. You might not be in an area with detached garages or accessory dwellings but it seems like it may be a good fit, and allow you to keep your total sqft down. Although it will come with extra infrastructure needs, a second furnace, etc...

cripes7

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 01:59:57 PM »
Beyond this would be a great house, etc, etc, it's still $100k more, and requires you to work longer than you want. How much will you love that house 2 years from now, if things turn economically and you can't sell your rental house? Or how will you feel about your mother when you're tired from work, kids need you, and you're frazzled because you're stuck financially? Resentful? Angry?
I think I would look seriously at my current house and see if there's room to create an in-law suite. Convert a garage? It would be cheaper to hire an architect to look at your house and see if it's feasible, then to put off your dreams for several years because of your mom's situation. Especially if you really want to be home while your kids are small. I raised 5 kids in a 2600 ft house, it's very doable with a good plan.  If it's not feasible, and the other house is worth it, great, do it.

Jack

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 02:23:43 PM »
Having an in-law suite is a great plan, but can't you find one in less-oversized house? IMO, you should be aiming for 400-600 ft^2 for your mom (800 ft^2 max) and 1500-2000 ft^2 for you, husband and kids.

Otherwise, can you rent a cheap studio apartment for your mom (not a group home, just a regular apartment)?

AZDude

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2015, 02:53:36 PM »
I feel terrible for suggesting this, but my own experience  is talking here. Are you sure you want to spend tens of thousands of dollars and disrupt your lives just so your mentally ill M/MIL can live with you for a few years? It might be better to find an assisted living facility nearby and at least check it out. She would then have her privacy and her own life, and you could visit as often as you like.

And there is no way that even 15 years of assisted living would cost you $400K.



Dicey

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2015, 12:54:06 AM »
DH and I are in the same kind of boat...We were house shopping after our marriage in 2012 and had selected a hideous little 1600sf complete fixer. Three weeks after saying "I do", his dad passed away and we realized his mom had what turned out to be Alzheimer's. We scrapped our plans and started searching for something bigger. Since his son still lives at home, goes to city college and helps out with his grandma, we knew we needed 4 bedrooms. Our list was simple, 1 story, 4 bedrooms that didn't touch, no pool, a gas stove and reasonably close to work. We ended up with a beautiful 2650 sf clown house that is three and a half blocks from DH's work. It cost twice what the house we were going to buy was. It was a short sale and it took eight long months to close. And now our property taxes are 12k/year, sigh.

When we first started looking, we knew little about Alzheimer's. We actually looked at a couple of places with MIL units, which in hindsight would have been a disaster. Ditto for rooms off by themselves or with outside or garage access. It's damn hard living with a MIL with Alzheimer's who has no idea who I am or what happened to her son's first wife. (She died, but MIL doesn't remember that.) DH and my bonus kid are great, but living in an OMG-I-can't-believe-I-live-in-such-a-lovely-home really, really helps.

My vote is to buy whatever home will help you live through this experience with your sanity intact. Provided that it won't ruin you financially, which does not look to be the case. What you are doing is fucking hard. Having a lovely home that suits your needs is pretty much a necessity in my book.

RebeccaR

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Re: Looking for feedback on prospective house purchase
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 12:41:58 AM »
I just wanted to come back and post an update on what I/we* decided...

First of all, thank you all for your replies. They were very thought-provoking and gave me a lot of good perspective, which ultimately helped enormously with the decision.

What we decided is to stay put for now. From a layout and location perspective, the other house is great. But every time I thought about the costs of making the move and making the updates that are needed (or the stress of living in the house as-is, knowing we'd need to do major updates at some point), I could feel my breath tighten and my stomach get a knot. Plus it felt like there are a couple of major potential uncertainties - we never assume my husband's job is going to be there tomorrow (he's a software engineer, and layoffs happen regularly in that profession), and my mom's health could take a sudden decline that would require me to stay home and care for her.

We feel like we'll be in a place with more clarity in a couple of years. Hopefully we'll be able to sell the large rental at that point, so we'll know exactly how much money we're getting out of it. We'll only have day care costs for 1 kiddo at that point, and we should have a sizable chunk of savings built back up, too (in addition to our retirement savings). Even though it's likely that housing will cost more in our area at that point, the house I had my eye on likely won't be on the market, and we may not be able to get another house like that, it just feels better to me to have some of those other things in place.

Even if we wind up staying where we're at, I think we can make some relatively simple changes if necessary to make it work. I've found peace in that idea. So the verdict is to stick with the original plan of making it possible for me to stay home in a couple of years.

Thanks again for all the feedback and helping me think it through.

* While my husband did originally vote to move, he wasn't ever thrilled with the idea of literally moving all of our stuff again, or with the idea of having to do all the work the house required. So even though our current living arrangement's proximity to my mom stresses him out a bit, he is 100% okay with the decision to stay put.

Rebecca