Author Topic: Long-term partner with lots of debt  (Read 10195 times)

morninglightmountain

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Long-term partner with lots of debt
« on: June 04, 2017, 07:33:43 PM »
Hey guys,

I've always been naturally thrifty, and after having learned about FIRE 6 months or so ago, I've gotten off to a good start.  Well, I've cut my spending a little, but got a $64K raise (pre-tax of course).  Anyways, I should be able to FIRE in my mid to late 30s. 

The hitch: my long-term girlfriend has about $80K from an ill-chosen masters degree and about 10K in credit card debt.  She isn't too addicted to consumerism, and actually hates conspicuous consumption, but is just not very good with money.  If we get married, I definitely will handle the finances, but has this arrangement worked for other mustachians?   If we combine our finances, my net worth will get dragged down, but if we don't, it might be a tad awkward to FIRE with her needing to work another 30 years...

lizzigee

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2017, 08:11:49 PM »
To me, intent matters a lot. Is she trying to get rid of the credit card debt with any urgency, and does she have a plan for getting rid of the student loan apart from paying the minimum for decades? And congrats on the raise, that's an awesome amount!

pbkmaine

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2017, 08:22:05 PM »
The danger with you in charge of the money is that it could develop into a kind of parent-child relationship, which can cause resentment on both sides. It's so much better if you are equals with common goals, pulling together.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2017, 08:26:24 PM »
Very few people enter marriage on an equal footing. 80k of debt is not that much in the grand scheme of things. But as lizzigee pointed out, intentions (and demonstrated effort) matter.

Big in Japan

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2017, 08:36:34 PM »
The danger with you in charge of the money is that it could develop into a kind of parent-child relationship, which can cause resentment on both sides. It's so much better if you are equals with common goals, pulling together.

This is wise. Morninglight, you'll have to be ready to compromise on your goals for the future to create a unified vision with your spouse. It's an important conversation to have now, if you're serious about getting married. Ask her about what she wants, and listen.

Also, take a step back. If you just got a 64k raise and cut your expenses, surely you could pay off her debts in under 3 years. In the big picture, this barely pushes back your FIRE date. If she's not unequivocally worth that in your mind, then either your priorities are out of whack or you aren't right for each other. Why fire at 35 instead of 38 if you don't get to spend that time with her?

morninglightmountain

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2017, 09:21:18 PM »
The danger with you in charge of the money is that it could develop into a kind of parent-child relationship, which can cause resentment on both sides. It's so much better if you are equals with common goals, pulling together.

This is wise. Morninglight, you'll have to be ready to compromise on your goals for the future to create a unified vision with your spouse. It's an important conversation to have now, if you're serious about getting married. Ask her about what she wants, and listen.

Also, take a step back. If you just got a 64k raise and cut your expenses, surely you could pay off her debts in under 3 years. In the big picture, this barely pushes back your FIRE date. If she's not unequivocally worth that in your mind, then either your priorities are out of whack or you aren't right for each other. Why fire at 35 instead of 38 if you don't get to spend that time with her?

Thanks.  I've talked to her a bit about financial independence, but I don't think she sees it as a realistic goal.  However, in the past week, she found out that she's getting a new new job/career path and will be making 60K instead of 44K so she's on the upswing too and will be able to put a serious dent in her debt.  I agree that FIRE makes much more sense as a unified vision.  With her new job lined up, I think she'll be more receptive to the idea.

She has told me in the past that she wouldn't want me paying her debt, but if we do get married and combine finances, it should just come down to basic math.  If we end up buying a house in the near future, we really should be making extra payments to the student debt instead of the mortgage (assuming mortgage rate ~4%). 

morninglightmountain

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2017, 09:25:13 PM »
The danger with you in charge of the money is that it could develop into a kind of parent-child relationship, which can cause resentment on both sides. It's so much better if you are equals with common goals, pulling together.

True, I have to be careful with this. I can be very frustrated by basic mistakes (e.g. signing up for a airline credit card for the bonus but then not paying off the monthly balance immediately), and naturally come off as condescending about this sort of thing.

Anyways, I'm thankful that she's not materialistic, at least no more than I am. 

PDXTabs

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2017, 11:13:48 PM »
What sort of interest rates are we talking about? How much cash do you have? If I had a GF that I wanted to stay with, and she had $10K in credit card debt, I would be very willing to loan her $10K at 4-5% so that she could pay it off and I could get a reasonable and fairly risk free return on my money.

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 05:56:40 AM »
Agree- that you need to have hard conversations on this now and also don't turn it into a parent-child thing.  My bff paid off 30k of a spouses debt upon marriage, well spouse never really changed and never really get on board, reverted to old ways and started to rack up purchases once again. So they are now divorced after a few years where they always argued about money and financial goals.  See what she does with the extra pay raise.  Then see if you can live with that.  Otherwise it's money down the drain.

ol1970

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 06:30:43 AM »
Your question hit close to home as I went through a similar situation a while back so I felt compelled to comment.  I dated a woman that I cared for quite a bit, but was a hot mess financially.  Long story, but the basics were a worse debt to income ratio, a severe income problem with no motivation to ($15k per year doing part time work wtf!), and a complete lack of financial understanding.  Like your gal though she was not materialistic or a "spender".  Once she had come clean about the true state of her finances we had some serious conversations.  I attempted to approach the situation as a teacher and I gave her a couple of books to read and blog articles that were appropriate, but not jamming it down her throat at every turn.  I helped her set a budget and make some modest goals to achieve to get her excited and enthusiastic about being on the right path and explained clearly that they were important so that we could be together.  Over the course of a year they were 80% ignored, I did not badger her because I didn't want to be her dad...relationships shouldn't be that hard, if they are move on.  In the end I was extremely disappointed, but I knew what I had to do.  You don't want to be the one doing all the heavy lifting in a relationship, your partner should bring something to the table!

In your case, it sounds as if there is a much brighter future!  I could totally see being willing to help her with the debt if she shows the same hair on fire drive to eradicate debt that you have.  Honestly, having an amazing loving partner/spouse is way more important than FIRE.  I would suggest sitting down and making a reasonable plan where you can both feel happy and not stressed out.  If its clear over time she's not on board, then its time to pull the plug but definitely not yet.  Good luck!

Quint

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 07:20:54 AM »
I helped my wife start paying off her cc debt while we were engaged, actually she just made the final payment in March.  We talked about it before our engagement, she is not as into finances as I am and she really didn't think she'd ever be able to pay it off so making minimum payments or perhaps a little more was all she had been doing.  It was (only?) about $20k but I asked her to trust me that it could be done and when the cc balances started dropping she was addicted to finding ways to pay it off even sooner.  There was also the added benefit of her realizing that early retirement actually is possible and not just something I daydream about.

That being said I agree with lizzigee and pbkmaine, there needs to be a conversation about finances and also FIRE itself and see if you are both working towards the same goals.

Louisville

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 08:12:04 AM »
MorningLightMountain

Hmm... Maybe your choice of name here is a red flag you should be heeding. Are you super controlling? Do you lack empathy? Just keep an eye on that when dealing with your significant other.
Background for those who may not know: MorningLightMountain is a fictional alien entity that is psychologically unable to tolerate the very existence of any other living thing.

Noodle

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2017, 09:47:59 AM »
Every marriage involves partners with baggage. For some people, it's financial--debt, child support, medical expenses, elderly parents who require care--for other people it's emotional, or time commitments, or shortcomings in skills (cleaning, communication, etc). I think successful marriages tend to involve people who do their best to handle their own baggage and have loving tolerance (with boundaries!) for their partner's baggage. Do you think that's true of your SO? Is it true of you (and are you being honest and appreciative about the baggage you're bringing in that she has to deal with?)

You say your SO "isn't good with money" and that "you would handle the finances." Do you mean that your partner isn't very detail-oriented, and would love to have someone else take over things like paying bills and managing bank accounts, or that you don't think she makes good decisions, so you would be setting the financial course for the household? Choice A is a great example of a partnership being stronger together, Choice B is setting you up for a life of power struggles. Would you be able to handle the idea that sometimes your SO will want to spend the household money on something that you consider just plain dumb, and sometimes she will get the final vote because she is an equal partner and gets to have her way some of the time?

Digital Dogma

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2017, 10:04:53 AM »
MorningLightMountain

Hmm... Maybe your choice of name here is a red flag you should be heeding. Are you super controlling? Do you lack empathy? Just keep an eye on that when dealing with your significant other.
Background for those who may not know: MorningLightMountain is a fictional alien entity that is psychologically unable to tolerate the very existence of any other living thing.

I think I just found a new series to read :)

Laura33

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2017, 11:25:12 AM »
I can be very frustrated by basic mistakes (e.g. signing up for a airline credit card for the bonus but then not paying off the monthly balance immediately), and naturally come off as condescending about this sort of thing.

FWIW, I would work on the bolded bit.  Because (a) it's not "natural" for everyone to respond that way, and (b) even if this is a natural response for you, it's worth fixing, because this will be far more destructive to any long-term relationship than marginal competence with money. 

I think we all have things that come naturally to us.  And the more intuitive something is to us, the easier it is to get impatient, frustrated, and condescending when dealing with someone who either doesn't get it as easily or doesn't seem to care as much.  [Ask me how I know]

But we also all have weak spots -- we all have areas in which things do NOT come as easily to us as they do to others.  And just imagine a world in which every time you are slow on the uptake, people roll their eyes and treat you like an idiot.  How fun is that? 

More to the point:  would you really want to hitch yourself to someone whose response to your weaknesses is to make you feel stupid?  Is that someone who makes you feel like it's safe to admit to being an imperfect human?  To try something scary and new because you know they are going to catch you if you fall?  Most people who are worth being with will not put up with condescension in perpetuity.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2017, 12:00:34 PM »
I'd worry about the credit card debt as that only comes from overspending.  The student debt is funny... while it may have been a dumb idea, lots of "smart" people she was supposed to listen to probably told her it was a good long term idea to do. If she did it for that reason that is at least an intent compatible with the Mustachismo way. 

but, uhg relationships require so much talking and communication.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2017, 12:26:08 PM »
So I was that girlfriend with 100k in student debt, a job that paid pennies, and a future husband who had his financial house in order (great paying job, saving for retirement, etc). I also was not materialistic at all but I was not very financially savvy (I didn’t even have a credit card when I met my husband and then moved in with him). We manage our finances as a joint endeavor, which is why only 5 years after they went into repayment, my loans were gone. Here is what worked for us:

1.   My husband HELPED me – He told me I needed to start earning credit. He helped me pick a credit card to apply for and was clear that it had to be paid off in full every month. He explained why (interest!). He encouraged me to tell him immediately if I thought I couldn’t pay off the balance so he could help me to avoid interest. He encouraged me to save 2% in my employer retirement plan to get the match and explained why. He did this all without being a jerk or acting like I was an idiot for not knowing this stuff.
2.   We managed my loans like they were a joint responsibility – When we moved in, my husband willingly and without complaint took over the bulk of our living expenses (the rent, etc). I helped by paying utilities and for some groceries, but he covered 2/3 of it. This was done so I could throw everything I had at the loans to try to get them down. I kept up my end of the deal and put as much as I could towards my loans every month.
3.   We set goals and talk about them ALOT – To this day my husband and I set joint financial goals for our family. At first it was goals like “pay down LBD’s loan to X, pay for wedding without cc debt, save 10k in efund.” Now that the loans are gone, our goals revolve around maxing retirement accounts, saving for kids’ college funds, and taxable investing. But every year in January we sit down and set goals (write them out), and we routinely discuss their progress. We set up expectations for how to achieve them in advance (“we’ll use your bonus to max the IRAs, and the tax refund for the baby’s 592”) so we are both on the same page on how money should be spent. If we hit all our goals before years end, we add new ones.
4.   We foster complete transparency with expenses – We talk about money and expenses all the time as a matter of habit. Very few things are purchased without the input from the other. If I want to buy some new kitchen stuff from amazon, I tell him. If he needs to go get an oil change for his car, he tells me. It’s not like we are reporting expenses and looking for permission – it’s just a very casual exchange. As a result, we are both always up to date on who is spending what.

Ironically, my experience paying off my loans and seeing how awesome it made me feel turned me into the financial buff in the family. I am now even more financially savvy than my husband and I am the one who tends to take the lead directing our investing decisions and financial goals. I was the one who introduced my husband to FIRE and got him excited about the concept. So, the moral of the story is, you absolutely can have joint finances and a very healthy and successful relationship with someone who has debt and is financially naïve. The key pieces are whether or not she really wants to get her finances under control, and how you two go about it (with transparency, respect, and mutual assistance).

Rosy

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2017, 12:50:02 PM »
Very few people enter marriage on an equal footing. 80k of debt is not that much in the grand scheme of things. But as lizzigee pointed out, intentions (and demonstrated effort) matter.

^^^ this ^^^ Your fortunes could go south at any time and hers take off like a rocket ship. You know sickness and health, in good times and in bad times:) There will be plenty of ups and downs over time in your life together.
It appears that now you have physical proof that her fortunes are improving as well. 
That 10K can drop off within less than one year, now that she has more monthly income - no problem at all.

The 80K student debt - you would do well to have "the talk" about money and your mutual goals on an ongoing basis. Develop a pay off plan together and encourage her along the way.
It is possible, that she has been feeling a bit overwhelmed, looking at 90K debt and not seeing an end in sight for a long, long time. When in reality, like it was pointed out already - this can be tackled in short order.
There are so many ways to pay this off - 4 years 10K each?:)

You know I don't see any bad money habits or attitudes here, consider yourself lucky and stand together. Instead of hiccupping about 80K student debt - in the big scheme of things, given your age and the fact that both of your careers are just taking off ...

Oh wow - love what little_brown_dog just posted - couldn't have explained any better about what I meant to tell you:)

letthelightin

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2017, 01:16:04 PM »
I can be very frustrated by basic mistakes (e.g. signing up for a airline credit card for the bonus but then not paying off the monthly balance immediately), and naturally come off as condescending about this sort of thing.

FWIW, I would work on the bolded bit.  Because (a) it's not "natural" for everyone to respond that way, and (b) even if this is a natural response for you, it's worth fixing, because this will be far more destructive to any long-term relationship than marginal competence with money. 

I think we all have things that come naturally to us.  And the more intuitive something is to us, the easier it is to get impatient, frustrated, and condescending when dealing with someone who either doesn't get it as easily or doesn't seem to care as much.  [Ask me how I know]

But we also all have weak spots -- we all have areas in which things do NOT come as easily to us as they do to others.  And just imagine a world in which every time you are slow on the uptake, people roll their eyes and treat you like an idiot.  How fun is that? 

More to the point:  would you really want to hitch yourself to someone whose response to your weaknesses is to make you feel stupid?  Is that someone who makes you feel like it's safe to admit to being an imperfect human?  To try something scary and new because you know they are going to catch you if you fall?  Most people who are worth being with will not put up with condescension in perpetuity.

Thank you for posting this! I've noticed that a lot of your comments really speak to me (including this one). Just wanted you to know that I appreciate your thoughtful posts!

neil

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2017, 02:35:22 PM »
I am in a similar situation.  Yes, the choice of degree was a big difference (I make double my SO's income) but the bigger issue was my choice to start my professional career at 22 rather than 29, and I am three years older at 37.  She ended up with ~$110K in debt from getting a PhD (not entirely useless but limited upside) and letting them run up a bit as she had difficulty finding full employment.  I don't have full details, but I would guess her saving rate to be in the 20% range (where 50%+ is really needed to blow that loan away in 2-3 years rather than 10) and certainly some amount of money is frivolously spent (by Mustachian standards).

For many reasons, she wants to keep finances separate because she feels almost embarrassed at the difference.  I am fine to do that since it really doesn't matter to me.  However, when you are married it is really combined whether you like it or not (so it's not like she can run up $250K in CC debt and I can FIRE) and all decisions should be made together anyhow.  It actually challenges me to do the right thing as a couple if we keep accounts separated while I control >100% of the family net worth.  It's not equitable and it will cause problems.

So it is important to have a few discussions about the big things before marriage (house, kids, college, career, retirement) while letting the little things go.  For instance, I got her to cave on paying off the student loans because 6% is insanity (when we met, her interest payments were about a third of my total spending) but as she pays it back, it will go into an account designed for our children's college - and if that doesn't occur, then donation.  She likes the idea of remaining responsible for the debt, but I'd rather her be liable to our future children (and build wealth in the process) than to Navient.  But right now, most of the microtransactions are her business alone.  After we get married (and probably will start fresh in 2018) I want the spending to be an open book, not because I want to criticize but because I want to understand what our future obligations might be and, ultimately, our real FIRE number.  I would like to challenge each other's spending and find good optimization points where we are both happy.  But it is a task for later.

It is not all one-sided though.  I grew up on the edge of poverty and have some extreme fears about taking care of myself.  I feel the need to be 100% self reliant and I often pay penalties to maintain that.  She opens me up to being part of the community and giving more.  It's not like this is entirely a new concept for me, but she is better than I am in this respect and as a couple I feel like I put my assets to better use than I did when I was single.  She's improved my life, my attitude and my net worth just being a part of my life than when I was alone, and certainly deserves some (financial) credit for that.  So while her loans will be the biggest check I've written in my life, I still know I personally do better thanks to her.  I try my best to explain that every time we have these discussions.

Just because you have enough to take care of yourself doesn't mean money fights can't happen.  We'll probably struggle with the inequity for awhile, but as long as we work toward honest and disclosure, an equitable spending plan (which you can control) and avoid outright criticism, I believe we can improve and evolve to a structure where we are both confident in our future.

mamagoose

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2017, 02:46:04 PM »
I had student loans, credit cards and a car payment when I met my now-husband. He proposed and I said "yes, AFTER I pay off my debts" - the thinking was I wanted to be able to stand on my own two feet before walking down the aisle. Absolutely no regrets on this, and it made me that much more motivated to slay that debt after grad school (and then later not blow the extra money on a big fancy royal wedding).

I have seen too many couples get married without opening up about debt, only to discover a few months into it that one spouse has 5 figures of student loans and no plan to pay it off, and it can feel like shackles. Even worse when the couple keeps separate finances and the debt-free spouse gets to buy all the toys they want while the other is struggling to pay their 50% of the shared expenses while also carrying the student loan burden.

If you really want this person to be your life partner, two suggestions:
1) Pay off her loans. Do it in lieu of a fancy wedding.
2) Work out a plan to pay them off BEFORE the wedding. I like this one better b/c it's shared ownership. "WE" are working together towards a debt-free marriage. Show her right now before the ring is on her finger that you care about it, that you can be the "provider" - even if that means teaching her how to provide for herself instead of writing a check to pay off her debts.

Lyngi

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2017, 03:40:00 PM »
My spouse was an extremely hard worker when we married. No debt. All good, I thought.  I finished school, got a great job.  He went to school.  Four years and 2 kids later he graduates, but doesn't get a job in the field he studied at school.  Still good, I'm making good money, he can watch the kids a bit and work on starting side gigs.  During a refinance I find we have (joint and individual CC's) $40K iin debt!!!!!   Small kids, we can get a second mortgage, roll some CC into lower interest cards and get this taken care of.  Right?  NO!  I was naive.  Over the next few years he ran up another $25K on the second.  Plus other individual cards in his name.  Cashed in the retirement account I set up in his name.  So I separated my money from his. Paid off the second.   He started with a debt repayment company, got (most) of the debt paid off.  Soon I find out he forgot something and there is a now a lien on our primary residence.  And a lovely tax bill from the debt forgiveness plan.  Yep, the hits keep coming.  So, twenty years later I have a great 401K balance and still make great money.  Divorce wasn't an option before because of the kids, and now I would have to half my retirement and probably pay alimony so divorce isn't really an option now either.  BE CAREFUL

morninglightmountain

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2017, 05:47:07 PM »
Your question hit close to home as I went through a similar situation a while back so I felt compelled to comment.  I dated a woman that I cared for quite a bit, but was a hot mess financially.  Long story, but the basics were a worse debt to income ratio, a severe income problem with no motivation to ($15k per year doing part time work wtf!), and a complete lack of financial understanding.  Like your gal though she was not materialistic or a "spender".  Once she had come clean about the true state of her finances we had some serious conversations.  I attempted to approach the situation as a teacher and I gave her a couple of books to read and blog articles that were appropriate, but not jamming it down her throat at every turn.  I helped her set a budget and make some modest goals to achieve to get her excited and enthusiastic about being on the right path and explained clearly that they were important so that we could be together.  Over the course of a year they were 80% ignored, I did not badger her because I didn't want to be her dad...relationships shouldn't be that hard, if they are move on.  In the end I was extremely disappointed, but I knew what I had to do.  You don't want to be the one doing all the heavy lifting in a relationship, your partner should bring something to the table!

In your case, it sounds as if there is a much brighter future!  I could totally see being willing to help her with the debt if she shows the same hair on fire drive to eradicate debt that you have.  Honestly, having an amazing loving partner/spouse is way more important than FIRE.  I would suggest sitting down and making a reasonable plan where you can both feel happy and not stressed out.  If its clear over time she's not on board, then its time to pull the plug but definitely not yet.  Good luck!

Thank you for sharing, I found it very helpful! Sorry it didn't work out for your relationship. 

Anyways, I'll help her set up a budget before she starts her new job, and I can then gauge to see how aggressive she is with her debt.   I agree with you about relationships being more important than FIRE - but thankfully she is motivated in general and with her career in particular, so I'm not too worried.  Unless she turns into a consumerist debt monster with her higher salary, I don't see her debt as anything that would cost us our relationship.  If she's on board with the FIRE vision, I'd be fine just paying off her high interest debt.

morninglightmountain

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2017, 05:50:16 PM »
What sort of interest rates are we talking about? How much cash do you have? If I had a GF that I wanted to stay with, and she had $10K in credit card debt, I would be very willing to loan her $10K at 4-5% so that she could pay it off and I could get a reasonable and fairly risk free return on my money.

15%+ I believe.   Interesting idea about the loan, but I think it would change the relationship in an uncomfortable way if I become her debt holder.  I won't do any sort of paying until we're married (or at least engaged), but when I do it will not be like a loan. If she wants to pay me back when she can, I won't object though.

morninglightmountain

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2017, 05:56:00 PM »
MorningLightMountain

Hmm... Maybe your choice of name here is a red flag you should be heeding. Are you super controlling? Do you lack empathy? Just keep an eye on that when dealing with your significant other.
Background for those who may not know: MorningLightMountain is a fictional alien entity that is psychologically unable to tolerate the very existence of any other living thing.

Very interesting [probing] comment.  I love Peter F Hamilton's works, and think that MLM is just a really cool character.  Ozzie is my favorite character (I'm a Paula Myo fan too), but it wouldn't work as well as a handle on here.

Anyways, I'm certainly not a sociopath but I do admit I lack empathy.  I'm not without it, but my SO has waaaaay more than me.  I see myself as the cool/logical one and her as the warm/empathic. I think [hope] that makes the relationship stronger.


morninglightmountain

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2017, 05:57:24 PM »
MorningLightMountain

Hmm... Maybe your choice of name here is a red flag you should be heeding. Are you super controlling? Do you lack empathy? Just keep an eye on that when dealing with your significant other.
Background for those who may not know: MorningLightMountain is a fictional alien entity that is psychologically unable to tolerate the very existence of any other living thing.

I think I just found a new series to read :)

You won't regret it! Pandora's Star is what got me hooked on sci-fi.

morninglightmountain

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2017, 06:13:03 PM »
Every marriage involves partners with baggage. For some people, it's financial--debt, child support, medical expenses, elderly parents who require care--for other people it's emotional, or time commitments, or shortcomings in skills (cleaning, communication, etc). I think successful marriages tend to involve people who do their best to handle their own baggage and have loving tolerance (with boundaries!) for their partner's baggage. Do you think that's true of your SO? Is it true of you (and are you being honest and appreciative about the baggage you're bringing in that she has to deal with?)

You say your SO "isn't good with money" and that "you would handle the finances." Do you mean that your partner isn't very detail-oriented, and would love to have someone else take over things like paying bills and managing bank accounts, or that you don't think she makes good decisions, so you would be setting the financial course for the household? Choice A is a great example of a partnership being stronger together, Choice B is setting you up for a life of power struggles. Would you be able to handle the idea that sometimes your SO will want to spend the household money on something that you consider just plain dumb, and sometimes she will get the final vote because she is an equal partner and gets to have her way some of the time?

It's somewhere between A and B.  It's not that she's bad with details, but I think she feels depressed about the student debt and her personality leads her to want to ignore the problem rather than facing it head on.  At least last time I broached the subject. She's made poor financial decisions (e.g. getting a travel credit card), but I think this is mostly due to wanting to run away from the problem instead of running the numbers.

Also, by "handling the finances" I mean trying to keep us aligned with our financial goals, and tracking results via Excel, not controlling purchase decisions.  I've thought about the "agreement on major purchases" idea, as well as having separate "splurge" accounts for the occasional thing... but what if we both agree if either of us makes a major non-necessary purchase (e.g. a new car or something), then that person agrees to be on the hook for working a bit longer?   Smaller splurge items ($100 here and there) would just be noise as long as we keep that to a few items per year.

RangerOne

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2017, 07:34:23 PM »
Sadly I don't think there is any way to guess at how easy it will be to budget together until you are sharing a bank account and saving for common goals. In the beginning my wife was really freaked out about not being able to save much for personal effects as I tried to funnel every sent into major budget categories.

Once we had a baby, started saving for a house and paying down debt most of that resistance went out the window. Now we generally only blow or budget together but we don't individually sabotage ourselves anymore.

The important factor is that you should have an idea of how receptive your spouse is to working towards common goals and how easily you can negotiate with them. It doesn't mean budgeting with someone else will always be easy or fun, but I knew my wife would work with me before I married her.

One thing I really like about being married is it is a truly join venture. Its nothing like splitting rent with a roommate. I kind of laugh when new couples suggest they want to keep separate accounts and maintain some autonomy. But I suppose to each their own. But when you are both drawing from the same well and tracking everything in one place it becomes much easier to figure out how to optimize the cost of living. It also lets you understand the full power of your combined incomes or how well you can survive on 1 income.

Depending on your combined income $80k may be a quick burn to get it down to a more manageable level. I can't lie I would hate the idea of inheriting that too, but it would be far from a deal breaker unless I suspected that my future spouse was a shopaholic or something.

moof

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2017, 07:49:56 AM »
Have a hard conversation about money, and do it before a ring is involved.

My wife and I hitched up and she had a few thousand in credit card debt, not the league you are talking about.  She viewed it as her responsibility to finish paying off.  I objected, and won.  She was aghast, and frankly embarrassed that what she saw as her mistake was being aired out.  The balance was quickly dispatched, which wasn't the real point.  We sat down and figured out how our joint finances were going to work after getting engaged and we've NEVER had a fight over money.  Wedding was done mostly by us for cash, honeymoon was cash, and we've never carried a credit card balance for more than a month two since.

We each get an allowance, and the rest goes into joint where spending is fully planned and agreed to.  Allowance is strictly personal and ZERO agreement is needed to spend personal money.  It works for us, not for others.  Figure out your money situation before it ever has a chance to become an issue.

My wife now handles the logistics of paying the monthly bills, but I would not handle things any different than she does and would probably be more error prone.

Dicey

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2017, 08:20:04 AM »
When my brother met the young woman he thought was "the one", we all laughed our assess off when she insisted that he
1. Pay off his debt and 2. Pay cash for the ring before he proposed. You go, girl!

I will add that she is a teacher, but had a side job, which is where they met. Nearly wenty years later, he is still the spendier of the two, but he finally "gets it". We all refer to her as his better half and mean it. Love her!

nawhite

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2017, 01:58:38 PM »
My wife had ~$160k in student loans when we met and I had ~$65k myself. We also combined finances as soon as we started living together in college even though after school I earned triple what she did (engineer vs early childhood teacher). I'll call it a "high-risk, high-reward" option. It worked perfectly for us but I can see that it absolutely could have been terrible for me if things hadn't worked out. Fortunately things worked well and now 7 years later, we could pay off the last $45k that's left on the loans if we wanted to today, we just don't because the interest rates are around 3% and we get better returns in our investment accounts.

The biggest thing that worked for us was recognizing how big of an issue the debt was and agreeing that we needed to work together to fix the problem. Combining finances made it easy to say "We need to put $3000/month towards these loans no matter what. If that means we need to keep living like grad students, so be it." It was "our" money and it went towards "our" loans so we needed to make decisions together about how to pay them off. Honestly, I think she might have been a little like a deer in the headlights about the situation as in "oh shit, 100% of my salary is going to 'our' loans but this guy seems to have his shit together so I'll do what he says" but it didn't cause any resentment in our relationship in either direction fortunately.

So definitely not for everyone, just an anecdote about going all in together despite very different financial prospects and it turning out positively.

Psychstache

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2017, 02:34:11 PM »

It's somewhere between A and B.  It's not that she's bad with details, but I think she feels depressed about the student debt and her personality leads her to want to ignore the problem rather than facing it head on.  At least last time I broached the subject. She's made poor financial decisions (e.g. getting a travel credit card), but I think this is mostly due to wanting to run away from the problem instead of running the numbers.

Also, by "handling the finances" I mean trying to keep us aligned with our financial goals, and tracking results via Excel, not controlling purchase decisions.  I've thought about the "agreement on major purchases" idea, as well as having separate "splurge" accounts for the occasional thing... but what if we both agree if either of us makes a major non-necessary purchase (e.g. a new car or something), then that person agrees to be on the hook for working a bit longer?   Smaller splurge items ($100 here and there) would just be noise as long as we keep that to a few items per year.

Honestly, this would concern me more than any specific money issues. You make it sound like this is her general approach in life, and if that is the case then Homegirl is gonna need to learn some better coping/problem solving skills. Life is hard and has lots of challenges and adding a spouse and (possibly) kids is only going to amplify the problems. I would make sure she has a better survival strategies than an ostrich does before getting into a lifetime commitment.

J Boogie

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2017, 02:53:40 PM »
Have a hard conversation about money, and do it before a ring is involved.

My wife and I hitched up and she had a few thousand in credit card debt, not the league you are talking about.  She viewed it as her responsibility to finish paying off.  I objected, and won.  She was aghast, and frankly embarrassed that what she saw as her mistake was being aired out.  The balance was quickly dispatched, which wasn't the real point.  We sat down and figured out how our joint finances were going to work after getting engaged and we've NEVER had a fight over money.  Wedding was done mostly by us for cash, honeymoon was cash, and we've never carried a credit card balance for more than a month two since.

We each get an allowance, and the rest goes into joint where spending is fully planned and agreed to.  Allowance is strictly personal and ZERO agreement is needed to spend personal money.  It works for us, not for others.  Figure out your money situation before it ever has a chance to become an issue.

My wife now handles the logistics of paying the monthly bills, but I would not handle things any different than she does and would probably be more error prone.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your personal vs joint ratio/number?

My wife and I each get like $150 for personal spending but we have a tough time keeping the accounting up to date as our personal accounts don't also have personal credit cards.  Maybe we should get personal credit cards.  How do you keep them separate?

lifejoy

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2017, 06:31:58 PM »
Context is everything. My husband had $90k of student loan debt when we married. We battled it together and were debt free in two years! We share the same goals and values,  and teach each other money skills. We are definitely on the same team and over time he has become more mustachian than me!

lifejoy

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2017, 06:36:46 PM »
As an aside, my DH and I have separate "fun money" and it has been working SO well for us. We bank with RBC (joint) and every month we each get $200 sent to our Tangerine accounts. The tangerine accounts don't have credit cards, so when making a "fun" or personal credit card purchase, we immediately transfer the funds from our personal tangerine account to the joint RBC. Tangerine has no fees, so this worked really well for us to be able to keep our fun money separate.

DH now can buy his lunch as much as he wants with no complaints from me! And I now have a way to save up for diamonds and shoes :)

If anyone in Canada is going to be signing up for tangerine, use my referral number: 48932441S1

It will give us both money! :)

Rowellen

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2017, 10:25:30 PM »
This thread is so lovely. So many great relationships here. It's made me stop and take a moment to appreciate my own husband.

As an aside, my DH and I have separate "fun money" and it has been working SO well for us. We bank with RBC (joint) and every month we each get $200 sent to our Tangerine accounts. The tangerine accounts don't have credit cards, so when making a "fun" or personal credit card purchase, we immediately transfer the funds from our personal tangerine account to the joint RBC. Tangerine has no fees, so this worked really well for us to be able to keep our fun money separate.

DH now can buy his lunch as much as he wants with no complaints from me! And I now have a way to save up for diamonds and shoes :)

If anyone in Canada is going to be signing up for tangerine, use my referral number: 48932441S1

It will give us both money! :)

This works for us as well. It enforces a boundary on reckless spending while allowing some freedom to spend on things that make us happy as an individual but doesn't make us happy as a couple.  For example. My DH likes to drop $100 at the casino every now and then. That's ok because he's spending his money. He has fun and leaves when he runs out of his preset amount. If this was coming from our joint account I would be hopping mad. Likewise he doesn't begrudge me my book habit.

I think student loans are a bit different in Australia.  We pay via the tax system a percentage of our income. Additional payments could be made with a discount. When they started to talk about removing the discount, I told hubby I wanted to pay it off in full. He didn't even hesitate. Love him.

We have very open communication regarding finances too. We have never fought about money. It helps that we are both naturally frugal and have common goals. For now it's paying off the mortgage and putting our kids through school.

Communication and common goals are key, IMO.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 04:34:57 AM by Rowellen »

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2017, 01:00:26 AM »
If she's your partner, as in unofficial wife type partner, then you simply combine your finances. You might be better at dealing with them day to day. You meet in the middle in terms of long term expectations.

ol1970

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2017, 07:12:22 AM »
Just to put things in context of how your situation is not in the code red status, her is how bad it could be:

-Long term partner tells you she earns about $40k/year and has about $40k in savings (36 years old) not great but not horrible.  Reality turns out to be she really only has a small $8k/year residual check from a commission based gig a few years back that was ending in a year...oh and she is actually about $15k in debt.
-Once she has come clean after a come to Jesus sit down talk, all is forgiven and a fresh start is agreed upon with a plan. 
-She had lost her license previously (long story) and now regains her license and needs a car.  We sit down together and go over a budget and types of cars to get based upon her economic situation.  I offer her articles to read about car ownership and driving something that fits your budget.  Help at every step is offered, but she "has this".  Instead of returning with a $3k-$8k type car, she pulls up in the driveway with a shiny brand new $30k car that she has signed a 3 years lease for.  Yep between payment and insurance and ongoing vehicle expenses about $700+ a month...or 70% of her take home pay at the time.  Oh wait it gets better...
-After the come to Jesus sit down her daughter turned 16 and she plopped down $6k on a credit card to pay for a sweet 16 party.
-After all of this...hell I could go on and on but it just really shows what a sucker I was for sticking by this person and believing in them...lesson learned!

Some people it is just not in their DNA to be successful in life, others are just going to struggle.  Identify these traits early make a decision and act decisively...don't waste your time if they don't align with your future or show the promise to turn things around.

Dicey

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2017, 07:20:42 AM »
Just to put things in context of how your situation is not in the code red status, her is how bad it could be:

-Long term partner tells you she earns about $40k/year and has about $40k in savings (36 years old) not great but not horrible.  Reality turns out to be she really only has a small $8k/year residual check from a commission based gig a few years back that was ending in a year...oh and she is actually about $15k in debt.
-Once she has come clean after a come to Jesus sit down talk, all is forgiven and a fresh start is agreed upon with a plan. 
-She had lost her license previously (long story) and now regains her license and needs a car.  We sit down together and go over a budget and types of cars to get based upon her economic situation.  I offer her articles to read about car ownership and driving something that fits your budget.  Help at every step is offered, but she "has this".  Instead of returning with a $3k-$8k type car, she pulls up in the driveway with a shiny brand new $30k car that she has signed a 3 years lease for.  Yep between payment and insurance and ongoing vehicle expenses about $700+ a month...or 70% of her take home pay at the time.  Oh wait it gets better...
-After the come to Jesus sit down her daughter turned 16 and she plopped down $6k on a credit card to pay for a sweet 16 party.
-After all of this...hell I could go on and on but it just really shows what a sucker I was for sticking by this person and believing in them...lesson learned!

Some people it is just not in their DNA to be successful in life, others are just going to struggle.  Identify these traits early make a decision and act decisively...don't waste your time if they don't align with your future or show the promise to turn things around.
I'm sorry you went through the this, but glad that enlightenment happened eventually. I think the topic of "Clues That Your SO Might to Be A Spendypants" would be a great new thread. Your pithy observations might help save others from a similar fate.

talltexan

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Re: Long-term partner with lots of debt
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2017, 08:27:05 AM »
Part of the problem with joining finances is that you cannot tell what someone will be like with money once they have children. My wife believes that any child-related expense is appropriate. I ought to have predicted this (her mother is the same way), but she's fairly restrained with money in most other situations. Our biggest money fights are about projects of hers that require spending money on the children.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!