Let's talk about rap

[GuitarStv]

Hybrid: I don't think there is any replacement at all. There is still good modern soul. There is still good large-band complex arrangement stuff happening.

The form of your argument could be used just as well to dismiss rock music. Rock music doesn't have any of the rhythmic vocal complexities of rap. There is no phonetic dissonance and resolution. There is no word play. There are no interesting juxtapositions of music from different eras and places. All the music comes from the same place. There is no strong tradition of including other artists and other voices in your records. Rock music relies much more than rap on the lazy scales, chords and shapes that have been relied upon for 400 years.

Rock music also lacks the harmonic complexity of classical music.  Mozart died more than 200 years ago, but his music is still going strong.  Hell, rock predominantly uses silly electric instruments rather than violins and horn sections . . . And we all know that you don't need skill to work a guitar (or synthesizer).

As far as vocal range, volume and skill go operatic singers are significantly more talented than your typical rock frontman.

[hybrid]

Hybrid: I don't think there is any replacement at all. There is still good modern soul. There is still good large-band complex arrangement stuff happening.

The form of your argument could be used just as well to dismiss rock music. Rock music doesn't have any of the rhythmic vocal complexities of rap. There is no phonetic dissonance and resolution. There is no word play. There are no interesting juxtapositions of music from different eras and places. All the music comes from the same place. There is no strong tradition of including other artists and other voices in your records. Rock music relies much more than rap on the lazy scales, chords and shapes that have been relied upon for 400 years.

This feels like a rehash of the old "all music is created equal" argument. Sorry, I don't accept the premise. To each their own.

While I am certain there is plenty of good music out there if one looks hard enough for it, when I am at a stoplight in warm weather and I hear what is coming from other radios I rarely experience this wealth you describe. In other words, music as an art I am certain is alive and well as you insist. But at the commercial level, the level most folks consume, I feel like it has devolved over time.

[hybrid]

Hybrid: I don't think there is any replacement at all. There is still good modern soul. There is still good large-band complex arrangement stuff happening.

The form of your argument could be used just as well to dismiss rock music. Rock music doesn't have any of the rhythmic vocal complexities of rap. There is no phonetic dissonance and resolution. There is no word play. There are no interesting juxtapositions of music from different eras and places. All the music comes from the same place. There is no strong tradition of including other artists and other voices in your records. Rock music relies much more than rap on the lazy scales, chords and shapes that have been relied upon for 400 years.

Rock music also lacks the harmonic complexity of classical music.  Mozart died more than 200 years ago, but his music is still going strong.  Hell, rock predominantly uses silly electric instruments rather than violins and horn sections . . . And we all know that you don't need skill to work a guitar (or synthesizer).

I would argue the very best rock/modern music in fact does incorporate strings and brass.

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic about guitar playing, but a synthesizer can in fact be programmed to the point of not requiring a human to "play" one.

[GuitarStv]

Hybrid: I don't think there is any replacement at all. There is still good modern soul. There is still good large-band complex arrangement stuff happening.

The form of your argument could be used just as well to dismiss rock music. Rock music doesn't have any of the rhythmic vocal complexities of rap. There is no phonetic dissonance and resolution. There is no word play. There are no interesting juxtapositions of music from different eras and places. All the music comes from the same place. There is no strong tradition of including other artists and other voices in your records. Rock music relies much more than rap on the lazy scales, chords and shapes that have been relied upon for 400 years.

Rock music also lacks the harmonic complexity of classical music.  Mozart died more than 200 years ago, but his music is still going strong.  Hell, rock predominantly uses silly electric instruments rather than violins and horn sections . . . And we all know that you don't need skill to work a guitar (or synthesizer).

I would argue the very best rock/modern music in fact does incorporate strings and brass.

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic about guitar playing, but a synthesizer can in fact be programmed to the point of not requiring a human to "play" one.

This line of argument is usually used by people who've never written electronic music.  It's easy to make sounds, it's hard to make them sound good.  Just like with any other instrument.

Mozart didn't play his compositions, the orchestra did.  I guess he was a shitty/lazy musician too . . .

[hybrid]

To make one more contrast, look at the career path of The Beatles. While their early music was staggeringly popular, years later most critics agree that it was their later music, the music that did not comprise merely of three guitars and drums, that stands heads and shoulders above their earlier work.

So here I offer an example of the very same band producing very different music. The Beatles evolved and became better over time. If you tease out the reasons why, it's straightforward. The music is richer and more complex.

Most modern commercial music I hear is neither rich nor complex compared to its predecessors. There is no accounting for taste, but I am offering the reasons why my generation is less-than-impressed with rap (and modern rock) today. We grew up in the era of studio bands. To say we're just older papers over the flaws in today's commercial music industry. 

[rocksinmyhead]

no offense intended, but you do kind of sound like an old guy who assumes "modern music" isn't producing anything better than Rihanna :)

None taken. My coworkers listen to modern "top 40" music all day, and I've been listening the past ten years waiting for it to get better, and to this reviewer (and many like me) it by and large just doesn't measure up. There are exceptions of course, but the rule seems to hold true. I am 47, The Beatles had already broken up while I was still watching Sesame Street. So it might be fair to argue I am merely lobbying for the music I grew up with, but the reality is I developed an appreciation for music from the 60s well after the fact. There is much music I did grow up with from the early 80s that I will freely I admit I like in part because I was younger at the time and identify it with my youth, but I'm not mentioning some of those wholly forgettable bands in my argument (yes Night Ranger, I'm talking to you....).

well I think overall I agree with you, then. 99% of Top 40 music really, really sucks. but don't lose hope, there's still great music being made today that doesn't make it to Top 40 radio :) I guess it is sad that the good stuff is probably less popular these days than it was in previous decades.

(I do disagree that electronic music and rap universally suck, though)

[hybrid]

This line of argument is usually used by people who've never written electronic music.  It's easy to make sounds, it's hard to make them sound good.  Just like with any other instrument.

Mozart didn't play his compositions, the orchestra did.  I guess he was a shitty/lazy musician too . . .

Fair enough GuitarStv, my point still goes back to the thump-thump-thump of today's rap just doesn't amount to a whole lot. I do like synthesizers, I like songs that have nothing but synthesizers. She Blinded Me With Science is one of my favorite songs.

The point I am trying to express (without getting emotional about it) is that when I hear rap music I rarely hear what others in this thread are describing. Now, it's entirely possible I simply have a tin ear, or, after 25 years, I simply haven't given rap a fair shake. Just as it is entirely possible that if you eat enough fast food over and over you start to think of it as good food.

[hybrid]

One more thought. I find it (sadly) humorous that people can quite easily separate quality food from cheap processed food, quality beer from cheap, mass-produced beer, but when it comes to music everyone seems to have a camp they are adamant about defending. I was rather hoping for a conversation about what makes music good, and to do so it seems necessary to tease out what makes some music not as good, or just plain bad.

No self-respecting beer drinker puts Budweiser in the same room with a quality Belgian.

I'm offering that a lot of rap music is the equivalent of Budweiser. I'd like to hear some compelling reasons to the contrary. I get there are plenty of folks that like Budweiser. My argument is it's cheap beer not worth drinking when there are so many better alternatives to choose from. Music is no different to me in that respect.

[Bakari]

Aside from all the other themes mentioned about rap, here is why I don't like it. The music, just from a musical standpoint, is sub-standard at best compared to its predecessors. Forget the racial component for just a moment, look at the structure of much of rap itself.

The vocals are often weak or nonexistent, and what about backup singers?
The instruments are often weak or nonexistent, strings, brass, and guitars have been replaced by a synthesizer.

Call me an old man, but when I listen to music produced by black culture then give me a band (an actual band) like Earth Wind and Fire any day of the week. I saw them last year and even in their 60s these guys still know how to put on a show. And what was in that show?

Actual instruments, including brass
A strong lead singer (Philip Bailey, you've still got it)
Backup singers
And of course some incredibly catchy beats and harmonies

When I compare this to thump-thump-thump, marginal or no singing ability, no backup singers, no instruments, then the choice to me is just plainly obvious. Rap to me is like fast food and Motown of old is like going to a nice restaurant. If you like fast food, all well and good, but please don't compare it substantively to what real "chefs" put into their music. Just like all food isn't created equally, all music isn't created equally either. Where I think folks get tripped up is that if you are white and cannot articulate exactly why rap music fails on so many levels musically it is entirely too easy to be labelled racist as a result. Because, naturally, there are some whites that don't like rap that are in fact racists, but that is just a subset of a greater whole that does not like rap music period.

The poetry in rap may be its best selling card, but come on folks, good lyrics are only one element of good music. Rap as a whole is just plain lazily slapped together compared to what came out before it.

I find the same phenomennon to be in true in modern rock as well, this dating back to the 1980s when the necessity of producing a cheesy video effectively put an end to the quality studio bands.  When I saw Steely Dan in concert several years ago there were eleven musicians on stage, only two were singers. There were two different pianos, a three person brass section, etc. This focus on complex music seems to have largely evaporated.   

The last video I posted above had no synthesizer and no samples.  In fact, every single sound was the voice of the artist.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krxhNgVhvU ?

Actual instruments, including brass
A strong lead singer (CeeLo Green, you've still got it)
Backup singers
And of course some incredibly catchy beats and harmonies.

And CeeLo's rapping itself is not just singing along, it is a rhythm instrument itself.  It adds to the overall sound experience, even if you don't understand the language.
Like we keep trying to tell yall, the entire genre is not just the stuff they play on the radio

[somepissedoffman]

Snoop Dogg is not very good.  Fifty Cent is not very good.  Queen Latifah is not very good, but the rhymenoceros is very very good.

[hybrid]

The last video I posted above had no synthesizer and no samples.  In fact, every single sound was the voice of the artist.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krxhNgVhvU ?

Actual instruments, including brass
A strong lead singer (Philip Bailey, you've still got it)
Backup singers
And of course some incredibly catchy beats and harmonies.

And CeeLo's rapping itself is not just singing along, it is a rhythm instrument itself.  It adds to the overall sound experience, even if you don't understand the language.
Like we keep trying to tell yall, the entire genre is not just the stuff they play on the radio

Oh, I know what you are saying, I am saying that entirely too much of it is (and has been, for a long long time). I can only go by what I hear other people listening to, and what I hear rarely (not always, rarely) impresses. I am definitely not trying to say that all rap is created equal(ly bad) either, some of it is clearly superior. Sorry I did not make that point clearer.

From 20,000 feet it's harder to like what commercial music offers than from years past, and that's a shame. When i was young I always assumed music would continue to get better and better but when I reached my early 20s I could barely listen to the rock station I had grown up with, it had devolved.

[Eric]

So here I offer an example of the very same band producing very different music. The Beatles evolved and became better over time. If you tease out the reasons why, it's straightforward. The music is richer and more complex.

I thought the reason was drugs. 

[senecando]

bakari: That Cee-lo is killer. Gracias.

[Jamesqf]

So the problem with rap is... people are prejudiced against it? That's a problem with prejudiced people, not with rap.

I think you are confusing prejudice with taste.  Suppose you happen to be a vegetarian, and I force-feed you a delicious steak dinner: would you be happy about that?  Or perhaps a closer analogy might be motorcycles: some people really get off on riding Harleys with non-functional mufflers, others like nice quiet Hondas and detest the loud ones.  Which is pretty much just a matter of taste - except the Honda rider (and everyone else) is forced to endure the Harley rider's noise.

Word.

Which word?

also, in my experience people who enjoy Gregorian chant music are, more often than not, obnoxious cultural elitists. so... Gregorian chant music is of low quality or worth?

Since it would seem that the alternative is being a cultural mediocrity, I'll accept that I am a cultural elitist - and indeed, am proud to be one.  But obnoxious?  I will lay long odds that you have never heard a 'boom car' blasting you with Gregorian chant.


 

Where I think folks get tripped up is that if you are white and cannot articulate exactly why rap music fails on so many levels musically it is entirely too easy to be labelled racist as a result. Because, naturally, there are some whites that don't like rap that are in fact racists, but that is just a subset of a greater whole that does not like rap music period.

And entirely sidesteps the fact that we might perhaps think that Scott Joplin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Joplin is one of the best, if not the best, American composers.

Rock music also lacks the harmonic complexity of classical music.  Mozart died more than 200 years ago, but his music is still going strong.  Hell, rock predominantly uses silly electric instruments rather than violins and horn sections . . . And we all know that you don't need skill to work a guitar (or synthesizer).

Or you might compare classical guitar to guitar as played in typical rock...

[Bakari]

Snoop Dogg is not very good.  Fifty Cent is not very good.  Queen Latifah is not very good, but the rhymenoceros is very very good.

I'm the Hiphopopotamus, my lyrics are bottomless...

...

...

...

[Jamesqf]

Most modern commercial music I hear is neither rich nor complex compared to its predecessors. There is no accounting for taste, but I am offering the reasons why my generation is less-than-impressed with rap (and modern rock) today. We grew up in the era of studio bands. To say we're just older papers over the flaws in today's commercial music industry.

The generational thing also completely bypasses those of us who prefer music other than what we grew up hearing.  I happen to think Bach is the best, but I assure you that I am not anywhere close to 400 years old.  Indeed, I don't remember ever hearing Bach until I was in my mid-20s, and was probably in my 30s before I'd even heard of O'Carolan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_O'Carolan or other Celtic music.

And if we can revisit the prejudice issue for a minute, have you folks who'd like to put my distaste for rap down to prejudice or cultural elitism ever listened to these, or anything outside the popular mainstream?  If you haven't, aren't you just as prejudiced as I am?  If not more so, as I have at least been exposed, however unwillingly, to some rap.

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Snoop Dogg is not very good.  Fifty Cent is not very good.  Queen Latifah is not very good, but the rhymenoceros is very very good.

I'm the Hiphopopotamus, my lyrics are bottomless...

...

...

...

Bret:  Is that it?

[senecando]

Most modern commercial music I hear is neither rich nor complex compared to its predecessors. There is no accounting for taste, but I am offering the reasons why my generation is less-than-impressed with rap (and modern rock) today. We grew up in the era of studio bands. To say we're just older papers over the flaws in today's commercial music industry.

The generational thing also completely bypasses those of us who prefer music other than what we grew up hearing.  I happen to think Bach is the best, but I assure you that I am not anywhere close to 400 years old.  Indeed, I don't remember ever hearing Bach until I was in my mid-20s, and was probably in my 30s before I'd even heard of O'Carolan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_O'Carolan or other Celtic music.

And if we can revisit the prejudice issue for a minute, have you folks who'd like to put my distaste for rap down to prejudice or cultural elitism ever listened to these, or anything outside the popular mainstream?  If you haven't, aren't you just as prejudiced as I am?  If not more so, as I have at least been exposed, however unwillingly, to some rap.

I sang Gregorian chant for the better part of a year and studied Bach's St. Matthew Passion for a semester. I still like both a lot. I also like the hippity hop. (I'm also not one of the folks who called you elitist.)

In each case, without actually listening to the music--not just hearing the bottom lowest half of the frequencies in a neighboring car--you won't ever develop an appreciation for it. You usually have to dig and pay attention a bit. This is more true the more distance there is between you and the musician or composer.

Why have strong opinions about something you admittedly don't pay attention to?

(And I will, in fact, bump some mother-fucking Bruckner or Dvorak in my car now and then. :P )

[lithy]

Wait, wait, wait.

Somehow I think hybrid thinks that people here defending rap are defending the 1 hour rotation of songs that are featured on the popular radio stations that self-identify as "hip-hop/r&b".

I don't think that is the case at all.

I think everyone here is trying to suggest that there is more to rap (and any other genre of music for that matter) than what gets played on the radio.

If we want to be dismissive of the entire corporate music industry as it exists and self-perpetuates today then I am more than ready to jump on that bandwagon.

However, I will not be completely dismissive of all rap music just because I heard a Pitbull song on the way to work today.

[rocksinmyhead]

+1 to lithy and senecando.

and just to be clear, I wasn't actually calling Jamesqf an elitist. I think Gregorian chant is cool. I was just making a gross generalization about the kind of person I think listens to Gregorian chant, just as he made a gross generalization about the kind of people who listen to rap.

[GuitarStv]

One more thought. I find it (sadly) humorous that people can quite easily separate quality food from cheap processed food, quality beer from cheap, mass-produced beer, but when it comes to music everyone seems to have a camp they are adamant about defending. I was rather hoping for a conversation about what makes music good, and to do so it seems necessary to tease out what makes some music not as good, or just plain bad.

No self-respecting beer drinker puts Budweiser in the same room with a quality Belgian.

I'm offering that a lot of rap music is the equivalent of Budweiser. I'd like to hear some compelling reasons to the contrary. I get there are plenty of folks that like Budweiser. My argument is it's cheap beer not worth drinking when there are so many better alternatives to choose from. Music is no different to me in that respect.

Oooh!  I like beer analogies.

No self-respecting beer drinker would try a couple traditional english ales, a wiessbier, a trappist ale, and a lambic and then say that all lambic beer is crap because they didn't like the one they tried.  Sure, bud sucks . . . but that doesn't write off all bottom fermented beers.

Someone with no experience in a particular genre of music might say that it all sounds the same, just as someone with no experience with stouts might be initially off-put by the colour or heaviness.  It really just means that they have a poorly developed pallet for that style of drink/genre of music.

[homehandymum]

Snoop Dogg is not very good.  Fifty Cent is not very good.  Queen Latifah is not very good, but the rhymenoceros is very very good.

I'm the Hiphopopotamus, my lyrics are bottomless...

...

...

...

Frugality; random music discussions; respectful religion discussions; some homeschoolers; some vegans and some paleos who talk to each other nicely; learning about investment strategies; and now Flight of the Conchords.

This is MY FAVOURITE forum EVER



edited to change commas to semicolons because the commas made my list look weird.  better now.

[homehandymum]

Snoop Dogg is not very good.  Fifty Cent is not very good.  Queen Latifah is not very good, but the rhymenoceros is very very good.

I'm the Hiphopopotamus, my lyrics are bottomless...

...

...

...

Bret:  Is that it?

There's no tea party like my Grandma's tea party

hey... ho...

[Cheddar Stacker]

One more thought. I find it (sadly) humorous that people can quite easily separate quality food from cheap processed food, quality beer from cheap, mass-produced beer, but when it comes to music everyone seems to have a camp they are adamant about defending. I was rather hoping for a conversation about what makes music good, and to do so it seems necessary to tease out what makes some music not as good, or just plain bad.

No self-respecting beer drinker puts Budweiser in the same room with a quality Belgian.

I'm offering that a lot of rap music is the equivalent of Budweiser. I'd like to hear some compelling reasons to the contrary. I get there are plenty of folks that like Budweiser. My argument is it's cheap beer not worth drinking when there are so many better alternatives to choose from. Music is no different to me in that respect.

Oooh!  I like beer analogies.

No self-respecting beer drinker would try a couple traditional english ales, a wiessbier, a trappist ale, and a lambic and then say that all lambic beer is crap because they didn't like the one they tried.  Sure, bud sucks . . . but that doesn't write off all bottom fermented beers.

Someone with no experience in a particular genre of music might say that it all sounds the same, just as someone with no experience with stouts might be initially off-put by the colour or heaviness.  It really just means that they have a poorly developed pallet for that style of drink/genre of music.

+1 GuitarStv
It's a flavor, that's it. If you don't like it don't drink it/listen to it. One person's quality Belgian might be cheap skunk to another person. I can't stand Bock beers, but I know others have a strong taste for them. I know people who hate IPA's but I'm kind of a fan. 

I like almost every genre of music (except opera, and yes I see the irony in dismissing an entire genre), but all for various reasons. It's all about mood for me. Bluegrass on a sunny day, yes please. A little enya or indigo girls when it's raining, hell yes. Some Jay Z or Timberland when I'm mowing the lawn, sure what better to drown out the noise from the mower.

One of my biggest turn offs is immediate dismissal of an entire genre, country, religion, political stance, etc. based on a very limited scope, or based on opinion or fear. It's not cheap, it's different.

[Cheddar Stacker]

To talk about any 1 from of music and paint it with the same brush immediately invalidates the argument imo.  Look at Macklemore.  Won  multiple Grammys this year, supports equal rights for the LGBT crowd in one of the most powerful rap songs to support gay marriage ever.  Is highly anti consumerism and very much positive, and encourages embracing your own uniqueness.  I love rap, I love the rhythm, I love Kanye Westside music even though I sometimes wish he himself would get hit by a fast moving vehicle.  Most positive rappers don't get much airtime.  And don't even get me started on international rap, which uses the style as a platform but is incredibly different and highly influenced by politics...it can be a loud mouthpiece for an entire generation or sect of individuals.  It has power and diversity that can be missed if you have only ever listened to what the mainstream plots in front of you...but like the news, if you really open your eyes and ears you will realize there is an entirely different side than most have seen.

+1 to my possibly separated at birth sister. Macklemore is the perfect counter argument. What Mustachian can't appreciate a little  Thrift Shop.

[warfreak2]

The vocals are often weak or nonexistent

In rap music? Rap is a vocal style. A rap track without vocals would be a painting without paint. You might be thinking of "singing", a common vocal style which is not necessary in every genre of music.

[warfreak2]

Except that you have a large segment of the public which will not listen to the message - and in fact will go to great lengths to avoid hearing it - simply because it is rap

So the problem with rap is... people are prejudiced against it? That's a problem with prejudiced people, not with rap.

I think you are confusing prejudice with taste. [reddest ever herring omitted]

No, I think it is you who is confusing prejudice with taste. These people, by your description, are already very sure that they don't like this music, despite not having heard it. They are pre-judging it. That is the definition of prejudice.

[warfreak2]

Triple-post because I forgot to mention 64k in the nerd-rap roundup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwy1hHqRT3o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAcoyUptGE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5F0Zq7FxqU

This thread now has too many white people. I'm calling an embargo on any more links to white people rapping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay9BWM8lwOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-O5IHVhWj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM0-ZU8njdo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo

[hybrid]

One more thought. I find it (sadly) humorous that people can quite easily separate quality food from cheap processed food, quality beer from cheap, mass-produced beer, but when it comes to music everyone seems to have a camp they are adamant about defending. I was rather hoping for a conversation about what makes music good, and to do so it seems necessary to tease out what makes some music not as good, or just plain bad.

No self-respecting beer drinker puts Budweiser in the same room with a quality Belgian.

I'm offering that a lot of rap music is the equivalent of Budweiser. I'd like to hear some compelling reasons to the contrary. I get there are plenty of folks that like Budweiser. My argument is it's cheap beer not worth drinking when there are so many better alternatives to choose from. Music is no different to me in that respect.

Oooh!  I like beer analogies.

No self-respecting beer drinker would try a couple traditional english ales, a wiessbier, a trappist ale, and a lambic and then say that all lambic beer is crap because they didn't like the one they tried.  Sure, bud sucks . . . but that doesn't write off all bottom fermented beers.

Someone with no experience in a particular genre of music might say that it all sounds the same, just as someone with no experience with stouts might be initially off-put by the colour or heaviness.  It really just means that they have a poorly developed pallet for that style of drink/genre of music.

Perhaps, but cheap beer made from cheap ingredients usually tastes cheap.

[somepissedoffman]

Just wanted to add:

'walk alone' by the the roots
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvx6XhznaGY
whole album is beautiful

and pharoahe monch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVrgFl1w1Io
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb49FN_AKwg

[Jamesqf]

In each case, without actually listening to the music--not just hearing the bottom lowest half of the frequencies in a neighboring car--you won't ever develop an appreciation for it.

Now did I ever imply that drive-by rap was all I've ever heard?  I think not: the point I was trying to make there could be summarized by "by their fruits ye shall know them".  That is, since it is overwhelmingly rap that I hear blasting out of passing cars, I form the conclusion that people who choose to listen to rap are much more likely to be obnoxious jerks than people who prefer many other genres.

You usually have to dig and pay attention a bit. This is more true the more distance there is between you and the musician or composer.

My experience has been just the opposite.  Finding a new genre, or sometimes just a new artist, that I really like is almost like being struck by lightning.  I've tried to 'learn to like' various styles - jazz, for instance - to no avail.  I'm not sure what you mean by 'distance', but if it's cultural differences, I really can't see that there is more distance between me and a rapper, than a blind minstrel in feudal Ireland, or a church musician in 18th century Germany.

Why have strong opinions about something you admittedly don't pay attention to?

Because it is inflicted on me.  If it wasn't, then I would care no more about it than I do about say polka or reggae.

and just to be clear, I wasn't actually calling Jamesqf an elitist.

Darn, I just can't get any recognition, can I?

No self-respecting beer drinker would try a couple traditional english ales, a wiessbier, a trappist ale, and a lambic and then say that all lambic beer is crap because they didn't like the one they tried.  Sure, bud sucks . . . but that doesn't write off all bottom fermented beers.

But someone might try a reasonable selection of lagers, then say that they really don't care for lager.  Or they might try just one stout, decide they really like it, and so seek out other stouts.  Further - to make the analogy a bit more apropos - I don't think anyone really appreciates having any sort of beer thrown in their face.  And if, after visiting a number of bars, you find that it's invariably lager being thrown...  Well, would it be unreasonable to avoid the company of lager drinkers in the future?

No, I think it is you who is confusing prejudice with taste. These people, by your description, are already very sure that they don't like this music, despite not having heard it. They are pre-judging it. That is the definition of prejudice.

No, because the people already have heard enough of that genre of music to decide that they don't like it, so they are not PRE-judging it.  Suppose, just for example, that we just change the genre, and express those social/political messages in operas: would the people who prefer rap ever hear the message?  And why the hell aren't rap fans just as prejudiced for choosing not to listen to opera?  I would guess that the average opera lover has heard more rap, than the rap fan has opera.

[innerscorecard]

I like rap a lot, including some mainstream rap. It is the music that best exemplifies the struggle of existence. I didn't use to like it at all, but then life got much harder. The same daily struggle that made me ultimately embrace MMM made me appreciate rap. That is quite different from what many of you said.

[warfreak2]

No, I think it is you who is confusing prejudice with taste. These people, by your description, are already very sure that they don't like this music, despite not having heard it. They are pre-judging it. That is the definition of prejudice.

No, because the people already have heard enough of that genre of music to decide that they don't like it, so they are not PRE-judging it.  Suppose, just for example, that we just change the genre, and express those social/political messages in operas: would the people who prefer rap ever hear the message?  And why the hell aren't rap fans just as prejudiced for choosing not to listen to opera?

By your logic, if I actively avoid meeting white people because I think white people are racist dicks, that's not a prejudice because I happen to have met lots of white people who were racist dicks. By your logic, if I met enough men who were sexist pigs, it's not prejudice to say "no, I don't want to meet your husband, because I'm already sure he's a sexist pig."

Forming that preconceived notion about all of a population, based on a small, unrepresentative sample, is prejudice. When you take that preconceived notion about rap and apply it to rap music that you haven't heard, you are pre-judging that music. "No, I don't want to listen to that rap song, because I'm already sure I don't like it." You may think this isn't comparable because racism and sexism are far more harmful than ignoring music, but prejudice isn't defined by how harmful it is - it just means making judgements before you have experience of the particular things you're judging.

I'm not an opera fan, but I don't actively avoid opera because of a preconceived notion that opera is uninteresting, based on only having listened to a small, unrepresentative sample of opera. Who does that? There aren't popular radio stations whose selling point is that they don't play opera, for example.

[hybrid]

I wouldn't have phrased it quite like James did, but I get the point he is trying to drive home. I've been exposed to rap music on and off since the early 80s. I'm pretty darn sure I don't care for it after all these years and I made an attempt to explain why I like other forms of popular (if older) music more. Guitarstv seems to credit my opinion to ignorance of the genre, the thing is, I am far from alone in that opinion and I've heard my fair share of rap after all this time. So it feels like Guitarstv is addressing me more than my argument. I can live with that comparison, as it feels like a stretch.

I can't speak to the merits of various individual symphonies with any more authority than I can about individual rap artists, but I can definitely say which is the more complex musical organism and which one I would more likely gravitate toward.  To confuse that with a racial or age preference is a red herring that misses the greater point. The rap I have been exposed to over the years (along with modern white rock) is a musical downgrade from what was already available to me. In the 70s and 80s when I was growing up there were precious few musical options outside of popular radio and vinyl or tape. In the Internet age people have the luxury of being far more choosy. I appreciate everyone who has offered examples of higher quality rap and hip hop, my point is that for the majority of the genre, certainly the genre I've been exposed to (and not the cream of the crop), I'd prefer silence if there were no other available options.

[rocksinmyhead]

and just to be clear, I wasn't actually calling Jamesqf an elitist.

Darn, I just can't get any recognition, can I?

oh fine, you can be a cultural elitist if you want :)

[HAULIN3]

when I saw the title "let's talk about rap" I figured it wasnt really about rap music.. haaha!! 

Try listening to steel panther in the car (against your will)  haha!! My husband listens to every kind of music available to man, but somehow he listens to rap most! He's 53 and my 25 year old son just shakes his head....

I think its halarious!!!

[warfreak2]

my 25 year old son just shakes his head....

They see him rollin', they hatin'

[Cheddar Stacker]

my 25 year old son just shakes his head....

They see him rollin', they hatin'

They tryin' to catch him ridin' dirty

[Jamesqf]

By your logic, if I actively avoid meeting white people because I think white people are racist dicks, that's not a prejudice because I happen to have met lots of white people who were racist dicks. By your logic, if I met enough men who were sexist pigs, it's not prejudice to say "no, I don't want to meet your husband, because I'm already sure he's a sexist pig."

Wrong, because racism is not an inherent quality of white people (or black, brown, red, or yellow ones), nor is sexist pigism an inherent quality of men.  But 'rapism' (if I may coin a word) is an inherent quality of rap: if a partcular piece of music didn't have rapism, it would belong to a different musical genre, wouldn't it?

If you want a better analogy, I happen to have an extreme aversion to tomatos.  I simply can't eat them.  Doesn't matter if they're fresh, sliced on a burger, cooked in spagetti sauce, whatever.  Doesn't matter how much YOU like them, or whether you try to convince me that sun-dried tomatos are really wonderful, 'cause it's the essential tomatoness that reacts with my sense of taste to produce the barf reaction.

Forming that preconceived notion about all of a population, based on a small, unrepresentative sample, is prejudice.

But the key word there is unrepresentative.  I would argue that my sampling of rap is both representative, and large enough to be statistically significant.

There aren't popular radio stations whose selling point is that they don't play opera, for example.

On the contrary, that's one of commercial radio stations' selling points: one so important that it doesn't even need to be stated :-)

Supose we swich genres, though.  There are, I believe, quite a number of radio stations that play country & western music*.  They don't play rap, any more than rap stations ever play C&W.


*Another genre I happen to mostly dislike. 

[senecando]

jamesqf, a poem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1x6Ma5nYDY

[senecando]

jamesqf: Here's a song you definitely will not like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eLPiLVsFNs

[somepissedoffman]

My compiled thoughts on the subject:

-I love hip hop
-I don't care very much if other people enjoy it or not.  Debating preferences is silly.
-A lot of rap is objectively terrible.  Pitbull is perhaps the worst thing to happen to humanity.  Ever.
-I do frown at arguments that hip hop is artistically inferior to other genres.  If you simply do not like it (and that's ok), you won't appreciate what it has to offer.
-I appreciate people playing loud music from their cars, that's the only way I get to listen to jams on my bike.

[warfreak2]

By your logic, if I actively avoid meeting white people because I think white people are racist dicks, that's not a prejudice because I happen to have met lots of white people who were racist dicks. By your logic, if I met enough men who were sexist pigs, it's not prejudice to say "no, I don't want to meet your husband, because I'm already sure he's a sexist pig."

Wrong, because racism is not an inherent quality of white people

And I suppose you think that "being terrible music" is an inherent quality of rap, and that that isn't prejudiced?

Doesn't matter how much YOU like them, or whether you try to convince me

Nobody is trying to convince you to like rap. Pay attention.

But the key word there is unrepresentative.  I would argue that my sampling of rap is both representative, and large enough to be statistically significant.

You sure like your herrings red. We were discussing your claim that a lot of people avoid rap simply because it is rap, and that that isn't prejudiced. Unless you are a lot of people, your own particular sampling doesn't matter. The vast majority of people who are averse to rap have not listened to a wide variety of different artists who rap on a diverse range of topics.

There aren't popular radio stations whose selling point is that they don't play opera, for example.

On the contrary, that's one of commercial radio stations' selling points: one so important that it doesn't even need to be stated :-)

That is a contradiction in terms. A selling point is something which is stated, by definition. Many radio stations don't play opera, but none of them proudly proclaim "we play all the hits, with no opera", so they aren't pandering to an audience who actively avoid opera.

[Jamesqf]

And I suppose you think that "being terrible music" is an inherent quality of rap, and that that isn't prejudiced?

Actually, no, because I don't know of any objective way to determine what's terrible music.  I just know that I find it extremely unpleasant to listen to, just as I find for instance mariachi, soul, or certain parts of opera unpleasant.  (Why do the sopranos screech so?)  So how much mariachi did you have to listen to before you could tell whether you liked it or not?  And did it matter whether or not you understand colloquial Mexican Spanish?

Nobody is trying to convince you to like rap. Pay attention.

Why don't YOU pay attention?  A good number of posts have been trying to convince me (and other readers) to like rap.

The vast majority of people who are averse to rap have not listened to a wide variety of different artists who rap on a diverse range of topics.

But again, the topics are irrelevant to whether I like or dislike the musical form.  In any genre, you could replace the words with nonsense syllables, or do an instrumental version, and the music wouldn't change.

That is a contradiction in terms. A selling point is something which is stated, by definition. Many radio stations don't play opera, but none of them proudly proclaim "we play all the hits, with no opera", so they aren't pandering to an audience who actively avoid opera.

I disagree with your definition of selling point.  It's just easier to advertise the genre they do play, than repeat an impractically long list of all the genres they don't.   

[warfreak2]

I've lost interest in this. The following is a test of the emergency satire system.

So how much mariachi did you have to listen to

I've never had to listen to mariachi, and I don't know why you'd assume that someone would force me to listen to mariachi.

you understand colloquial Mexican Spanish?

No, as it happens, I don't.

A good number of posts

What's a good number? Why should I have to like the same numbers you do?

In any genre, you could replace the words with nonsense syllables

I couldn't, I don't have much practice writing nonsense syllables, and it wouldn't interest me anyway.

repeat an impractically long list of all the genres

Grindcore, bro-step, ska, bastard pop, full-on, shoegaze, fidget house, jungle, free improv, grime...

This concludes the test of the emergency satire system. Had this been a real emergency, you would have been advised to go back to collect your personal belongings, leave doors open and use lifts to evacuate the building while panicking.

[senecando]

But the key word there is unrepresentative.  I would argue that my sampling of rap is both representative, and large enough to be statistically significant.

I think I can honestly say that I've never heard rap and understood the lyrics.

...

[Elaine]

Anyway...

...I like Chella H and Tiffany Foxx a lot lately.

I'm not big on just sitting and listening to rap on headphones, but I have taken hip hop for years- it makes me MOOOOVE.

[Jamesqf]

I've lost interest in this. The following is a test of the emergency satire system.

....

In any genre, you could replace the words with nonsense syllables

I couldn't, I don't have much practice writing nonsense syllables, and it wouldn't interest me anyway.

You do realize that neither I, nor presumably anyone else participating here, are the least little bit responsible for your lack of either competence or interest, don't you?

Just out of curiousity, though, why bother to post in a thread when you're not interested?

[warfreak2]

This is a thread about rap. I thought you were the one who wasn't interested?

[Jamesqf]

This is a thread about rap. I thought you were the one who wasn't interested?

Depends on the sort of interest.  For example, if this were a thread about cancer, I would be interested if we were discussing prevention & treatment, and even the basic scientific research.  If it was a patient support group, I would be sympathetic, but not really interested.

So which is this, a rap fan thread, or one discussing it as a social phenomenon?