Let's talk about rap

[wepner]

From a thread about RVs...

Regardless, I don't think we should be taking life lessons from rappers.

I'd like to hear the rationale behind this.

Ooh, ooh, let me!  I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture (a bad reason to hate rap) but I find rap distasteful because it glorifies misogyny, homophobia, and fiscal irresponsibility (a better reason to hate rap).

Every few months I have another opportunity here to make this same point:  value is not measured in dollars.  Just because some dude has $100million in the bank does not automatically make him a role model for the rest of us.

I find this to be an intellectually lazy argument. Just because there are popular examples of the genre that exhibit these issues does not mean that those issues are inherent in that genre of music. Does Hemmingway or Bukowski's popularity mean that novels are misogynistic? What about 30th century American literature? Of course it doesn't.  Don't get me wrong I prefer Hemmingway to Lil Wayne but there is no reason to dismiss an entire genre of music.

In general reading books is probably more beneficial than playing video games or reading comic books or watching a movie. But exceptional examples of comic books, video games, or movies have got to be better than shit books right?

[Russ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWrMGXwhFLk&feature=youtu.be&t=2m1s

[greaper007]

You can find lots of goofy things in mainstream music.   Mainstream country bothers the hell out of me.   Between jingoism (banning the Dixie Chicks for saying what everyone already thought about Bush), misogyny, the promotion of excessive alcohol usage and violent undertones, it could be argued that it's a genre of music that shouldn't be played in front of young people.    Yet, I and almost anyone else with a brain realizes that what you hear on the radio isn't representative of a genre as a whole.    Which is why I think I'm going to finish my porter and listen to some Johnny Cash.

For the record, I find mainstream rap and hip hop distasteful not because I find it offensive.   But rather because I find the themes to be banal and lazy.   Take Jay Z, he's immensely talented and truly grew up in an impoverished situation.   He beat the odds, avoided prison even though he was crack dealer and was able to foster a career in a very difficult field.    Yet, he chooses to use his success to glorify a lifestyle of excess and narcissism that's completely unsustainable for society as a whole instead of pushing a broader social agenda.   I find that to be incredibly more distasteful than the themes brought up in the original post.

[rocklebock]

Yep. Hip-hop is just as diverse in its themes and the personas of performers as any other genre I can think of. The trouble is, only narrow sections of it are marketed to mainstream audiences, so it's not surprising that some people think that's all there is. You have to go a bit out of your way to find the other stuff. But that's also true of any other genre I can think of.

[Jamesqf]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

[michaelrecycles]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

That makes about as much sense as me saying I find MMM culture distasteful because it produced your comment.

[Mazzinator]

Shit, why yous be dissin hova?

[homehandymum]

I don't think you can dismiss a whole genre.

I personally really like some of the North African social justice type rap (often with amazing french accents).

I also really didn't get the whole folk/country music scene, until I heard Ani DiFranco and some of the 70s folkies.

But I can't listen to rape-culture lyrics (most often heard in rap), and I can't listen to co-dependent "treat me however you want but please don't leave me" lyrics (folk/country). 

I'm a lyrics girl, rather than a style of music girl.  If I like what you're singing *about* then I'll enjoy your song.  If it makes my skin crawl then not so much.

[GuitarStv]

There's very very little rap that I enjoy listening to.  It's become a highly commercialized product, and the stereotypes that most rap follows aren't stereotypes that I enjoy listening to for the most part.  There's glorification of violence, there's misogyny, there's waste and excess . . . and the worst examples of all of the above seem to be marketed the hardest to people who buy music.

That said, there are occasional moments of beautiful poetry . . . even in the most commercial stuff.  Take Nas's first album 'Illmatic'.  You can't listen to his delivery, rhythm and choice of words throughout without being impressed by his skill at what he does.  His lyrics paint a stark portrait of growing up poor, and trying to survive when criminal activities are the only path you see to some level of comfort/security in your life.

[kt]

i am sure there is rap out there i would like. i don't want to write off the whole genre but i have yet to find any! i'm pretty open minded musically but there's a lot more i want to explore before i continue my search for rap that i enjoy.

[Elaine]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

This is a pretty problematic statement. Apply that logic to other things and see how it sounds.

[Bakari]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

I totally understand that.  I felt the same way in my youth.  Until I discovered political rap like Public Enemy, and fun, positive rap w/o violence or sexism like Digital Underground.
Yeah, incredibly diverse genre, not remotely represented by the stuff they play on the radio.


Anyway, everytime I hear this song: http://youtu.be/YS0Yn4V7Ysw it makes me think of the MMM community.
(starts at 1:07)

"Just cause you got it in ones, doesn't make it more money!" LOL

Of course, spendin has consequences: http://youtu.be/gWNGXwQr6Fc

[boy_bye]

For anyone who thinks rap sucks, and is willing to have their mind changed, check out Mos Def (now known as Yasiin Bey). "Black on Both Sides" is my favorite record but all of them are pretty great.  Here's a taste:

http://youtu.be/O9Alh0zfRXw

Also, if you can watch the opening credits to "Do the Right Thing" and not feel something powerful, well, that's something I can't understand:

http://youtu.be/U35MvblI4og

But I'm old and so are my references -- can some younguns recommend some newer awesome stuff?

[rocksinmyhead]

For anyone who thinks rap sucks, and is willing to have their mind changed, check out Mos Def (now known as Yasiin Bey). "Black on Both Sides" is my favorite record but all of them are pretty great.  Here's a taste:

http://youtu.be/O9Alh0zfRXw

Also, if you can watch the opening credits to "Do the Right Thing" and not feel something powerful, well, that's something I can't understand:

http://youtu.be/U35MvblI4og

But I'm old and so are my references -- can some younguns recommend some newer awesome stuff?

I really like the album he did with Talib Kweli as Black Star. haven't heard any of his other stuff, I'm gonna have to check it out!

I'm a total Minnesota homer so I love Atmosphere (older stuff... haven't heard the last couple of albums). Love Brother Ali and P.O.S. too. also, in addition to enjoying some non-mainstream rap, Sufjan Stevens is one of my favorite artists of all time so I'm pretty obsessed with this LP: http://www.tormusic.net/downloads/illinoize/ The Gift of Gab track is ahhhhhhmazing.

anyway, greaper007 summed up my feelings on this issue perfectly.

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

I haven't been a fan of the genre since the early to mid 90's.  I love a lot of stuff from before then:  A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Digital Underground, Public Enemy, N.W.A. and then their solo stuff, Boogie Down Productions, Eric B and Rakim, etc.

[Polket]

I've always hated mainstream rap, because every song and every artist concentrates on the main points of:

- Money
- Bitches (now suburban white/black kids are calling women "bitches" which is really annoying)
- Cars
- Drugs
- Murder

Not only as a musician this makes me cringe because nobody has original thought anymore but, it also gives the criminal life a facade of integrity almost, and teenagers/college kids suck it up and integrate it into their lives and think it's okay to disrespect people (especially women). I see it all the time now in the younger 20s generation. I know people that even go to the point where they speak in Ebonics when intoxicated cause it makes them feel more cool.

Also, it promotes being a consumer of material that is beyond your means, could be why it's so popular because EVERYONE including corporations make money off of it. As soon as a certain car model/make is in the most popular rap songs for instance, everyone goes out and buys them it seems lol

On the other hand, rap can be used to spread influence to be strong and keep yourself on track to getting out of poverty and to strive to be a better person. That is the rap I can like, but I don't relate to it because I didn't grow up in the ghetto so I don't know what it's like to go hungry. Mostly I find hip-hop to be the sub-genre that digs more into being conscious and be influential on a positive note.

Interesting thread

[lithy]

I'd just like to know more about 30th century American literature.

[greaper007]

10 years ago I said that rap was where hair metal was in the late 80s.   An overblown, artistically boring, parody of a previously great genre (rock).   Nirvana and the rest of the alternative bands came along and made Poison and Motley Crew irrelevant.   I thought that would happen with rap too, but for some reason it just keeps going.

That's probably more of a result of the current music business than anything else though.

[senecando]

ITT: Folks telling us they don't listen to much rap and then telling us what it's all about.

[Jamesqf]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

I totally understand that.  I felt the same way in my youth.  Until I discovered political rap like Public Enemy, and fun, positive rap w/o violence or sexism like Digital Underground.
Yeah, incredibly diverse genre, not remotely represented by the stuff they play on the radio.

Ah, but we're on an entirely different page here - or perhaps I should say score?  I'm all about the music (a word I use very loosely when applied to rap), not the lyrics - some of which I might even agree with, were they presented in a different form.  I think I can honestly say that I've never heard rap and understood the lyrics.  Not that that should matter musically, though: much of my favorite vocal music is performed in a language (Gaelic) that I don't understand.  I can likewise listen with pleasure to Gregorian chants, even though my Latin is very rusty AND they express ideas with which I disagree (I'm not a Christian), because it is the music that matters.

It's as music that I really detest rap, not just because I can't always avoid its toothachingly painful noise (especially at extreme volume from enighboring cars), but because it displaces better music.

[senecando]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

I totally understand that.  I felt the same way in my youth.  Until I discovered political rap like Public Enemy, and fun, positive rap w/o violence or sexism like Digital Underground.
Yeah, incredibly diverse genre, not remotely represented by the stuff they play on the radio.

Ah, but we're on an entirely different page here - or perhaps I should say score?  I'm all about the music (a word I use very loosely when applied to rap), not the lyrics - some of which I might even agree with, were they presented in a different form.  I think I can honestly say that I've never heard rap and understood the lyrics.  Not that that should matter musically, though: much of my favorite vocal music is performed in a language (Gaelic) that I don't understand.  I can likewise listen with pleasure to Gregorian chants, even though my Latin is very rusty AND they express ideas with which I disagree (I'm not a Christian), because it is the music that matters.

It's as music that I really detest rap, not just because I can't always avoid its toothachingly painful noise (especially at extreme volume from enighboring cars), but because it displaces better music.

For you, not quite Gregorian (too many voices): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QD9zTXbsTI

[Russ]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

I totally understand that.  I felt the same way in my youth.  Until I discovered political rap like Public Enemy, and fun, positive rap w/o violence or sexism like Digital Underground.
Yeah, incredibly diverse genre, not remotely represented by the stuff they play on the radio.

Ah, but we're on an entirely different page here - or perhaps I should say score?  I'm all about the music (a word I use very loosely when applied to rap), not the lyrics - some of which I might even agree with, were they presented in a different form.  I think I can honestly say that I've never heard rap and understood the lyrics.  Not that that should matter musically, though: much of my favorite vocal music is performed in a language (Gaelic) that I don't understand.  I can likewise listen with pleasure to Gregorian chants, even though my Latin is very rusty AND they express ideas with which I disagree (I'm not a Christian), because it is the music that matters.

It's as music that I really detest rap, not just because I can't always avoid its toothachingly painful noise (especially at extreme volume from enighboring cars), but because it displaces better music.

yes, let's talk about how the art jamesqf likes is objectively better than everything else again

[rocksinmyhead]

I'm guessing you were hoping somebody would find rap distasteful because it has roots in urban African American culture...

You've reversed cause and effect there.  I find urban African American culture distasteful because it produced rap.

I totally understand that.  I felt the same way in my youth.  Until I discovered political rap like Public Enemy, and fun, positive rap w/o violence or sexism like Digital Underground.
Yeah, incredibly diverse genre, not remotely represented by the stuff they play on the radio.

Ah, but we're on an entirely different page here - or perhaps I should say score?  I'm all about the music (a word I use very loosely when applied to rap), not the lyrics - some of which I might even agree with, were they presented in a different form.  I think I can honestly say that I've never heard rap and understood the lyrics.  Not that that should matter musically, though: much of my favorite vocal music is performed in a language (Gaelic) that I don't understand.  I can likewise listen with pleasure to Gregorian chants, even though my Latin is very rusty AND they express ideas with which I disagree (I'm not a Christian), because it is the music that matters.

It's as music that I really detest rap, not just because I can't always avoid its toothachingly painful noise (especially at extreme volume from enighboring cars), but because it displaces better music.

yes, let's talk about how the art jamesqf likes is objectively better than everything else again

hahaha, I was trying to think of how to respond to that but you nailed it.

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

10 years ago I said that rap was where hair metal was in the late 80s.   An overblown, artistically boring, parody of a previously great genre (rock).   Nirvana and the rest of the alternative bands came along and made Poison and Motley Crew irrelevant.   I thought that would happen with rap too, but for some reason it just keeps going.

That's probably more of a result of the current music business than anything else though.

Ha!  I used to make this same analogy. 

[Jamesqf]

yes, let's talk about how the art jamesqf likes is objectively better than everything else again

Well, if you really want to.  First define your objective criteria, then take your measurements.  Report back when you've done, say in a few years, and we can discuss it.   But it won't change my tastes - you did notice that I said nothing whatsoever about objectivity, didn't you?  Quite the contrary, my tastes, and I think all tastes, are purely subjective. 

But there is one objective fact here that will not change.  I do not blast my preferred music into public spaces, unlike some people with much different tastes.

[Bakari]

yes, let's talk about how the art jamesqf likes is objectively better than everything else again

But there is one objective fact here that will not change.  I do not blast my preferred music into public spaces, unlike some people with much different tastes.

I make a point to turn it down in residential neighborhoods, esp at night, or if I'm stopped in one place for a while.
And I only have 400watts - enough to hear me coming, but not enough to actually rattle windows or prevent conversation.

So, I kinda understand the appeal of bumpin, but I also understand that most of the people who do it are really obnoxious (and, most likely, deliberately so)

And in truth, being anti-social often is a part of the whole urban street culture.  And yet these kids (and plenty of activists) think the police are targeting based on race.  No, they are targeting you based on culture.  There's a difference.  One is voluntary.

[jordanread]

yes, let's talk about how the art jamesqf likes is objectively better than everything else again

But there is one objective fact here that will not change.  I do not blast my preferred music into public spaces, unlike some people with much different tastes.

I make a point to turn it down in residential neighborhoods, esp at night, or if I'm stopped in one place for a while.
And I only have 400watts - enough to hear me coming, but not enough to actually rattle windows or prevent conversation.

So, I kinda understand the appeal of bumpin, but I also understand that most of the people who do it are really obnoxious (and, most likely, deliberately so)

And in truth, being anti-social often is a part of the whole urban street culture.  And yet these kids (and plenty of activists) think the police are targeting based on race.  No, they are targeting you based on culture.  There's a difference.  One is voluntary.

Jamming out is fun, although I get better bass from my headphones. I'd jam out in the vehicles I have, but then I'd have to buy speakers. Nah.

[Bakari]

Jamming out is fun, although I get better bass from my headphones. I'd jam out in the vehicles I have, but then I'd have to buy speakers. Nah.

I got my powered sub for $200, back in 1998. 

[Jamesqf]

I make a point to turn it down in residential neighborhoods, esp at night, or if I'm stopped in one place for a while.

But that's you: others are not so courteous.  And what of those in non-residential neighborhoods?

And in truth, being anti-social often is a part of the whole urban street culture.

Yes, and the obnoxiousness of rap is an outgrowth of urban street culture; a symptom of the underlying disease, just as a weeping sore might be the symptom of a cancer.

[Threshkin]

I'd just like to know more about 30th century American literature.

It is really overrated.  How many variations of the Obedean philosophy can you hear before you get goat eyed?

[jscott2135]

To talk about any 1 from of music and paint it with the same brush immediately invalidates the argument imo.  Look at Macklemore.  Won  multiple Grammys this year, supports equal rights for the LGBT crowd in one of the most powerful rap songs to support gay marriage ever.  Is highly anti consumerism and very much positive, and encourages embracing your own uniqueness.  I love rap, I love the rhythm, I love Kanye Westside music even though I sometimes wish he himself would get hit by a fast moving vehicle.  Most positive rappers don't get much airtime.  And don't even get me started on international rap, which uses the style as a platform but is incredibly different and highly influenced by politics...it can be a loud mouthpiece for an entire generation or sect of individuals.  It has power and diversity that can be missed if you have only ever listened to what the mainstream plots in front of you...but like the news, if you really open your eyes and ears you will realize there is an entirely different side than most have seen.

[warfreak2]

Thread needs more nerd rap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXJxShm_vLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apICqy01jo4

Fixed.

[Heart of Tin]

Thread needs more nerd rap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXJxShm_vLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apICqy01jo4

Fixed.

One more (live! with piano accompaniment!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJZY-Czcp2E

[Bakari]

How about one which is itself a commentary on the content of mainstream rap music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bLFO4ZV0i4

(lyrics NSFW)

[smedleyb]

How about one which is itself a commentary on the content of mainstream rap music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bLFO4ZV0i4

(lyrics NSFW)

Or this:

http://youtu.be/EQ8ViYIeH04

[Jamesqf]

And don't even get me started on international rap, which uses the style as a platform but is incredibly different and highly influenced by politics...it can be a loud mouthpiece for an entire generation or sect of individuals.

Except that you have a large segment of the public which will not listen to the message - and in fact will go to great lengths to avoid hearing it - simply because it is rap, so it is basically just preaching to the choir.

[jscott2135]

And don't even get me started on international rap, which uses the style as a platform but is incredibly different and highly influenced by politics...it can be a loud mouthpiece for an entire generation or sect of individuals.

Except that you have a large segment of the public which will not listen to the message - and in fact will go to great lengths to avoid hearing it - simply because it is rap, so it is basically just preaching to the choir.

Word!  Rap is like the MMM of the music industry;)  ok just kidding...it's more.like the Rush Limbaugh, the people that listens to it are the ones that already agree with the message.

[Russ]

And don't even get me started on international rap, which uses the style as a platform but is incredibly different and highly influenced by politics...it can be a loud mouthpiece for an entire generation or sect of individuals.

Except that you have a large segment of the public which will not listen to the message - and in fact will go to great lengths to avoid hearing it - simply because it is rap, so it is basically just preaching to the choir.

so all rap has the same message now too? I'm learning so much today...

ITT: Folks telling us they don't listen to much rap and then telling us what it's all about.

[davisgang90]

If this doesn't make you like rap I don't know what will.  Brian Williams from NBC news rapping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YCeIgt7hMs

[warfreak2]

Except that you have a large segment of the public which will not listen to the message - and in fact will go to great lengths to avoid hearing it - simply because it is rap, so it is basically just preaching to the choir.

So the problem with rap is... people are prejudiced against it? That's a problem with prejudiced people, not with rap. Word.

[lithy]

How about one which is itself a commentary on the content of mainstream rap music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bLFO4ZV0i4

(lyrics NSFW)

Well if we are just going to post some music now.

How about Hand Me Downs from Soul Position

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfbGLdTVj_M

[rocksinmyhead]

Except that you have a large segment of the public which will not listen to the message - and in fact will go to great lengths to avoid hearing it - simply because it is rap, so it is basically just preaching to the choir.

So the problem with rap is... people are prejudiced against it? That's a problem with prejudiced people, not with rap. Word.

yeah, I'm probably not ever going to listen to Gregorian chants, because there are too many other kinds of music I personally would rather listen to and not enough time in the day. also, in my experience people who enjoy Gregorian chant music are, more often than not, obnoxious cultural elitists. so... Gregorian chant music is of low quality or worth?

(the first two statements, while true, do not actually imply that Gregorian chant music is of low quality. I'm just trying to apply Jamesqf's logic in the opposite direction)

[senecando]

lithy: I think I posted that in the original thread. So great, and the first thing that popped into my head when this all came up.

[hybrid]

Aside from all the other themes mentioned about rap, here is why I don't like it. The music, just from a musical standpoint, is sub-standard at best compared to its predecessors. Forget the racial component for just a moment, look at the structure of much of rap itself.

The vocals are often weak or nonexistent, and what about backup singers?
The instruments are often weak or nonexistent, strings, brass, and guitars have been replaced by a synthesizer.

Call me an old man, but when I listen to music produced by black culture then give me a band (an actual band) like Earth Wind and Fire any day of the week. I saw them last year and even in their 60s these guys still know how to put on a show. And what was in that show?

Actual instruments, including brass
A strong lead singer (Philip Bailey, you've still got it)
Backup singers
And of course some incredibly catchy beats and harmonies

When I compare this to thump-thump-thump, marginal or no singing ability, no backup singers, no instruments, then the choice to me is just plainly obvious. Rap to me is like fast food and Motown of old is like going to a nice restaurant. If you like fast food, all well and good, but please don't compare it substantively to what real "chefs" put into their music. Just like all food isn't created equally, all music isn't created equally either. Where I think folks get tripped up is that if you are white and cannot articulate exactly why rap music fails on so many levels musically it is entirely too easy to be labelled racist as a result. Because, naturally, there are some whites that don't like rap that are in fact racists, but that is just a subset of a greater whole that does not like rap music period.

The poetry in rap may be its best selling card, but come on folks, good lyrics are only one element of good music. Rap as a whole is just plain lazily slapped together compared to what came out before it.

I find the same phenomennon to be in true in modern rock as well, this dating back to the 1980s when the necessity of producing a cheesy video effectively put an end to the quality studio bands.  When I saw Steely Dan in concert several years ago there were eleven musicians on stage, only two were singers. There were two different pianos, a three person brass section, etc. This focus on complex music seems to have largely evaporated.   

[senecando]

Aside from all the other themes mentioned about rap, here is why I don't like it. The music, just from a musical standpoint, is sub-standard at best compared to its predecessors. Forget the racial component for just a moment, look at the structure of much of rap itself.

The vocals are often weak or nonexistent, and what about backup singers?
The instruments are often weak or nonexistent, strings, brass, and guitars have been replaced by a synthesizer.

You've made a very compelling case that it isn't rock music or soul from the 60's.

[rocksinmyhead]

The poetry in rap may be its best selling card, but come on folks, good lyrics are only one element of good music. Rap as a whole is just plain lazily slapped together compared to what came out before it.

I... feel like you aren't talking about the same kind of rap some of us are talking about. good lyrics (performed with talent), song structure, a great hook... none of the rap music I enjoy would I consider "lazily slapped together." there are plenty of rap artists who execute these components so well they give me chills.

and really, all of this means that YOU don't like rap, but not necessarily that it's an inferior genre. it's just DIFFERENT. I LOVE bluegrass, probably my favorite genre, but I don't think that any band lacking a banjo and a mandolin is automatically inferior.

I find the same phenomennon to be in true in modern rock as well, this dating back to the 1980s when the necessity of producing a cheesy video effectively put an end to the quality studio bands.  When I saw Steely Dan in concert several years ago there were eleven musicians on stage, only two were singers. There were two different pianos, a three person brass section, etc. This focus on complex music seems to have largely evaporated.   

on a related note (to my comment about you talking about a different kind of rap, above): what do you mean when you say "modern"? bands with a lot of people and a lot of instruments are actually back in a big way and making awesome music. New Pornographers, Typhoon, and Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes are three that come to mind right away. and Sufjan Stevens makes pretty complex music with an amazing variety of instruments, and he plays most of them himself.

no offense intended, but you do kind of sound like an old guy who assumes "modern music" isn't producing anything better than Rihanna :)

[senecando]

Also--I've now been listening to Steely Dan since you played it (I love them too!) and Hey Nineteen has some nasty ass synth up in there. Not to mention a Chorus about fancy tequila.

[hybrid]

Aside from all the other themes mentioned about rap, here is why I don't like it. The music, just from a musical standpoint, is sub-standard at best compared to its predecessors. Forget the racial component for just a moment, look at the structure of much of rap itself.

The vocals are often weak or nonexistent, and what about backup singers?
The instruments are often weak or nonexistent, strings, brass, and guitars have been replaced by a synthesizer.

You've made a very compelling case that it isn't rock music or soul from the 60's.

Or 70s, or early 80s. Indeed, that's exactly the point I'm making. A lot of folks I know (most, actually) in Generation X simply cannot stand rap (which was coming into its own while I was in high school) because we feel like our steak was replaced with a hamburger.

I think that it's only fair that if you criticize an art form you should contrast it to something better in it's place and articulate the differences. The Beatles are still going strong 50 years later. Most inconsequential white rock from the 90's is long forgotten. There are in fact reasons for this.

[senecando]

Hybrid: I don't think there is any replacement at all. There is still good modern soul. There is still good large-band complex arrangement stuff happening.

The form of your argument could be used just as well to dismiss rock music. Rock music doesn't have any of the rhythmic vocal complexities of rap. There is no phonetic dissonance and resolution. There is no word play. There are no interesting juxtapositions of music from different eras and places. All the music comes from the same place. There is no strong tradition of including other artists and other voices in your records. Rock music relies much more than rap on the lazy scales, chords and shapes that have been relied upon for 400 years.

[hybrid]

no offense intended, but you do kind of sound like an old guy who assumes "modern music" isn't producing anything better than Rihanna :)

None taken. My coworkers listen to modern "top 40" music all day, and I've been listening the past ten years waiting for it to get better, and to this reviewer (and many like me) it by and large just doesn't measure up. There are exceptions of course, but the rule seems to hold true. I am 47, The Beatles had already broken up while I was still watching Sesame Street. So it might be fair to argue I am merely lobbying for the music I grew up with, but the reality is I developed an appreciation for music from the 60s well after the fact. There is much music I did grow up with from the early 80s that I will freely I admit I like in part because I was younger at the time and identify it with my youth, but I'm not mentioning some of those wholly forgettable bands in my argument (yes Night Ranger, I'm talking to you....).

I could just as easily tear down music from within the 60s, 70, and early 80s that time forgot with good reason, but the topic is rap.

Regarding the comment about synthesizers, I love synthesizers. I just don't love it when an entire band is replaced by one. There are exceptions, but the rule in general holds.

Don't even get me started on sampling....