Let's talk about EV battery and solar panel recycling.

[EchoStache]

Let's assume that electrification is the answer for our energy needs moving forward, with the goal of sustainability and renewable energy.  As EV batteries end up numbering in the tens of millions and assuming solar panels head the same way, recycling at end of life will become increasingly important.  The massive battery capacity needed for grid level battery storage will be in effect as well.  Here is a quote from Tesla regarding their batteries:

"None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled. Lithium-ion battery packs should only be handled by qualified professionals at specifically designated facilities. The applicable rules and regulations for battery management vary by region and must always be followed."

https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling#:~:text=None%20of%20our%20scrapped%20lithium,and%20must%20always%20be%20followed.

However, I'm having trouble finding accurate statistics for the overall state of EV/PHEV/hybrid battery recycling outside of Tesla's statement.

Most of what I've read regarding solar panel recycling is that it is currently *possible*, is currently in place to a limited degree, but certainly not being done large scale.

Does legislation need to be enacted to ensure that these resources are manufactured with end of life in mind?

Here's one link I found that is somewhat helpful:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/beyond-recycling-reducing-waste-solar-modules-theyre-even-made

[RWD]

I recall this battery recycling video (Undecided with Matt Ferrell channel) from three years ago being pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w78-aSTIDY

[uniwelder]

Here's one link I found that is somewhat helpful:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/beyond-recycling-reducing-waste-solar-modules-theyre-even-made

I enjoyed that article, but I found it a little strange how the author focused on the lifespan of panels---- 20-30 years vs a 50 year panel, and the amount of waste that can be reduced.  In reality, most panels are taken out of service because higher efficiency (power output) panels are available, not because they've reached the end of their lifespan.  In just a few short years (maybe 10?), commonly available panels have gone from 15% to 22% efficiency, which is about a 50% increase.

As for recycling, I think a lot of those used panels get shipped to 3rd world countries or otherwise scrapped.  I believe there is about a $20/panel fee to have them recycled.  As the article states, making them easier to recycle would be a huge improvement.

[Gin1984]

Here's one link I found that is somewhat helpful:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/beyond-recycling-reducing-waste-solar-modules-theyre-even-made

I enjoyed that article, but I found it a little strange how the author focused on the lifespan of panels---- 20-30 years vs a 50 year panel, and the amount of waste that can be reduced.  In reality, most panels are taken out of service because higher efficiency (power output) panels are available, not because they've reached the end of their lifespan.  In just a few short years (maybe 10?), commonly available panels have gone from 15% to 22% efficiency, which is about a 50% increase.

As for recycling, I think a lot of those used panels get shipped to 3rd world countries or otherwise scrapped.  I believe there is about a $20/panel fee to have them recycled.  As the article states, making them easier to recycle would be a huge improvement.

Letting someone here that can't afford panels get them for a major discount would also work. 

[reeshau]

Re-use has a role, too.  "Old" automotive batteries still have 80% of their capacity, and are useful in grid power batteries.

https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-report/second-life-electric-vehicle-batteries-2023-2033/924

[EchoStache]

I can see a scenario where there is a huge used market for them...70% efficiency with degradation or something after decades, someone with a small roof wants to upgrade to panels that are now 25% vs degraded, but some with a huge roof and DIY can get them for a song.

Regardless, in the coming decades, there will be many millions of panels that will reach the end of their useful life.

I feel good about having installed solar last year....with a 25 year warranty I expect/hope these panels to last for a good 30-50 years.  But I'll feel even better when it becomes clear that recycling is in full swing and economically viable.

[reeshau]

My home has been hit with roof-damaging hail twice in a decade.  I have the sunshine for solar, but doubt the real service life would be anything approaching the warranty length.

[uniwelder]

I can see a scenario where there is a huge used market for them...70% efficiency with degradation or something after decades, someone with a small roof wants to upgrade to panels that are now 25% vs degraded, but some with a huge roof and DIY can get them for a song.

There already is a huge market.  There are warehouses full of old panels if you check FB Marketplace or Craigslist or sites like Santan Solar.  250 watt panels can be bought for about $20 each in bulk.  The problem is that it isn't usually economically feasible to install them on a roof in the US.  The cost of the panel is only a fraction of the total--- there's still mounting racks, inverter, wiring, permit, etc.  However, if you're in a country that doesn't have regulations, then you can lay them on top of a flat roof or on the ground, with a frame made of bamboo.  In the US, it would need to wind rated and an engineer needs to sign off on the design.

I've been debating whether to buy used panels or new whenever I finally install panels at my house.  In my case, I'm more limited by the space, so unless I find a really good deal on used 400 watt (300+ watt if they're practically free) panels, they'll probably be new.  I'll never collect on the 30% incentive since we don't really pay any federal tax, but for most people, that's a big incentive to go with new panels vs used, plus factory warranty.

[EchoStache]

I can see a scenario where there is a huge used market for them...70% efficiency with degradation or something after decades, someone with a small roof wants to upgrade to panels that are now 25% vs degraded, but some with a huge roof and DIY can get them for a song.

There already is a huge market.  There are warehouses full of old panels if you check FB Marketplace or Craigslist or sites like Santan Solar.  250 watt panels can be bought for about $20 each in bulk.  The problem is that it isn't usually economically feasible to install them on a roof in the US.  The cost of the panel is only a fraction of the total--- there's still mounting racks, inverter, wiring, permit, etc.  However, if you're in a country that doesn't have regulations, then you can lay them on top of a flat roof or on the ground, with a frame made of bamboo.  In the US, it would need to wind rated and an engineer needs to sign off on the design.

I've been debating whether to buy used panels or new whenever I finally install panels at my house.  In my case, I'm more limited by the space, so unless I find a really good deal on used 400 watt (300+ watt if they're practically free) panels, they'll probably be new.  I'll never collect on the 30% incentive since we don't really pay any federal tax, but for most people, that's a big incentive to go with new panels vs used, plus factory warranty.

Can you do a big ass Roth conversion to manufacture a tax bill?

[uniwelder]

I can see a scenario where there is a huge used market for them...70% efficiency with degradation or something after decades, someone with a small roof wants to upgrade to panels that are now 25% vs degraded, but some with a huge roof and DIY can get them for a song.

There already is a huge market.  There are warehouses full of old panels if you check FB Marketplace or Craigslist or sites like Santan Solar.  250 watt panels can be bought for about $20 each in bulk.  The problem is that it isn't usually economically feasible to install them on a roof in the US.  The cost of the panel is only a fraction of the total--- there's still mounting racks, inverter, wiring, permit, etc.  However, if you're in a country that doesn't have regulations, then you can lay them on top of a flat roof or on the ground, with a frame made of bamboo.  In the US, it would need to wind rated and an engineer needs to sign off on the design.

I've been debating whether to buy used panels or new whenever I finally install panels at my house.  In my case, I'm more limited by the space, so unless I find a really good deal on used 400 watt (300+ watt if they're practically free) panels, they'll probably be new.  I'll never collect on the 30% incentive since we don't really pay any federal tax, but for most people, that's a big incentive to go with new panels vs used, plus factory warranty.

Can you do a big ass Roth conversion to manufacture a tax bill?

I suppose I could, but I don’t know if there is much benefit. If I end up with new equipment, then sure, I’ll try to do conversions to get money back, but I don’t know if that is actually a financial gain for me. My preference would be to just pay less out of pocket initially.