Author Topic: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth  (Read 31542 times)

LonerMatt

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #100 on: November 21, 2017, 02:39:00 PM »
What makes you think I hold VTSAX?

What makes you think because I'm on the forum I'm necessarily a hypocrite?

Seems you're assuming a lot about my wealth, it's amount, it's allocation and my ambitions.

That seems remarkably unfair.

Feel free to share your "guilt free" portfolio.

It's a red herring argument mate, it was based on assumptions and it's a bad argument: because we (may) engage in investments that are imperfect that means that we are therefore hypocrites for criticising the state of wealth inequality. Doesn't add up, isn't fair and assumes a lot about what I/we want, believe and how we act.

Wealth inequality is increasing. That's not a good thing for society at all. The idea that poor people need the rich, or that rich people are aspirational role models isn't healthy or productive. The notion that poor people can just bring themselves out of poverty is really unfair and very much wrong. What makes these things worse is that they are a feedback loop: the greater the inequality the more difficult it becomes for people to change their position on the social ladder.

I know I've been incredibly snarky in this thread, and I don't apologise, a lot of what was written by others has been incredibly stupid and wasn't thought through.

Quote
Is it money that's the problem, or is it the system that allows one to buy favors?

They are inseparable. Wealth (in whatever form) has always bought increased power. I know a lot of people think Marx is full of it, but that's his main critique of society and his reasoning about why the average person is politically disempowered. Democracy in the USA, Australia and England is tied very much to capitalism, and they aren't the same, as long as our political systems allow them to be equal then we will have the wealthy controlling more of the political scene than they should. After all who owns the TV stations? The Newspapers? Who buys advertising? Who outspends governments to direct people's votes? It's not the layman, it's not even the MMM'ers with our globally enviable wealth. But it does happen and I think it's a huge problem.


SecretSquirrel

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #101 on: November 21, 2017, 04:37:07 PM »
Quote
Is it money that's the problem, or is it the system that allows one to buy favors?

They are inseparable. Wealth (in whatever form) has always bought increased power. I know a lot of people think Marx is full of it, but that's his main critique of society and his reasoning about why the average person is politically disempowered. Democracy in the USA, Australia and England is tied very much to capitalism, and they aren't the same, as long as our political systems allow them to be equal then we will have the wealthy controlling more of the political scene than they should. After all who owns the TV stations? The Newspapers? Who buys advertising? Who outspends governments to direct people's votes? It's not the layman, it's not even the MMM'ers with our globally enviable wealth. But it does happen and I think it's a huge problem.

Who is watching the TV stations, reading the newspapers, and clicking on the advertising? All these things are driven primarily by profit, and show the information that generates the most of it. How many people want to read quality well researched, well written political journalism, vs. heavily biased, low data information that we are mostly exposed to? If the public prefers dumbed down biased news, that's what they will get. Just like with everything else. Auto corporations are not secretly trying to destroy the environment by making giant inefficient cars, they are simply making what sells.

The true power of the wealthy lies in the fact that our government as it is today, exposes various levers the wealthy can pull to give themselves *legal* advantages. Need a lower tax for your industry? Need heavier regulations to create an unfair burden on smaller competitors? Want to trash an area because it is more profitable but need permission? Lobby the government. Give money to candidates. Etc.

You might look at it and go "well, the problem is that these people have so much money they can buy their way into government". I look at it and say "why does the government have these levers to begin with?".

If the government would not be involved in things that can be influenced with money, then money wouldn't influence them. For example, if the tax code for corporations included no deductions/credits/subsidies of any kind and simply had a rate of X%, how do you cheat that? If the government does not regulate your industry, how do you gain an unfair regulatory advantage? The more government you have, the more levers are exposed, the more they can be pulled by the wealthy. Go after the levers, not the money, if you are unhappy with the system.

Bicycle_B

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #102 on: November 21, 2017, 06:07:39 PM »
@ Index

The thing that bothers me is the interchanging of the terms "wealth" and "income". It isn't clear to me when I read or watch these that the author actually understands the difference, or maybe they do, but they fail to make it clear to the listener that there is a difference and explain that difference. I'm not sure most people understand the difference.

Hear, hear! 

At one point, the video narrator even says "how much they make" instead "how much they have" in reference to the 1%.  Disappointing. 

Seems like it feeds into the old Marxist belief that the bulk of income created by industry is siphoned off by the owners of capital.  The majority of income goes to labor, not capital.   I agree with the commenters who feel that poor people are still getting stiffed by the system, but mean or even median incomes wouldn't double or triple if All Those Rich People (including us forum members) shared more of our dividends.  It might increase labor's overall income by 15-20 percent.  I strongly agree that human health and welfare would be much better if the poorest got a disproportionate share of the benefit.  But the average worker would be helped more by the comfort of a decent safety net and the opportunity of widespread access to tools/education, not a by a large income change, even if the wider distribution of income from wealth were successfully spread out.

@ Index

I'm not sure most people understand the difference.

For most people, I think income is much more relevant, because most people's spending is based primarily on income instead of wealth.  Sure enough, according to graphs in the video, people's perception is much closer to the distribution of income than the distribution of wealth. 

LonerMatt

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #103 on: November 22, 2017, 01:41:22 AM »

Who is watching the TV stations, reading the newspapers, and clicking on the advertising? All these things are driven primarily by profit, and show the information that generates the most of it. How many people want to read quality well researched, well written political journalism, vs. heavily biased, low data information that we are mostly exposed to? If the public prefers dumbed down biased news, that's what they will get. Just like with everything else. Auto corporations are not secretly trying to destroy the environment by making giant inefficient cars, they are simply making what sells.

But that abdicates any responsibility that corporations or CEOs should have, and that's not OK with me. It's not as simple as saying 'people want what they want and corps don't change that' because new products change that, clever marketing changes that, influence changes that. Obviously people are more than blank receivers of company's sludge, yet at the same time there's a reason things like advertising, paid editorial content, etc, are effective in changing people's behaviour - because the population does not have a defined set of desires, their desires are open to flux, influence and change.

And if a company can change people's desires, than a company has a responsibility to be ethical with their intentions.

Quote
The true power of the wealthy lies in the fact that our government as it is today, exposes various levers the wealthy can pull to give themselves *legal* advantages. Need a lower tax for your industry? Need heavier regulations to create an unfair burden on smaller competitors? Want to trash an area because it is more profitable but need permission? Lobby the government. Give money to candidates. Etc.

I would agree that the government has a role in decoupling wealth and spending from the political process, but that doesn't invalidate my claim that wealth leads to increased power. In fact it supports that claim, you're just laying the blame somewhere else.

Quote
You might look at it and go "well, the problem is that these people have so much money they can buy their way into government". I look at it and say "why does the government have these levers to begin with?".

Good question, government and wealth are good bedfellows, definitely a two way street. So many 'ministers of planning' get cushy jobs in real estate development when they quit, so many businesses bribe individuals here and in the US - they are both at fault and wealth inequality opens this are of wrongdoing even further.

Quote
If the government would not be involved in things that can be influenced with money, then money wouldn't influence them. For example, if the tax code for corporations included no deductions/credits/subsidies of any kind and simply had a rate of X%, how do you cheat that? If the government does not regulate your industry, how do you gain an unfair regulatory advantage? The more government you have, the more levers are exposed, the more they can be pulled by the wealthy. Go after the levers, not the money, if you are unhappy with the system.

The government can't not be involved in money. A huge part of its role is the allocation of money, the funding of projects, the green-lighting of development, zoning, etc, etc, even things that aren't directly involving money changing hands still involve the accumulation or spending of money. Or both!

How do you gain unfair regulatory advantage? Who knows! But that's not what I'm talking about because it's too narrow, it's too specific, it's the trees and I'm talking about the forest. Setting aside government completely for a hypothetical wealth still leads to increased power, it's inevitable. Better health outcomes, better education, substantially better connections, less mental health problems, etc - these all accumulate daily to provide huge advantages for wealthy people of non-wealthy (working poor, below poverty line, whatever). Some degree of inequality is inevitable, but I'm uncomfortable with the growing gap between rich and poor, I don't think it bodes well because fewer people will be subject to these benefits of improved wealth like they were in the 20th century.

index

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #104 on: November 22, 2017, 11:29:42 AM »
@ Index

The thing that bothers me is the interchanging of the terms "wealth" and "income". It isn't clear to me when I read or watch these that the author actually understands the difference, or maybe they do, but they fail to make it clear to the listener that there is a difference and explain that difference. I'm not sure most people understand the difference.

Hear, hear! 

At one point, the video narrator even says "how much they make" instead "how much they have" in reference to the 1%.  Disappointing. 

Seems like it feeds into the old Marxist belief that the bulk of income created by industry is siphoned off by the owners of capital.  The majority of income goes to labor, not capital.   I agree with the commenters who feel that poor people are still getting stiffed by the system, but mean or even median incomes wouldn't double or triple if All Those Rich People (including us forum members) shared more of our dividends.  It might increase labor's overall income by 15-20 percent.  I strongly agree that human health and welfare would be much better if the poorest got a disproportionate share of the benefit.  But the average worker would be helped more by the comfort of a decent safety net and the opportunity of widespread access to tools/education, not a by a large income change, even if the wider distribution of income from wealth were successfully spread out.


@ Index

I'm not sure most people understand the difference.

For most people, I think income is much more relevant, because most people's spending is based primarily on income instead of wealth.  Sure enough, according to graphs in the video, people's perception is much closer to the distribution of income than the distribution of wealth.

I agree the author of the video was interchanged wealth with income a few times, but I don't think it was done to be purposely misleading. The video was focused on wealth inequality. In response to income, the video did state the top 1% take home nearly a quarter of the total income in the country. After googling, this appears to be accurate (somewhere a bit over 20%):

 

Lets break that into income then shall we? The national total personal income (TPI) was $15.9T in 2016.
  • The top .01% took home about 5% of that - about $800B. How many people are in the top 0.01%? .0001*350M is 35K, so they are taking in $22M per person
  • The 1 to 0.01% take home about 16% of the income - about $2.5T. There are about 3.5M in this bracket taking home $715k per person
  • The 90-99% take home about 26% of the TPI - about $4.1T. With 31.5M people in this bracket they take home $130k per person
  • The 50-90% take home 40% of the TPI - about $6.4T. There are 140M in this group the breakdown is $45k per person
  • The bottom 0-50% took home about 13% of all the income - about $2.1T. This split between 175M people; about $12K per person

This means the .01% income earner makes about 170x the average well to do MMM poster is bringing in (assumed 90-99%). This 0.01% earner makes 490x what the 50-90% "middle class" income earner makes. 

So in review. The wealth gap is jaw dropping, but dismissing the wealth gap and saying income is the only thing that really matters to most people:

For most people, I think income is much more relevant, because most people's spending is based primarily on income instead of wealth.  Sure enough, according to graphs in the video, people's perception is much closer to the distribution of income than the distribution of wealth.
   

Doesn't really settle the argument that the distribution of wages or wealth in this country are anywhere close to ideal.



WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2017, 11:41:54 AM »
Quote
Is it money that's the problem, or is it the system that allows one to buy favors?

They are inseparable. Wealth (in whatever form) has always bought increased power. I know a lot of people think Marx is full of it, but that's his main critique of society and his reasoning about why the average person is politically disempowered. Democracy in the USA, Australia and England is tied very much to capitalism, and they aren't the same, as long as our political systems allow them to be equal then we will have the wealthy controlling more of the political scene than they should. After all who owns the TV stations? The Newspapers? Who buys advertising? Who outspends governments to direct people's votes? It's not the layman, it's not even the MMM'ers with our globally enviable wealth. But it does happen and I think it's a huge problem.

Who is watching the TV stations, reading the newspapers, and clicking on the advertising? All these things are driven primarily by profit, and show the information that generates the most of it. How many people want to read quality well researched, well written political journalism, vs. heavily biased, low data information that we are mostly exposed to? If the public prefers dumbed down biased news, that's what they will get. Just like with everything else. Auto corporations are not secretly trying to destroy the environment by making giant inefficient cars, they are simply making what sells.

The true power of the wealthy lies in the fact that our government as it is today, exposes various levers the wealthy can pull to give themselves *legal* advantages. Need a lower tax for your industry? Need heavier regulations to create an unfair burden on smaller competitors? Want to trash an area because it is more profitable but need permission? Lobby the government. Give money to candidates. Etc.

You might look at it and go "well, the problem is that these people have so much money they can buy their way into government". I look at it and say "why does the government have these levers to begin with?".

If the government would not be involved in things that can be influenced with money, then money wouldn't influence them. For example, if the tax code for corporations included no deductions/credits/subsidies of any kind and simply had a rate of X%, how do you cheat that? If the government does not regulate your industry, how do you gain an unfair regulatory advantage? The more government you have, the more levers are exposed, the more they can be pulled by the wealthy. Go after the levers, not the money, if you are unhappy with the system.

Why does it matter so much what people want vs. what they need? A toddler wants to stick a fork in a power socket? Do we allow it because it's what she wants? Of course not. We step in and stop her from hurting herself and redirect her to what she actually needs.

This is how it has to be with most people. Lots and lots of people don't know what is best for them, so they need to be regulated so they won't be self-destructive.

Want people to invest for retirement? Make retirement savings automatic out of their paychecks so it's taken care of.

Want people to stop polluting our air so you won't have to deal with ozone days from all the pickup trucks on the road? (A major annoyance of mine.) Force auto manufacturers to follow CAFE.

It's all very simple. You have to save people from themselves, because in the long run it saves all of us.

LonerMatt

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2017, 12:05:05 PM »
I don't think that trusting a corporation that doesn't love me and doesn't care about me to lead me to save myself is very wise, frankly.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2017, 12:18:53 PM »
I don't think that trusting a corporation that doesn't love me and doesn't care about me to lead me to save myself is very wise, frankly.

You should own the corporation. Then you'd feel better about it, probably.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2017, 12:53:33 PM »
  • The top .01% took home about 5% of that - about $800B. How many people are in the top 0.01%? .0001*350M is 35K, so they are taking in $22M per person
I think there is something wrong with your numbers:http://247wallst.com/investing/2011/10/21/two-thousand-americans-made-over-10-million-last-year/

LonerMatt

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #109 on: November 22, 2017, 01:33:34 PM »
I don't think that trusting a corporation that doesn't love me and doesn't care about me to lead me to save myself is very wise, frankly.

You should own the corporation. Then you'd feel better about it, probably.

That's not in the cards my friend.

partgypsy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #110 on: November 22, 2017, 01:35:16 PM »
I really think the Citizen's United case was a bad decision on the part of the Supreme Court. Corporations and rich citizens already have an undue influence on the legislation that is put forth and passed. Having corporations be considered citizens puts past any pretense who is running the show. Yes they don't get votes. But they can influence legislation to weaken and defund public and upper education so that people are less educated and able to inform themselves, push legislation to eliminate net neutrality, and eliminate the fairness doctrine for news, and transfer the costs of pollution from the corporation to the communities. North Carolina passed a law that we as citizens, are not allowed to even know what the fracking companies are injecting into the ground. Corporations don't care about Americans as citizens with rights. Their priority is boosting short term profits and encourage consumerism. It's pretty grotesque. 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 01:38:28 PM by partgypsy »

simonsez

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #111 on: November 22, 2017, 02:44:09 PM »
  • The top .01% took home about 5% of that - about $800B. How many people are in the top 0.01%? .0001*350M is 35K, so they are taking in $22M per person
I think there is something wrong with your numbers:http://247wallst.com/investing/2011/10/21/two-thousand-americans-made-over-10-million-last-year/
This is a good exercise with regard to income inequality and why average compared to median can be very misleading when dealing with $ figures.  It's virtually always severely right-tailed when you include the high end be it the top quintile, percentile, .01%, .0001%, whatever.

It would be quite feasible that the vast majority of the top .01% make less than 10 million while the average of that group is still 22 million due to some making hundreds of millions or billions.

350 mil is a little bit on the high side for rounding but at a national population of 325, 326 mil the point still stands.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #112 on: November 24, 2017, 09:18:14 AM »
I think a large portion of the Millennial generation would have an easier time generating their own wealth if they would stop donating to Twitch streamers and invested the money instead. I'm from Generation X, though, so I probably just don't comprehend the importance of paying people so you can watch them play video games.

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #113 on: November 24, 2017, 09:35:35 AM »
I probably just don't comprehend the importance of paying people so you can watch them play video games.

If it helps any, consider that you probably have no problem paying people so you can watch them cosplay comic book characters.  And that's not even a live performance, you're literally paying to watch a recording.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #114 on: November 24, 2017, 09:44:40 AM »
I probably just don't comprehend the importance of paying people so you can watch them play video games.

If it helps any, consider that you probably have no problem paying people so you can watch them cosplay comic book characters.  And that's not even a live performance, you're literally paying to watch a recording.

That's a performance with a script and storytelling and a budget of $150 million for special effects. It's not the same as what we tried to avoid when I was a child, which was being stuck for hours watching your older brother play Super Mario while you endlessly had to wait for your turn. It's stupid to pay people to watch them play video games. Fact.

GuitarStv

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #115 on: November 24, 2017, 09:50:57 AM »
I probably just don't comprehend the importance of paying people so you can watch them play video games.

If it helps any, consider that you probably have no problem paying people so you can watch them cosplay comic book characters.  And that's not even a live performance, you're literally paying to watch a recording.

That's a performance with a script and storytelling and a budget of $150 million for special effects. It's not the same as what we tried to avoid when I was a child, which was being stuck for hours watching your older brother play Super Mario while you endlessly had to wait for your turn. It's stupid to pay people to watch them play video games. Fact.

I kinda put in on par with watching a professional sporting event to be honest.  Both activities are objectively better in every way when you do them yourself . . . but for some reason there is a subset of the population who likes watching someone else play a game.

AlanStache

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #116 on: November 24, 2017, 09:56:29 AM »
I probably just don't comprehend the importance of paying people so you can watch them play video games.

If it helps any, consider that you probably have no problem paying people so you can watch them cosplay comic book characters.  And that's not even a live performance, you're literally paying to watch a recording.

That's a performance with a script and storytelling and a budget of $150 million for special effects. It's not the same as what we tried to avoid when I was a child, which was being stuck for hours watching your older brother play Super Mario while you endlessly had to wait for your turn. It's stupid to pay people to watch them play video games. Fact.

If your brother could do a Super Mario speed run in under five minute he could probably get people to pay to watch him.  Kind of like it would be dumb to pay to watch a guy run a 15sec 100meter sprint but lots of people pay to watch Bolt do it under 10 sec.  Is it also dumb to have professional Chess, Bridge and Football players?  It may not be my thing but I can see how others might like it and be willing to pay for it. 

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #117 on: November 24, 2017, 10:06:38 AM »
That's a performance with a script and storytelling and a budget of $150 million for special effects.
 

You don't think video games have multimillion dollar budgets?  GTA V reported over 250 million dollars in production costs.  That game made over $3 billion for the studio.  No movie has ever made that much money, not Avatar or Titanic or Star Wars or anything.  I think you might fundamentally misunderstand the video game industry.

I've never used twitch myself, but my understanding is that it is a free streaming service supported by ads, and viewers can pay to watch without ads (with some portion of the purchase going to the streamer).  So you're not really paying to watch someone play video games, anymore than you're paying to watch cat videos if you buy youtube red (don't).  Maybe someone more familiar with it can chime in.

I kinda put in on par with watching a professional sporting event to be honest.  Both activities are objectively better in every way when you do them yourself . . . but for some reason there is a subset of the population who likes watching someone else play a game.

I've paid to watch people play an instrument.  It is also objectively better when done yourself, and yet virtually everyone understands the appeal of watching a musical performance.  In fact, people are even more likely to pay to watch someone play an instrument if it's an instrument that they CAN play themselves.

In either case, music or movies or video games, the amount of money that an individual is willing to pay to experience the best version of that thing is probably higher than they would pay to watch their brother do it, or even do it themselves.  I don't think it's really that big of a mystery.  I can sing, but I'm no Axl Rose.  I can run, but I'm no Usain Bolt.  People probably aren't interested in paying to watch me do those things, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense that somebody gets paid to do them.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 10:08:54 AM by sol »

index

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #118 on: November 24, 2017, 10:08:42 AM »
I probably just don't comprehend the importance of paying people so you can watch them play video games.

If it helps any, consider that you probably have no problem paying people so you can watch them cosplay comic book characters.  And that's not even a live performance, you're literally paying to watch a recording.

That's a performance with a script and storytelling and a budget of $150 million for special effects. It's not the same as what we tried to avoid when I was a child, which was being stuck for hours watching your older brother play Super Mario while you endlessly had to wait for your turn. It's stupid to pay people to watch them play video games. Fact.

If your brother could do a Super Mario speed run in under five minute he could probably get people to pay to watch him.  Kind of like it would be dumb to pay to watch a guy run a 15sec 100meter sprint but lots of people pay to watch Bolt do it under 10 sec.  Is it also dumb to have professional Chess, Bridge and Football players?  It may not be my thing but I can see how others might like it and be willing to pay for it.

Probably not the reason for wealth disparity...

Sol,

I was in the depths of the internet last night and saw this picture:



I've always wondered where your profile pic came from...

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #119 on: November 24, 2017, 10:11:05 AM »
I've always wondered where your profile pic came from...

Somewhere, deep in this forum, is my post about those guys and the photographer who took that picture.  Short version: they're mentally handicapped brothers from South Africa, who are now quite elderly.

Debts_of_Despair

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #120 on: November 24, 2017, 10:14:01 AM »

Debts_of_Despair

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #121 on: November 24, 2017, 10:18:57 AM »
Why aren't those concerned with the wealth disparity donating their stache until they are at the worldwide median wealth level?  As mentioned before this forum is made up of mostly 5 percenters.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #122 on: November 24, 2017, 10:46:44 AM »
Is it also dumb to have professional Chess, Bridge and Football players?

In all honesty, YES, it is dumb. In this country, we really need to change things around and do more things for ourselves instead of passively watching other people. I appreciate theatre as much as the next person -- and theatre has existed for thousands and thousands of years as a form of entertainment -- but the sedentary lifestyle where we sit around all day and watch other people use their brains or other people exercise or other people play games, instead of doing things for ourselves is absolutely self-destructive.

I stopped watching sports a long time ago, because honestly what difference does it make? Why should I give up my hard-earned money to watch someone else have fun playing playground games and then gossip about how much money they have or who they are dating or how big their house is? Keep that money for yourself and put it toward your own empowerment. Stop complaining about 1 percenters and BECOME a 1 percenter.

That's my opinion, anyway.

index

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #123 on: November 24, 2017, 11:15:57 AM »
The national total personal income (TPI) was $15.9T in 2016.
  • The top .01% took home about 5% of that - about $800B. How many people are in the top 0.01%? .0001*350M is 35K, so they are taking in $22M per person
  • The 1 to 0.01% take home about 16% of the income - about $2.5T. There are about 3.5M in this bracket taking home $715k per person
  • The 90-99% take home about 26% of the TPI - about $4.1T. With 31.5M people in this bracket they take home $130k per person
  • The 50-90% take home 40% of the TPI - about $6.4T. There are 140M in this group the breakdown is $45k per person
  • The bottom 0-50% took home about 13% of all the income - about $2.1T. This split between 175M people; about $12K per person

  • The top .01% took home about 5% of that - about $800B. How many people are in the top 0.01%? .0001*350M is 35K, so they are taking in $22M per person
I think there is something wrong with your numbers:http://247wallst.com/investing/2011/10/21/two-thousand-americans-made-over-10-million-last-year/
This is a good exercise with regard to income inequality and why average compared to median can be very misleading when dealing with $ figures.  It's virtually always severely right-tailed when you include the high end be it the top quintile, percentile, .01%, .0001%, whatever.

It would be quite feasible that the vast majority of the top .01% make less than 10 million while the average of that group is still 22 million due to some making hundreds of millions or billions.

350 mil is a little bit on the high side for rounding but at a national population of 325, 326 mil the point still stands.

The exact dollar amount per person in immaterial. The number of people in each group is just the denominator, but the disparity exists no matter how you slice it:

I.E: the 99-99.99% is 99x (.99/.01) the size of the 0.01% but brings home only 3x income meaning the income gap between the 99%-99.99% and the .01% is 32X (.99/.01*0.8T/2.5T)

The income disparity is enormous if we think about it like this:

Top 0.01% compared to:

  • 99-99.99 - 32x
  • 90-99 - 175x
  • 50-90 - 500x
  • 0-50 - 1905x

Top 1% compared to:

  • 90-99 - 7.25x
  • 50-90 - 20x
  • 0-50 - 78x

I think when most people here use income of people they are exposed to when thinking about wealth inequality. The top 10% for households make about 300k per year. When using this as a reference point I think the numbers become much closer to our perception.

Top 10% compared to:

  • 50-90 - 4.6x
  • 0-50 - 17.6x

The 0.01% of this country, 32k people by population, on average make in 2 days what the typical high paid professional in the 90-99% makes in 1 year. That is pretty astounding!

To take it a step further - the 0.01% want to be taxed at the same rate as the 90-99%
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 11:18:19 AM by index »

GuitarStv

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #124 on: November 24, 2017, 11:28:40 AM »
I've paid to watch people play an instrument.  It is also objectively better when done yourself, and yet virtually everyone understands the appeal of watching a musical performance.  In fact, people are even more likely to pay to watch someone play an instrument if it's an instrument that they CAN play themselves.

Do you pay to watch them play, or to hear the music that they make?

I suspect that for most it's the latter.  If you can't make the music that they make, then there's a real reason to pay to hear them play.  If on the other hand, you pay to watch their fingers move up and down the instruments . . . then I guess you would probably enjoy watching a sports game too.  :P

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #125 on: November 24, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »
Do you pay to watch them play, or to hear the music that they make?

Well both, obviously.  I have paid to buy recorded music, and I have paid to attend live performances.  Is it really so hard to understand why you might want to watch the world's best musician perform in person, instead of just listening to a recording?

AlanStache

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #126 on: November 24, 2017, 11:48:42 AM »
I've paid to watch people play an instrument.  It is also objectively better when done yourself, and yet virtually everyone understands the appeal of watching a musical performance.  In fact, people are even more likely to pay to watch someone play an instrument if it's an instrument that they CAN play themselves.

Do you pay to watch them play, or to hear the music that they make?

I suspect that for most it's the latter.  If you can't make the music that they make, then there's a real reason to pay to hear them play.  If on the other hand, you pay to watch their fingers move up and down the instruments . . . then I guess you would probably enjoy watching a sports game too.  :P

I dont think it is just about fingers or sounds but rather generally entertainment and a shared experience with those around you.
You can get the basic sounds and visual from youtube but that is commonly not as entertaining as a live show (YMMV - but I think most would agree that a live show can be better than youtube).

Bicycle_B

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #127 on: November 24, 2017, 12:10:54 PM »
Article in NY Times caught me off guard by claiming much of the cause of income inequality in the US is more regulation  than "socialistic" countries like Canada - but that the regulations benefit groups of professionals such as financial managers, even though financial managers usually complain about the regulations.  Presumably drives some of the wealth inequality.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/upshot/income-inequality-united-states.html

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #128 on: November 24, 2017, 02:04:06 PM »
Article in NY Times caught me off guard by claiming much of the cause of income inequality in the US is more regulation

I didn't find that argument surprising at all.  We've had that exact same conversation in the ACA threads about how the giant moat around medical practitioners artificially inflates their salaries, and the cost of care, by excluding cheaper alternatives.  Engineers need to get a PE license.  Stockbrokers need to be licensed.  Even tradesmen like electricians and plumbers need to go through an apprenticeship program and be certified.  All of these regulations are designed to increase the cost of services, and thus the wages of their practitioners. 

GuitarStv

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #129 on: November 24, 2017, 02:28:12 PM »
Article in NY Times caught me off guard by claiming much of the cause of income inequality in the US is more regulation

I didn't find that argument surprising at all.  We've had that exact same conversation in the ACA threads about how the giant moat around medical practitioners artificially inflates their salaries, and the cost of care, by excluding cheaper alternatives.  Engineers need to get a PE license.  Stockbrokers need to be licensed.  Even tradesmen like electricians and plumbers need to go through an apprenticeship program and be certified.  All of these regulations are designed to increase the cost of services, and thus the wages of their practitioners.

While the net effect of licensing for a profession may increase the costs of services, that isn't the reason that we have licencing.  There's significant public risk in allowing anyone to call themselves a structural engineer and build a 60 story office building.  There is valid reason to certify doctors and nurses too.  It's an attempt to increase public safety by ensuring that at least a certain minimum required level of training has taken place.  That's a very important and beneficial reason to have certification.

You can certainly make the argument that in many cases things have gone beyond the needs of public safety though.

sol

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #130 on: November 24, 2017, 02:32:25 PM »
While the net effect of licensing for a profession may increase the costs of services, that isn't the reason that we have licencing.  There's significant public risk

I'm not saying we shouldn't have licensing.  I'm saying the licensing agencies shouldn't artificially restrict the number of people who get licenses.  The barriers to entry, in many of these fields (including mine), are much higher than they need to be.  That's done to keep the supply low, and the costs high.

Why don't we let doctors from other countries practice medicine in America, for example?  Because the massive influx of foreign talent would dramatically deflate physician salaries, that's why.  It's the same with basically every other field.

LonerMatt

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #131 on: November 24, 2017, 03:56:05 PM »
Why aren't those concerned with the wealth disparity donating their stache until they are at the worldwide median wealth level?  As mentioned before this forum is made up of mostly 5 percenters.

How does that action address the critique we've made?

anisotropy

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #132 on: November 24, 2017, 05:37:48 PM »
While the net effect of licensing for a profession may increase the costs of services, that isn't the reason that we have licencing.  There's significant public risk

I'm not saying we shouldn't have licensing.  I'm saying the licensing agencies shouldn't artificially restrict the number of people who get licenses.  The barriers to entry, in many of these fields (including mine), are much higher than they need to be.  That's done to keep the supply low, and the costs high.

Why don't we let doctors from other countries practice medicine in America, for example?  Because the massive influx of foreign talent would dramatically deflate physician salaries, that's why.  It's the same with basically every other field.

I agree with Sol 100%. Both of my "careers" required licenses to pretty much keep competition out. The licensing body for my second career, apega, does nothing except collecting dues. Ya you can argue that being a geo or pe require certain technical competence and good ethics but really it's just common sense. The funny thing is that you see tons of people proud/happy to finally get the p.geo or p.engg designation and treat it as if its something special.

We have machines (algo) that make consistently more accurate diagnose on a huge variety of diseases than trained doctors; we've known these algo are better than doctors since the 80s, yet the society continues to rely on people to do the work. If it is science-based, it can be automated, and it should be automated to reduce errors.

Anyway, I will admit I "collect" titles, designations and degrees because I am vain. And that's pretty much what these licenses are good for, vanity.

edit: As YN pointed out, odds are EVERYONE here belongs to the global 1%, so congratz. Now, what are we going to do with the other pesky 99%?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 08:39:52 PM by anisotropy »

Jrr85

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #133 on: January 07, 2018, 07:54:24 AM »
I really think the Citizen's United case was a bad decision on the part of the Supreme Court. Corporations and rich citizens already have an undue influence on the legislation that is put forth and passed. Having corporations be considered citizens puts past any pretense who is running the show. Yes they don't get votes. But they can influence legislation to weaken and defund public and upper education so that people are less educated and able to inform themselves, push legislation to eliminate net neutrality, and eliminate the fairness doctrine for news, and transfer the costs of pollution from the corporation to the communities. North Carolina passed a law that we as citizens, are not allowed to even know what the fracking companies are injecting into the ground. Corporations don't care about Americans as citizens with rights. Their priority is boosting short term profits and encourage consumerism. It's pretty grotesque.
citizens united does not consider corporations to be citizens. All it states is that people do not lose their free speech rights simply because they join together with other people to exercise those rights.  If anything, citizen united does a little bit to even the playing field, as non-super rochvoeople can pool resources to engage in advocacy.

Retire-Canada

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2018, 09:37:45 AM »
I agree with Sol 100%. Both of my "careers" required licenses to pretty much keep competition out. The licensing body for my second career, apega, does nothing except collecting dues. Ya you can argue that being a geo or pe require certain technical competence and good ethics but really it's just common sense. The funny thing is that you see tons of people proud/happy to finally get the p.geo or p.engg designation and treat it as if its something special.

Huh? That's a new one. APEGA member here. They are a PITA to deal with and I think they could do a better job of allowing international folks to practice engineering and geo science, but I am sure as heck glad that not anyone who can turn on a computer is allowed to approve the design of a bridge or decide if the soil conditions are suitable for a dam to be constructed in a particular spot just because they have a load of common sense and are ethical people.

I had a friend from Europe with a bit of an odd ball engineering degree who applied to APEGA to get licensed. The process they laid out for her was more of a hassle/effort than I thought was justified, but it wasn't ridiculous.

In terms of people from Canada/US who want to practice getting a P.Eng is just a formality. Holding a P.Eng. is not a big deal getting an engineering degree is a big deal.

MauiNut

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2018, 09:53:14 AM »
LBYM.  Live Below Your Means.  Well below.  Invest on a regular basis.  Pay no attention to the daily fluctuations in the stock market.  This is a long-term marathon, not a 100 yard dash, for most of us.

Davids

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #136 on: January 07, 2018, 10:18:30 AM »
Many of us here may not realize it but we are probably among the richest 1% in the WORLD. What does it take to be among the richest 1% in the world? With over 7 billion people you are talking about being one of the richest 70 million people in the world. What does your net worth have to be to crack the top 70 million?

Retire-Canada

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #137 on: January 07, 2018, 10:46:53 AM »
Many of us here may not realize it but we are probably among the richest 1% in the WORLD. What does it take to be among the richest 1% in the world? With over 7 billion people you are talking about being one of the richest 70 million people in the world. What does your net worth have to be to crack the top 70 million?

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

By income 1% = 30,250 Euros = ~$36,400USD
By wealth 1% = 720,000 Euros = ~$866,200USD

YttriumNitrate

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #138 on: January 07, 2018, 03:34:32 PM »
This thread is interesting when compared to the other recent thread where people disclose how much their net worth increased in 2017. Mustachians having increases far in excess of 100x the median annual Liberian household income were quite common.



WhiteTrashCash

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #139 on: January 07, 2018, 07:50:20 PM »
Many of us here may not realize it but we are probably among the richest 1% in the WORLD. What does it take to be among the richest 1% in the world? With over 7 billion people you are talking about being one of the richest 70 million people in the world. What does your net worth have to be to crack the top 70 million?

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

By income 1% = 30,250 Euros = ~$36,400USD
By wealth 1% = 720,000 Euros = ~$866,200USD

I'm a one percenter by income! Hooray!

All those Liberians should stop buying Starbucks and Avocado Toast.

davisgang90

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2018, 04:05:55 PM »

VoteCthulu

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2018, 10:59:24 AM »
Many of us here may not realize it but we are probably among the richest 1% in the WORLD. What does it take to be among the richest 1% in the world? With over 7 billion people you are talking about being one of the richest 70 million people in the world. What does your net worth have to be to crack the top 70 million?

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

By income 1% = 30,250 Euros = ~$36,400USD
By wealth 1% = 720,000 Euros = ~$866,200USD
It's interesting that I'm currently a 1%er by income, and about the time I'll become a 1%er by wealth I'll stop being one by income.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 04:31:19 PM by VoteCthulu »

Davnasty

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Re: 1 percenters own HALF of the world's wealth
« Reply #142 on: January 10, 2018, 02:21:32 PM »
Many of us here may not realize it but we are probably among the richest 1% in the WORLD. What does it take to be among the richest 1% in the world? With over 7 billion people you are talking about being one of the richest 70 million people in the world. What does your net worth have to be to crack the top 70 million?
Anyone who has read through this thread certainly realizes this by now, it's only been repeated about 17,000 times.

We've also discussed in detail how little this means when it comes to the argument that wealth disparity=bad. The top .01% or less is the problem. In an admittedly oversimplified way I think the new tax bill is a direct result of this. Low to upper middle class earners got a slight cut (just enough to get votes for republicans from the largest demographic) professionals earning $200,000-$500,000 got a slight increase (again to satisfy lower income folks who disparage this group as the "rich people") and outside of that most of the advantage went to the .01%*.

*not an exact figure